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Topic: Good Friday? Or what?
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BORN AGAIN
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I'm serious but let me add this. a loaded baggage-camel does 2-1/2 miles per hour, while the Arab camel driver walks.
a donkey with only a rider can do 5 miles per hour on average.
the problem with a baggage-camel is that it has a very odd gait for persons unaccustomed to it, where either the front or rear foot hits the ground a 1/4 second later and causes a jar to the unaccustomed rider.
however, there are trained riding camels, called by various names, one of which is "hygeen" and these can run over uneven ground at great speed, and are so smooth that one can drink a cup of tea on them, like a tempur-pedic mattress, while moving along at breakneck speed.
I'm not sure off-hand how fast the hygeen can go; I'm at work.
BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I would have never dreamed that a donkey would be faster than a camel! Are you beng serious? Is that the truth BA or are you teasing? That is very interesting.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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a loaded baggage-camel could average 2-1/2 miles per hour. A donkey averaged 5 miles per hour.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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A Day's journey was 16-20 miles. A sabbath day's journey was 2000 cubits or about 3/4 of a mile. Some say less... 1/2 mile. Bethphage was known as the limit of the Sabbath day's journey from Jerusalem.. it was close to Bethany.. but Bethany was about a little over 1 and 3/4 miles from Jerusalem.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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Hi WhiteEagle, Thats why Yeshua called them hypocrites. It was not Gods laws from the Torah that Yeshua was against, but that the Scribes, Pharisess and Saducees built fenses around Gods laws, adding to and taking away.
Heres an example
Matt 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law; justice and mercy and Faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
verse 28 "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness(lawlessness as meaning they broke the laws in the Torah)
In Matt 23:3 Jesus tells the multitudes and His disciples this:
"Therefore whatever they (Pharisees, Scribes)tell you to observe, that observe and do, BUT do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
The Pharisees were the authoritative teachers of the Mosaic Law even though they failed to follow their own precepts. Much of their teaching was sound, but Jesus confronts those points in which their hypocrisy neutralized the validity of their instruction.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Unleavened bread is 7 days and is from the fifteenth of Abib to the 21st. Passover is Passover and it is the 14th of abib. They are separate, but in the Days of Jesus' earthly ministry the Pharisee were not following the Bible. Did you see my wedAbib14 link above White Eagle?
Yes, I appreciated that you brought that feature out (regarding the issue that the Pharisees were not adhering to Exodus 12.) Of course that is what contributes to my confusion. They even broke the High Holy Day to see Pilate and demand that a watch be kept on the tomb.
Interesting study. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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Linda,
I'd have to really study these graph more, but I see some assumptions and things I would need more information about. Such as what was the length allowed for a Sabbath day travel? I am assuming that Jesus could have walked 17 miles in one day if he was not constrained by Sabbath law or tradition.
Mary could have still served Jesus a meal on Saturday evening and 6 evenings later would be Passover and that would place Passover on a Thursday evening when He had the Last Supper into Friday when He was crucified.
I know a Jewish family that always celebrated the Shabbat meal on Friday evenings when Sabbath starts.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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WhiteEagle, yes, you're right, by New Testament times the entire Pasasover/Feast of Unleavened Bread had come to be called "the feast" or "Unleavened Bread". But as Jesus might have said, "in the beginning it was not so", and mixing Passover together with the Feast of Unleavened Bread shows the laziness and carelessness and profaneness of the people by the 1st century.
Passover=Abib 14
Feast of Unleavened Bread=starts on Abib 15
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Unleavened bread is 7 days and is from the fifteenth of Abib to the 21st. Passover is Passover and it is the 14th of abib. They are separate, but in the Days of Jesus' earthly ministry the Pharisee were not following the Bible. Did you see my wedAbib14 link above White Eagle?
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
dear sister WhiteEagle, I love you. You write quote:
This year that Christ was crucified the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread which was the High holy day, happened to fall on Sabbath day. Both were on the same day.
No sweetie, it was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Abib 14 or Nisan 14 was Passover day, which was NOT a sabbath.
Abib 15 or Nisan 15 was the first day of Unleavened Bread, which WAS a day of HOLY CONGREGATION and A SABBATH.
The Lord God Jeshua-Jesus would have died on Abib 14 Passover morning/afternoon at 3 p.m., on our Friday at 3 p.m.
Then at sunset on Friday began the regular weekley sabbath which also was the first day of Unleavened Bread (not the second day, sister) and that was a high day.
I just wanted to clarify that, and I wanted to thank you for your affirmation. Friends in the Family of God are such a blessing.
Not to keep this going, but.... In scripture it says that Jesus ate the Passover on the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread, and the Jews called the Passover Day the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread, as even though it wasn't technically the 1st official day of Unleavened Bread, it was the first day they were supposed to start the fast of leaven ie on the Passover.
So by Exodus 12 the sequence is Passover day, then the 7 days of Unleavened Bread= 8days total.
But in the New Testament and even today the the Jews call Passover Day the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread, and that's why it's so confusing to us.
But you are right, Passover Day is not the High Holy Day, it is the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread, I was getting confused again, since scripture says several times that Jesus ate Passover on the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread.
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wparr
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We won't agree on what particular day and year that Yahshua was sacrificed on, but that it WAS on Passover is indisputable.
So let’s get to what’s MORE important.
This year (a unique year) Passover falls on Wednesday April 12
good Friday is April 14.
Will you worship in spirit and in truth, according to the appointed time that Yahweh gave His Children?
Exodus 12:14
Now this day will be a memorial to you, and you shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations you are to celebrate it as a permanent ordinance.
Celebrating Passover which is a type and shadow of Yahshua being sacrificed for our sins?
Yahshua, The Lamb of God
John 1:29
The next day he saw Yahshua coming to him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
The Messiah, our Passover
1 Corinthians 5:7
Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Messiah our Passover also has been sacrificed.
Or will you keep a man made celebration, which has replaced God’s appointed day?
Mark 7:8-9
Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.
He was also saying to them, you are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
Mark 7:13
thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.
Which makes the Word of God of no effect?
Whom shall you follow
Yahweh or God?
Or man?
Isn’t this what’s R E A L L Y Important?
Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh."
I say: “But as for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh”
What say you???
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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BORN AGAIN
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dear sister WhiteEagle, I love you. You write quote:
This year that Christ was crucified the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread which was the High holy day, happened to fall on Sabbath day. Both were on the same day.
No sweetie, it was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Abib 14 or Nisan 14 was Passover day, which was NOT a sabbath.
Abib 15 or Nisan 15 was the first day of Unleavened Bread, which WAS a day of HOLY CONGREGATION and A SABBATH.
The Lord God Jeshua-Jesus would have died on Abib 14 Passover morning/afternoon at 3 p.m., on our Friday at 3 p.m.
Then at sunset on Friday began the regular weekley sabbath which also was the first day of Unleavened Bread (not the second day, sister) and that was a high day.
I just wanted to clarify that, and I wanted to thank you for your affirmation. Friends in the Family of God are such a blessing.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear bornagain Christian sister WhiteEagle, you wrote with the help of the Holy Spirit quote:
wparr:
In John 4:7-30. vs 23,24 "...true worshippers shall worship God in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
This is the story of the Samaritan woman and she informed Jesus she didn't have a husband. He told her she spoke well. He told her she had had 5 husbands, and the one she was with now still wasn't her husband. Jesus said she spoke truth.
I have gone back to the books of the Torah and could find no law concerning unmarried people shacking up, (I'm sure there is one somewhere I just couldn't find it) All the laws against fornication or adultry had to do with betrothed and married people. The closest thing I could find was in Exodus 22:16,17 " and if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins."
So Indeed this Samaritan word did speak well. Evidently no man did his duty to claim her as wife. During this time period, women did not have the say about marriage. This woman was looking for love in all the wrong places.
She wasn't a virgin, and what man would have wanted to make the virgin dowry price?
Society had dealth this woman a cruel blow, as she was used goods, and men didn't have to treat her with any respect.
Yet, Jesus tells her "you've had 5 husbands."
Now if Jesus considered these former men "husbands" to her, she was under the penalty of Mosaic law and could have been stoned along with all those men.
Why doesn't Jesus bring this up?
All He talks about is Spirit and Truth.
I liked this post, sister WhiteEagle. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
May the LORD God of Israel send a congregation of teachers and students to us, in Jesus' Name.
BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi yall!
This subject has been hard for me. There is a lot of scripture involved and a lot of details to see and there is trouble for me visually because of the difference between the way we reckon a Day and the way the Bible Reckons a day.
I began studying this a couple of years ago, as I began to look at our Hebrew roots; I have laid this out as I see it visually and I want you to look at it. I believe that it shows that Jesus could not have been crucified on Thursday or Friday for several reasons. There are three pages and you might want to look at them together in three windows, but what I have done is to lay out the facts and then try then out using Wed, Thursday and Friday as the 14th of Abib.
As you look keep some specific points in mind.
1. The scripture of the OT tells us what the Lord's Passover looks like and it makes the Lamb to be selected on the 10th of Abib and kept till the 14th of Abib, when it is slain in the evening as the day turns to the 15th of Abib.
The scripture does not say keep it until the end of the 13th of Abib and slay it in the evening as it turns to the 14th... it must be slain on the 14th and Jesus was.
This further explains exactly why Jesus tells the disciples this is His Body and Blood eat, because the lamb that they ate that night was not God's Lamb... Jesus was and it was not yet slain yet.
2. The scripture of the NT shows and Josephus attests that at the time of Jesus the Lambs were being slain beginning on the 13th. This allowed Jesus to eat Passover with HIS disciples and then be slain at exactly the time that the LORD's Passover would be slain.
3. A clear distinction is made in the scriptures between the Jew's Passover and the Lord's Passover.
John 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
John 11:55 And the Jews’ passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Note here that Luke says Unleavened bread when the lambs are killed. They are calling this unleavened bread; but this is clearly not the 7 days that God calls unleavened bread, which begins on Abib 15:
Luke 22:7 ¶ Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
If you count, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 That is 8 days not 7. Unleavened Bread is a 7 day feast that begins as the 14th becomes the 15th at evening and continues to the 21st day of the month. The first Day of Unleavened Bread is a High day or Annual Sabbath - that is in addition to the weekly Sabbath.
Leviticus 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
The Pharisee have changed God's appointed time!!!
What is worse is the Pharisee were themselves eating not on the 13th as they were leading the people to do, but they were eating on the evening of the 14th as they ought....
John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
Jesus and the disciples ate the passover at the home of a Jew whose lamb had to have been slain and eaten on the evening of the 13th because you cant keep the land till morning!!!
The pharisee caused the people to sin, something they would not do themselves!! Why was it not a sin to Jesus? because Jesus was the Lamb and the disciples did eat of his body and drink of his blood spiritually before it was ever shed in the natural... the meal they had was just a supper... the Last Supper.
Jesus knew the day of the passover... he stated it:
Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Jesus said this on the 11th of Abib.
The Passover they ate was the bread and the wine of the covenant:
Luke 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
The meal was supper - the bread and the wine the passover.
Lastly, we need to understand First Fruits. Firstfruits occurs on the marrow (Daytime- Morning) after the Sabbath that comes after the High or Annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.
On First Fruits, the wave offering of a sheif of grain is presented to God as the FirstFruits of the harvest:
Leviticus 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Jesus is the first fruit, both the sheaf and the Lamb, and he came out of the grave HOLY without spot or blemish and as the High Preist he took the offering (himself) to the Father, which is why Mary could not touch him as he had not yet ascended.
First fruit wave offering is always presented on the morrow, after the weekly Sabbath that falls in the week of Unleavened Bread. It is from this day that the Sabbaths (7) are counted to come to Penecost or Shvout which is the feast of weeks; it is also from this day that 50 days are counted to Pentecost or Shavout. This is called the counting of the Omer.
At this point, I see that Wed is the best choice for a Crucifiction day, but even saying that there is I know more to see and understand. This having to do with the counting of the omer. I wont go into that at this point, as at this point, I dont think that it will change Wednesday, but there are a lot of details... to many to ignore regarding the final Ascension of Our Lord before Pentecost.... that I believe are related to the reckoning of how the omer is counted and there is and has been controversy in that regard, as the Bible ties it to the harvest and not to the Passover, and the Pharisee and the Saducee were not in agreement.
Anyway here are the visuals: What I did was try to lay out the events and make the only variable the day.
http://www.helpforhomeschoolers.com/WedAbib14.htm
http://www.helpforhomeschoolers.com/ThursAbib14.htm
http://www.helpforhomeschoolers.com/FridayAbib14.htm
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
This year that Christ was crucified the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread which was the High holy day, happened to fall on Sabbath day. Both were on the same day.
We DON'T know which year He died
could be anywhere between 27-33
I just meant, that from scripture in the gospels it appears to me that the two holy days fell on the same day that year that Jesus was crucified. I don't claim to know what actual year it was.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Chaplain Bob
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"Good Friday", Easter or Christmas are not Biblically mandated holidays so we are free to not celebrate them at all or to celebrate them any way we choose.
And debating exactly when Jesus was crucified really serves no useful purpose. The important thing is that he WAS.
--------------------
In His Service,
Bob Allen
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yahsway
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Okay, there are always 2 Sabbaths during the Passover week. And according to scripture the Feast Days of Unleavened bread begins on a fixed date-the 15th of Abib(Leviticus 23:6)
We also know that the Jews did celebrate another important festival called "the Festival of Joy". It is a "First Fruits" celebration. It is known in the Hebrew tongue as "Shavout" but we know it in the greek tonque as "Pentecost".
The sheaf waved on First Fruits was a barley sheaf. On the first day of the week following the regular Sabbath during Unleavend Bread, the harvest of this cereal grain began.
On this day of waving the sheaf, Israel is to begin counting off 7 complete sabbaths. This counting process has become known as "counting the omer" The count begins on the Day of First Fruits, and is culminated 50 days later on Shavout(Pentecost).
The weekly sabbath can be, and is, sometimes called a Shabbat Shabbaton (exodus 31:15) however, except for Yom HaKippurim. the word Shabbat is not applied to Feast Days. They are days of Shabbaton.
so it aseem that "the day after the Sabbath" (Lev. 23:11) would not refer to the first day of Unleavened Bread, for that is a Shabbaton, a feast day. Instead it refers to the weekly sabbath.
We know from scripture that Yeshua was risen on the First day of the week (Sunday). Counting the omer from the day He was risen Sunday (7 Sabbaths plus 1 day or 50 days later) brings us to the Day of Pentecost. (Lev. 23:15-16)
Yeshua fulfills the Shadow of firstfruits. He is first in every way.
The Feast of Unleavened Bread has 2 Sabbaths in it. And from Scripture we know that Yeshua arose on the First day of the Week, Sunday, the day the counting of the Omer began to culminate to 50 days (7 Sabbaths plus 1 day) which brings us to the day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost(Shavout) had FULLY come..... Fully come, completed days of counting the omer, 7 Sabbaths plus 1 day=50.
So if you look back to the week Yeshua was aressted, tried, crucified, there were 2 Sabbaths. You all know that a spotless lamb was to be taken and kept for 4 days to make sure it was spotless and then it was killed and roasted and eaten at Passover. In the same way, Yeshua was taken,, brought to Pontius Pilate who declared he found "No fault" in Him(Yeshua). Wow, Out of his mouth, Yeshua, the perfect spotless lamb of God!
I was reading the post that HFHS put out from another poster and it is pretty near to scripture that you can get. But i like counting the omer because Yeshua is the First of the firstfruits of resurrection. He has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep (1 Corinthians 15:20,23)
Yeshua is the "firstborn among many brethren", and we, His brethren also have the first fruits of the Spirit. HallaluYah!
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
This year that Christ was crucified the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread which was the High holy day, happened to fall on Sabbath day. Both were on the same day.
We DON'T know which year He died
could be anywhere between 27-33
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I don't agree with the majority of Catholic ritual, but when I read about why they do their rituals, it's an eye opener. They do what they out of devotion to God and Christ. I find it has a depth of feeling that we in the Protestant church could learn to appreciate.
AMEN !!!
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Here is their definition, on their pagan web site
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06643a.htm
I don't agree with the majority of Catholic ritual, but when I read about why they do their rituals, it's an eye opener. They do what they out of devotion to God and Christ. I find it has a depth of feeling that we in the Protestant church could learn to appreciate.
I'm tempted to buy the book at the bottom of that web page "Catholism for Dummies" ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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WhiteEagle
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Thanks Born Again. That's how I understand it according to John 19:31 "The Jews therefore because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day(for that sabbath day was an high day..."
This year that Christ was crucified the 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread which was the High holy day, happened to fall on Sabbath day. Both were on the same day.
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WhiteEagle
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wparr:
In John 4:7-30. vs 23,24 "...true worshippers shall worship God in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
This is the story of the Samaritan woman and she informed Jesus she didn't have a husband. He told her she spoke well. He told her she had had 5 husbands, and the one she was with now still wasn't her husband. Jesus said she spoke truth.
I have gone back to the books of the Torah and could find no law concerning unmarried people shacking up, (I'm sure there is one somewhere I just couldn't find it) All the laws against fornication or adultry had to do with betrothed and married people. The closest thing I could find was in Exodus 22:16,17 " and if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins."
So Indeed this Samaritan word did speak well. Evidently no man did his duty to claim her as wife. During this time period, women did not have the say about marriage. This woman was looking for love in all the wrong places.
She wasn't a virgin, and what man would have wanted to make the virgin dowry price?
Society had dealth this woman a cruel blow, as she was used goods, and men didn't have to treat her with any respect.
Yet, Jesus tells her "you've had 5 husbands."
Now if Jesus considered these former men "husbands" to her, she was under the penalty of Mosaic law and could have been stoned along with all those men.
Why doesn't Jesus bring this up?
All He talks about is Spirit and Truth.
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BORN AGAIN
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Mark 16:1-2
(1) When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.
(2) Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Luke 23:54-24:1
(54) It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
(55) Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.
(56) Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
(24:1) But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
The two sets of scriptures are certainly different. Either there were two sabbaths or there was one combined sabbath, in which case Mark or Luke may have had his facts wrong. (heresy!!)
John 19
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day (for that sabbath day was an high day) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
But it wouldn't be the only instance of the Gospels constradicting each other is some details.
And to use the method of creating a second sabbath (as I also did in my analyis of some years ago) is also not textually supported anywhere, is it?
All you can do is ASSUME that there is another sabbath, isn't that true?
I think that John 19:31 is most convincing of all, namely that "that sabbbath day", meaning the "weekly sabbath day", was also "a high day":
John 19
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day (for that sabbath day was a high day) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
And then a second sabbath need not be assumed, notwithstanding the statement in other than the statement in Mark 16.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
"row, row, row your boat, across the Sea of Galilee"
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wparr
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Mark 16:1-2
(1) When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.
(2) Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Luke 23:54-24:1
(54) It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
(55) Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.
(56) Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
(24:1) But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment
IF they bought the spices after Sat Sabbath was over, then how did they then go and rest on The Sabbath?
COME ON BA
YOU ARE MAKING ME REPEAT
MAKE THIS WORK WITH "GOOD FRIDAY"
If they bought on Sat night, what Sabbath did they go rest on.
I KNOW you are not THAT dense
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BORN AGAIN
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wparr writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
YOU ARE TOOOOOO MUCH
If I am TOO MUCH, you are NOT ENOUGH.
wparr continues quote:
AFTER ALL THE SCRIPTURE (what about the spices bought AFTER the Sabbath, the resting on the Sabbath AFTER preparing the spices)
The spices were bought AFTER the shops reopened on Saturday evening after sunset which began the evening/night of Sunday, during that evening they prepared the spices.
And then they rested AT NIGHT ![[zzzzzz]](graemlins/20.gif) , like normal people, waiting for Sunday morning to dawn.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
It is possible, and perhaps probable, that the Hebrews/Israelites counted partial days as whole days, so that, if Jesus was crucified on Friday at 3 p.m., that would be Friday, Saturday and Sunday if the Lord rose after sunset or thus during the evening/night portion which began Sunday.
It wouldn't surprise me if that ends up to be a true interpretation, in which case it would be Good Friday, would it not?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
YOU ARE A TRIP
AFTER ALL THE SCRIPTURE (what about the spices bought AFTER the Sabbath, the resting on the Sabbath AFTER preparing the spices) POSTED
AGAINST THIS MAN MADE SCHEME (including by YOU) YOU WOULD TURN AROUND AND BUY INTO IT.
YOU ARE TOOOOOO MUCH
Ephesians 4:14-15
(14) As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
(15) but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
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BORN AGAIN
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okay, Passover instead of Good Friday; that's better.
But from this extended Topic discussion, no one is certain, nor can anyone apparently be certain, on which day the crucifixion actually occcurred, and the RCC may be right about Friday.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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wparr
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NOPE
WOULD STILL BE MAN'S TRADITION
GOD CALLED IT PASSOVER
WHO IS MAN TO CHANGE IT????????????????????????????
AND PASSOVER VARRIES TO WHICH DAY OF THE WEEK IT IS ON
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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BORN AGAIN
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okay, thank you, becauseHElives. So the RCC says that it is Good Friday because it is:
"... the Friday on which the Church keeps the anniversary of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ."
On the basis of John 19:31, they could be right:
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John seems to be saying that the regular weekly sabbath was in that year [n]also the high day[/b] of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which was a high day.
It is possible, and perhaps probable, that the Hebrews/Israelites counted partial days as whole days, so that, if Jesus was crucified on Friday at 3 p.m., that would be Friday, Saturday and Sunday if the Lord rose after sunset or thus during the evening/night portion which began Sunday.
It wouldn't surprise me if that ends up to be a true interpretation, in which case it would be Good Friday, would it not?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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What does the RCC say the words Good Friday stand for, please?
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
what does Good Friday stand for again, please?
Do you want the answer according to TRUTH or tradition?
TRUTH - look what Thunderz7 said
tradition - who cares
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BORN AGAIN
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what does Good Friday stand for again, please?
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
It's "good" because it is a day HE has made, rejoice and be glad in it.
It is the day after the High day Sabbath, and the day of preparation before the weekly sabbath, a "good" day, between two sabbaths.
T7
(Psalms 118:24)
This is the day which Yahweh has made; Let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Hallelu Yah
Hallelu Yah
Hallelu Yah
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
It's also good, because the company I work for pays me not to work that day.
I pray that doesn't offend,
I really mean it as a joke ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
T7
When I lived in Houston I worked for an Israely owned company (Tadiran) that had good Friday as a paid holiday.
FIGURE THAT ONE OUT
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
BecauseHelives:
You are free to believe whatever floats your boat. The issue is non-essential to Salvation as to the exact timing schedule. I'm grateful to know it happened and will be humble enough to believe what the Bible says is true, and I don't have to agree with the details. We agree that JESUS IS THE MESSIAH WHO CONQUERED DEATH AND PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS. All else is gravy at worst, and the meat at best, but not additional Salvation.
TRUTH ONLY MATTERS WHEN IT PERTAINS TO SALVATION
FALSE FALSE FALSE
DANGER DANGER DANGER
Christianity is MORE than just getting to Heaven.
2 Peter 3:17-18
(17) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
(18) but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
We are to continue to GROW in grace and KNOWLEDGE.
You can't grow in these areas based on Not in traditions, rituals, fables, myths and lies.
BUT IN TRUTH
John 4:23-24
(23) "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
(24) "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
We MUST Worship in TRUTH not in based on traditions, rituals, fables, myths and lies with sincerity.
That word MUST - Greek meaning is: it is necessary
IT IS NECESSARY that we worship in truth, sincerity IS MEANINGLESS if not rooted in TRUTH.
The Bible is for MORE than Salvation
2 Timothy 3:16-17
(16) All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
(17) so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Traditions, rituals, myths, lies, fables DON'T equip us
TRUTH DOES
What does TRADITION do?
Mark 7:13
(13) thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
It INVALIDATES - or renders The Word of God VOID, or deprives The Word of God offorce and authority.
DOES THAT NOT CONCERN YOU
DOES THAT NOT SCARE YOU
IS IT LOVE TO LET A BROTHER OR SISTER CONTINUE IN THIS STATE???
NO NO NO NO NO
THAT IS NOT LOVE
By contrast to tradition
What does TRUTH do?
John 8:31-32
(31) So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
(32) and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Seeing the contrast of tradition to Truth
Does that not motivate you to set free your brothers and sister from the bondage of tradition and rituals with TRUTH
IT DOES ME (and Linda and Drew and becauseHElives, and SoftTouch, and hardcore, along with others of the so-called "heresy hunters")
See you make take "non-salvation" issues lightly, but we CAN'T
AND NEITHER DOES YAHWEH ELOHIM
And I'm not angry with you WhiteEagle, I'm hoping you see where our passion and motivation comes from.
I DON'T HATE the people of the rcc, the popes and leaders, the wof false teachers.
I HATE the deceptions, lies, non-Biblical traditions / rituals, non-truths, false teachings the put out.
If you can't believe us on this then you have NO CONCEPT of loving the sinner while hating the sin.
Jude 1:22-23
And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
(John 14:17) that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
(John 15:26) "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
(John 16:13) "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
(1 John 4:6) We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
REMEMBER THIS
The Holy Spirit is THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH
NOT TRADITIONS
NOT MYTHS
NOT FABLES AND NICE STORIES
THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH
TRUTH MATTERS
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Thunderz7
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It's also good, because the company I work for pays me not to work that day.
I pray that doesn't offend,
I really mean it as a joke
T7
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Thunderz7
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It's "good" because it is a day HE has made, rejoice and be glad in it.
It is the day after the High day Sabbath, and the day of preparation before the weekly sabbath, a "good" day, between two sabbaths.
T7
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BORN AGAIN
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somebody please enlighten me, what does Good Friday mean again? thanks.
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Thunderz7
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The Word did/does not rely on man-made doctrine.
The Word did/does not rely on denominational tradition.
The Word did/does not even rely on Hebrew tradition!!!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Word was/is God.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
The Word knows that He/Himself created evening to evening as a day. Twelve hours of night/dark, Twelve hours of day/light = 1 day.
John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
The Word/Yeshua/Jesus, who created time, days and nights, KNOWS there are twelve hours in a day.
That leaves twelve for the night.
He does not depend on modern man, or ancient Hebrews, to tell Him what a day is, He made it, even before He made man.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The Word said He would be in the earth three days and three nights.
N1+D1+N2+D2+N3+D3=72
12+12+12+12+12+12=72
Other terminology from scripture.
[using KJV as to not offend the "only's"]
1- (on the third day) - used many times in the old testament, but not in the new.
Still, a time period from 48 to 72 hours.
2- (in three days) - used five times in the new testament.
Three ways to look at this phrase.
(a)-a time period from 1 to 72 hours.
(b)-from 48 to 72 hours.
(c)- begining at 72 hours.
3-(after three days) - appears six times in the new testament.
a time period of 72 hours or more.
If I have left any out please point it out, but I beleive any I missed will still fall into this same framework of timing.
The only time that fits all the scriptures is 72 hours, just as the WORD said.
The 72nd hour, a 60 minute period of time created by the Word.
Jonh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
John 20:1 ¶ The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
The Word was laid in the earth at sundown the day of the crucifixion and was already gone at sunrise of the first day of the week (Sunday).
He rose at sundown as the sabbath gave way to the first day of the week,a 60 minute time frame, 72 hours after He was laid there, which was Wednesday sundown.
Wed. evening - Thu. morning, the first day.
Thu. evening - Fri. morning, the second day.
Fri. evening - Sat. morning, the third day.
12 hours of dark, 12 hours of light = 1 day.
12 hours of dark, 12 hours of light = 2 days.
12 hours of dark, 12 hours of light = 3 days.
Denominatiions, tradition of man and Pharisee tradition of the Hebrews, can't change this.
John 19:31 ¶ The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John says, in 19:31, that the day of the crucifixion was the preparation day for the High Day Sabbath.
Tuesday sundown to Wednesday sundown = (Wed. to modern western man).
Jesus was laid in the earth at the end of the day of preparation for the High Day Sabbath.
Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown, The High Day Sabbath = (Thu. to mwm). [First night and first day of Jonah].
Thursday sundown to Friday sundown is the day after the High Day Sabbath = (Fri. to mwn)[second night and second day of Jonah]. Preparation day for the weekly sabbath.
This is the day the shops are open, between the two sabbaths.
Friday sundown to Saturday sundown the weekly sabbath.
So I'm for a "sundown service" instead of a "sunrise service".
T7
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BORN AGAIN
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sister WhiteEagle writes quote:
Wparr: If Christ did rise at 3 pm on the Sabbath day (Saturday) and decided to do a disappearing act and make the angels wait until Sunday morning to roll back the stone and the earth quake of the morning,.....Why would Christ want this testimony to be delayed until the Next Morning at dawn?
When God Almighty parted the Red Sea, He didn't hide it until the next morning.
Amen to that, sister, I was thinking that very same thing yesterday but was busy at work and couldn't get into it.
While it is presumably possible that Jesus rose in the afternoon on Saturday-Sabbath, it would seem improbable (if I were to play to the odds ) that Jesus would have operated on a delay scenario, especially with something as important as the resurrection.
Jesus is not like CBS TV which might have to initiate a "5-second delay" to make sure no profanity passes to the viewer.
So I agree with you, such a proposed delay seems both highly improbably and unnecessary.
BTW, I'm glad you can count to 4.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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becauseHElives
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WhiteEagle, quote:
The issue is non-essential to Salvation
The correct understanding of the death, burial, and resurrection are essential to understanding Truth.
Yahweh will one day judge the hearts of all men and women, only those that desire the Truth above everything will enter into eternal life.
You see WhiteEagle , I have said it before many times on this board and other places “The heart of every issue is the issue of the heart!”
Never forget Yeshua’s words “Many in that day shall say Lord, Lord” only to hear His reply “Depart from me you worker’s of iniquity I never knew you”
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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becauseHElives
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Exultant Drew !
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Caretaker
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Amen Linda, Walt, Dale!!!!
No one saw the ressurrection. They beheld the resurrected Christ, they witnessed the empty tomb.
1.Jesus was crucified on Passover which is also "the day of Preparation" for the next day, "the Feast of Unleaven Bread" (Matt. 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19: 14, 31).
2.The Feast of Unleaven Bread is itself a sabbath, a special sabbath and is not necessarily on a Saturday (Lev. 23:5, 6; Num. 28:16. 17; John 19: 31).
3.Jesus was dead for a full three days and three nights, not just parts of three days (Jonah 1:17; Matt. 12:40; 27:63; Mark 8:31; 9:31; John 2:19-21). This passage is a real problem for those advocating the traditional Friday crucifixion although they tend to squirm around it by saying it could mean some part of three days and three nights. Fine, but where are the parts of three days and three nights? By this reckoning and Jewish time there was Friday daytime (sunup to sundown), Saturday nighttime (sundown to sunup), Saturday daytime (sunup to sundown), and then Sunday nighttime (sundown to sunup). Even with this reasoning, two parts are missing: Friday night and Sunday day. By Jewish time, Friday nighttime (sundown to sunup) would have been before the crucifixion and Sunday daytime (sunup to sundown) would have been after the resurrection. {Remember, when the women arrived at dawn, Jesus had already left the tomb !) This certainly isn't three full days nor is it even part of three days and three nights. The only way this can be forced to work is if it is twisted to mean any part of three different days.
4. The spices used to anoint the body were not bought by the women until after a sabbath (Mark 16:1). On the day of the crucifixion, there was unlikely to have been enough time to deal with the tragic loss, regain composure, and arrange to get the spices necessary to anoint the body. If the crucifixion was on the traditionally accepted day (Friday) and the women bought the spices after a Saturday Sabbath then that means they could not have pre- pared the spices until Sunday. That seems highly unlikely since they came to the tomb at dawn. Further, that interpretation is inconsistent with the next point.
5.The spices were prepared by the women before a Sabbath (Luke 23:56). If the crucifixion was on a Friday and the Sabbath is interpreted to be a Saturday, then this passage means that the spices were prepared on Friday. That by itself is not a problem but it is incompatible with the previous point. It is illogical to accept an interpretation that says the women prepared the spices before they bought them!
6.The women's trip to the tomb was in close proximity to sunrise on the first day of the week, not sundown (Mark 16:2). This point made by Mark is important because otherwise it might be possible to interpret the above evidence in such a way that the women went to the tomb soon after the "first day of the week" started which would be early Saturday evening by our reckoning. However, this verse makes it clear that they went in the morning rather than the evening.
Given this evidence, there is sufficient reason to draw the conclusion that there were two sabbaths which occurred in that momentous week: the first was a special sabbath (exactly as noted in John 19:31) and the second was the weekly Sabbath (Saturday). The occasion of two Sabbaths during that week was directly attested to by Matthew (28: 1). For example, the Marshall interlinear translation of the Nestle Greek text is "But late of [the] sabbaths, at the drawing on toward one of [the] sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary to view the grave." This critical point has been dropped from the popular versions in English no doubt to support the traditional chronology.
If it is accepted that there were two sabbaths separated by a day, the following chronology can make sense of the apparently conflicting scriptures:
Tuesday - The Passover and "Lord's Supper" held in upper room.
Wednesday - The trial, crucifixion, and burial. All of these events, including those above, occurred in the time frame the Jews considered to be Passover because it was after sundown of one day (Tue.) and before sundown the next (Wed.).
Thursday - The. Feast of Unleaven Bread, a ceremonial sabbath, with the usual restrictions applying to any sabbath.
Friday - The women buy and prepare spices but don't have time to go to the tomb before sundown which begins the weekly Sabbath.
Saturday - The women must wait yet another day because on this day they must rest. Jesus rises late in the afternoon, at the end of the sabbath. This time frame would amount to three days and three nights since Jesus had died on the cross.
Sunday - Around dawn the women arrive at the tomb ready to administer the spices but when the stone is rolled back Jesus is already gone (Matt. 28:2).
Admittedly, the above chronology involves some speculation. However, my purpose is to point out that the traditional chronology involves even more speculation and, in fact, that the scriptural evidence is in direct conflict with the traditional "Friday crucifixion/ Sunday resurrection" thesis. Assuming the events were accurately recorded by the writers of the Gospels, then this raises serious doubts about the tradition if not refuting it completely. Therefore, while I believe we can boldly claim that Jesus was crucified and resurrected, we should not dogmatically teach the traditional chronology since it is not well supported by scripture !
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation and the bestowal of God's grace is through the sacraments of the RCC.
Catholic Catechism
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsist it in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404
1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).
2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
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"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
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"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
The Believer follows the Word in declaring faith alone in Christ alone.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
BecauseHelives:
You are free to believe whatever floats your boat. The issue is non-essential to Salvation as to the exact timing schedule. I'm grateful to know it happened and will be humble enough to believe what the Bible says is true, and I don't have to agree with the details. We agree that JESUS IS THE MESSIAH WHO CONQUERED DEATH AND PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS. All else is gravy at worst, and the meat at best, but not additional Salvation.
I am perhaps too harsh to acuse you of hate. I realize you are sincere in your quest for the Truth of God.
As I grow older I am slower to condemm any who Name the Name of Christ even if I don't see eye to eye with them on all their doctrines.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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becauseHElives
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posted
Hey WhiteEagle, I do not hate any individual, But I do hate false teaching in any form!
As we approach this subject of “Good Friday”… consider
"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many" ( Matt. 24:5).
Here we have many (plural) coming and saying I (singular) am Christ and deceiving many. This is a perfect description of a dynasty (The Roman Catholic Church). Those who say Antichrist is one man are dreaming.
Since the time of Pope Constantine there have been about 300 Popes, all coming one at a time and sending multiplied millions to hell one generation at a time.
(Every Pope is declared to be the Vicar of Christ, Christ incarnate)
One of the unmistakable identifying signs of Antichrist would be his changing the TIMES:
"And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and think to change TIMES and laws: and they shall be given into his hands until a time and times and the dividing of times" (Daniel 7:25).
Time changed by the Papacy.
Constantine presided over a famous Church Council named the Council of Nicaea in 325. At this Council, Constantine dictated that the date of the Lord's Resurrection should be celebrated only on the Sunday following the new moon. Those who refused to comply were called Quatrodecimans or 14th Day Christians and were ostracized by the ruling hierarchies.
At the first great church Council held in Jerusalem about 45 A.D., the apostle James presided. 300 years later we find a Roman soldier presiding.
The day of the Resurrection had to be changed so the Roman Catholic Church and its worship of Mother and Son from ancient Babylon could replace the True Worship of Yeshua the Messiah.
Satan saw He could not destroy the Church by persecution, persecution only made it grow. So one by one the True Church father’s were murdered at the hands of the RCC and replaced with men of greed for power and wealth.
And tradition replaced Truth, till as Yeshua predicted “by your Traditions you have made the Word of God of none effect.
I hope the following will peek enough interest that the readers will go to the web site provided……
Luke specifically tells us that Paul and his colleagues arrived in Troas in time to spend the first of the seven weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost with the brethren there. Once again, there is no significance to be found for Sunday in this passage.
Now let's examine the final instance where the "first day of the week" is mentioned in most English Bibles. It is found in the 16th chapter of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians:
I CORINTHIANS 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. (NKJV)
Is Paul speaking of a weekly collection to be set aside by the Corinthians every Sunday so a sufficient amount would be available when he arrived? Or is it possible that Paul had something else in mind?
The key to understanding this whole passage is the Greek word which begins verse 2. Thayer says is: "a preposition denoting motion or diffusion or direction from the higher to the lower . . ."
This word is frequently rendered "after" by Greek translators ("down from" = "after"). Let's look at the difference it would make to translate this word as "after" instead of "on" in this verse:
On the first day of the week >>>- becomes ->>> After the First of the Sabbaths
Here is a literal rendering of the first two verses of I Corinthians 16:
I CORINTHIANS 16:1 Now concerning the collection that is for the saints, as I directed to the churches of Galatia, so also you do. 2 After the First of the Sabbaths, let each one of you beside himself put something aside, storing up whatever he may have prospered, in order that when I come then collections may not be made; (literal translation)
We know that Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were important to the context of Paul's instructions to the Corinthians (I Cor. 5:7-8). It is likely that Paul wrote this epistle just before the arrival of the spring Holy Days. If that was indeed the time frame of the letter, then Paul's encouragement to begin gathering a collection "after the First of the Sabbaths" would have been intended to clearly tell the Corinthians WHEN to begin their offering so they would have it completed by the time Paul arrived. Once again, the most logical view of this Scripture does not include a recognition of Sunday.
CONCLUSION
Almost the entire Christian world celebrates Sunday as their day of worship in place of the seventh-day Sabbath God instituted at creation (Gen. 2:2-3). They justify doing this because they believe that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead on this day. However, as our study of the burial and resurrection has shown, the Greek text overwhelmingly supports another set of facts.
Yeshua was buried late on a Wednesday afternoon just before the Passover high Sabbath and he was resurrected very early on the morning of the weekly Sabbath. This particular weekly Sabbath was known to the Jews as the "First of the Sabbaths," because it was the first weekly Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost. Furthermore, it's likely that the "first day of the week," Sunday, is NEVER even mentioned in the Greek New Testament. May God help us to put away the traditions of men and obey His Torah!
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/sabbath_res.htm
The web sit will answer many questions about “The Burial, the Crucifixion and the
Resurrection.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
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posted
I will not stand idly by when other brothers and sisters in Christ are mocked.
This whole thread started, not to illuminate the truth of scripture, but to gratify the flesh by stomping on the Catholic church.
God looks upon our motives of the heart. We can fool or deceive ourselves about our own motives, but like many other things. We do not see our own selves clearly, but our motives are manifest to others, even if one can't see their own faults.
I've seen the manifestation of hatred toward all things Catholic on this thread.
Even if the Catholic Church is totally incorrect on all it's doctrine....which I don't believe it is... we are to still love our enemies.
Linda, I do not see hatred in your post. I do see it in wparr's and BecauseHelives' posts.
Why do I say this? because both of these guys call the Catholic Church the Great "you know what". (since the filters will screen that word out anyway).
Born Again doesn't appear to have this spirit of hatred. He is honestly trying to study the scriptures for the sake of the truth.
Scripture is correct. It's our understanding that is lacking.
Wparr: If Christ did rise at 3 pm on the Sabbath day (Saturday) and decided to do a disappearing act and make the angels wait until Sunday morning to roll back the stone and the earth quake of the morning,.....Why would Christ want this testimony to be delayed until the Next Morning at dawn?
When God Almighty parted the Red Sea, He didn't hide it until the next morning.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
First off Amen Linda and wparr …
Secondly quote:
White Eagle ,
But many protestant denominations also have persecuted the saints.
I also take issue with “The Daughter’s of the W!hore” as well as with the “W!hore” herself - “The Roman Catholic Church.
Men and women through the centuries that Love The Truth were always willing to pay the cost against Blaspheme of Yahweh’s Word. To the point of death.
The ecumenical movement of our day is no less a cause to stand against, than the Spanish Inquisition was in its day. This is the reason I speak out against “The Word of Faith Movement” Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren and others… It’s why I speak out against “The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. It’s why I speak out against “Lord of the Rings”.
I stand against those that try to convince someone they are “Saved” because they said a pray of forgiveness and continue to live in sin.
I will say no more in this tread on this, in this tread. If anyone wishes to discuss this I will do so in another tread.
This tread is about “Good Friday”..
I will post more info shortly on this topic
Thank you
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
Linda I have read many of your previous posts about the Catholic church and am aware you feel the Catholic church is all bad. You new post certainly illuminates my statement of "an axe to grind."
Please then make note then in making such statements about what I feel that I make distinction between the members of the Roman Church and the institution. I feel the institution is all bad. Yes. I would agree with that. It is not in my opinion a denomination of the Christian Church, but the Babylonian Mystery religion in disguise and bearing the name of Christianity.
Here is one clue... Mary the mother of Jesus is not the Queen of Heaven... You can read about the Queen of Heaven in Jeramiah and see that God was not pleased with man's veneration of her.
Also, I surely agree with you that those verses in Revelation do not apply only to the Roman Church, still they do very much apply to her.
Yes, there have been persecutions among protestant denominations in this country, but there is nothing that can compare to the blood that has been let in the name of Christ at the hands of the Roman Church, nor do I see the devestations and people in deep spiritual bondage because of prtestantism that I see because of her.
Perhaps my perspective is different because I live here in Indian Country and I see first hand the damage that has been done to this people in the name of Christ. Thousands in bondage to sin and lost in a religion that cant save them, and thousands more who will hear nothing of Christ for they see what was done to their people in His name.
Perhaps my perspective is different because my husband grew up in Europe and our family knows first hand the many people that want nothing at all to do with Christ or Christianity because they have lived the slaughter of the Roman Church and for them that is in their mind Christianity and they want no part of it.
Perhaps my perspective is different because like what Walt has seen in Hati, I have also seen here on the reservations, and I have personal friends who have also seen it in Africa and it is a crime. I think that I would rather see the Gospel not preached at all, than to see one preached that does not and cannot save. To bring bondage,and deception while promising freedom and truth is a far worse thing, than doing nothing at all. Jesus said He would rather that we be cold than be lukewarm.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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wparr
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I once asked a sincere follower of the Catholic faith why they believed that the "dead" saints could pray for them in heaven, and why they asked the "dead" saints to pray for them.
He said; "Just as we ask other living believers to pray for us such as in prayer groups, etc, this concept does not change after death of the saint to them, because they truly believe that the Saint has Eternal Life and is just as Alive in death as they were alive in Christ while breathing air on this earth."
I was blessed by his answer.
Well you were blessed in the flesh by a person, because his answer IS NOT based on TRUTH.
It appeals logically to sin tainted minds
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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