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Topic: A serious warning from Bandit
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
thanks for the heads-up, Bandit, but so far I have not seen anything that seemed unreasonable. I haven't understood it all, especially not epouraniois's stuff because he "adds on" a great deal of info which from his knowledge base probably should be there, but for me it is data overload. Terral seems more succinct.
Generally speaking, I think I can decide for myself what is valuable and what makes no sense to me. I keep the parts I like and discard or don't understand the rest. Certainly, before I would keep any part, I'd have to understand it first. epouraniois especially tends to be a bit "obscure" in his presentation.
Anyway, I'm not worried about either of them. So far they haven't said anything that I have felt any alarm about.
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BTW, Bandit, I am returning for a moment to this post after reading one of Terral's posts. He does sound just like epouraniois and just as complicated. I understood some of it, but most of it was presented in such a way that a lay person is not going to be able to comprehend it.
If anything, the subject of "gospel of the kingdom" and "christ cruficied for us" needs to be started at the beginning, and not blurted out in a mixed-up mess which is very difficult to unravel for lay persons who have never heard any such thing before.
And both Terral and epouraniois tend to "blurt out the whole mess" in one post rather than try to lead a person from a truth to a truth.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Wetshoes
Advanced Member
Member # 48
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posted
Bandit
I agree with your concern but mine is more over the “flavor” of some of these threads. My concern is other than the subject matter being posted… (although I too see an agenda)
I am noticing another wave of “superiority” moving through the board! There are always some who seek an “audience” at these sites. There is a flavor of spiritual competitiveness.
The goal then is thinly veiled as “edifying” one another but in reality it is usually little more than people building an intellectual or spiritual hierarchy.
The idea of “debate” underscores the fact that there exists divisions in thought. Christianity has more of this than almost any other social structure because it is so often abused. However necessary debate might be – is made moot when debate becomes a sport! A format such as a web board becomes a playing board for some. Scripture becomes little more than playing cards to trump another point of view and the whole subject being “debated” is lost in egos.
Love john
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
Posts: 279 | From: San Diego County California | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Adv.Christian
If I understand your intention correctly that brings me to my second question, 2 considering the perfection of God how could He teach opposing views?
That is one of the best questions I've seen to date.
The answer is that all of God's view are truth for the people and times they are written for. When we search for truth for today, we do not teach the flood is coming, prepare ye enter the ark. We know there was a time when that teaching was true for the people of whom the message was sent.
God did not write a Bible for the pleasure of reading, rather it is a collection of letters that were SENT for a specific purpose, under specific conditions,by a specific messenger to a specific peoples.
Paul NEVER sought out gentiles to teach until after Acts 28:28. In all cases these gentiles during the Acts period had already heard by the converted Jews and the letters SENT them in 46 A.D., Acts, ch. 15.
Act 17:1 Now...synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures,
If gentiles were standing outside the middle wall of partition, then it was a blessing in Paul's eyes, but the apostle was not sent to any gentiles until he was SENT, and that did not happen during the Acts, why, in the very last day of Israel's hearing of the word, the apostle declares he is in bonds for the hope of Israel,
Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren
Act 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had aught to accuse my nation of.
Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
And you are correct, Paul definatley had a different message to preach, just as the Scriptures declare of him. It is different because it is to and for another of God's called out company. This new company was not chosen, as were the previous callings, since, or from the foundation of the world, but this new company is specifically called a new creation, and it is this new creation that was chosen before, not since, the foundation... It is a newly created body of believers called the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
This new creation is called to be a full grown male, is called to a heavenly sphere with every blessing that is spiritual, called to unite as one body to the head, which is Christ the head of the church.
This church is not looking for Israel for it's hope, it's one hope is in Christ, whereas the gentiles during the Acts hope was intirely based upon Israel receiving her kingdom.
And any verses declaring gentiles were sent an apostle for their own hope previous to Acts ending would be contrary to the purpose of God's longsuffering during that period, and agaist what is clearly written as Bible truth.
What was written before Christs birth and ministry was true for them to whom it was sent. The message during the Acts was true for them to whom it was sent.
Once Israel entered into their blindness, and their hope and calling held in suspension, and a new body created not after the God of Israel Abraham and Isaac, then it is wrongly dividing the word of truth to include that which was set aside for this time as truth for today.
It was truth for that day, till the Salvation of God was sent to the nations and we will hear it.
They all turned away, and only now in these latter days are people turning to acknowledge these things that God has made seperate. Paul says we must pray for the deeper understandings here because it was not written, therefore not hid in the Bible, rather hid in God.
Praying without ceasing
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
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Adv.Christian
Advanced Member
Member # 3453
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posted
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Epouraniois I would pose this question for your consideration, actually a couple of questions. 1 Is the Lord perfect? I will venture a guess that your answer to that is yes. If I am correct in that belief then I come to my next question. You stated in your post quote:
Dispensationalism honors the fact that God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.
This was written before the mystery was revealed to the apsotle. Dispensationalism honors this too.
This means that God revealed more truth later on. Specifically, God gave, finally, a few letters which have the nations name on the envelope, whereas all other letters have only Israel for the addressee.
quote:
Modern hyper-dispensationalism tries to make an extreme distinction between most of the teachings of Paul and those of Jesus and His other apostles.
You better believe it!!!
If I understand your intention correctly that brings me to my second question, 2 considering the perfection of God how could He teach opposing views? I know that the common answer is Paul was speaking to the Gentiles while Peter was speaking to the Jews however last time I checked God created all man and He gave His Son so that all could be saved. As I have written in past posts in the event a single scripture taken in context directly opposes the doctrine in question you can rest assured the doctrine is wrong not The Holly Word of God.
As always my love to all and May God Bless.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
May the wisdom of the Lord find it's bossom in the prayers of saints.
Dispensationalism honors the fact that God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.
This was written before the mystery was revealed to the apsotle. Dispensationalism honors this too.
This means that God revealed more truth later on. Specifically, God gave, finally, a few letters which have the nations name on the envelope, whereas all other letters have only Israel for the addressee.
quote:
Modern hyper-dispensationalism tries to make an extreme distinction between most of the teachings of Paul and those of Jesus and His other apostles.
You better believe it!!!
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Of the twelve, Peter, and only once, spake to any non Jew, for that was the usage of the key Christ gave him to use, to open the door to that which later would be revealed by none of the twelve, but by the vessel called Paul.
Christ said plainly that He had not told them all truth:
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
But would send them the Comforter who would reveal all truth, and that truth would speak of Christ:
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Dispensationalism honors this fact as well. In fact, dispensationalism honors all Scripture, but only appropriates them to what they themselves declare.
When we read the Bible, we must be firmly aware that we are not reading Paul, or David, or Moses, they were only the vessels bywhich the Lord would make His outworking known. We are reading the Words of the Lord. The vessels God has chosen to send forth His truth does not alter the truth that God is making known.
Being that the mystery which concerns the church was not made known until the Salvation of God was sent to the nations, then anything we read before that demarcation (which was chosen of God) is written to Israel just as they proclaim, and therefore, not to the church.
During the Acts, the apostle clearly lays out the case for those few, very very few gentiles who, for only eighteen years, were used by God, & were so used only for the provocation of Israel to bear her fruit. Either the fruit of repentance, or the fruit of divorce. Those gentiles did not and could not partake of Israel's physical things, they were graphed in contrary to nature. They had nothing, zero, ziltch, nada, as far as having their own hope and calling are concerned. They were not called and chosen for the sake of themesleves in God, but to provoke Israel thereby. One hope. Israel's hope.
And Israel chose, as a nation, divorce. During the Acts, they prayed to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but once the fulfillment of the Lo-ammi prophecy came to bear upon them all, God became, not their God.
Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
And only after Acts was God then revealed to all nations, but He is currently not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This is a temporary position. Something else is going on in the meantime.
He has taken on a higher position even still, and taht being "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory".
To pray to the God who is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is to fail to ackonwledge this newly revealed position of the Christ!!!
Israel was concluded in blindness (Acts 28. 25-28) and the Salvation of God then, and not until then, was sent to all nations.
Only after this point is the mystery revealed. To mix this up and say it is not so gives no honor to that great rubric, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".
The result of any failure in this is shame. It therefore behooves us to honor that which God has made seperate by not making our own amalgomed doctrines. Why would we except that such a mixing up of doctrine can lead to the truth of Scriptural annalysis? Because Satan has had his hand in the affairs of men from the beginning?
We have been deceived ladies and gentlemen, and that deception has come from within the church itself. For that is where Satan works:
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
It's real simple folks. Christ said He had not told them all truth, but would later send them all truth.
Word of God fulfilled in Paul
Paul said in Colossians 1:25 that God chose him to be the vessel by which He would fulfill (Greek pleroo, "complete") the Word of God. That's what he did - with the revelation of the mystery [secret] given to him, God had nothing more to say.
This was prophecized:
Act 26:16
But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things
1. which thou hast seen, and
2. of those things in the which I will appear unto thee
Well, Christ appeared unto Paul to show what is the mystery:
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
The same body one with another in Christ, not one with the Jews, for the subject of this chapter is the first place in the whole of the Bible where any company can look towards heaven for citizenship.
It is marked by the word adoption, just as the two other chosings were so marked.
So if God has so seen fit to not send the nations their own hope and calling until after Israel takes her place amidst the nations, being now in that self same Lo-ammi period, it seems it would be the dispensationalist who would be able to acknowledge this great Bible truth.
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Bandit
Advanced Member
Member # 3643
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posted
Hello all.
I have just read through the three recent threads started by Terral. I will try to be fair but firm. For those unaware, the doctrinal position Terral is advocating is called hyper-dispensationalism. It is closely related to some of the teachings of the heretic Marcion of the mid 2nd century. (Who was also accused of Gnostism by some of the early church fathers.) Unless you know what you are dealing with, I would advise all here to stay clear of this discussion. I do not know that either Terral or Epouraniois are teaching this heresy from an intent to mislead, or whether they themselves are simply duped; but what they espouse is heresy. I shall know where this board itself stands if and when this post of mine is deleted. If they can post what they have posted, then surly my words of warning against this heresy should also be posted.
Modern hyper-dispensationalism tries to make an extreme distinction between most of the teachings of Paul and those of Jesus and His other apostles. (If you have read Terral’s threads, then this much should already be clear.) It is not that there are not legitimate questions to be asked concerning apparent differences between certain areas of New Testament scripture, but when those apparent differences are used to divide the New Testament, one part against the other, then the truth of the New Testament scripture, which is the sum of these different perspectives, gets lost.
Terral has said some very flattering things in some of his posts, like those on this board are more mature, more open to such discussions as his. Let it be remembered that flattery very often precedes deception. I would suspect that perhaps Terral has been accused of promoting heresy before. I would also suspect that he (she) is simply looking for a new venue in which to propagate these heretical views. I hope and pray that those on this board give this heresy no quarter. This is a time to put up one’s guard, not a time to drop it.
Terral, most people who frequent boards such as this as not aware (as you may not be) of the dangerous ideology to which you hold. In my view, you have cast aside the unity of the truth of the New Testament, and have accepted a falsehood which divides Paul from Peter, Paul from James, and even Paul from his own Lord! You seek to be a teacher of the word, but you have come to be in need of teaching yourself. I suggest you go back to square one: try to see the unity in the NT scriptures. If Paul is being faithful to the same gospel message as given elsewhere in the New Testament, why the apparently different perspective? Is Paul teaching something new (as you claim), or is Paul teaching the same gospel but from a somewhat different perspective (as I would claim). Hyper-dispensationalism is a divisively wicked doctrine. Either you simply do not know the error of its ways, or you share in its evil intent. I assure you, unless this post of mine is deleted, many on this board will come to know that I claim you are promoting a heresy - and teaching another Jesus - contrary to the command of God.
Bandit
P.S. Terral, I am not your enemy, but I will stand firmly against the ancient heresy you have brought to this board (and to which Epouraniois seems to concur).
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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