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Topic: A serious warning from Bandit
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
I agree with you that we most control our spirit for God tells us to do so, I can recall in the few years I have been participating on this board that this is not my nature and if I have done so I believed I have corrected in forgiveness and confession. The nature of this board in my view is not only to proclaiming the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ but also to learn from the scripture alone and that itself can be a challenge to many, but never the less we most compare “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” For we know that the law is Spiritual.
Wen you refer to “That is why God had need of the anointed cherub who covers (Eze. 28:14) in the first place, because Satan was the master at hiding things in plain sight.” If we don’t read carefully it is taking away the reality of Christ, which is the fullness of All things, did God really needed Satan for His work?
Even do your map illustration presents a form of time period in the real of God; God is out side time. There is no time or frame within Him but He the fullness of All that is made. By Him and for Him All things are made.
QT
If we can all just agree with John the Baptist in John 1:34 that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then perhaps we can begin going into the deeper things.
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bore record that this is the Son of God.
Yes, I do agree with you with Joh 1:34 and also with Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one and Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity bodily.
My time is limited but I will keep my self in-touch with the learning of Gods word.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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quote:
Originally posted by Terral:
Every Idolater in history thought they were creating idols to the true God and those transforming God’s Son into God Himself are no different today.
If I said that Jesus Christ Is God and that God is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is both Jesus and God would this make me an idolater or a blasphemer?
I would like to know if this is what you mean and if this is not what you mean what view is the one we are looking at!
Also what do you mean when you sayest that God is a Spirit, Jesus is a soul and that the creation is the body?
Thank you
Brother MAC
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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timspong
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Member # 5240
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posted
I thought this to be very interesting reading on the subject, taken from http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp?FROM=biblecenter
Question: Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the King James Bible?
Answer: 1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.
It is true that there is a small number of Scriptures that are not the same between the King James Bible and the so-called "Majority" Greek text. There are a number of reasons for this:
The so-called "Majority" text was not really based on the majority of texts, but rather a relatively small number of manuscripts. The last person to try to find the differences between the majority of Greek manuscripts, Dr. Von Soden, did not collate more than 400 of the more than 5,000 Greek texts. In other words, what is commonly called the "Majority" Greek text is not a collation of the majority of manuscripts at all.
The "Majority" Greek text is also the main Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox religion. They had a vested interest in changing (or deleting) some texts. More on this in a moment.
1 John itself is not in a large number of extant Greek manuscripts.
So why then is 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible, but not in many of the existing Greek manuscripts? To understand the answer, we must look at the history of what happened shortly after the Bible was written.
The Greek and Roman Institutions
During the early growth of the Christian church, ministers (whether saved or not) wrote down doctrines that they said were Christian and Biblical. Starting after the death of the apostles (about 100 AD) many people taught the lie that Jesus was not God the Son and Son of God, or that Jesus became God at His baptism, or the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit was not God or was not eternal.
The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught.
But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.
A Trail of Evidence
But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:
200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
The Vaudois
Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc. This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today.
Who Has the Most to Gain? Who Has the Most to Lose?
The evidence of history shows us that the Roman Catholic religion was relentless in its effort to destroy the Vaudois and their Bible. It took them until the 1650s to finish their hateful attacks. But the Vaudois were successful in preserving God's words to the days of the Reformation.
Now we have to ask ourselves a question: Who had the most to gain by adding to or taking away from the Bible? Did the Vaudois, who were being killed for having their Bibles, have anything to gain by adding to or taking from the words of God? Compromise is what the Roman religion wanted! Had the Vaudois just followed the popes, their lives would have been much easier. But they counted the cost. This was not politics; it was their life and soul. They above all people would not want to change a single letter of the words they received from Antioch of Syria. And they paid for this with their lives.
What about the "scholars" at Alexandria, Egypt? We already know about them. They could not even make their few 45 manuscripts agree. How could we believe they preserved God's words?
The Reformation itself owes a lot to these Christians in the French Alps. They not only preserved the Scriptures, but they show to what lengths God would go to keep his promise (Psalm 12:6-7).
And that's only part of the story about the preservation of God's words.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
quote:
dear brother Bandit, there are many people who believe that Jesus was not God; you ought therefore not to discount the possibility that the LORD God of Israel has sent Terral to create the "opportunity" for me and others to "speak up about the deity of Jesus."
BA: I love you! You posted this to Bandit, but I tell you I have been witnessing this very thing here and it has blessed me. I have witnessed one who I recall was at one time not sure on this matter, but whose Holy Spirit Fruit I had seen in other areas and in this debate they have been led to speak very well to defend that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh and that has blessed me. The Lord does indeed work in mysterious ways and we can see them so often if we just LOOK and watch and listen. So thanks Brother BA for reminding us of the little opportunities God gives when the enemy comes to kill steal and destroy.
God is Good! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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brother Bandit writes quote:
Bandit >> If those of you on this board think I {Bandit} should come out of hiding (and not just cast stones from behind a tree) then I will come out, but only on certain conditions.
Feel free whatever you want to do.
I appreciate the "warnings" you have given in an academic sense, in that I had never heard of a hyper-dispensationalist before, and if I'm not mistaken, I'm still looking for the place where Terral admits that the Son of God is as much as His Father YHWH is God.
Other than that, though, I also agree with Terral in the sense that he is not "as scary" as such warnings would make him out to be.
I am a free person and choose what I like about Terral and disregard what I don't or what I don't understand.
I think that we should be able to "counterspeak" with verses and our own speech whatever Terral says.
Additionally, I do think that, whatever we may think of it, Terral's overall Bible knowledge seems to be considerably superior to mine and I think to that of most of us here. And that is an accomplishment of Terral worthy of respect.
Actually my only complaint about and to Terral has been that he responds a bit to contemptuously to his brothers and sisters.
Knowledge of the content of the Word of God is not the only thing there is to learn from God and one other thing that we learn is about lovingkindness and compassion and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
And Terral has admitted as much to me; his answers need to be mixed with more love for those of us, who for one reason or another, don't know as many details about the Bible as Terral knows.
1 Corinthians 13
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.
From the above verse I would say that charity is more important even than knowledge.
Terral is hurting his message by speaking too roughly to us. He calls it boldness, I call it rudeness.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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posted
quote:
Bandit
As I have said, Terral’s rejection of Jesus as God should be a big warning flag to all on this board.
Agreed. Now, while it is true that God was manifest in the flesh, we still have been given three offices which the one God holds, and as it is written, there is no contraversy that this is a great mystery;
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.
A person can also hold multiple offices, such as father, son, and husband, or mother, daughter, wife, but it would be foolish to say this makes them three people, or can invalidate the other positions held.
Just a mention here, that in Genesis 1. 1, we have an immediate break from the normal rules of grammar, a plural word 'God' with a singular word 'created'. So we are confronted with a presentation going beyond our human rules of conformity towards understanding.
And it is just so with God, for He is totally outside of our ability to understand, therefore we are not burdened with the details of how He has done certain things, rather we are given the fact of the matters at hand, this being that He created the age-times that we may come to an position of ackonweldgment of Him and His stooping down to His children that by, through, and IN HIM we might lift Him up to His rightful place in the sight of all men.
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
Greetings Bandit! Ever been to Rabble-Babble on another board? Shalom and I look forward to Drews response and please don't be gun-shy! tehe
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bandit
Advanced Member
Member # 3643
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posted
Hello all (and Terral),
As I have said, Terral’s rejection of Jesus as God should be a big warning flag to all on this board. Yes, I am glad that boards such as this are for open discussion, for only in such open discussions can truth be revealed as truth. But realize that not all who come to places such as this have a altruistic and righteous motive. Terral has come, introducing two doctrines which I claim are untrue - doctrinal distortions based upon a skewed approach to scripture. And he vigorously wants to “debate” anyone who disagrees with him.
His first doctrine is that there are two “gospels” in the New Testament, meaning that Jesus and the apostles preached one “gospel”, while Paul was sent to preach another. His second doctrine is that Jesus is not God.
I have entered into (or been drawn into) similar “debates” with similar persons before. And not a one of those “debates” went anywhere, because such persons are not interested in discovering truth; they just want to draw as many as they can into their own world of doctrinal confusion. Now Terral is upset because I won’t “debate” him/her directly. But let me ask those of you who have been reading along, have any of the threads concerning either of Terral’s doctrines gone anywhere? (I didn’t think so either.)
Now Terral has stated that he/she really wants to debate me, on either of these two issues. And Terral has tried to “bait” me with all sorts of challenges. If those of you on this board think I should come out of hiding (and not just cast stones from behind a tree) then I will come out, but only on certain conditions. Here are my conditions. Both topics are important, but the deity of Jesus is of paramount importance, so it should be discussed first. (For if one rejects the deity of Christ, I don’t believe much else matters.) Now concerning this first issue (the deity of Christ), Drew [a.k.a. Caretaker] has made a masterful start. And since it appears that Drew is more than capable of defending this doctrine, I shall be more than glad to let him take the lead on this issue, since he already has. Drew seems to be gifted in this area; as for me, well, I’m a heck of an asset in a snowball fight. (Probably due to my extensive experience of throwing rocks from behind trees!)
So, Terral, if you want me to enter in, I am willing, but Drew’s opening post in his “Jesus is God” thread is the starting point. Please read through his post carefully. He laid a lot of stuff out. To try to generalize Drew’s point, there are a lot of places in scripture where God has claimed some unique quality (like being King, or Lord, or Judge, or Savior, or being eternal, or being all-powerful, etc). But there are places in scripture where Jesus (or the Holy Spirit) claim (or are said to have) these very same qualities. The point being, that if God alone possesses these unique qualities, and if Jesus also claims (or is said to have) these same qualities, then we have one of three conclusions: (1) God is a liar, (2) Jesus is a liar, (3) Jesus and God are One.
So Terral, please address Drew’s post. And since it is his post, please direct your questions to him first. I would prefer to let Drew do all the driving (cowards like me are only good for riding shotgun, don’t you know). But I am willing to come out from behind my tree and assist Drew in any way I can. And if you can successfully address all that Drew has offered concerning the deity of Christ, I would then be glad to take the driver’s seat concerning your two gospels doctrine.
Sincerely,
Bandit
P.S. Terral, someone asked you in one of their posts if you were a JW. So are you? That would explain a lot. And for those who don’t know, Jehovah’s Witnesses have a doctrine called “justified lying.” This means that lying can be “justified” when the situation calls for it. This means that a JW can lie about being a JW, they can lie about so many things, as long as it promotes JW purposes. They can even lie about the existence of their “justified lying” doctrine, so all need to beware. There are some really twisted “Christian” doctrinal systems out there.
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
brother Bandit writes quote:
So I repeat my warning. Unless you really know what you are getting into, avoid any such discussions with Terral. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
I appreciate all the warnings, brother Bandit, they have been very instructive to me, and I thank God (Elohim) for what you have said.
However, I would change your phrase quote:
Unless you really know what you are getting into
I would change that phrase to "unless you strongly believe that Jesus is God" don't debate with Terral.
There is one thing that you are missing in this interesting Topic, Bandit, and that is that Terral provides "opportunity to say that Jesus is God."
dear brother Bandit, there are many people who believe that Jesus was not God; you ought therefore not to discount the possibility that the LORD God of Israel has sent Terral to create the "opportunity" for me and others to "speak up about the deity of Jesus."
The LORD works in mysterious ways. And Bandit, there is always the possibility that Terral will believe that Jesus is equally God, or don't you believe in prayer and miracles of Jesus?
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS. BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
dear brother Bandit, I thank our LORD God of Israel for your post. It is true that brother Terral has not yet admitted to me the deity of Christ, only claiming that he is the Son of God" without acknowledging that the son of God which means to me to be "every one after their own kind" (Genesis 1), in this case son "of God". Thanks again for God's timeliness, brother Bandit.
Brother Terral, I agree that the Son of God is not the LORD YHWH since the Son Yashua sat down on the right hand of His Father YHWY, but one thing I ask you to do:
Terral, do you acknowledge that for Jesus as the Son of God to do the things that Jesus ended up doing, Jesus had to be of God-substance?
brother Terral, are you claiming that the Son of God is not God?
your friend in Christ, BORN AGAIN
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Bandit
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Member # 3643
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posted
Hello all.
It has been about a week since my initial warning concerning the introduction of some false doctrines on this board. Since then, Terral has openly challenged the deity of Christ, in addition to promoting his/her own dispensational views. And though I didn’t engage Terral in any direct dialogue (which was never my intention), I have followed most of the discussions.
I hope the discussions concerning the deity of Christ have opened some eyes concerning Terral. Terral is not here to build up anyone’s faith in Jesus Christ - Terral’s purpose is to sell you another Jesus! (And I hope none of you are buying it!) Remember that Paul speaks of various forms of apostasy which shall come in the last days. He speaks of those who are “always learning yet never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [2 Tim 3:7] “Holding to a form of Godliness, but denying its power: from such people turn away.” [2 Tim 3:5] I claim that Terral and his/her doctrines fall into this category. And as the apostle said, “from such people turn away.”
So I repeat my warning. Unless you really know what you are getting into, avoid any such discussions with Terral. To engage persons like Terral on any of these issues is like taking a ride on a runaway merry-go-round. You will go furiously round and round in circles, yet always end up right back where you started. (And perhaps more dazed and confused than when you started.) The intent of such doctrines is to cause confusion among the brethren. (And no one who denies the deity of Christ should be called a ‘brother’ in Christ.) Let the distinction remain clear: to be ‘Christian’ is to accept Jesus as LORD, to reject Jesus as LORD is to be something other than ‘Christian’. (Though many things in this world go by the name ‘Christian’.) Yet let us remember that there is a difference between one who is seeking truth, and one who rejects truth. I could wish that Terral was here seeking truth, but such is not now the case; but perhaps, in time, Terral may come to his/her senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. [2 Tim 2:26]
Sincerely,
Bandit
P.S. I appreciate all that our hosts have done (or not done) in this matter. They have allowed those such as myself to post our warnings without censorship.
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
After browsing through this thread I agree with Bandit and others.
There is ONE GOSPEL
Paul mentions on one "dispensation" in his epistles. The DISPENSTION OF GRACE. To me this means the time since Christ's victory over death on the cross that God DISPENSES GRACE UPON US. It's not a start of some DOCTRINE ABOUT DISPENSATIONS.
There is not any other scriptures about certain specific dispensations or time periods that you make into doctrines.
All human beings are children of Adam and Eve.
We are all under the same curse of sin. God chose Abraham to make a nation of believers because Abraham had faith in God and God chose his descendants to bring in the Messiah's birth.
Through faith.
It's always been about Faith in God.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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timspong
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Member # 5240
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posted
Thank you for your voice of reason. That is the first long post I have enjoyed in a long time.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
At this point if the view of double Gospel (s) is hold that might also lead to the acceptance of having two Savior (s) for there is two people involved in this matter, and that would be against the Scriptures Alone. For you cant bring and say that there are two gospels and yet acknowledge that there is one Savior when the Lord Jesus Christ IS THE Gospel Itself! This is the same problem the Pharisees had!, they would not acknowledge that Christ came in the Flesh and also was fully God.
Peter & Paul Taught the Same Gospel!
No Excommunications First thing to note is that although the Judaizer issue was indeed serious, none of the apostles excommunicated the others. Nowhere in scripture do any of the apostles accuse another apostle of teaching a false or different Gospel. Peter and James do not condemn Paul. Paul does not condemn Peter or James.
No Support from Church Fathers Nor am I aware of any Church Fathers teaching that Paul's Gospel was only for the Gentiles, while Peter's Gospel was only for the Jewish Christians. This is important since most of the Church Fathers were probably Gentiles.
The Scriptural Record We'll now take a quick look at scriptural proof that Peter & Paul taught the same Gospel.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 "The body is one and has many members, but all the members, many though they are, are one body; and so it is with Christ. It was in one Spirit that all of us, whether Jew or Greek, slave or free, were baptized into one body." There is only one body, one Church, one Gospel. Those who hold to the two Churches/Gospels theory cannot overcome this fact.
1 Corinthians 15:1-11 Paul begins by stating, "Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and in which you stand firm." He then relates how Christ died, was buried and rose in accordance with Scripture, "was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve" and other witnesses, and how Paul was the least of the apostles because he persecuted the Church. Paul then concludes: "In any case, whether it be I or they, this is what we preach and this is what you believed." What WE preach! Paul clearly indicates that he and the other apostles preach the same Gospel.
Acts 10 - 11: Peter's Vision & Conversion of Gentiles Peter is the first to see that the Gospel is for Gentiles as well as Jews. In sum, "The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were surprised that the gift of the Holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also.... Peter put the question...'What can stop these people who have received the Holy Spirit, even as we have, from being baptized with water?' So he gave orders that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Acts 10:44-48
Note that Peter only had the Gentile converts baptized - he didn't have them circumcised.
Note also that Gentiles were converting under Peter's preaching while Paul apparently was only preaching to Jews: first in the synagogues in Damascus (Acts 9:19-22) then to Greek-speaking Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 9:29)!
Acts 15: The Jerusalem Council "Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.' " The Jerusalem Council is the slam-dunk which destroys forever the two Churches/Gospels theory. Paul took the controversy to Jerusalem and the one, true Gospel was vindicated by all: Peter, James and the whole Council and Jerusalem Church. It was NOT decided that there were two Gospels: one for Jews and one for Gentiles. Nor was it decided that Gentiles had to be circumcised in order to be saved.
Note also Peter's words, "Brothers, you know well enough that from the early days God selected ME from your number to be the one from whose lips the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe." Acts 15:7 Nobody at the Council disagreed with Peter's statement, not even Paul who was sitting right there.
Note Peter's further words:
" 'God, who reads the hearts of men, showed his approval by granting the Holy Spirit to them just as he did to us. He made no distinction between them and us, but purified their hearts by means of faith also. Why, then, do you put God to the test by trying to place on the shoulders of these converts a yoke which neither we nor our fathers were able to bear? Our belief is rather that we are saved by the favor of the Lord Jesus and so are they.' At that the whole assembly fell silent." Acts 15:8-12
"WE are saved by the favor of the Lord Jesus and so are they."
This is the Gospel as taught by Peter (and approved by the Jerusalem Council) and it is the Gospel as taught by Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council and did not dissent from the Council).
Note that Peter clearly states that BOTH Jews and Gentiles are saved by the grace of Christ - not by works of the Law.
There is only ONE Gospel!
Galatians 1 - 2 Paul gives an overview specifically devoted to the proposition that "there is no other [Gospel]" Gal. 1:7 That alone kills the two Gospel theory. Paul relates how earlier on he met with Cephas and James (Gal. 1:18-19), and does not indicate that Peter (Cephas) or James had a different Gospel than Paul.
Paul recounts the Jerusalem Council (Gal. 2:1-6). "I laid out for their scrutiny the gospel as I present it to the Gentiles.... Those who were regarded as important...made me add nothing." Nothing is said indicating that there were two Gospels: one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Clearly, there is only ONE Gospel.
Galatians 2:7-10 This appears to be where the two Gospels myth, Peter to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles, originates. It is a red herring. Even if Peter's missionary emphasis at that time was to the Jews, while Paul's missionary emphasis was to the Gentiles, there was still ONLY ONE GOSPEL! Those who see two separate Gospels are simply misinterpreting the Scripture. It is one Gospel, taken to two distinct groups of converts. (Note: I wouldn't make too much of the separate missionary programs, for it seems clear that Peter and Paul preached to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.)
Shall dare to say that God is totally confusion? God forbid!
QT
I. One Gospel post Calvary
The Gospel of Christ (singular) to all people
KJV Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
One Faith – How do we acquire faith – Romans 10:17 – Therefore two Gospels meant two faiths!
KJV Ephesians 4:4-6
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
II. Peter and Paul preached to the same people; the same Gospel
Peter Fulfilled the Command to preach and baptize (Mark 16:15-16 & Matthew 28:19) –stating that the call was to Jews and Gentiles
Acts 2:37-39
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39.For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Where were the Gentiles mentioned in verse 39? Those that were afar off!
KJV Ephesians 2:11-20
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. {Afar off – whom, the Ephesians – Gentiles} -
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {Abolished – done away on the cross – nailed to the cross Colossians 2:15}
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; {The saint make-up the Church (1 Corinthians 1:2)
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" Those at Jerusalem were added to the Church (Acts 2:47) –still two Gospels??
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Of the Apostle(S) not just Paul –
Paul said that if anyone preached any other Gospel they would be accursed
KJV Galatians 1:8-9
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
{Notice the WE (Paul being an Apostle Galatians 1:1), plural meaning Apostles}
Peter Preached to the Gentiles and said that God was not a respecter of persons
Also in Acts 15 he preached to the Gentiles
KJV Acts 10:34-48
34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37. That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40. Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41. Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Paul Preached to Jews
KJV Acts 14:1-9
1. And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
2. But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
3. Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
4. But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.
5. And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
6. They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
7. And there they preached the gospel.
8. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9. The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
A text that is used to justify faith only, and the key to TRYING to claim to separate doctrines
KJV Ephesians 2:8-9
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(No where does this passage teach faith alone. We all agree that salvation is a gift we do not earn, but inherit do to obedience Matthew 7:21-23). Works nor faith alone will save you – to claim that Paul meant no works are necessary is to make Paul a liar as he penned these words: " Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
III. We are not Saved by Faith Alone
The devils believed – Faith without works is dead
KJV James 2:19-26
19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Children of God by faith in Christ – being baptized into Christ
KJV Galatians 3:26-27
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Can we say that Grace will save us and continue in sin – God Forbid – The body of sin is dead in the watery grave of baptism
KJV Romans 6:1-6
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
IV. Paul was not the only one to have the mystery revealed
Verses used to show he was – note –the mystery was revealed to him – but he never mentions the word ONLY
KJV Ephesians 3:2-7
. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
By the very existence of the Church the wisdom of God is shown – the Jews were in the Church (Acts 2:14-47)
KJV Ephesians 3:10-11
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11. According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Paul stated what he was teaching –was this not what Peter taught in Acts 2?
KJV Acts 26:22-23
22. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23. That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Peter Preached Christ dead, buried and raised
KJV Acts 2:22-25
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Peter declares that ALL THINGS had been revealed
KJV 2 Peter 1:3
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
What part of ALL Things did Peter not have? Do you want the blessings taught in the ONE Gospel? The Hope of eternal life can be yours.
Believers of this doctrine declare that Paul told the Ephesians the mystery. They teach that the mystery included faith alone salvation. Why then were the Ephesians baptized (Acts 19:1-5)? The same reason baptism is taught today into Christ his Church. The Church is the only place for salvation (Ephesians 5:23). The only way into the Church is the water (I Corinthians 12:12-13). Only way to enter into the water is to have completed God's plan of salvation -
Romans 10:14-17, Luke 13:3, Matthew 10:32-33 -----Then baptism!
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer was very prominent in the Double Gospel.
We know from Acts 15 and Galatians 2 that James, Peter and John recognized the grace God had given Paul. They agreed that Paul and Barnabas should go to the Gentiles and that James, Peter, and John should go to the Jews.
In the confrontation and opportunity that Paul faced came about because of what he and Barnabas were doing in Antioch and other Gentile cities. The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. The church was made up of Gentiles and Jews. Paul and Barnabas taught at the church for a year. The Holy Spirit called Barnabas and Paul to minister in other Gentile cities. They preached and worked great miracles in God's Name. Many people believed in Christ through Barnabas and Paul's ministry. They started churches and chose elders for the new assemblies. They completed the work the Holy Spirit had sent them to do and returned to Antioch. "On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles. And they stayed there a long time with the disciples." (Acts 14:27-28)
Paul and Barnabas obeyed the Holy Spirit. They went where He sent them and did what He told them. They were in the will of God. However, "Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: 'Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.' This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question." (Acts 15:1-2)
This was bound to happen. Two gospels were proceeding at the same time. Both groups believed strongly in their calling. They both preached Christ crucified. They both had experienced the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Circumcision and Law were part of the message of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Freedom from circumcision and Law were part of the Gospel of Grace. Both preached Faith in Christ through God's Mercy and Grace. They were different trunks from the same root.
Paul wrote in Galatians that "some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Those "false brothers" may have been members of the Pharisees. "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.' The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them." (Acts 15:5-7). Notice that the apostles and elders "considered" the issue of whether Gentiles should be circumcised and required to obey the Law of Moses for a long time. Circumcision and required obedience to Mosaic Law were the slaves about which Paul wrote. "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:1-4)
It was not a quick nor easy answer that came from the meeting of minds in Jerusalem. Paul wrote that he "did not give into them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you." Paul was fighting for the truth of his Gospel message. Paul wrote, "Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek." Paul wrote that the Jews did not add anything to his message. "On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles." (Galatians 2:7-8)
What happened next is quite remarkable!
"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, 'You are a Jew, yet you live like and Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners,' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."
Galatians 2:11-16
Paul mentioned this event to the Galatians because it demonstrated something they needed to understand about the Gospel of Grace. Paul began his letter to them by writing, "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ." The churches of Galatia were in great danger of going in the wrong direction in their Christian lives. Paul wrote a letter to wake them up, warn them and grab their attention.
Peter made a big mistake in his practice of the Truth of the Gospel. He did it because of "fear." Peter was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. They came from James, back in Jerusalem.
This is the same problem in today’s so call modern world! “Fear” Fear of not been accepted in the crowd of feeling good!
One early observation we make here is how different Peter was in the middle of Acts from the beginning of Acts. Peter was a mighty warrior for God in the early years of Acts. He was afraid of nothing or no one. However, by the middle of Acts Peter is no longer the leader of the Messianic Jews. He still has a strong voice, but James had taken over the position of leaders and pokesperson. It was James who made the public judgment about how to deal with concerns about Gentile Christians. "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Geniltes who are turning to God." (Acts 15:19)
Gloria A Dios!
Peter acted one way toward the Gentile believers when the circumcision group was not in Antioch. He acted another way when they arrived. He was afraid. Peter did not have the authority or power he once had. I believe that's because of the changes occuring in the Kingdom Dispensation. It was certainly obvious to the Jews that Christ was not setting up His Kingdom and was working through, of all people, the Gentiles and their former enemy, Paul. The Kingdom Jews continued to eat like Jews, live like Jews and worship like Jews. James had the power. Peter did not. The Kingdom Dispensation was not going to happen at that time. Jesus was not going to return to set up His Kingdom. The leaders of Israel had rejected Christ and He had rejected them. It was a time of great change and transition.
Peter's behavior was wrong. Paul had to oppose him to his face. Paul had to make it clear to everyone in Antioch, including his own partner Barnabas, that Peter's actions were unacceptable. Paul saw that Peter and the other Jews "were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel." The truth of both Gospels is Love. The Gentiles were to receive great blessings of Love from God in the Kingdom Dispensation and they will. Love is also the great blessing for Gentiles in the Grace Dispensation. Peter and the other Jews were acting outside the truth of the Gospel by separating themselves from the Gentile believers. The decisions of the Jerusalem council should have made that clear. Peter had spoken boldly about the Gentiles at the Jerusalem council. "God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:8-11) Peter knew the truth of the gospel. He just didn't practice it when he was with the Gentiles in Antioch. He was afraid of the circumcision group.
Why? Because of their legalism. The circumcision group was a bunch of legalists. They didn't like the freedom that Paul preached and the Gentiles practiced. Peter liked it. He found great joy in the freedom of the Grace Message. However, he was still a Jew preaching to Jews about Messiah's Kingdom. He also knew the truth that God was doing a new thing through Paul. He should have stood tall and confronted the legalists, but he
didn't. He backed away from freedom and separated himself from the very people who had it.
Unfortunately, that's not so much different from what's been going on in the Church for the past 1900+ years. The history of the Christian Church is a sad story of people separating themselves from others because of their freedom in Christ. Christians are still tied up by legalists to this day. Christians continue to separate themselves from each other in the Name of the One Who demands Love and Unity among the brethren. Pretty sad. Paul taught us all a vital lesson through Peter, but few have learned a thing.
In the years that followed his embarrassment in Antioch, Peter continued to do what he had agreed to do at the Jerusalem council: he went to the Jews. However, Peter learned a powerful lesson from Paul that day in Antioch. We still see the lesson in a letter he wrote his Jewish brethren years later: "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." (2 Peter 3:15-18)
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Wetshoes
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The government of God is upon our Lord’s shoulders! He is ruling His kingdom by supporting it. (Beneath it figuratively) Not meant to be a point of contention. You seem to feel that you have earned crown credit! My question is what have you done? Are debate and contention your calling? Satan knows scripture! Now with electronic Bibles, everyone can cut and paste.
The point of contention is exactly my first post to this thread Terral. What is your point in debate? What are you trying to contribute? As I said in the beginning of this thread, it is obvious you have an agenda. I believe that your goal is your own! I know that it is hard to make a point through a keyboard but your purpose is apparent!
Here is my scripture!
Rom 16:17 Now, it is my desire, brothers, that you will take note of those who are causing division and trouble among you, quite against the teaching which was given to you: and keep away from them.
Rom 16:18 For such people are not servants of the Lord Christ, but of their stomachs; and by their smooth and well-said words the hearts of those who have no knowledge of evil are tricked.
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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Adv.Christian
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quote:
You have yet to understand the differences between the two gospels of the New Testament posted to Miguel (January 06, 2006 08:01 AM) on this thread. Please give us your outline of doctrinal components teaching your ‘doctrine of salvation,’ at your earliest convenience. That will go a long way to explaining the remainder of your theology. Thank you in advance . . .
Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I find this to be rather self explaining when Paul himself is declaring the unity of all Christians, both Jewish and Gentile in that he placed the gentile Christian in to the promise of Abraham (The Jewish promise)
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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Adv.Christian
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quote:
Peter and the Twelve were addressing the “men of Israel” on the Day of Pentecost:
I acknowledge that the primary gathering was for the Jewish feast however you still avoided answering my question. Adv quote:
should I say why should they speak to all if God did not intend the Word to apply to all?
I fear you take part of what you want the scripture to say but seem to turn a blind ear to the rest of the apparent context of scripture which dose not coincide with your understanding of God’s Word. I pray you, as all should, be careful least the blind man fall in a ditch.
I can not, nor will I, pretend to be the only one here which understands God’s Word for I can only know what is given by God to me to know, I do not pretend to be able to say you are wrong or right, or any other member of this forum which preach Christ, however I also am more then aware there are many here which have a far greater understanding then I have given them credit for in the past, and for that I want to say I am sorry. I have learned by giving them credit for having this knowledge that when I listen to their insight it would cast questions on other interpretations I have held and some of them I have found to be wrong while some simply proved themselves more. held. As for me, I thank every member of this forum for the sharing of their knowledge. Rather I agree with it or not is of no matter, the fact is I have grown because of my brothers and sisters here and praise God for their insight. As always my love to all and May God Bless.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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Wetshoes
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Actually the Lord is at the bottom of the pyramid. In fact – He is under it!
The irony is that many see the kingdom of God in the light of earthly kingdoms where the enthroned king is elevated above his charge! But the kingdom of God is upside down to human understanding. In our Lord’s kingdom, the great are the servants. Our Lord’s kingdom is not at his feet, it is on His Shoulders. To be close to Him one works their way down to complete servant hood. In the end, those who entered the kingdom of God, were those who were known by Him. He knew those who were contrite, the ones that served and those He rewarded. There is a pattern in scripture that those who feel they have something more coming them are the ones who are castigated. The humble seem to be ignorant of their virtue.
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
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Adv.Christian
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timspong;
I’ll agree but I would like to also stress but he himself will be saved
While there is scripture (and I believe this) which states Christians will have varying rewards, their Salvation depends entirely on a persons acceptance of Christ as their Savior, not simply believing in Him. I have never been to Russia, I do however believe Russia exist. The fact that I beleive Russia exists however dose not make me Russian. I would have to lay down my current citizenship (Old man passes away) with my country and accept Russia’s.(Born again)
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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timspong
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In another post you quoted this scripture:
“For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's BUILDING. According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man MUST BE CAREFUL how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones (= good works), wood, hay, straw (= bad works), each man's work WILL BECOME EVIDENT; for the DAY WILL SHOW IT because it is to BE REVEALED WITH FIRE, and the fire itself will test the QUALITY of EACH MAN’S WORK. If ANY MAN’S WORK which he has built on it remains, he WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. If any man's work is BURNED UP, he will SUFFER LOSS; but he himself will be saved, yet so AS THROUGH FIRE.” 1Cor. 3:9-15.
It seems obvious to me that Jesus is the foundation stone not the cap stone.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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Adv.Christian
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Terral stated
quote:
Let’s see if anyone can provide us a list of doctrinal components for their ‘one gospel’ interpretation. Good Luck to all of you, because you need it.
I do not have mush time but I will list one right quick;
Acts 2:6-12
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Peter and the rest of the Apostles were not preaching solely to the Jewish nation so how or should I say why should they speak to all if God did not intend the Word to apply to all?
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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Wetshoes
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Terral
I have to admit that I am surprised by some of the posting here! Some of the words that I am reading sound as though they have gone beyond “superior” into masked “supremacy.”
I hope that I am wrong! I know that it is hard to put a clear thought up on a web board – but I cannot help to notice your words Terral regarding reward!
Are you expecting a superior reward? Your words and diagram suggest a hierarchy in the Church. Are you suggesting that Christianity has some sort of “rank” system?
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WoodStoneSteel@hotmail.com
Posts: 279 | From: San Diego County California | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Miguel
May I submit to you that the dividing line is Acts 28:28. That prior to this verse, Salvation was of the Jews. That when a letter begins "To the twelve tribes scattered abroad", that it has the name of the twelve tribes of Israel on the envelope, that just because we are permitted to read God's letters to some of His other children, our name is not necessarily one the envelope of every letter. That God does in fact and in truth send a specific message to a specific people when He so sends.
It is therefore fully complient that Gal, Thess, Cor, Rom, would be saying the same thing. These were written by the apostle who was sent to preach where gentiles were permitted to listen outside the wall of partition in the outer court of the temple proper.
James, Jude, and Peter did not write letters to non Jews. There only ministry was to be to the twelve tribes.
After this kingdom hope for Israel was judiciously set aside at the end of Acts, an apostle was then sent to the nations, when there were seven more letters written, these bearing the name Gentiles on the envelope. In these the apostle writes, is written that which completes the word of God. It is in these letters which God reveals a heavenly family which inherits a heavenly sphere with all spiritual blessings. He calls it, "the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all".
I submit that you not take my word for it, but to search and see if this is a new church, or if it is the same one as before.
Let see what the Word of God indicates in Acts 2:37-39.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Who heard this? The Jews!
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Then Peter said unto Jews, Repent......
39.For the promise is unto the Jews, and to your children, and to all the Gentiles that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
This promise is establish in the very last verse of Acts 2:39.
Even as many "Jews and Gentiles" as the Lord our God shall call..
This is the beuty of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Bring Out The Beauty Steadfastly..
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen ADV Christian.. not only adopted... but cut out of a wild OLIVE Tree and grafted into a cultivated one. That was an OLIVE Tree - not a sycmour or a cedar or any other tree but an OLIVE tree.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Made us both one???? Made the Gentile ONE with The Commonwealth of Israel?
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
If we - the Gentile Bride of Christ are fellow citizens with the Saints - Fellow citizens with the Jewish saint - like John the Baptist or Moses then THEY must be fellow citizens with us... and we are not citizens of this earth, but of a heavenly kingdom and thus they must also be.
In that Kingdom we have different positions.. some are the bride and some a friend of the Groom, but there is ONE GOD, ONE KINGDOM, ONE GOSPEL, ONE SAVIOR; ONE PEOPLE, ONE BAPTISM, ONE SPIRIT.
The middle wall of partition here is the wall that partitioned the Gentiles from the Hebrews; that is the partition that was rent for us... the veil was rent between the Hebrew and the Holy of Holies and now there is ONE Court and we through Christ all stand in his presence. There is neither male nor female/ jew nor greek we are one in Christ.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes quote:
I question the foundation of anyone who cannot acknowledge that the Lord sent an apostle to the nations with a message of choosing from before the foundation of the world ... (snip)
Nevertheless, I personally intend to remain as long as the Lord wills, and not be moved towards the deeper teachings of Ephesians and the following prison epistles until it can be acknowledged these foundational doctrine to the church. Only after this acknowledgment has been received can we then move on to the deeper things of God.
I guess you'll be with us for a while, then? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Adv.Christian
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An excerpt from a posting I placed on another topic seems to fit here as well.
quote:
Ephesians 3:11-21
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Paul certainly was not drawing a separation between the Gentiles and the Jews in fact he was attempting to do just the opposite and create a feeling of fellowship between the two by pointing to Christ and His actions of how they destroyed the separation which seems to be being revived. 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; sorry I think I cut and pasted that.
I fail to understand the reason for the constant desire to separate God’s people from one to another. No I am not Jewish by birth; I however am adopted into the family of God and therefore am one of God’s people Ephesians 3:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: I for one am unwilling to promote the division of Christians rather it is based on ancestry or race or any other possible reason. The fact of the matter is, if Christ is your Savior then I am your brother.
A-men ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen, HisGrace, very good! and Amen to you as well Drew.
quote:
It is in these letters which God reveals a heavenly family which inherits a heavenly sphere with all spiritual blessings. He calls it, "the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all".
Well not exactly - in these letters it is made clear that the heavenly Kingdom would include Gentiles - however, the fact that the Kingdom was a heavenly Kingdom was revealed by Christ himself before his death....
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
The Kingdom that Christ preached in the streets of Jerusalem and in Galilee was a HEAVENLY Kingdom. The Pharisee did not get it then either. This is why they were so threatened by HIS authority.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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James, Jude, and Peter did not write letters to non Jews. There only ministry was to be to the twelve tribes.
After this kingdom hope for Israel was judiciously set aside at the end of Acts, an apostle was then sent to the nations, when there were seven more letters written, these bearing the name Gentiles on the envelope. In these the apostle writes, is written that which completes the word of God. It is in these letters which God reveals a heavenly family which inherits a heavenly sphere with all spiritual blessings. He calls it, "the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all".
I submit that you not take my word for it, but to search and see if this is a new church, or if it is the same one as before.
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1 Peter 1:
1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Peter 3:
13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14: Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17: Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18: But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Paul and the apostles built ONE church - Jew and Gentile.
During Paul's conversion, Jesus' own words are in Acts 9:15 -
But the Lord said, "Go and do what I say. For Saul(Paul) is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel.
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epouraniois
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Miguel
May I submit to you that the dividing line is Acts 28:28. That prior to this verse, Salvation was of the Jews. That when a letter begins "To the twelve tribes scattered abroad", that it has the name of the twelve tribes of Israel on the envelope, that just because we are permitted to read God's letters to some of His other children, our name is not necessarily one the envelope of every letter. That God does in fact and in truth send a specific message to a specific people when He so sends.
It is therefore fully complient that Gal, Thess, Cor, Rom, would be saying the same thing. These were written by the apostle who was sent to preach where gentiles were permitted to listen outside the wall of partition in the outer court of the temple proper.
James, Jude, and Peter did not write letters to non Jews. There only ministry was to be to the twelve tribes.
After this kingdom hope for Israel was judiciously set aside at the end of Acts, an apostle was then sent to the nations, when there were seven more letters written, these bearing the name Gentiles on the envelope. In these the apostle writes, is written that which completes the word of God. It is in these letters which God reveals a heavenly family which inherits a heavenly sphere with all spiritual blessings. He calls it, "the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all".
I submit that you not take my word for it, but to search and see if this is a new church, or if it is the same one as before.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Bandit: I wanted to thank you for your post on this subject. I dont have a lot of time right now to post on this subject, but I appreciate your faithfulness to speak against this wrong division of the Word.
John, as always your comments are also right on target. Amen to you both.
May God give strength and courage to those of you who are out there who seek more to know HIS word and the WHOLE counsel of God... what HE says in the scriptures over what men say that he says, may God give you strength and courage to stand against apostasy and it is apostasy that tries to lump people into boxes that are labled "Covenant Theology" or "Pauline Dispensationalism". The truth is that there is another alternative and it is there that truth is found ... rightly dividing the word and understanding that ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine.
God has called to himself ONE people from the beginning through Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and eventually Christ and dispensed Grace and Mercy to them in different ways throughout history - Those whom he calls at this time are called through ONE Gospel and it is the same Gospel taught by Christ and taught by Paul.
Paul and the apostles built ONE church - Jew and Gentile.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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It is interesting the presentation of two gospels lately, James for the people of Israel and Paul for the gentiles. I most say that It does need careful reading in this matter they are presenting in which we the body in this board most watch over but never the less it is a duty to compare all this with the word of God. Like my grandfather use to say, “ don’t be intimidated by much words” use your Sword to divide unto two. Yet I don’t see two gospels in this matter but one for we know that the whole body is one in Christ Jesus, for we have One Savior, One Lord, One God and One Redeemer the Lord Jesus Christ. Few verses come to mind, the first one is:
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
And the others are:
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
While reading this verses I don’t see no indication of two bodies ministers unto but one massage of the One Gospel we have and that is the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
There something interesting in this verse where we read in Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Paul tells us that he was separated unto the Gospel of GOD, and yet we also find the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ mention to be a Gospel. So we see that both the Old and the New Testament have the same Gospel unto salvation.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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timspong
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Terral, sorry even your illustration above does feels like something conjured up from the intellect of man, rather than from God.
1 Cor 3:9
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
KJV
Dosen’t this say we are God’s building, not that we are going to be Gods building?
Eph 2:20-3:1
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV
Here Jesus is the chief cornerstone, ie upon where the foundation is laid, not the capstone (on top) as suggested by the NIV and yourself.
For me it suggests that we grow into an holy temple while here on earth, not in heaven?
Also are the pyramids pagan in origin, why would God build his temple in that shape? Where in the Bible does it suggest that?
I am all for illustrations and analogies, but unless they are from God (like the parables) they will break-down before they can illustrate the absolute truth.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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timspong
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quote:
Originally posted by Terral:
Hi Timspong and Epouraniois (mentioned):
Tim >> If anyone knows of a Christian BBS that isn't plagued with Dispensationalists, please let me know off-line.
Epouranious is pasting his Hyper dribble on these threads, and I quote him and show the errors using Scripture. His views are in the extreme minority here. So why all of this concern about being plagued with Dispensationalists? Their arguments either withstand the test of debate or they do not. Why are you complaining, instead of quoting them and refuting their nonsense? The truth of God’s Living Word has been presented and defended amid persecution by others for thousands of years. What makes you believe our duty to God and His Son is any different today? If you are willing to lay down and whine at the first sign of resistance to your interpretations, then perhaps the problem exists in your own theology or your inability to defend the truth.
How about if everyone here presents their arguments to the best of their God-given abilities and we allow the third party readers to judge us all? Does that sound fair enough to you? The right interpretation is the one saying EXACTLY what God is saying without creating a single contradiction. If you find one contradiction in anything I write, then please bring that to the attention of everyone using Scripture. This side of the Debate will bless you and thank you,
In Christ,
Terral
I would love to debate each and every point, however, I simply do not have the time to do so. It would be easier if posts were "short and sweet" however, just to read some of these long posts takes more time than I have available and I loose interest after the first couple of paragraphs, especially if I feel it to be contrary to what the Lord has put in my heart.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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BORN AGAIN
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brother Terral writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
Therefore, go ahead and poke fun at the interpretations presented for the benefit of everyone here free of charge. God has taken the time to read every word and He stands ready to reward sons diligently seeking Him for each and every speckle of Light in their work. When your place is located near the bottom of that Great Heavenly Dwelling and you look up into the bright Light of His glory, then know voices like these are up there in that Light singing songs of great glory.
I thank God therefore that "in due time, Christ died for all", so that all who believe in Him will be saved, in spite of their respective foibles.
even "out of the mouths of babes"
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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timspong writes quote:
If anyone knows of a Christian BBS that isn't plagued with Dispensationalists, please let me know off-line.
I have been on this CBBS probably for 3 or 4 years, and the CBBS has waves of this or that come thru; eventually each wave dies down to a quiet simmer. Hang in there.
Since so few of us seem to understand these "multiple gospels" and "bride, husband, heavenly this, earthly that", I would think that those presenting this material would eventually get a bit tired of semi-wasting their hyper-typing skills and hyper-knowledge on our "less endowed fingers and brains".
Howbeit, as far as I am concerned, those presenting this material have been and are welcome on this CBBS, like everyone else. Hey, at least the colors of their charts are pretty.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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timspong
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If anyone knows of a Christian BBS that isn't plagued with Dispensationalists, please let me know off-line.
Thanks
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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epouraniois
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I question the foundation of anyone who cannot acknowledge that the Lord sent an apostle to the nations with a message of choosing from before the foundation of the world, and called to a higher (positionally) calling than any calling revealed up to it's revelation. That this calling seperates this church by the very fact that it's calling pre exists that of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's while at the same time extending beyond unto the very fulness of God far above all heavens of heavens in it's sphere of enjoyment.
The Bible makes clear that it is in man's churches where Satan places his ministers, and further makes clear that the people therein shall starve in famine for want of the word of truth as they run to and fro in seeking such truth.
Here, we gather together, to explore that which is written. We do not come here to tell God what He has meant, or to worship Him with our five senses, but we are literally doing that which the church of the one body is so instructed to be doing, every member on equal foundation, able to teach that which they have come to know, for the purpose of the edification of the body as a whole.
When one denies that God has made a new church, after having stated this church has an heavenly calling, then attempts to persuade others that they are Israel, or belong to Israel, or has Israel's things, or graphed into Israel as in the time that is now past, it is highly dubious they understand what is the one hope of His calling.
It is doubtfull an understanding has been prayerfully set forth in that belivers mind, and I believe this to be because they regard what their preacher says above that which God has so written for our learning.
John says there are two spirits at work, the spirit of truth and the spirit of err. Guess which one acknowledges the divisions that God has made, not mixing them together to form 'another gospel'?
Nevertheless, I personally intend to remain as long as the Lord wills, and not be moved towards the deeper teachings of Ephesians and the following prison epistles until it can be acknowledged these foundational doctrine to the church. Only after this acknowledgment has been received can we then move on to the deeper things of God.
As it is written, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit...Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph4. the worthy walk.
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BORN AGAIN
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brother timspong writes quote:
It is unfortunate the dispensational proponents seem to be the most prolific and active member of the forum. I worry about their effect on “new believers” and those that do not have a solid foundation. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
I don't think we need to worry about the new believer or ones without a solid foundation. I am not a new believer and have a fairly solid foundation, but even I do not understand half of what is presented.
I mostly do not understand it because of the method in which it is presented (data overload per Topic/post) and some of it is "advanced" stuff that no new believer will even come to close to understanding. So no need to worry about that, I think.
As for it being "unfortunate" that they are "the most prolific" on this forum, I cannot fault anyone for being very capable and excellent typists/pasters. Hey, we should all be so good.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
So where exactly does this leave people such as my husband who is a Jewish believer in Yeshua the Messiah? Is he not of the One Body?
Each of you are left in the same place where all people were left. An individual in a nation, none having any longer any preeminence over another. It leaves us all as having a glorious membership in the one body. It leaves us setting aside those thing which came before.
This body being a new creation, read Ephesians 2, although chapters one through three are the entire doctrine (shcoolbook); being a new creation, for one to enter therein, if one is of 'that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands', this must be set aside even as Paul had to set his favored position as a Jew had to do. Likewise, "Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision" must set aside their uncircumcision.
When Paul was a minister of the gospel during the Acts he was able to state he was not one whit behind the apostles, but upon entrance into the mystery body the apostle states he now counts all that but dung, and is least of all the saints in this newly revealed kingdom.
Phi 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Perhaps God is revealing even this unto many.
I conclude, personally, by observation, having no indoctrination into anything outside of the Bible itself, no accord with any man made buildings, that Satan is working against both Jew and Gentile, and has been since Paul was imprisoned, to the end that the members of the one body never realize their high calling, taking to themselves that sin of covetness, ever trying to attain that which belongs to another dispensation, one where there were signs, and wonders, and miracles, and angels, and God was working with them.
But the Jewish person has an even larger obstical, because they have not only failed to see the truth that is in Christ, but that God had concluded them under blindness, as it is written,
2Co 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
So, imo, if you or your husband, or indeed, any of us come to the acknowledgment of the truth, it is by the gift of God, it is by prayer, and by overcoming faith that these words in these prison epistles are just as much the word of God as all the rest of the words of God, just as valid, and as they do teach both the differences and the furthest unfolded plan of God, they are our truth for today, and in this church it is being built up of all in absolute equality.
You will find no Jews in this church body. You will find no gentiles in this church body. You will find the members joined together in total and absolute equality with Christ as the it's head, looking for the out resurrection out from amoung the dead, that exanastasis, which is given for the church of the one body to manifest with Christ when He manifest. This will happen in that same twinkling of an eye, yet prior to His coming to the earth.
appearing and coming is not the same thing at all
Study Ephesians 1-3. It is doctrinal. Ephesians 4-6 is practical, that is to say, what the person who has mastered ch's 1-3 puts into practice.
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yahsway
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So where exactly does this leave people such as my husband who is a Jewish believer in Yeshua the Messiah? Is he not of the One Body?
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epouraniois
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Below are a few verses that depict what I am saying, namely that those called during the Acts have been set aside, the mission being completed, and a new 'dispensation' called 'the mystery', or secret was unfolded as truth for today:
Mar 16:20
And they went forth (past tense), and preached every where (as they were commissioned), the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Amen is a word which means, and that's that. This speaks of a commission which reached it's conclusion.
And John writes the same thing:
Joh 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11
He came (past tense) unto his own, and his own received him not (past tense).
John's gospel was written after Acts 28:28. John speaks of the pools still being in the city, which places this between A.D. 64 and A.D. 70.
Christ had come. The world didn't know about it because it didn't know Him. His own received Him not. But we know that the offer to receive Chrsit did not stop upon the cross. Christ said in Luk 24:26, "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?", and again in v. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me".
Afterwards He opens the eyes of their understanding and they asked Him, with understaniding supernaturally opened, in seminar for fourty days with the risen Lord Jesus the Christ, and they ask, Acts 1:6, "wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
The kingdom was the only teaching being set forth during the Acts. John writes that they "received Him not". Mark concludes "they went forth", "the Lord working with them".
Towards the end of the Acts, each of the N.T. writers wrote of the day of decision drawing near,
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise...but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Co 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short
Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain (those yet to repent).
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares...24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
In each case the time was closing when the offer to Israel to receive the kingdom offer (Act 3:18-23).
There was no gentile establish church of the one body made known until Israel either received the kindom, or rejected the kingdom. That was the longsuffering spoken of, it was God awaiting Israel to hear and decide. The individual was each given to hear the gospel message of the forgiveness of God and the repentance unto her kingdom. If they then turned from God after hearing this at the first hearing, God could give them no additional opportunity for repentance (Heb 6:6).
In each letter during the Acts the writer showed they looked for the coming of the Lord.
But after Acts, there is no more talk about that. Nope. This church therein firstly revealed speaks of higher things, heavenly things unbeknownst and hitherto unimagined are made known. The speak is of oneness, and fulness, untiy, in heavens far above all heavens having the completness of the Christ as it's hope in the out resurrection, appearing manifestly when Christ blazes forth in glory from where He is now hidden, in God.
One cannot belong to both the callings during the Acts and also bound into the one body of Ephesians and Colossians, &c.
1Co 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
The Thessolicans could 'see' thier 'calling', but in Ephesians our calling was 'hid in God', and the Holy Spirit gives us the prayer (Eph 1:17>) that our eyes may be enlightened, "that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints".
Clearly, these are but the intoductory differences which distinquish this church body from all other callings. There is much much more which God has given us that we may know that He has drawn the distinctions, but folks mostly only believe what their preachers tell them, so if their preachers have not been made known these differences, they can not teach them. This means that I rarely find the MANY being able to ackonweldge that the instruction for this understanding is found not only in these few epistles, but in prayer, specifically the one given in the verse above. That is why the Holy Spirit says He gave it, and why He says we need it. Because it was a secret hid in God, not in the Bible. It is a new creation, just as it says it is.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Adv.Christian
All who accept Christ are Christians, as I pray we all can agree. I fail to understand the determination to draw a line of separation with in the Christian faith.
Obviously if one or two verses were sufficent, we would be beyond these foundational things by now.
Paul said that many believers were enemies of the cross. How could this be? Well, they refused to keep seperate that which God had made seperate. It is the same today.
Phi 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
Phi 3:18
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phi 3:19
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Phi 3:20
For our conversation (citezenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Chris
Were the believing Jews Christians? Yes.
Were the believing gentiles who heard Christians? Yes.
Are either of these two groups members of the one body? No.
They have their distinct callings and a sure hope in thier particular adoption. Their adoption places them in one of two places, either in the earth or in New Jerusalem, which too, comes to the earth.
Additionally, His body, the church was never introduced until after all Israel had heard and decidedly moved against receiving the Lord and therefore the kingdom, which kingdom has been in abayance for nearly 2,000 years.
It was a kingdom to 'soon come', an 'at hand' kingdom, but now it has been postponed. That demarcation is not made by man, but by God, for it is God that sent an apostle to all nations, and that record is found in Acts 28. 25-28 upon the 3rd and final announcement quoted of Isaiah 6. 9-10.
Only after this occured was the mystery made known. Before the mystery was made known, there was no knowledge that God had kept a secret, but we now read that God had a secret He hid in Himself.
That God is in a war with Satan is known, that God did not tell Satan every portion of His plan is reasonable. That this secret concerns the kingdom of His dear Son is beyond question, as is it's position, that being 'far above all', 'in heavenly places'.
The church of the one body cannot be the same as that of Acts because it's adoption is into the superheavenlies as the saints in light, while the Acts church hope and calling is in the earth and in the heavenly city.
Three spheres of blessings, none of them the same. All different.
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Adv.Christian
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While I admit I may be naive concerning many aspects of my faith, I also proclaim I am a member of the Body of Christ, and have many brothers and sisters through Christ. This being said I have but one question to those teaching the doctrine of duel messages with in the Christian Faith, considering all scripture is given for the edification of the believer how or should I say why do you differentiate between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians?
All who accept Christ are Christians, as I pray we all can agree. I fail to understand the determination to draw a line of separation with in the Christian faith. The Jewish people are indeed God’s chosen people however Christians are the followers of Christ; not Peter, John, James or Paul. We should (and I am) be followers of Christ. To develop a doctrine of Christianity which draws separation of certain aspects of God’s Word where it applies to the Christian faith ( in my opinion) is a to say the least a dangerous endeavor. God has given His Word as a guiding light for His people and all His Word not only certain sections or books.
While I admit I am guilty of possibly being too stubborn in some of my beliefs at times and not granting others the respect they deserve for their God granted insight to scripture, I must admit it saddens me to see intentional (or at least what appears to be intentional) effort to cause strife through arguments over God’s Word. I reference a post from one of the threads I believe was the inspiration for this thread. Justified By Faith Or By Works? quote:
Quote too verses and give us a paragraph of solid commentary and maybe your case will be made in a series of arguments.
As always my love to all and May God Bless.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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epouraniois
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quote:
timspong
I have expressed my similar concerns in earlier posts/threads. It is unfortunate the dispensational proponents seem to be the most prolific and active member of the forum. I worry about their effect on “new believers” and those that do not have a solid foundation.
God is a 'dispensational proponent', wake up. You keep saying these things as if the words are not God's words. Does God not administer His plan, does God not keep His house in order? Does got not send His stewards? Well, all those words are the word dispensation. Dispensatin = administration = orderly house = stewardship for you.
DISPENSATION -=- "oikonomia"
ALSO TRANSLATED:
EDIFYING oikonomia
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Godly dispensation which is in faith: so do.
Dispensation of Grace is one of Faith .
STEWARDSHIP oikonomia
Luk 16:2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. oikonomeō
give an account of thy dispensation
Luk 16:3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
taketh away from me the dispensation
Luk 16:4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
when I am put out of the dispensation
And you have good reason to be concerned, but for your own self, not others. Let's be honest here, if gentiles had no purpose other than what is given, provoking Israel, and had no calling of their own during the Acts, and not given one of thier own until after Acts when Israel is set aside, taking her Lo-ammi period, then this means that it is Satan who is preforming the Pentacostal gifts in your church.
This is your real concern. But the Bible makes no such declaration that any geniltes were present during Pentacost, and further provides that the time when those gifts were evident of a believers acknolwedgment, they too would be set aside as the church of the mystery is made known and given a new list.
So your concern is really a concern that you can't just mix up all the Bible however your minister would like, but that God has instructed that Scriptures must now be rightly divided, and this only after the mystery is made known, only applies to the church of the mystery because there are no other churches being formed by God at the present time.
But I am afraid, my friend, that the Bible is quite clear on this matter. During Acts, gentiles did not have any hope apart from Israel. When God deals with Israel there are miracles. It is like that throughout the O.T., right up till Israel is set aside.
After that, the church is introduced as a secret that God had hid in Himself from ages and from genterations, and there these miracles do not exist. The same way as a list is given during the Acts, one is given for the church that now looks for a heavenly hope and calling, but no miracles are given in this new list for this new church body.
So your fear is for yourself being deceived and you do not wish to believe that to have been possible, but alas, it is always that way when we believe our teachers and do not weight them against the rule of Scripture.
And this is what it always boils down to, attack the messenger because people cannot deal with the message.
May we all search and see in the name of the Lord Christ Jesus.
Differences:
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
When we see these words, ‘For this cause’, we immediately realize that this refers to something that has gone before. And this is the case here, and especially referring to the chapter before.
Paul has been describing a church here, that is reconciled, at peace, blessed far above all that is flesh, and the strife that is found in the flesh, and built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone. And this building is growing together that it might be an habitation for the Spirit. There are immediately 5 things that are unique and readily discernible. They are different than anything else we’ve ever found in the Bible before.
1.Blessings that were promised are unique, because it is every blessing that is spiritual. That is different than they'd ever had before because they'd never had every blessing that is spiritual.
2.And the sphere of their enjoyment is unique, because the enjoyment is in heavenly places, whereas every blessing before this had always been spoken of as being enjoyed on the earth.
3.The period of choice is unique, because these were chosen before the overthrow of the world, whereas all other choosing had been since the overthrow.
4.The position is unique, made to sit together in heavenly places, in Christ. That is a high and unique position.
5.The unity is unique. Back in 2. 15, that the twain, the Jew and the Gentile, were created one new man.
It is all these things that Paul has in mind, when he starts out to say, “For this cause”. It is everything Paul has already been speaking about in the first two chapters of the first letter written after Israel takes her place amidst the nations, departing to have great reasoning among themselves. (Acts 28.28, 29).
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epouraniois
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quote:
BornAgain
Jesus came to His vineyard to preach repentance and the acceptable year of the LORD only to the people of Israel because He was giving Israel one last chance to repent from no longer believing in the LORD.
One last chance??? They believed in the Lord. They always believed in the Lord, but they had to fulfill the Scriptures. They did so by failing to recognize the Lord. His person and His works. So you don't think Christ came to fulfill all things written in the Scriptures concerning Him? Nor do you think Israel was given a further opportunity during the Acts? Nor do you see an additional opportunity during the 1,000 year reigning on the earth for the teaching of the word of God to all nations? Surely you have spoken too quickly, and without including many other verses pertaining to the purpose of God as Israel is concerned?
quote:
The olive tree is still called "Israel" but now consists of believing Israelites and of believing Gentiles who have been "grafted in" to the "Israel of God".
The olive tree was used in figure, and in that figure the same was cut down, it matters not that some of the branches were removed, it matters not that some were graphed in contrary to nature, it is a history lesson of what then occurred.
We are not now standing outside the synogague's middle wall of partition as they were, provoking Israel to emmulation, with every believer showing forth evidentual signs, wonders, and miracles of our faith the was they were. No, the church called His body is a new creation just as the Bible states. If we make it different than what is written then is cannot be from the spirit of truth that we do this terrible thing.
G2936
κτίζω
ktizō
ktid'-zo
Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): - create, Creator, make.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make (ktizō0) in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
If Israel had received, then the gentiles would have been led to the Lord for their own hope and blessings, but as that DIDNOT happen, gentiles were not given their own hope or calling, they were simply used to provoke Israel. Nothing else. There is no doctrine for any gentiles during that time to have a particular walk of worthiness OTHER THAN TO GIVE ALMS. Why weren't they given ther own doctrine? Because theyb could only partake of Israel's spriitual things, meaning, they were not expected to bear fruit, they were graphed in un naturally, they could only participate in resurrection.
Now, after Israel is set aside a new creation is established in Eph 2, and these now are given a doctrine leading to a worthy walk. During the Acts no gentile believer had any hope apart from Israel, there isn't one verse saying so, therefore we should not add it in.
quote:
Why the "Israel of God"? Because since 70 A.D., the Son of the LORD YHWH of Israel, the Son who is God Yahshua-Jesus, took over the administration of "Israel" and therefore the church is called the "Israel of God".
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
This graphing in does not make the wild olives good olives, does not make those gentiles natural branches. At best, and that is what God give us here, at best, they are partakers only, not equals, which any of the Acts period epistles show forth;
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Partakers of the root, the root being Christ, but this in resurrection, for certaily they remained seperate and outside of Israel in the flesh, as Ephians 2 makes so clear.
As far as the Israel of God is an issue here, I can only state the same as before, that the verse is contrasting the Israel of the flesh with the believers, the overcomers of Israel, who manifested themselves to be of that remnant who could be called the Israel of God. But there is the gentile company mentioned in the same verse, as they were overcomers as well.
quote:
Not in the way of the Gentiles until after the first Israel had a chanec to repent and choose Him, or not. After that, the empty spaces in the olive tree of Israel were filled in by believing Gentiles.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
But this turning was not to preach to the gentiles apart from Israel, no, it was to provoke Israel thereby. Again, this foreshadows the gentile indeed being given a seperate hope and calling, but this does not manifest out of the plan of God until after Acts is over and done with.
During the Acts, there is one commission, and it can be found at the end of Mark16, and in Acts 2 where Peter declares, 'this is that'. And if you then turn to Joel to see what that that this is, you will not find any gentiles there.
Again, right up until the very last of the last of the writings during the Acts, Paul is in chains for the hope of Israel. Not any other or additional hope, but the hope of Israel.
After Acts, all this is set aside and the church is introduced as a new creation. It is the only church in Sripture not associated with the earth, with Israel, with angels, with the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
It it the only church assiciated with Chrsit as it's head. So closely is this new church associated to Christ that we read it is His body. This church is the only church associated with His inheritance in the saints in light. This church is the only church associated with being seated with Him far above all. The church is the only body associated with the heavenly places. This church is the only church being given every blessing that is spiritual that the Lord has to give, and these are found in the heavenly places, not in the earth, and not in the heavenly city. This church is the only church likened to a full grown male husband.
This church is not the same as the many different churches we read about during the Acts period.
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timspong
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I have expressed my similar concerns in earlier posts/threads. It is unfortunate the dispensational proponents seem to be the most prolific and active member of the forum. I worry about their effect on “new believers” and those that do not have a solid foundation.
We also have to remember that this is an open forum with little or no screening of potential members. Although we hope all have pure intensions and are “saved”, some may not be saved and others may well have mental health issues etc.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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BORN AGAIN
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brother epouraniois, you write quote:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
And Christ Himself said He only came for His people Israel, and told them to not go in the way of the gentiles. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
Why did Messiah Jesus only go to His people Israel? For the simple reason that since the days of Abraham, the Creator of heaven and earth made a nation starting with Abraham, to whom "pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.
Jesus came to His vineyard to preach repentance and the acceptable year of the LORD only to the people of Israel because He was giving Israel one last chance to repent from no longer believing in the LORD.
The LORD who had now sent His Son to the vineyard to gather the fruits thereof, of whom the Israelites in the parable had said, "this is the heir, let us kill him and take the place for ourselves." (paraphrased)
That is why John the Baptist preached repentance and the coming kingdom of God, and Jesus preached that and the 12 apostles preached repentance and the coming kingdom of God or of heaven, and the 70 disciples preached that, all to Israel, to see who in Israel would rejoin the LORD God of Israel: all others would be destroyed in 70 A.D. or sold into slavery if they survived.
Those Israelites who did not believe in the Messiah as the Representative of the LORD God of Israel, were "cut out of the olive tree of Israel."
After that, there were numerous openings and unfilled places on the tree, and now Paul was sent to the Gentiles to fill in those empty spaces in the olive tree of Israel".
The olive tree is still called "Israel" but now consists of believing Israelites and of believing Gentiles who have been "grafted in" to the "Israel of God".
Why the "Israel of God"? Because since 70 A.D., the Son of the LORD YHWH of Israel, the Son who is God Yahshua-Jesus, took over the administration of "Israel" and therefore the church is called the "Israel of God".
However, because the difficult tasks that the LORD God of Israel had given to the Israelites to be and act out, the LORD will cause all the house of Israel and all the house of Judah who ever lived to come up out of their graves and to "come into the land of Israel"
Ezekiel 36
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, where they went.
22 Therefore say to the house of Israel, thus says the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the heathen, where you went.
23And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which you have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, says the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your filthiness and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
In other words, the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be just like the Christians, the church, the Israel of God, are now.
We will merge into one Israel of God, under the administration of the Prince Yahshua-Jesus who will rule from His holy portion.
It may be that the church Israel of God will serve Him in His holy portion for having believed Him, while the 12 tribes of Israel will not dwell in their holy portions but in the locations in the land of Israel apportioned to them in Ezekiel 48.
So brother epouraniois, that's how I see these two verses:
quote:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
And Christ Himself said He only came for His people Israel, and told them to not go in the way of the gentiles. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
Not in the way of the Gentiles until after the first Israel had a chanec to repent and choose Him, or not. After that, the empty spaces in the olive tree of Israel were filled in by believing Gentiles.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
And Christ Himself said He only came for His people Israel, and told them to not go in the way of the gentiles.
And this is the crux of the understanding issue.
During the Acts, the purpose was made known, as in the verse above. It was a kingdom hope and that for Israel. It was not some new and unknown kingdom. It was the same O.T. kingdom Christ preached. Israel's kingdom. The only one they knew anything about. The time period lasted some 35 years. Eventually all Israel had heard, but dismissed the offer to realize the kingdom in resurrection. Israel was then blinded and the church introduced.
Wait, back up. There were some gentiles being used during the Acts. This was a foreshadowing of what would happen if Israel did not take her kingdom position and receive her Messiah, Christ Jesus.
So there were 7 of Paul's epistles written during the Acts. Plus, Peter, James, John, and Jude.
All of these letters are written for the hope of Israel. Gentiles could play no part in it. Israel was the dominate and chosen channel at that time.
After Acts, Paul was given further revelation, and then wrote seven more epistles. It is only in these epistles where gentiles find ourselves given an apostle specifically sent to us with a detailed instruction (doctrine), a detailed hope and calling, and what constitutes a worthy walk (practice).
It was not revealed during the Acts that God had kept any information from anyone, but here we find He did keep to Himself a secret (the word mystery).
It is to this church that this mystery, or secret, applies. What came before was set aside when Israel's hope and calling were suspended by thier own disbelief.
We live in the time that now is. We do not live back before Christ and were never called Jews. We do not live in the kingdom re offering up to Israel as they did during the Acts either. We live in that period of time only revealed after the Acts period had reached it's conclusion. And God concluded them all in disbelief.
Paul said in Acts that "almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded...much people", but after Acts concludes, he says all in Asia had turned away from him and that only Luke was with him.
John says there is the spirit of truth, and spirit of error. I can acknolwedge that the church of Ephesians, Colossians, and so forth were written to a church body hitherto unbeknownest or contemplated before it was made known after Acts had concluded itself.
I believe that if we ignore this, attempting to merge this with other parts of God's Word, and taking what was written to Israel as if it is all the same thing, then we cannot be rightly dividing the word of truth, and will be found a workman ashamed. The only way to not be ashamed then, is to rightly divided it.
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BORN AGAIN
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brother Wetshoes, I really liked your comments/additions to Bandit's Topic. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
You write quote:
The idea of “debate” underscores the fact that there exists divisions in thought. Christianity has more of this than almost any other social structure because it is so often abused. However necessary debate might be – is made moot when debate becomes a sport! A format such as a web board becomes a playing board for some. Scripture becomes little more than playing cards to trump another point of view and the whole subject being “debated” is lost in egos.
What amazes me is that they are such good typists. ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
with love, BORN AGAIN
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