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Author
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Topic: another cult / Berean Bible Society
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
At the time of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 there were still many Jewish Christians who believed that the Gentiles must accept circumcision and the Law of Moses before they could be Christians. But at the council it was shown that God was working through Paul and Barnabas to save Gentiles as Gentiles. They were not saved by the Law, but by Grace, a free gift from God. James concluded that Gentiles need only obey the 4 rules he stated in Acts.
The Gospel of Grace was for Gentiles who would not be required to be circumcised or obey the whole Law of Moses.
After 70 AD, no one could truly obey the Law of Moses because there was no temple and no priesthood.
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
WildB , I am trying to understand this new thing that Paul is teaching that is suppose to be different than what Jesus taught, can I use the whole book of 2 Timothy or are there certain verses I should leave out?
Does the Berean Bible Society except 2 Timothy as acceptable for the Gentile dispensation of Grace?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
I respectfully ask Dale to delet this post.
Of coarse after great prayer.
Delet this post.
I am my Lords.
And I die daily for my people.
I never thought I would get it from the back.
I will forgive you "if" you forgive me.
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That is all.....
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Bill edited my quote within his quote to read:
quote:
WildB
Advanced Member
Member # 2917
posted October 28, 2010 04:22 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by barrykind:
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Why do you post this ? Its offensive and gay when followed by your spamming.
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Posts: 3705 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Bill your exposed sir!
So are you tapping Me on the shoulder for a dance?
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Bill edited my quote within his quote to read:
quote:
WildB
Advanced Member
Member # 2917
posted October 28, 2010 04:22 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by barrykind:
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Why do you post this ? Its offensive and gay when followed by your spamming.
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That is all.....
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Posts: 3705 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Bill your exposed sir!
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Why do you post this ? Its offensive and gay when followed by your spamming.
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That is all.....
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Carol posted:
quote:
Rudeness is not limited to vocabulary. What you said here about WildB is very rude.
quote:
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But i posted what was wrong with the Berean bible Society, and you and Carol still dont get it...................Discounting everything but Paul's writings is ludicrous!
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You're the one who's ludicrous. It was Paul who wrote this!
2 Timothy 3:16 - 17 (NASB)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
What we don't get is why you say they discount everything but Paul's writings when Paul said, and THEY say, all scripture is profitable.
Paul was knocked off his legalistic, judgmental high-horse and saved by grace. You will be too if you are sincere.
First :
Carol was Yahushua rude when He stated:
Luke 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
John 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables
Next:
Rest of your post stated:
quote:
You're the one who's ludicrous. It was Paul who wrote this!
2 Timothy 3:16 - 17 (NASB)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
What we don't get is why you say they discount everything but Paul's writings when Paul said, and THEY say, all scripture is profitable.
Paul was knocked off his legalistic, judgmental high-horse and saved by grace. You will be too if you are sincere.
i did not say you, nor wild, were ludicrous;[although you did call me ludicrous] i stated that discounting all but Pauls writings is "ludicrous"...i know they quote "All scripture is given for profit..tim 3: 16-17; but they say if you would read the writings of Stam, and J.C. O'Hair...they state that those other writings are for the Jews; not for the "church" today which is in the "dispensation" of Grace!
They quote the scripture but preach "ANOTHER" "GOSPEL" !
sister......
more later..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Ephesians 3
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
quote:
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Notice #1.....the mystery given to Paul:
verse 4.
Notice #2 It is NOT of private interpetation to Paul ONLY! Verse 5
And also please note That the mystery revealed is:
verse 6
quote:
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Grace
“Grace is what God may be free to do, and indeed what he does, accordingly, for the lost after Christ has died on behalf of them” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, 7:178).
It is thus apparent that God’s grace is to be distinguished from His mercy and love (Ephesians 2:4-5), “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).”
Mercy is therefore the compassion of God that moved Him to provide a Savior for the unsaved. Had God been able to save even one soul on the ground of His sovereign mercy alone, He could have saved every person on that basis, as Lewis Sperry Chafer points out, and the death of Christ would not have been a necessity.
Divine love on the other hand is the motivating plan behind all that God does in saving a soul. But since God is holy and righteous, and sin is a complete offense to Him, His love or His mercy cannot operate in grace until there is provided a sufficient satisfaction for sin.
This satisfaction makes possible the exercise of God’s grace. Grace thus rules out all human merit. It requires only faith in the Savior. Any intermixture of human merit violates grace.
God’s grace thus provides not only salvation but safety and preservation for the one saved, despite his imperfections. Grace perfects forever the saved one in the sight of God because of the saved one’s position “in Christ.”
Grace bestows Christ’s merit and Christ’s standing forever (Romans 5:1-2; 8:1; Colossians 2:9-10); “for in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete.” Grace thus obviates any obligation to gain merit, and the law as a merit system is no longer applicable to a believer, since he is no longer “under law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14).
The problem of a holy life is met in the gospel of grace by the fact that the saved one has an entirely new position in grace instead of in Adam (Romans 5:12-20). And being baptized “into Christ” (Romans 6:1-11), he is “dead to sin, but alive to God.” Knowledge of and faith in this glorious in-Christ position (Romans 6:11) is the key that makes it actual in the believer’s everyday experience.
Rewards for faithfulness and practical holiness of life are to be dispensed, but this is a truth not to be confused with an unforfeitable and unmerited salvation.
(Unger's)
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB, you say the Berean Bible Society is not a cult, I say it is ....I think we may be able to settle this with a simple definition.
please give me your / their definition of Saving Grace?
Ephesians 2:4 - 10 (NASB) 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together £with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
1. We are saved by GRACE—Eph. 2:8,9.
2. We are justified freely by His GRACE—Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7.
3. His GRACE is sufficient for us—II Cor. 12:9.
4. We are not under Law but under GRACE—Rom. 6:14,15.
5. This age is the age of GRACE —Eph. 3:2.
6. We are to approach the throne of GRACE in prayer—Heb. 4:16.
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
you sure erase a lot of posts Billy boy
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Barry , Because explain this verse 2 the best of your wisdom.
Wisdom is doing this day that u 2 can live with tomorrow.
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
A man that answers too quick, to me is not wise...some things require prayer and patience!
and i can really appreciate that sir...
You take as long as neccessary, for the LORd to speak to your heart..
Thankyou for your honesty and love for the truth!
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
o by the waqy bill, i know you misspell things on purpose... ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Bill states:
quote:
as i am not a very lernid person, i would like time 2 talk to our Christ befor i post.
That is wisdom sir and i can certainly RESPECT that!
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
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That is all.....
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB, you say the Berean Bible Society is not a cult, I say it is ....I think we may be able to settle this with a simple definition.
please give me your / their definition of Saving Grace?
as i am not a very lernid person, i would like time 2 talk to our Christ befor i post.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
WildB, you say the Berean Bible Society is not a cult, I say it is ....I think we may be able to settle this with a simple definition.
please give me your / their definition of Saving Grace?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
Linda has been gone for quite awhile. I miss her too and pray for her when God brings her to my mind.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
changed jobs since we last spoke. Better job and much better pay, although now its 12 hour shifts.
7p-7a, oh well.
had minor surgery Last week so i am off work a few days and have had some time to catch up here with you guys.
i miss helpforhomeschoolers, does she ever frequent this bbs?
Luv ya too you crazy thang!
Manny do in the back grounds but don't wan't the aggravation of the argument anymore.
The Bleacher Creachers of the baseball fans world.
God appointed down time works wonders 4 the soul.
Enjoy and smell the roses.lol
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
changed jobs since we last spoke. Better job and much better pay, although now its 12 hour shifts.
7p-7a, oh well.
had minor surgery Last week so i am off work a few days and have had some time to catch up here with you guys.
i miss helpforhomeschoolers, does she ever frequent this bbs?
Luv ya too you crazy thang!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
WildB, LOl,you haven't changed a bit my friend!
Luv ya,
no poop,lol!
Buy me air conditioned honda!
Nows the nursing doing ya?
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
Christians often have to work on Saturday and Sunday. There was a time when I had to work to take care of my children. I worked in a hospital and I worked on Sundays. I felt guilty at first, but I begin to see how I could show the love of Christ to the patients that had to be there on Sunday. Now I am blessed not to work and I worship God in my Church on Sundays.
We have to be careful not to judge those who work on Sunday or Saturday. Remember Jesus said if a sheep fell in a ditch on the Sabbath, a person would pick it up out of the ditch. If our house catches on fire we would call the fire department to come on Saturday or Sunday. It has been said many many times here that Jesus is our Sabbath and that days were made for man not man for days. We as Christians should honor Jesus every day. Sometimes honoring Christ is working physically for a widow or shut in. I have seen my dad who has now past on work Saturday and Sunday fixing things for widows after putting in a 40 hour week at his job. I have seen him come home from Church on Sunday and then take a motor out of the Church buss and work on it. We can honor God in many ways including working.
We need Christian firemen, police office and military.
My problem with Barry is his arrogance. It comes out in his post all the time. We should not take pride in what day we worship. What good is worship to God if we then use that worship to fill our hearts with pride and look down on others? Does God take pleasure on someone who does that?
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
"i was not a backslidden sunday schooler, i was a vile sinner, and he[barry] whom HE forgave much, also loved much... Jan 18, 1983........"
Why your still wet behind the ears son.
Me a 17 yearold dropout living on the streets waiting for my enlistment papers to go thru, was filled with the Spirit 10,27,1975..then went to boot camp training 3 days later.
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Betty States:
quote:
agree with very little Barry post. He thinks we still have to obey the Old Testament laws. He thinks that we should worship on Saturday and he believes we need works added to grace to be saved. Nope, Barry and I do not see eye to eye. Barry, bless his sweet little heart feels he is somehow a better Christian because of what he believes. He still refused to tell me how he is doing the animal sacrifices, which was a requirement of Old Testament laws.
betty
1) Comment : you said i believe we have to obey OT Laws...Thats a "loaded" question Sister, if i was to say no we dont have to obey Old Testemant Laws, then i would be saying its ok to steal, covet whats thy neighbors, its ok to take God's name in vain, etc....
If i were to say yes i believe that we have to keep the OT Laws..then im branded a "legalist"!
You give me no way to win, nor be right in your eyes.... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Yahushua stated: If you say you love me and keep not my commandments, then your a liar!
2) quote:
He thinks that we should worship on Saturday
Yes i do, and Mon, tues, weds, thurs, Friday, and Sunday also.... I posted "remember" the sabbath and "keep" it Holy...i think just that, on the Sabbath [Fri nite to sat night], we should cease from our labors, take time to teach the family about Yahweh, and the things Yahushua taught...Did not tell anyone thier not saved for not doing it; thats between them and the Father.
3) quote:
he believes we need works added to grace to be saved.
Its the unmerited [favor]; GRACE of YHWH that any of us were ever called:....HE said "many" are called "few" are chosen.....He [yahushua] by HIS MERCY AND GRACE of the Father [YHWH], that we were called......All have gone out of the way, book says, no man seeketh after the heart of YHWH, NO NOT ONE!
So by Mercy, Grace alone we were called, then what happens....REPENTANCE; GODLY SORROW; usally tears.......A person under convition of the HOLY SPIRIT...usally falls on thier face and cries out to a merciful God ..save me, for i am undone, lost, a sinner....THE WORD OF YHWH pricked thier heart, and caused them to want to REPENT [turn away] from thier sin and cry out for forgiveness..
What then, This is where i dont see eye to eye with Charles Stanley et,el;
When one has done [not exactly] but something of the above....YHWH places His Spirit inside that one. "Born Again" from above, my goodness..When this happened to me my WHOLE "want to" changed!
i was not a backslidden sunday schooler, i was a vile sinner, and he[barry] whom HE forgave much, also loved much... Jan 18, 1983........
When one is "born again" "saved" received YHWH's Spirit; they cant do enough for YHWH...Nothing is too hard, HE cannot ask too much...
This is where James comes into:
Show me your faith without your works and i will show you my faith BY my WORKS!
Faith without WORKS is DEAD, being alone:
i was already saved before the "works" of James came into play...
The real problem with WORKS is "The works of the LAW"...that cannot nor will not EVER save anyone; because we cannot keep the whole LAW!
The Law is good, it was a school MASTER to show me to look for a Messiah, an advocate, a scapegoat, some one to pay the price for me!....
There was no one, until YHWH sent HIS SON Yahushua the Messiah HaMashiach!
They examined HIM 3-4 days at the same time the Pharasee were examining the Passover lamb, He paid a debt HE did not owe, and i had a debt i could not pay!
4) quote:
Barry and I do not see eye to eye. Barry, bless his sweet little heart feels he is somehow a better Christian because of what he believes.
This is simply not true [unless my heart deceives me] Yah Forbid!... i truly love yall and trying to show what i see and how i see things..........
5) quote:
He still refused to tell me how he is doing the animal sacrifices, which was a requirement of Old Testament laws.
betty
Sorry not intentional...i do not do animal sacrifices, nor do i think that we are suppose to:
there are truly some 613 laws, commandments, statutes and judgements in the Torah.
Hebrews tells me that once Yahshua died on the Cross, animal sacrifices are no longer used, because we have a perfect sacrifice, the blood of bulls and goats never forgave sin; it "covered" sin. Yahushua not only forgave all past sins at the time of my conversion, upon conviction of the Holy Spirit, i repent, ask forgiveness and our advocate pleads our case with the Father [YHWH].
The "Law", "commandments" are written on my heart!
"Ten", and anything else the Father puts on my heart>
I think i have explained this before, i do not eat pork...Why? i feel YHWH put it on my heart not to..none of my immediate family has eaten any pork for around 15 yrs. [Once again, i did not tell anyone to eat or not to eat pork]
Do i think that "work" saves me; well if i really believe that YHWH told me not to eat pork, [or what ever YHWH leads me to do or not to do],would it not be at least "rebellion" which is as the sin of witchcraft to YHWH?
i was called a liar here. Now i do not think that i have lied at all, and no one has shown any evidence of a wilful lie that i have told here.
Even if i did tell a lie, that does not make one a liar....If one tells a lie, and repents he is clear with YHWH. One that wilfully, lies, and becomes a liar..He is not going to heaven folks!
All LIARS have thier part in the LAKE OF FIRE! The SECOND DEATH...to call on a liar is a very serious offense, worse that calling thy brother a FOOL!
Another reason OSAS cant be right, because if one coninually lies, and has no repentance, and becomes what YHWH calls a LIAR, he will not enter heaven!
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
i think i answered all your statements and questions..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
WildB, LOl,you haven't changed a bit my friend!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
I agree with very little Barry post. He thinks we still have to obey the Old Testament laws. He thinks that we should worship on Saturday and he believes we need works added to grace to be saved. Nope, Barry and I do not see eye to eye. Barry, bless his sweet little heart feels he is somehow a better Christian because of what he believes. He still refused to tell me how he is doing the animal sacrifices, which was a requirement of Old Testament laws.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I have been away for some time now and have read a lot of the post here and have to say that just from reading Wildb has been rude ect..
I do not agree with everyone here on their post but do agree with what BarryKind said. sory if that offends but its just based on what i have read here.
On the subject of Paul and what He said about "all SCRIPTURE being profitable" ect.., he was speaking of the Old Test and its entirety. There was no New Test cannon at that time. This was a letter he wrote to Timothy speaking of the only Scriptures they had at that time.
And re-read what he actually says about the Old Test "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for "teaching", for reproof, for correction, "for training in righteousness",so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
This Paul says of the Entire Old Testament. It wan't until the Nicean Council got together and added the writings of the apostles to the Old test scriptures thus calling these writings the New test. This was done sometime in 300AD.
Long time no hear from . You are right I am a trained military person and not a skilled teacher at all.
and i want to pinch Berry on his 3 rdeth cheaketh.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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2 Timothy was written during Paul's second imprisonment in Rome, shortly before his death, around AD 68. The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written before AD 60. 2 Peter was written about AD 64.
But the point is not what Paul was specifically referring to in 2 Timothy. The point is that Paul said all scripture is profitable, so Pauline Christianity must take that into account.
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Betty Louise
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thank you Yahsway. I just wanted to make sure.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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yahsway
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Betty, of course i did if you read my post. remember i preach the gospel to the Jew, i must as Paul did use the Old Test scriptures to point them to Christ. This is what they use today just like all those in Jesus day used.
But of course it is by his Holy Word and the Holy Spirit that convicts anyone, wouldn't you agree?
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Betty Louise
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yahsway,
You did not answer my question. Do you believe the New Testament is the inspired Word of God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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yahsway
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Carole, of course by the time 2 Peter was written, Pauls letters were viewed as COMPARABLE with the rest of the Scriptures, that being said though, Paul was not referring to his letters to Timothy but was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures.
If we read Romans 15:4 we get a little better understanding
"For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope."
but lets back up a little 2 Timothy 3:15
"and that from Childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures(Old Test), which are able to make you wise for salvation through Faith which is in Christ Jesus"
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them(Old Test) you think you have eternal life; and these are they (Old Test) which testify of Me"
Paul taught the gospel from the Old Test Scriptures.
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Betty Louise
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Yahsway,
Do you believe that the New Testament is the inspired Word of God?
As far as Barry, he has talked down to Carol, Wildb and I for so long. He thinks he is a super Christian and the rest of us are less then he is. He has been rude long before we lost our temper and got rude with him.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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When Paul spoke of all Scripture, he was primarily referring to the Old Testament, since it was complete at that time. But the scope of Paul’s assertion would include any writing that was considered authoritative enough to be read in church meetings, which by the end of the first century would have included the four Gospels and Paul’s writings. According to 2 Peter 3:15-16, Paul’s writings were classified as “Scriptures.”
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yahsway
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I have been away for some time now and have read a lot of the post here and have to say that just from reading Wildb has been rude ect..
I do not agree with everyone here on their post but do agree with what BarryKind said. sory if that offends but its just based on what i have read here.
On the subject of Paul and what He said about "all SCRIPTURE being profitable" ect.., he was speaking of the Old Test and its entirety. There was no New Test cannon at that time. This was a letter he wrote to Timothy speaking of the only Scriptures they had at that time.
And re-read what he actually says about the Old Test "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for "teaching", for reproof, for correction, "for training in righteousness",so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
This Paul says of the Entire Old Testament. It wan't until the Nicean Council got together and added the writings of the apostles to the Old test scriptures thus calling these writings the New test. This was done sometime in 300AD.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
I tell you Betty; if i knew nothing about the Berean Bible Society except wildBill was one i would run from it..He is obnoxious, rude, name calling, in considerate person that i have ever seen on this board in the 8 years + ive been here!
Rudeness is not limited to vocabulary. What you said here about WildB is very rude.
quote:
But i posted what was wrong with the Berean bible Society, and you and Carol still dont get it...................Discounting everything but Paul's writings is ludicrous!
You're the one who's ludicrous. It was Paul who wrote this!
2 Timothy 3:16 - 17 (NASB)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
What we don't get is why you say they discount everything but Paul's writings when Paul said, and THEY say, all scripture is profitable.
Paul was knocked off his legalistic, judgmental high-horse and saved by grace. You will be too if you are sincere.
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barrykind
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ENOUGH SAID!
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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I tell you Betty; if i knew nothing about the Berean Bible Society except wildBill was one i would run from it..He is obnoxious, rude, name calling, in considerate person that i have ever seen on this board in the 8 years + ive been here!
He does not answer with scripture or explaining scripture he answers with silly childish remarks that makes me question his sanity, and salvation..
enough said..be happy with them if you like...
But i posted what was wrong with the Berean bible Society, and you and Carol still dont get it...................Discounting everything but Paul's writings is ludicrous!
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Betty Louise
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So, Barry you are now a Church of Christ/SDA.
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.
You cannot prove Berean Bible Society is a cult so you just keep throwing out stuff hoping something will hit the fence.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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barrykind
You keep talking arithmetic, while Paul taught calculus. No wonder you can't understand GRACE.
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barrykind
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Ephesians 3 and Hyper-Dispensationalism
07/18/2010 - Jamin Hubner
Ephesians 3 is a key text for hyper-dispensationalists because it marks the beginning of the Dispensation of Grace.[1] Paul unveils the mystery of the church, and this ends the ancient Dispensation of Law and introduces a new structure, a new gospel, and a new basis for doctrine in the church. It also suggests (according to them) the absolute distinctiveness of the Apostle Paul.
It is therefore important that we observe the full context, which is found below. The text is in the NASB, with the Greek word οἰκονομίαν (“dispensation” in KJV) in bold:
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; (Ephesians 3:1-9, NASB, bold mine)
Clearly, the mystery being talked about in verse 2 is unveiled in verse 6: “that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” It was a surprise to the New Testament Jews (like Paul) to learn that the good news promised for thousands of years in the Old Testament wasn’t just for Jews; it was for anyone who believes. The promises that were given to Israel don’t just apply to them; they apply to Gentiles as well. The promises of God in the Old Covenants are now applicable for all whom Jesus Christ intercedes. That’s it. That’s the mystery in Ephesians 3.
Of course, this isn’t the only mystery in Paul’s letters. He uses the same word (μυστήριον) in Colossians 1:25-27 where the meaning is generally same, but there is more elaboration; the mystery involves the fact that “Christ is in you, the hope of glory.” Thus, at its heart, the “mystery” is Paul’s way of describing unique features of the New Covenant.
Finck comments:
The Mystery is not found in Old Testament Scriptures, or to be even more precise, Old Testament Scripture or pre-Old Testament Scripture. You will not find the Mystery in Genesis; you won't find it all the way through the Old Testament; you won't find it in the Four Gospels. It was a secret. It was not revealed until the Apostle Paul… What does the Mystery include? The Mystery includes this present Dispensation of Grace. You won't find this dispensation revealed in the Old Testament. It's not there. The Mystery includes the fact that Jew and Gentile are brought together on equal ground, equal footing in Christ. That is the Mystery. You won't find that in Old Testament Scriptures.[2]
One can see how Finck automatically assumes that “mystery” = “dispensation of grace.” The reality, however, is that Paul’s mystery is nothing more than one of the numerous and unique features of the New Covenant. So, what about the mystery and the OT? Robert Reymond decisively replies to the dispensationalist:
The Old Testament did testify concerning the future blessings which the Gentiles would share with the Jews (see Gen. 9:26-27; 12:3 [see Gal. 3:8]; 22:18; 26:4; 28;14; Pss. 67; 72:8-11, 17; 87; Isa. 11:10; 49:6; 54:1-3 [see Gal. 4:27]…). What was not so clearly revealed in the Old Testament times was that the Gentiles would be on “a footing of perfect equality” (Hendriksen) with the Jews in Christ’s body, the church…Paul’s statements do not teach the radical conclusions which dispensationalists wish to draw from them, namely, that the Old Testament saints did not know that the Messiah would be rejected and suffer or that a distinction must be drawn between Old Testament Israel “under law” and the New Testament church “under grace,” and that these people are two people of God who are “not to be intermingled or confused, as they are chronologically successive.”[3]
The Mystery Revealed to Paul Only?
Hyper-dispensationalists believe that the “Mystery” was given to and unveiled by the Apostle Paul and him alone. However, this assertion is a bit problematic.
In Ephesians 3, Paul says the “mystery,” (v. 3) “has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets,” (v. 6). All of the New Testament authors understand the mystery because they are “in the Spirit.” This obviously includes Paul, since he says “which was given to me.” However, Paul doesn’t exclude everyone else. He says “prophets,” not “I, Paul, a prophet.” He says “apostles,” not “I, Paul, the only apostle.” Colossians 1:26 bears the same conclusion: “the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.” The mystery Paul is talking about was not revealed to him only, but to other Christians.
The hyper-dispensationalist cannot believe this. To concede on this point would be to forfeit the “absolute distinctiveness of the Apostle Paul” for which Hyper-Dispensationalism was founded. Hence,
We are sometimes asked: "Did not others before Paul speak of grace?" Yes, others before Paul did speak of grace, but before we assume too much from this, let us consider a few basic facts: It is not merely Paul, but the inspired Word which declares that "the dispensation of the grace of God" was committed to him (Eph. 3:2) and that it was his "ministry... received of the Lord Jesus" to make known "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24). This claim was made for none of his predecessors, nor did any of them even mention the dispensation or the gospel of the grace of God so far as the record is concerned.[4]
How does the hyper-dispensationalist deal with the plural “prophets and apostles” in Ephesians 3:2 and “saints” in Colossians 1:26? We’re simply not told. It is just assumed that Paul is the one actually revealing the mystery (active), not the one observing it (passive) in seeing the church unfold as Christianity continues to grow in the first century (i.e. "so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known" Eph. 3:10) and in Christ himself ("This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord" 3:11).
In any case, because hyper-dispensationalists believe the Apostle Paul was the first and only person to discover “the mystery,” it is suggested that Paul is introducing an entirely new gospel. This conclusion, along with the other serious errors of Hyper-Dispensationalism, will be dealt with in the next post.
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[1] This isn’t necessarily true of all hyper-dispensationalists. Some believe the Dispensation of grace begins at Pentecost, others in Acts 13, and still others in Acts 28:28.
[2] Finck, The Mystery, 23.
[3] Robert Reymond. A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1998), 540-41.
[4] Cornelius Stam. “Paul, the Apostle of Grace.” August/September, 2002
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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“Hyper-dispensationalism” is characterized by making a sharp division between the ministry of Christ and that of the Apostles, and of further dividing Paul’s teaching from that of Peter and the other apostles. Some of the well-known teachers of hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism are E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker. There are many varieties of hyper-dispensationalism, but the following are some of the characteristics:
(1) The four Gospels are entirely Jewish and contain no direct teaching for the churches. Yet, the writer of Hebrews said that the same gospel of salvation that was preached by the apostles was preached by Christ (Heb. 2:3-4). Though we know that Christ presented Himself to the Jewish nation and we do understand that there are differences between the gospels and the epistles, yet in Hebrews 2 we do not see a sharp delineation between the gospel preached by Christ and that preached by the apostles who followed. In fact, the Gospel of John presents exactly the same gospel as that preached by Paul. Further, 1 Timothy 6:3 shows that Christ spoke directly to the church age.
(2) The book of Acts is also largely Jewish. Hyper-dispensationalists commonly believe that after Christ was rejected by Israel in the Gospels, that they were given a second chance to receive the kingdom in the first part of the book of Acts. Thus, they teach that there are two different churches viewed in the book of Acts, and the true Pauline church only started after Acts 9, 13, or 28. The church mentioned in the first part of Acts allegedly refers to a different church than that of Paul’s prison epistles. The earlier “church” in Acts is simply an aspect of the kingdom preached in the Gospels. Most of the book of Acts is therefore discounted as a guideline for the churches today. Yet, at the very end of the book of Acts we still find Paul preaching about the kingdom (Acts 28:23). In fact, he was still preaching about it in his epistles! (2 Thess. 1:5; 2 Tim. 4:1). While we can see an obvious transition in the book of Acts, and not everything in Acts continues to be in effect in the churches today (e.g., tongues speaking and apostolic sign gifts) this does not mean that there are different gospels and different churches in various parts of Acts. The book of Acts is a book about and for the churches. The pattern of the first church as described in Acts 2 is the pattern for the churches throughout the age, except for the temporary and unique aspects pertaining to the coming of the Holy Spirit and the apostolic miracles.
(3) The mysteries given to Paul are a different revelation from that given to Peter and the other Apostles, and only Paul’s writings are directly for the church today. The other epistles, such as Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and the epistles of John are not for us today in a direct sense. Yet, Paul himself said that the church is built upon the “apostleS” plural and not merely upon himself (Eph. 2:20) and the mysteries were “revealed unto his holy apostleS and prophetS” (Eph. 3:5) and not to him alone. Peter also referred to the writings of Paul and made no distinction between Paul’s teaching and the teaching of the other apostles (2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16). Peter said Paul wrote to the same people and preached the same message. Though we know that Paul was the special apostle of the Gentiles and he was given unique revelations about the church as the body of Christ, his revelations in no way contradict the revelations given in the General Epistles (Hebrews - Jude).
(4) The gospel preached by Peter in the early part of the book of Acts is different from the gospel preached by Paul. Yet, there is actually no difference between the gospel preached by Peter and that which Paul preached. Peter preached salvation through the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:2), salvation by God’s free mercy (1 Peter 1:3), the new birth (1 Peter 1:3), eternal security because of the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 1:3-4). Acts 15 plainly states that all of the apostles, including Peter and Paul, agreed on the gospel. Paul plainly said in 1 Cor. 15:11-14 that they all preached the same gospel. Even in Acts 2, Peter was preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ rather than a “kingdom gospel.” He preached Christ -- His crucifixion (Acts 2:23), resurrection (Acts 2:24-32), ascension and Lordship (Acts 2:33-36). He preached that the people should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). This is not a “kingdom gospel.” Further, Paul states in Galatians 1, that anyone who preached a different gospel was cursed. If Peter were truly preaching a different gospel in those days, he would have fallen under this curse.
(5) Baptism and the Lord’s Supper were given to Paul before he received the church age mysteries; thus they are not for the churches today. Hyper-dispensationalists differ on this point. Some accept both baptism and the Lord’s Supper; some reject water baptism and the Lord’s Supper altogether; while others reject only baptism and keep the Lord’s Supper.
(6) According to hyper-dispensationalism there are different ways of salvation in the Old Testament and during the Tribulation. Peter Ruckman, for example, teaches that men were saved by faith plus works in the Old Testament and that they will be saved by faith plus works in the Tribulation and by works alone in the Millennium. In Millions Disappear: Fact or Fiction? Ruckman says: “If the Lord comes and you remain behind, then start working like a madman to get to heaven, because you’re going to have to. ... You must keep the Ten Commandments (all of them, Ecclesiastes 12:13), keep the Golden Rule (1 John 3:10), give your money to the poor, get baptized, take up your cross, hold out to the end of the Tribulation, wait for Jesus Christ to show up at the Battle of Armageddon, and be prepared to die for what you believe. In the Tribulation you cannot be saved by grace alone, like you could before the Rapture.” In fact, Romans 4:1-8 plainly states that Abraham before the law and David under the law were saved by faith without works. This is the only plan of salvation God ever has had and ever will have--salvation by grace alone through faith alone based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone. The Old Testament saints did not know what the New Testament saint knows, but Romans 4 makes it plain that they were saved by faith without works. Like Abraham, they believed God and it was counted unto them for righteousness. Those who are saved in the Tribulation will also be saved through faith in God’s Word and by the blood of Jesus Christ and through this alone (Rev. 7:14).
THIS dont send an alarm off Sister to study this out more in detail?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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This scripture comes to mind:
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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carol states:
quote:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)
Water baptism is an act of obedience. It is not a requirement for salvation. The ONLY requirement for salvation is that a person is regenerated (baptised) by the Holy Spirit.
This part:
quote:
Water baptism is an act of obedience. It is not a requirement for salvation.
Why is the Berean bible Society being "disobedient"?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)
Water baptism is an act of obedience. It is not a requirement for salvation. The ONLY requirement for salvation is that a person is regenerated (baptised) by the Holy Spirit.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
I ask bill because the Berean Bible Society does not participate in water baptism, i also did not ask if bill was dipped, i ask does he belive it to be a doctrine of the "church" today..
Give it up Berry. It is clear to all the game you play.
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That is all.....
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barrykind
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I ask bill because the Berean Bible Society does not participate in water baptism, i also did not ask if bill was dipped, i ask does he belive it to be a doctrine of the "church" today..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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