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Author
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Topic: another cult / Berean Bible Society
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
About the church...
The events recorded in Matthew 16 form a dramatic turning point in our Lord’s ministry. For the first time, He mentioned the church (Matt. 16:18) and openly spoke about His death on the cross (Matt. 16:21).
This is the first occurrence of this important word in the New Testament. It is the Greek word ekklesia (ek-klay-SEE-uh) from which we get our English word “ecclesiastical,” referring to things that pertain to the church. The literal meaning is “a called-out assembly.” The word is used 114 times in the New Testament and in 90 of these references, a local church (assembly) is in view. However, in this first use of ekklesia, it seems likely that Jesus had the whole church in mind. He was not just building a local assembly, but a universal church composed of all who make the same confession of faith that Peter made.
The word ekklesia was not new to the disciples. This word was applied to the popular assembly of Greek citizens that helped to govern a city or district (Acts 19:32, 39, 41). Also, the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) used ekklesia to describe the congregation of Israel when it was gathered for religious activity (Deut. 31:30; Judg. 20:2). However, this does not mean that the Old Testament congregation of Israel was a “church” in the same sense as the churches of the New Testament. Rather, Jesus was introducing something new to His disciples.
Jesus spoke about “My church” in contrast to these other assemblies. This was to be something new and different, for in His church, Jesus Christ would unite believing Jews and Gentiles and form a new temple, a new body (Eph. 2:11-3:12). In His church, natural distinctions would be unimportant (Gal. 3:28). Jesus Christ would be the Builder of this church, the Head of this church (Eph. 1:22; Col. 1:18).
Each believer in this church is a “living stone” (1 Peter 2:5). Believers would meet in local congregations, or assemblies, to worship Christ and to serve Him; but they would also belong to a universal church, a temple being built by Christ. There is a oneness to the people of God (Eph. 4:1-6) that ought to be revealed to the world by love and unity (John 17:20-26).
Fifty days after Firstfruits is the Feast of Pentecost, which pictures the formation of the church. At Pentecost, the Jews celebrated the giving of the Law, but Christians celebrate it because of the giving of the Holy Spirit to the church.
The Feast of Firstfruits took place on the day after the Sabbath following Passover, which means it was always on the first day of the week. (The Sabbath is the seventh day.) Jesus arose from the dead on the first day of the week and “became the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20).
The church was unified (Acts 2:44), magnified (Acts 2:47a), and multiplied (Acts 2:47b). It had a powerful testimony among the unsaved Jews, not only because of the miracles done by the Apostles (Acts 2:43), but also because of the way the members of the fellowship loved each other and served the Lord. The risen Lord continued to work with them (Mark 16:20) and people continued to be saved.
The conversion of Saul of Tarsus, the leading persecutor of the Christians, was perhaps the greatest event in church history after the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost. The next great event would be the conversion of the Gentiles (Acts 10), and Saul (Paul) would become the apostle to the Gentiles. God was continuing to work out His plan to bring the Gospel to the whole world.
The leaders and the whole church (Acts 15:22), directed by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28), made a twofold decision; a doctrinal decision about salvation, and a practical decision about how to live the Christian life. James advised the church to write to the Gentile believers and share the decisions of the conference. This letter asked for obedience to two commands and a willingness to agree to two personal concessions. The two commands were that the believers avoid idolatry and immorality, sins that were especially prevalent among the Gentiles (see 1 Cor. 8-10). The two concessions were that they willingly abstain from eating blood and meat from animals that had died by strangulation.
We usually identify the preaching of the Gospel with the quiet rural villages of Palestine where the Lord Jesus ministered. For this reason, many Christians are surprised to learn that the church in the Book of Acts was almost entirely urban. Historian Wayne A. Meeks writes that “within a decade of the crucifixion of Jesus, the village culture of Palestine had been left behind, and the Greco-Roman city became the dominant environment of the Christian movement” (The First Urban Christians, p. 11).
The church began in Jerusalem, and then spread to other cities, including Samaria, Damascus, Caesarea, and Antioch in Syria. At least forty different cities are named in Acts. From Antioch, Paul and his helpers carried the Gospel throughout the then-known world. In fact, the record given in Acts 13-28 is almost a review of ancient geography. About the year 56, the Apostle Paul was able to write, “So that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the Gospel of Christ” (Rom. 15:19). What a record!
In these two chapters, Dr. Luke described Paul’s ministry in six different cities, beginning and ending at Antioch.
The Lord had a special work for Saul to do (Acts 26:16-18). The Hebrew of the Hebrews would become the apostle to the Gentiles; the persecutor would become a preacher; and the legalistic Pharisee would become the great proclaimer of the grace of God.
It is worth noting that the men who were with Saul saw the light, but did not see the Lord; and they heard the sound, but did not hear the voice speaking the words (note John 12:27-29). We wonder if any of them later trusted in Christ because of Saul’s testimony. He definitely saw the glorified Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15:7-10).
The men led Saul into the city (Acts 9:8-9), for the angry bull (Acts 9:1) had now become a docile lamb! The leader had to be led because the vision had left him blind. His spiritual eyes had been opened, but his physical eyes were closed. God was thoroughly humbling Saul and preparing him for the ministry of Ananias. He fasted and prayed (Acts 9:11) for three days, during which time he no doubt started to “sort out” what he believed. He had been saved by grace, not by Law, through faith in the living Christ. God began to instruct Saul and show him the relationship between the Gospel of the grace of God and the traditional Mosaic religion that he had practiced all his life.
When he was a Jewish rabbi, Paul was separated as a Pharisee to the laws and traditions of the Jews. But when he yielded to Christ, he was separated to the Gospel and its ministry. Gospel means “the Good News.” It is the message that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again, and now is able to save all who trust Him (1 Cor. 15:1-4). It is “the Gospel of God” (Rom. 1:1) because it originates with God; it was not invented by man. It is “the Gospel of Christ” (Rom. 1:16) because it centers in Christ, the Saviour. Paul also calls it “the Gospel of His Son” (Rom. 1:9), which indicates that Jesus Christ is God! In Romans 16:25-26, Paul called it “my Gospel.” By this he meant the special emphasis he gave in his ministry to the doctrine of the church and the place of the Gentiles in the plan of God.
The Gospel is not a new message; it was promised in the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 3:15. The Prophet Isaiah certainly preached the Gospel in passages such as Isaiah 1:18, and chapters 53 and 55. The salvation we enjoy today was promised by the prophets, though they did not fully understand all that they were preaching and writing (1 Peter 1:10-12).
Jesus Christ is the center of the Gospel message. Paul identified Him as a man, a Jew, and the Son of God. He was born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25) into the family of David, which gave Him the right to David’s throne. He died for the sins of the world, and then was raised from the dead. It is this miraculous event of substitutionary death and victorious resurrection that constitutes the Gospel; and it was this Gospel that Paul preached.
(Wiersbe)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Hi Betty. Hmmmmm....I'll have to try that some time ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
Do you believe in water baptism bill?
WildB is busy, so I hope he won't mind if I throw in my two cents worth.
About baptism...
Ephesians 4:4 - 6 (NASB)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Since Paul is here discussing the one body, this “one baptism” is probably the baptism of the Spirit, that act of the Spirit when He places the believing sinner into the body of Christ at conversion (1 Cor. 12:13). This is not an experience after conversion, nor is it an experience the believer should pray for or seek after. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), but we are never commanded to be baptized with the Spirit, for we have already been baptized by the Spirit at conversion. As far as the one body is concerned, there is one baptism—the baptism of the Spirit. But as far as local bodies of believers are concerned, there are two baptisms: the baptism of the Spirit, and water baptism.
The Greek word baptizo has two meanings, one literal and the other figurative. The word literally means “to submerge,” but the figurative meaning is “to be identified with.” The baptism of the Spirit is that act of God by which He identified believers with the exalted Head of the church, Jesus Christ, and formed the spiritual body of Christ on earth (1 Cor. 12:12-14). Historically, this took place at Pentecost; today, it takes place whenever a sinner trusts Jesus Christ and is born again.
When you read about “baptism” in the New Testament, you must exercise discernment to determine whether the word is to be interpreted literally or symbolically. For example, in Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27-28, the reference is symbolic since water baptism cannot put a sinner into Jesus Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can do that (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13; see Acts 10:44-48). Water baptism is a public witness of the person’s identification with Jesus Christ, while Spirit baptism is the personal and private experience that identifies the person with Christ.
We can be encouraged because we are identified with Christ’s victory. This is pictured in baptism, and the doctrine is explained in Romans 6. It is the baptism of the Spirit that identifies a believer with Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13), and this is pictured in water baptism. It is through the Spirit’s power that we live for Christ and witness for Him (Acts 1:8). The opposition of men is energized by Satan, and Christ has already defeated these principalities and powers. He has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18, niv), and therefore we can go forth with confidence and victory.
Another practical lesson is that our baptism is important. It identifies us with Christ and gives witness that we have broken with the old life (see 1 Peter 4:1-4) and will, by His help, live a new life. The act of baptism is a pledge to God that we shall obey Him. To use Peter’s illustration, we are agreeing to the terms of the contract. To take baptism lightly is to sin against God. Some people make too much of baptism by teaching that it is a means of salvation, while others minimize it. Both are wrong. If a believer is to have a good conscience, he must obey God.
Having said this, I want to make it clear that Christians must not make baptism a test of fellowship or of spirituality. There are dedicated believers who disagree on these matters, and we respect them. When General William Booth founded the Salvation Army, he determined not to make it “another church,” so he eliminated the ordinances. There are Christian groups, such as the Quakers, who, because of conscience or doctrinal interpretation, do not practice baptism. I have stated my position, but I do not want to give the impression that I make this position a test of anything. “Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another” (Rom. 14:19). “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5).
The important thing is that each Christian avow devotion to Christ and make it a definite act of commitment. Most Christians do this in baptism, but even the act of baptism can be minimized or forgotten. It is in taking up our cross daily that we prove we are true followers of Jesus Christ.
(Wiersbe)
ThanX BigC.
Berry I have been sprinkled, dipped, and fully submerged twice...
And came to my senses after a few years of service life, when I was surrounded by water and did not want any further involvement. lol
Ephesians 4:4 - 6 (NASB)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one(SPIRITUAL)baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all
BUT APPLICATION IS INDIVIDUAL >
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Hi Betty. Hmmmmm....I'll have to try that some time
quote:
Do you believe in water baptism bill?
WildB is busy, so I hope he won't mind if I throw in my two cents worth.
About baptism...
Ephesians 4:4 - 6 (NASB)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Since Paul is here discussing the one body, this “one baptism” is probably the baptism of the Spirit, that act of the Spirit when He places the believing sinner into the body of Christ at conversion (1 Cor. 12:13). This is not an experience after conversion, nor is it an experience the believer should pray for or seek after. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), but we are never commanded to be baptized with the Spirit, for we have already been baptized by the Spirit at conversion. As far as the one body is concerned, there is one baptism—the baptism of the Spirit. But as far as local bodies of believers are concerned, there are two baptisms: the baptism of the Spirit, and water baptism.
The Greek word baptizo has two meanings, one literal and the other figurative. The word literally means “to submerge,” but the figurative meaning is “to be identified with.” The baptism of the Spirit is that act of God by which He identified believers with the exalted Head of the church, Jesus Christ, and formed the spiritual body of Christ on earth (1 Cor. 12:12-14). Historically, this took place at Pentecost; today, it takes place whenever a sinner trusts Jesus Christ and is born again.
When you read about “baptism” in the New Testament, you must exercise discernment to determine whether the word is to be interpreted literally or symbolically. For example, in Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27-28, the reference is symbolic since water baptism cannot put a sinner into Jesus Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can do that (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13; see Acts 10:44-48). Water baptism is a public witness of the person’s identification with Jesus Christ, while Spirit baptism is the personal and private experience that identifies the person with Christ.
We can be encouraged because we are identified with Christ’s victory. This is pictured in baptism, and the doctrine is explained in Romans 6. It is the baptism of the Spirit that identifies a believer with Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13), and this is pictured in water baptism. It is through the Spirit’s power that we live for Christ and witness for Him (Acts 1:8). The opposition of men is energized by Satan, and Christ has already defeated these principalities and powers. He has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18, niv), and therefore we can go forth with confidence and victory.
Another practical lesson is that our baptism is important. It identifies us with Christ and gives witness that we have broken with the old life (see 1 Peter 4:1-4) and will, by His help, live a new life. The act of baptism is a pledge to God that we shall obey Him. To use Peter’s illustration, we are agreeing to the terms of the contract. To take baptism lightly is to sin against God. Some people make too much of baptism by teaching that it is a means of salvation, while others minimize it. Both are wrong. If a believer is to have a good conscience, he must obey God.
Having said this, I want to make it clear that Christians must not make baptism a test of fellowship or of spirituality. There are dedicated believers who disagree on these matters, and we respect them. When General William Booth founded the Salvation Army, he determined not to make it “another church,” so he eliminated the ordinances. There are Christian groups, such as the Quakers, who, because of conscience or doctrinal interpretation, do not practice baptism. I have stated my position, but I do not want to give the impression that I make this position a test of anything. “Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another” (Rom. 14:19). “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5).
The important thing is that each Christian avow devotion to Christ and make it a definite act of commitment. Most Christians do this in baptism, but even the act of baptism can be minimized or forgotten. It is in taking up our cross daily that we prove we are true followers of Jesus Christ.
(Wiersbe)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
Carol,
When Barry cannot prove his comments with facts, he tries to confuse the issue with junk from other sources.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Sorry BigC it took so long 2 get back 2 you all Had 2 help friend drag a doe out of the woods and if I want it I have to tag and gut. Still deciding if I wan't 2 get all bloody.
Well I still have room in the freez. I got 2 go and get bloody again...yeuck!
I be back later 2 play with barry. Thanx for keeping the truth forward.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
This is the article in its entireity:
Seven Basic Bible Facts
Every Christian Should Know and Believe
By Robert C. Brock
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
That is NOT the article!!! That is an article written by Robert Brock! You call Stam a false teacher then quote an article written by Brock. How does that work?
This is the article written by Stam:
The Teachings of Jesus
By Cornelius R. Stam
In the controversy over "Pauline truth," not a few Fundamentalists have joined Modernists in attempting to exalt "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) above the Word of God through Paul. "Which," they ask, "should bear the greater weight with us, the words of Jesus, or the words of Paul?"
But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.
With regard to the Sermon on the Mount, they do not subject themselves to the law of Moses (Matt. 5:17-19); they do not bring gifts to altars of sacrifice (5:23,24); they do not give freely to all who ask of them (5:42; 10:8,9); they do not refrain from laying up treasures on earth (6:19,25,26); they do not sell what they have and give alms (Luke 6:30; 12:33).
And while professing obedience to the so-called "Great Commission" as "the Church's marching orders," they do not proclaim faith and baptism for salvation (Mark 16:16); they do not—they cannot—perform miraculous signs (Mark 16:17,18); they do not give the Jew first place in their ministry (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8), and they certainly do not teach others to observe all things that Messiah on earth commanded (Matt. 28:20 cf. 23:1-3).
They set "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) over against "the teachings of Paul," not because they are determined to obey Jesus, but because they are determined to minimize that which God has "magnified"—the authority of Paul as "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13).
They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live (Acts 20:24; 22:6-10,17-21; 26:12-18; Rom. 11:13; 15:15,16; 16:25,26; I Cor. 3:10; 11:23; 15:3; II Cor. 5:16; Gal. 1:1,11,12; 2:7-9; Eph. 3:1-4,8,9; 6:18-20; Phil. 4:9; Col. 1:23-27; I Thes. 4:15; II Thes. 3:14; I Tim. 2:5-7; II Tim. 2:7-9; Titus 1:2,3, etc.).
They have forgotten the stern rebuke the Galatians received for failing to recognize Paul's teachings as a message from the risen, exalted Christ (Gal. 1:6-12). They have taken lightly Paul's words to the Corinthians:
"...if I come again I will not spare: since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me..." (II Cor. 13:2,3).
They have distorted Paul's inspired admonition as to his own writings:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing...from such withdraw thyself" (I Tim. 6:3-5).
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1084472576.html
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
I have read the doctrinal statement.
Do you believe in water baptism bill?
Yes the doctrinal staement says:
quote:
1) The verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings.
Yes they do believe , but do not think that the 4 gospels, and most all letters {[except] Pail's letters} are for the "church" today...
Read what C. Stam, J.C. O'Hair have published..
Yes the believe the "whole" bilbe is inspired word, but that most all is not for us today!
also their doctranal statement says:
quote:
9) The GIFTS enumerated in Ephesians 4:7-16, have been given for the building up of the Body of Christ, and of these, only evangelists, pastors, and teachers are in order during the present dispensation. The sign gifts of the Acts period were temporary in character, and have ceased.
Not what the bible says:
Eph: 4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
This some call "5 fold" ministry will be entact til when "we all come to the unity of the faith"..has not happened as yet, and when it does they (5-fold) will then cease...so all are still in effet today!
Do you believe in water baptism bill?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Carol States;
quote:
You didn't quote the entire message, and failed to provide a link to it. I will quote the next paragraph Stam wrote:
quote:
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But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.
Yes i posted the link:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
I used the quote icon to copy your post exactly in my previous comment, and this one. The link to that message was not there.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Yes, and the Berean Bible Society is NOT ultradispensational. They do NOT agree with or accept Bullinger.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
What does the Berean Bible Society believe?
An excellent question! Here is a copy of our doctrinal statement:
WE BELIEVE:
1) The verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings.
2) The eternal trinity of the GODHEAD.
3) The eternal deity, virgin birth, vicarious death, and spotless humanity of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
4) MANKIND by nature is sinful and under the condemnation of God.
5) Personal SALVATION is by God’s grace, through faith in the crucified, risen, and glorified Christ.
6) The ETERNAL SECURITY of all the saved.
7) The personality and deity of the HOLY SPIRIT.
8) The essential unity of all believers of the present dispensation as members of the one true Church, the BODY OF CHRIST.
9) The GIFTS enumerated in Ephesians 4:7-16, have been given for the building up of the Body of Christ, and of these, only evangelists, pastors, and teachers are in order during the present dispensation. The sign gifts of the Acts period were temporary in character, and have ceased.
10) The privilege and duty of all the saved to WALK by faith as children of light.
11) The Communion of the LORD’S SUPPER as revealed through Paul for the members of the Body of Christ “TILL HE COME.”
12) All believers are made members of the Body of Christ by One Divine BAPTISM, by which also they are identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In the light of I Corinthians 1:17, Ephesians 4:5. and Colossians 2:12, we affirm that water baptism has no place in God’s spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this dispensation of grace.
13) The RESURRECTION of the Body.
14) The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the Church.
15) The personal, premillennial RETURN OF CHRIST to reign on earth.
16) The ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of the unsaved dead.
17) The MYSTERY “Hid in God” was the divine purpose to make of Jew and Gentile a whole new thing, that is, the Church, which is Christ’s Body. The revelation of this Mystery was committed to Paul, and it is in his writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church.
3. What is a "berean" anyway?
Thanks for asking. We get asked that a lot. Being called a Berean comes from Acts 17:10-11. In verse 11 it says that those from Berea (hence, the Bereans) were nobler than the people in Thessalonica because they "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
So, when we say that someone is a "Berean" we mean that they do two things: (1) They have an open mind and willingly receive the Word of God when it is taught to them and (2) But then, they check out what they were taught by comparing it with the Scriptures.
Both aspects are important. Some people are so closed minded that they will not even listen to anything new or that might threaten what they already know. Others are so gullible that they accept whatever is told them without ever checking it against what the Bible says. Both extremes are to be avoided.
A Berean is one who has a balanced viewpoint. We listen to what someone has to say because we are eager to learn the word of God more perfectly. We realize that we have not learned it all. But then, we take what we have heard and compare it with the Bible. Then, if both match, we have learned something and increased our knowledge of God's Word, rightly divided.
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That is all.....
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
As far as "cult" the very title of this thread is "another cult Berean Bible Society"
we disscussed cult and the meanings thereof...
The reason i see the Berean Bible Society as a cult...
Ultra dispensationalism..
Saying only Pauls words are for the "church" today.
Discounting Yahushua's [Jesus] teachings as not for the church.
James, Jude, Gospels (4), most of Acts, were for the Jews [Israel] not for the "church" of today.
Water baptism is no longer for the "church" today.
Et.;El; and other things.
Im a "cult' most of yall think, because i brought up subjects, like we should "Remember" the Sabbath and Keep it Holy.
I also think that we should "keep" the commandments. Which i have explained are written on our hearts and if we walk in the Spirit we can do that.
I also dont believe that one can be saved "born again", born from above, receive the LORD'S Spirit; and live like the devil and go to heaven.
OSAS..like Charles Stanley and others teach.
I believe that signs , such as healing, tongues, and the like are still here today.
i believe that the 5 fold ministry still is effect today.....
Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, Pastors, and Teachers.
i do not believe the way that the "TRINITY" is taught today...Co-Equal, co Existent etc.
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him
Also again the word states:
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
So such as most teach the "trinity" is not in line with the Bible..
My little tiny mind is overwhelmed with such and how "the word became flesh" and dwelt amoung us is to deep for me...
i have never stated a "church" affiliation, nor stated where i attend "worship" and im called a "cult", and also trying to proystelyte [sp] folks to mine and "Dales", Shauls's, and Daniels church.. i know Dale for 30+ years, a finer man i personally know of only 1 other with the integrity and honest heart than BROTHER DALE.
Brother Dale is a "man" after Gods heart...
We live about a 100 miles apart and do not attend "church" together.
The others on this baord at current time i do not know.
I can see Brother Daniels Heart...he loves God!
Any way ..side tracked a little.
The Berean Bible Society teaches a false doctrine as i see it; and which enturn, a FALSE GOSPEL...
When you state that only the Pauline Letters and the"mystery" that Paul was taught superceeds what Christ Yahushua [Jesus] taught and those writings [Christs, and others except Paul] are not for the "body of Christ" today...My goodness Sister [not a nun] Carol and Sister Betty and others.do yall too believe that?
That Society is a group that was much stronger in the 40's and 50's but has truly dwindeled as of today..[i read], but have drifted from truth.
i dearly love Paul and his writings [scripture] but it is a blend with all of the Word of YHWH!
we get in trouble when we pick and choose scripture..
i try to look at all of scripture...i dont understand many, many things......
Bill has shown his true colors; he is a name called and made himself a judge..
You can state that one has "lied" and prove your point; but to call "Christ" a liar; and any "person" [such he did me] you have became a judge and condemned that one to hell...FOR ALL LIARS have thier part in the "lake of fire", and WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God!
Serious accusation!
Repent of that Brother...
Do not let me or anyone or anything let a root of bitterness spring up in your heart..
We can discuss these matters civily..
The word tells us to render unto Ceaser what is ceaser's....
2) You state if i remember right that Romans 13 is civil government...[i personally think that it is "church" govt.].
If it is civil government then render unto your govt, as is its due? right
But to answer the direct question youask me, Do i pay taxes?
i wondered about this for quite some time, agonizing over the very same thing you ask me...
i received peace from Yahushua on the matter:
My current income i pay in about 20-100 dollars a year to the IRS. Onmy tax returns because of my children and earned income credits i receive in return about $8,000.00 a year.
Sonone of my earned money goes to abortion, Endowment for the arts etc, etc.
But i leagally "render unto Ceaser" what is his, and he gets none!
i dont really like conterversy believe it or not, but i will defend the words of Yahushua as feebly as i can to the end.
im not nowor never have been associated with :
The seventh day adventist
Armstrong, none of them
Mormons
Jehova witness
Roman Catholics and most all other denominations [divisions]
i have attended many, many, many different denoms [divisions] in the "body of Christ" and dont fit any of them, from Primitive Bap, Southern Baptist, Assb, Of God, Holiness, Apostolic, UPC, Dont fit
Many have lots of truth, none can agree...
Your either a sheep or a goat to me, in the body or not!
Just like a family, not everyone is at the same level of truth, certainly not that i have attained, but i press on.
There are certain things i can walk with and understand such as tribulation, i see where Bettey, Carol and some of you come from, dont agree but it is not a doctrine to say that you all "are not saved", and there are many things like this that is not critical to "salvation" to me anyways.
But to say that Yahushua's word in the gospels, and everything but what Paul states is "NOT" for the church today..i cant live with that..
Thats "ANOTHER" Gospel to me...mid acts, pre acts and post acts [Ultra], [Hyper] and those other words for ultra dispensationalism, discounting the words of everybody but Paul, does not blend with YHWH's word the bible, where all scripture is given for doctrine, etc., etc.
Perhaps i said enough..
in love
![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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posted
This is the article in its entireity:
Seven Basic Bible Facts
Every Christian Should Know and Believe
By Robert C. Brock
Editor of the Journal of Pauline Dispensationalism
FACT NO. 1—That the Bible MUST be rightly divided in order for it to make sense. Notice what it says: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the Word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15). This is one of the cardinal rules for interpreting the whole Bible. Neglect of this rule or a faulty use of it will lead to only one result, CONFUSION, since our God is not the author of confusion.
The reason for a right division of the Bible is because of God's two distinct purposes: (1) His purpose concerning Israel and the world according to PROPHECY, and (2) His purpose concerning the Gentiles in this present age according to the MYSTERY revealed to Paul. God doesn't want us to confuse the teaching of these two purposes. He has very graciously given us the key for a proper understanding of this.
FACT NO. 2—That the DISTINCTIVENESS of Pauline truth is a most important doctrine of the Bible. The risen Lord Jesus Christ revealed His heart and His mind to the Apostle Paul: "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:11,12). "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward; how that BY REVELATION He made known unto me the MYSTERY..." (Eph. 3:2,3).
This proves conclusively that Paul did not preach what the 12 Apostles preached. Rather he went up to Jerusalem to TELL THEM of the special gospel of grace that Christ gave to him (Gal. 2:2). He preached Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was kept secret, hid in God (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:9). He was the Apostle to the Gentiles and magnified his office (Rom. 11:13).
FACT NO. 3—That the gospel we are to preach is called the Gospel of the grace of God. "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD" (Acts 20:24). This is God's only message for the lost in this present age. We are to follow Paul as he followed Christ (I Cor. 11:1). In his writings ALONE do we find the doctrine, position, walk, and destiny of the Christian.
Some other important aspects of grace are:
1. We are saved by GRACE—Eph. 2:8,9.
2. We are justified freely by His GRACE—Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7.
3. His GRACE is sufficient for us—II Cor. 12:9.
4. We are not under Law but under GRACE—Rom. 6:14,15.
5. This age is the age of GRACE —Eph. 3:2.
6. We are to approach the throne of GRACE in prayer—Heb. 4:16.
FACT NO. 4—That the Bible definitely teaches that water baptism was and is a part of Israel's religion (Heb. 6:1,2; 9:10). It was for the remission of sins and was by sprinkling (Mark 1:4; Acts 2:38; Ezek. 36:25).
In this age there is only ONE baptism, not two: "One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM" (Eph. 4:5). This baptism is the placing of the Christian into the Church, the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit: "For by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (I Cor. 12:13). This baptism takes place once for all at the time of salvation.
The Apostle Paul was not sent to baptize with water: "For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE but to preach the gospel..." (I Cor. 1:17). Only a change in God's purpose would necessitate a statement like this. There is no importance attached to water baptism, today. It is not a part of Christianity and only causes confusion.
FACT NO. 5—That we must understand the two-fold ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ. During His earthly ministry He ministered exclusively to Israel: "But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL" (Matt. 15:24). His whole ministry to the Nation was under the Law of Moses (Matt. 5:17; Gal. 4:4,5). Christians are not under the Law so we are not to live according to Israel's teachings.
During His present ministry in Heaven, He is ministering according to what He revealed to the Apostle Paul. He is saving men according to His gospel of Grace. He is at the throne of grace making intercession for us (Rom. 8:34). We are to live in Paul's epistles where pure Christianity is found. This is not to say we should neglect the rest of the Bible. It is ALL for us but not all TO us (I Cor. 10:6,11).
FACT NO. 6—That SIGNS belong to the Nation of Israel and its religion: "For the JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN, and the Gentiles seek after wisdom" (I Cor. 1:22). Speaking in tongues is a SIGN: "Wherefore TONGUES are for a SIGN, not to them that believe but to them that believe not..." (I Cor. 14:22).
In Jesus' day, those who sought after signs were called an evil and adulterous generation (Matt. 12:39). The eight miracles of the Gospel of John are properly called SIGNS, which included the rising of Lazarus from the dead; and in the commission of Mark 16:15-18, water baptism is associated with SIGNS. This is proved in the book of Acts because everywhere water baptism is mentioned a SIGN is mentioned in the immediate context.
This present age is a signless age. We have been blessed with all SPIRITUAL blessings in the heavenlies in Christ (Eph. 1:3). This is where the emphasis lies for the Christian.
FACT NO. 7—That the COMMISSION the Church, the Body of Christ, is to work under, is found in II Corinthians 5:14-21 and Ephesians 3:9. The Kingdom commission of Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-18 does not belong to God's present grace purpose. The message of reconciliation has been committed to US, the Body of Christ.
RESULTS:
1. The Christian would begin to perceive and grasp the deep things of God (I Cor. 2:10-12).
2. There would be a wonderful growth into spiritual maturity and adulthood (Eph. 4:12-15).
3. He would become a faithful steward of the mysteries of God (I Cor. 2:7; 4:1,2).
4. He would possess the Biblical answer to Satan's false cults like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Unitarians, Modernists, etc. They all borrow some aspects of Israel's religion.
5. A mighty revival would take place if Christians would get back to Pauline truth.
My friend, if you are not saved, the grace of God invites you to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. You are a sinner and need to be saved (Rom. 3:23). "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31). "...now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation" (II Cor. 6:2). It is infinitely better to receive Him and spend eternity in Heaven than to reject Him and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire!
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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posted
Carol States;
quote:
You didn't quote the entire message, and failed to provide a link to it. I will quote the next paragraph Stam wrote:
quote:
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But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.
Yes i posted the link:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
stam the false teacher said:
quote:
They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live
another wolf in sheeps clothing.....
You didn't quote the entire message, and failed to provide a link to it. I will quote the next paragraph Stam wrote:
quote:
But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.
and the last part of Stam's message:
quote:
They have distorted Paul's inspired admonition as to his own writings:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing...from such withdraw thyself" (I Tim. 6:3-5).
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1084472576.html
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
there site says ALL SCRIPTURE
Betty is right. This is a quote from their website.
quote:
While many Grace pastors preach and write about Paul's epistles (which they certainly should do), some of them unfortunately neglect the rest of the Bible. This leaves many Grace folks having to get their instruction on the General Epistles from teachers who do not understand Paul's unique apostleship and message. While we certainly want to emphasize the teaching and preaching of the dispensation of the grace of God committed to the Apostle Paul, we do not want to neglect the other Scriptures because we know that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." Our goal should be to know and understand the entire Bible in light of Paul's gospel.
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/epistles.html
barrykind, The Berean Bible Society is not listed as a cult. For you to continue saying they are is not only false, but is a deliberate cruelty of heart calculated to provoke certain people. Your opinion of the B.B.S. is only that...it is your OPINION. Nothing more.
Galatians 5
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
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barrykind
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posted
wildbill
quote:
WildB
Advanced Member
Member # 2917
posted October 22, 2010 09:32 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by barrykind:
Betty this is also thier website...go read for your self!!!
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
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So berry , the one from the cult,
Lol.
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That is all.....
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this will be reported ihave children that read things on this board..
[ October 23, 2010, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Carol Swenson ]
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Betty Louise
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posted
From what I can see they are not a cult. I do not believe like the Church of Christ that Baptism is a requirement for salvation but I do believe in water Baptism.
Barry teaching that a Christian should keep the Jewish laws is much more of a cult then the Berean Bible Society is. I think that as long as you push Saturday worship or keeping the Jewish laws you are in no position to call another group a cult.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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posted
there site says ALL SCRIPTURE
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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barrykind
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posted
Betty states:
quote:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine....”
this is on their web site. It does not sound like they are rejecting the book of Acts to me.
betty
Read Sister Betty;
Post Acts Dispensationalists
There is also division of the “grace” movement, who might be called “Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, that neither believe that the church began after the Acts nor identify the body of Christ as the mystery of Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1.
“Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, do not differ with the Mid-Acts position, in that they believe the church began with the Apostle Paul (Saul) in Acts 9. This is based on Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 1:16 where he claims, "that in me first, Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."(KJV), and at least eight references to the body in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Where the split occurs is in differing positions as to when the dispensation of grace begins. The Mid-Acts position begins it in either Acts 13, where Saul becomes Paul, or Acts 15 where James charges Paul to go to the Gentiles. Another difference is in the identification of what the mystery is, and what it affected. The post-Acts position holds that the mystery of Ephesians and Colossians is the grace dispensation, which effectively dispensed with "the law of commandments...the ordinances that was against us"(Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14), in order to bring those saved into the body during Paul's Acts ministry, with those like the Ephesians and Colossians, into one fellowship, "the one new man...the fellowship of the mystery."(Eph.2:16;3:9) In this new unified body, all the practices ordained for the Acts church, which was decidedly Jewish/covenantal, were abolished with the “revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25) of Ephesians and Colossians.[2]
[edit] Mid-Acts Dispensationalists
Mid-Acts Dispensationalists believe the Church of this dispensation began with Paul, between Acts 9 and Acts 13. There are several reasons for this belief. Notably, Paul says that a dispensation was given to him which was called a mystery (Col 1:25-26). Paul says the gospel he preaches was "kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25). This is often contrasted to Peter's preaching which is said to be "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21). Also, Paul was referred to as "the" apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:11-13; Rom 15:16; Eph 3:1-2; compare Gal 2:7-9). In addition, Paul states that "the dispensation of...grace" was given to him (Eph 3:2; c.f., 1Cor 9:17; Col 1:25). Spokesmen for this viewpoint include J. C. O'Hair, Bob Hill (The Big Difference), C. R. Stam (Things That Differ), Major R. B. Withers ("The Greek Scriptures"), Charles F. Baker (A Dispensational Theology), and Bob Enyart (The Plot).
While adherents to the Mid-Acts Position agree that all Scripture is profitable (2Tim 3:16), in general, Mid-Acts Dispensationalists do not believe that the doctrine in the General Epistles (James through Jude) is for the participation of the church today. Instead, they believe these epistles (along with the four Gospels) will mostly apply to future Israel, after she repents and returns to the Lord during the Tribulation. Note that the term hyper or ultra-dispensationalist is not one that most Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would apply to themselves (although admittedly "more dispensational" than mainstream dispensationalists), yet they do tend to apply it to their Acts 28 brethren, who are viewed as taking dispensational concepts still further.
Shared views
In addition to their distinctive views on the applicability of many of the New Testament books, most hyper-dispensationalists hold unique views on what are commonly held as sacraments (which some term “ordinances”). Neither holds to the ordinance of water baptism, as they assert this has been supplanted by “one baptism”, the “baptism by the Holy Spirit” [1 Cor 12:13; Eph 4:4-6]. While most practice the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper; a few may not, in part from Paul’s post-Acts epistles, in which he states that the church today is no longer under any ordinances (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14; Col. 2:20).
Wikepedia reference link above:
Also ask bill if he believes as the berean cult does..NO Water Baptism????
Just on thing, but they think that only Pauls teaching are relevant for the "church" today... I feel the WHOLE bible is....
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Betty Louise
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posted
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/BBS.pdf
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine....”
this is on their web site. It does not sound like they are rejecting the book of Acts to me.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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barrykind
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posted
stam the false teacher said:
quote:
They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live
another wolf in sheeps clothing.....
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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posted
betty ![[Confused]](confused.gif) states:
quote:
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
posted October 22, 2010 09:01 PM
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Barry,
You reject the teaching of Paul because he said not to judge one another over days of worship. You want to be a Jew first and then a Christian and your teachings differ from Paul so this puts you at odds with the Bible.
Every post you are trying to sneak in your teaching of being a Jew and then a Christian. Your teachings are wrong and you are misleading people with your post.
betty
No i dont reject Paul's teachings...I just do not as the cult of the Berean bible society rejects Christ's teachings:
Thats simply not true betty, do you even read these posts???
the berean bible society rejects, water baptism, the teachings of [Jesus] as not for the present day church, most all of acts, and so on...
Read sister, pay attention, look at the materials..ask your pastor....
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Betty Louise
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posted
Barry,
You reject the teaching of Paul because he said not to judge one another over days of worship. You want to be a Jew first and then a Christian and your teachings differ from Paul so this puts you at odds with the Bible.
Every post you are trying to sneak in your teaching of being a Jew and then a Christian. Your teachings are wrong and you are misleading people with your post.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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barrykind
Advanced Member
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posted
More false teachings by Cornelious Stam:
quote:
The Teachings of Jesus
By Cornelius R. Stam
In the controversy over "Pauline truth," not a few Fundamentalists have joined Modernists in attempting to exalt "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) above the Word of God through Paul. "Which," they ask, "should bear the greater weight with us, the words of Jesus, or the words of Paul?"
But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.
With regard to the Sermon on the Mount, they do not subject themselves to the law of Moses (Matt. 5:17-19); they do not bring gifts to altars of sacrifice (5:23,24); they do not give freely to all who ask of them (5:42; 10:8,9); they do not refrain from laying up treasures on earth (6:19,25,26); they do not sell what they have and give alms (Luke 6:30; 12:33).
And while professing obedience to the so-called "Great Commission" as "the Church's marching orders," they do not proclaim faith and baptism for salvation (Mark 16:16); they do not—they cannot—perform miraculous signs (Mark 16:17,18); they do not give the Jew first place in their ministry (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8), and they certainly do not teach others to observe all things that Messiah on earth commanded (Matt. 28:20 cf. 23:1-3).
They set "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) over against "the teachings of Paul," not because they are determined to obey Jesus, but because they are determined to minimize that which God has "magnified"—the authority of Paul as "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13).
They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live (Acts 20:24; 22:6-10,17-21; 26:12-18; Rom. 11:13; 15:15,16; 16:25,26; I Cor. 3:10; 11:23; 15:3; II Cor. 5:16; Gal. 1:1,11,12; 2:7-9; Eph. 3:1-4,8,9; 6:18-20; Phil. 4:9; Col. 1:23-27; I Thes. 4:15; II Thes. 3:14; I Tim. 2:5-7; II Tim. 2:7-9; Titus 1:2,3, etc.).
They have forgotten the stern rebuke the Galatians received for failing to recognize Paul's teachings as a message from the risen, exalted Christ (Gal. 1:6-12). They have taken lightly Paul's words to the Corinthians:
"...if I come again I will not spare: since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me..." (II Cor. 13:2,3).
They have distorted Paul's inspired admonition as to his own writings:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing...from such withdraw thyself" (I Tim. 6:3-5).
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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posted
More Berean Bible Society false teachings:
quote:
FACT NO. 2—That the DISTINCTIVENESS of Pauline truth is a most important doctrine of the Bible. The risen Lord Jesus Christ revealed His heart and His mind to the Apostle Paul: "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:11,12). "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward; how that BY REVELATION He made known unto me the MYSTERY..." (Eph. 3:2,3).
This proves conclusively that Paul did not preach what the 12 Apostles preached. Rather he went up to Jerusalem to TELL THEM of the special gospel of grace that Christ gave to him (Gal. 2:2). He preached Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was kept secret, hid in God (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:9). He was the Apostle to the Gentiles and magnified his office (Rom. 11:13).
Further false teachings by the berean bible society:
quote:
In Jesus' day, those who sought after signs were called an evil and adulterous generation (Matt. 12:39). The eight miracles of the Gospel of John are properly called SIGNS, which included the rising of Lazarus from the dead; and in the commission of Mark 16:15-18, water baptism is associated with SIGNS. This is proved in the book of Acts because everywhere water baptism is mentioned a SIGN is mentioned in the immediate context.
This present age is a signless age. We have been blessed with all SPIRITUAL blessings in the heavenlies in Christ (Eph. 1:3). This is where the emphasis lies for the Christian.
read more on thier false website:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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wildb states:
quote:
GodBless u and yours bigc ,
Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical tradition and theology based on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive "dispensations" or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants. all Bereans hold to a pretribulation rapture.
I shall go the way of Kingo, and let the ST berbarry/and other sillyness learn the next generation here.
Plow on Berry, plow on.
I will have no part of his "we"!
U all can jam me all U wan't but I know that this pitily disention does not show forth the simplicity that is in one's faith in Christ.
Simplicity that is in one's faith in Christ!
I take full responsibility for the confusions of these post.
Ok Berry and Because I stand down.
U have taken this BBS BOARDS left tower guard captive.
I am part of my Lords Body, his temple.
Till my last breath.
What have U boys really won?
again bill states:
quote:
You know Because , if you had any kind of Spiritual Class and a true knowledge of Christ you would delete this post until you and your boy are TRUTHFULLY educated to the Bereans.
Then I will debate you both with one lobe tied behind my 3 cheek and kicky all 4 of your cheeks.
Bill do you believe on should be water baptized after being "born again"?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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Yes Carol and Berean Bible Society is from the mid acts E. W. Bullinger line..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Every jot and tittle of His Word is living Water for my soul, a lamp unto my feet.
2 Tim 3:
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Paul was not writing to Timothy of his writings but of ALL of God's glorious Word.
The Ethiopean eunuch was reading from Isaiah, when Brother Phillip preached the Gospel.
All of the New Testament was written to Blood-bought, Born-again children of the Living God. The Book of Luke and Acts was written to the Greeks. The Book of Matthew was written to the Jews and thus we find the passages which say,"Kingdom of Heaven" rather than "Kingdom of God" because of the Jewish sensitivity to the use of God's name.
The Gospel which was preached on the day of Pentecost, at which time 3000 of our Believing Brethern came to Christ, is the same Gospel preached by Phillip, John, and Paul. Our Lord declared:
John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Acts 3:
13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14: But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15: And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16: And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17: And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18: But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20: And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22: For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23: And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24: Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25: Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26: Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts 8:
5: Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6: And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7: For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8: And there was great joy in that city.
Acts 11:
12: And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13: And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17: Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
19: Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20: And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21: And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
22: Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23: Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24: For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
25: Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
27: And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29: Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
The Holy Ghost who inspired the sacred writings of Paul to Believers is the same Spirit of Truth who inspired the sacred writings of the Gospels, the Book of Acts, the entire New Testament, to Believers, our Brethren who spread forth from the Day of Pentecost. To propose a Pauline Dispensation, and to separate the Brethren on the day of Pentecost from the Brethren under Paul's apostleship, is a wresting of scripture. The Church Age, the Dispensation of Grace began with the empowering of the 120 in the Upper Room, and will conclude with our Glorious Reuniuon with our Lord in the air.
Acts 1:
3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Carol Swenson
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Watchman Expositor definition of cult:
Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity. Watchman Fellowship usually uses the term cult with a Christian or doctrinal definition in mind. In most cases the group claims to be Christian, but because of their aberrant beliefs on central doctrines of the faith (God, Jesus, and salvation), the organization is not considered by Watchman Fellowship to be part of orthodox, biblical Christianity.
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barrykind
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First and foremost lets return to the title of this thread.
another cult/Berean Bible Society
What does one mean by the word "cult"
Probably means many different things to differnt people.
Mostly, i would gather to say,
the word would mean : any or all of the below;
1] Religious practices or teachings outside of mainstream church today.
2]False Doctrine against Yahushua's teachings
3]Satanic influence of doctrine (occult)
4]Groups that separate themselves from mainstream "church"
5]Anything that does not agree with what "Our Church" teaches.
This is just a small list of what theword "cult" means to some folks...
That being said, probably most of us would be in a "cult" by the broadest use of the term.
I see a cult [to me] as a group that twists doctrine, and scripture to show "they" are right and one must follow them>
This is very broad of course and open for discussion of course.
i do not think that a group of believers that state YHWH, YHVH, Yahweh is the Father's name is a cult. [Just because of that statement]
Nor do i think because someone call the Father by His title [God], or Elohim, is a cult.
For the purpose of this thread...another cult..
Im assuming the author Brother Dale means [and one would have to ask him], The Berean Bible Society, Following in the footsteps of E>W> Bullinger.. C.R. Stam, and J.C. o'Hair followed with this line of thought [some call] Ultra or Extreme , dispensationalism....
Early Ultradispensationalism, such as that promoted by Sir Robert Anderson and E.W. Bullinger in his early years, emphasized a dispensational boundary line at Acts 28:28, but did not apply this boundary line to the Epistles of Paul, viewing them as a whole whether or not they were written before or after Acts 28:28. When the young Charles Welch pointed out the inherent contradiction in this to E.W. Bullinger, Bullinger changed his views, and incorporated the dividing line into his teachings on the Epistles of Paul that were written from that point forward and which became universally known as Ultradispensationalism. Since the majority of his work was written before this point, however, many of his writings view Paul’s Epistles as an unbroken whole. Later adherents of Ultradispensationalism writers, such as Stuart Allen, Oscar Baker, and Otis Sellers, all followed the example of Charles Welch and E.W. Bullinger’s later work in applying the division to Paul’s books as well as the book of Acts in the true spirit of Ultradispensationalism.
See wikepedia @
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultradispensationalism
This is two differences in the view;
Post Acts Dispensationalists
There is also division of the “grace” movement, who might be called “Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, that neither believe that the church began after the Acts nor identify the body of Christ as the mystery of Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1.
“Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, do not differ with the Mid-Acts position, in that they believe the church began with the Apostle Paul (Saul) in Acts 9. This is based on Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 1:16 where he claims, "that in me first, Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."(KJV), and at least eight references to the body in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Where the split occurs is in differing positions as to when the dispensation of grace begins. The Mid-Acts position begins it in either Acts 13, where Saul becomes Paul, or Acts 15 where James charges Paul to go to the Gentiles. Another difference is in the identification of what the mystery is, and what it affected. The post-Acts position holds that the mystery of Ephesians and Colossians is the grace dispensation, which effectively dispensed with "the law of commandments...the ordinances that was against us"(Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14), in order to bring those saved into the body during Paul's Acts ministry, with those like the Ephesians and Colossians, into one fellowship, "the one new man...the fellowship of the mystery."(Eph.2:16;3:9) In this new unified body, all the practices ordained for the Acts church, which was decidedly Jewish/covenantal, were abolished with the “revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25) of Ephesians and Colossians.[2]
[edit] Mid-Acts Dispensationalists
Mid-Acts Dispensationalists believe the Church of this dispensation began with Paul, between Acts 9 and Acts 13. There are several reasons for this belief. Notably, Paul says that a dispensation was given to him which was called a mystery (Col 1:25-26). Paul says the gospel he preaches was "kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25). This is often contrasted to Peter's preaching which is said to be "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21). Also, Paul was referred to as "the" apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:11-13; Rom 15:16; Eph 3:1-2; compare Gal 2:7-9). In addition, Paul states that "the dispensation of...grace" was given to him (Eph 3:2; c.f., 1Cor 9:17; Col 1:25). Spokesmen for this viewpoint include J. C. O'Hair, Bob Hill (The Big Difference), C. R. Stam (Things That Differ), Major R. B. Withers ("The Greek Scriptures"), Charles F. Baker (A Dispensational Theology), and Bob Enyart (The Plot).
While adherents to the Mid-Acts Position agree that all Scripture is profitable (2Tim 3:16), in general, Mid-Acts Dispensationalists do not believe that the doctrine in the General Epistles (James through Jude) is for the participation of the church today. Instead, they believe these epistles (along with the four Gospels) will mostly apply to future Israel, after she repents and returns to the Lord during the Tribulation. Note that the term hyper or ultra-dispensationalist is not one that most Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would apply to themselves (although admittedly "more dispensational" than mainstream dispensationalists), yet they do tend to apply it to their Acts 28 brethren, who are viewed as taking dispensational concepts still further.
Shared views
In addition to their distinctive views on the applicability of many of the New Testament books, most hyper-dispensationalists hold unique views on what are commonly held as sacraments (which some term “ordinances”). Neither holds to the ordinance of water baptism, as they assert this has been supplanted by “one baptism”, the “baptism by the Holy Spirit” [1 Cor 12:13; Eph 4:4-6]. While most practice the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper; a few may not, in part from Paul’s post-Acts epistles, in which he states that the church today is no longer under any ordinances (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14; Col. 2:20).
Wikepedia reference link above:
This to me is a problem, and by the term "cult" given above,, Is teaching false doctrine, while many points given are true...
Discounting the gospels for the "church" today is false.
No water baptism...is false
Some even do not partake of the "Lords Supper....is false
All one has to do is read what they teach, and line it up with scripture to see it dont fit....
Study out these scriptures.....
1.Mark 4:11 (Whole Chapter)
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
2.Romans 11:25 (Whole Chapter)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
3.Romans 16:25 (Whole Chapter)
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
4.1 Corinthians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
5.1 Corinthians 15:51 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
6.Ephesians 1:9 (Whole Chapter)
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
7.Ephesians 3:3 (Whole Chapter)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
8.Ephesians 3:4 (Whole Chapter)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
9.Ephesians 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10.Ephesians 5:32 (Whole Chapter)
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
11.Ephesians 6:19 (Whole Chapter)
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
12.Colossians 1:26 (Whole Chapter)
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
13.Colossians 1:27 (Whole Chapter)
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
14.Colossians 2:2 (Whole Chapter)
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
15.Colossians 4:3 (Whole Chapter)
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
16.2 Thessalonians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
17.1 Timothy 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
18.1 Timothy 3:16 (Whole Chapter)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
19.Revelation 1:20 (Whole Chapter)
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
20.Revelation 10:7 (Whole Chapter)
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Romans 16:
25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
Colossians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Seach out the scriptures...peeps ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
work calls
![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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There, you see? A life you did not live; a death you did not die.
AMEN!!!
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barrykind
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This is the link to the entire message:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/what_is_the_gospel.htm
i have not read this , nor have i ever heard of Mr, Ironside until i posted the article about "Ultra despensationalism"
He may be a poor example of a teacher..im not sure..but we can read about him and see..
i think his teaching on UD was a good one..
First i believe Paul did receive much revelation, but i dont think it contradicted the Gospels, or any other written letters of the NT.
I dont think Paul's revelation, contradicted anything in the OLD T niether..
Let us study and see...
He also states in this sermon:
quote:
THE GOSPEL ACCEPTED
Look at the result of believing the Gospel. Go back to verse two, "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." That is, if you believe the Gospel, you are saved; if you believe that Christ died for your sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again, God says you are saved. Do you believe it? No man ever believed that except by the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of God that overcomes the natural unbelief of the human heart and enables a man to put his trust in that message. And this is not mere intellectual credence, but it is that one comes to the place where he is ready to stake his whole eternity on the fact that Christ died, and was buried, and rose again. When Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED" the work of salvation was completed. A dear saint was dying, and looking up he said, "It is finished; on that I can cast my eternity." Upon a life I did not live, Upon a death I did not die; Another's life, another's death, Is take my whole eternity." Can you say that, and say it in faith?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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No, but I know that no real cult index lists them as a cult. The people who criticize the Berean Bible Society can themselves be criticized just as easily.
I belong in the bolded paragraph below, and I don't deny that Paul was given a unique revelation as stated in the scriptures I quoted. What do YOU think of those scriptures barrykind? You can't deny them or ignore them because they are in the Bible.
_________________________________________________
Pauline Christianity is a term used to refer to the Christianity associated with the beliefs and doctrines espoused by Paul of Tarsus through his writings.
Most of orthodox Christianity relies heavily on these teachings and considers them to be amplifications and explanations of the teachings of Jesus.
Others perceive in Paul's writings, teachings that are radically different from the original teachings of Jesus documented in the canonical gospels, early Acts and the rest of the New Testament, such as the Epistle of James.
(Wikipedia)
_________________________________________________
You like Ironside. You ought to love this
The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past …
Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.
SOURCE: Pastor Harry A. Ironside, from the sermon: What Is The Gospel?
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barrykind
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So your a berean society follower Carol?
Or what?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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The prison epistles—Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon—are so named because they were written by the apostle Paul during his incarceration in Rome.
Here are two examples of the mystery revealed to Paul that he wrote about in his prison espistles.
Ephesians 3:1 - 12 (NASB)
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men , as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
Colossians 1:24 - 29 (NASB)
24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. 25Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
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barrykind
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Further Examination of the Epistles
PASSING over for the present the Apostle Paul's presentation of the sevenfold unity of Christianity in Ephesians 4, and his identification of the Body and the Bride in chapter 5, which we shall discuss later, we turn now to others of the prison epistles to see if we can find the slightest intimation of a new revelation given after Paul reached Rome. Unquestionably, Philippians was written during the Roman imprisonment. But we search its four precious chapters in vain for the least suggestion that he has received anything new to unfold. In chapter 1, where he presents Christ as the believer's life, he shows how thoroughly the evangelistic spirit had taken possession of him, so that even in his prison-cell he was rejoicing that Christ was being preached whether in pretence or in truth, and his own desire is that this same Christ may ever be magnified in his body, whether in life or in ,death. He urges the saints to stand fast in one spirit contending for the very faith which he had already made known to them. There is not a hint that he has now something new to reveal; that is, that the old dispensation to which they had hitherto belonged had come to a close, and that a new one had begun. In chapter 2 he dwells on Christ as our Example, and shows how he himself and Timothy and Epaphroditus during the years had sought to follow in Christ's steps, and this is still before his soul. In the third chapter he recounts his past experiences and self-confidence in the old days before be was saved, and then shows how the change was brought about by a sight of the risen Christ. From that moment on, he counted all things as loss for the One who had won his heart, and he was pressing on toward the mark for the prize of the calling of God on high in Christ Jesus. He calls upon them whom he designates as "perfect" to be thus minded. "Perfect" here means "mature," or we might even say well-rounded, or well-balanced. Nothing is needed to give them this perfection in addition to what they already had. Surely, if anywhere, this was the place to show them that hitherto they were but babes, and had only received an initial revelation, but that now he had something for them of an altogether new character which would perfect them in Christ. But there is no word of any such added truth. Nor yet in the last chapter where he exhorts to unity and peace among themselves. May we not say that Paul is singularly remiss in not sharing with his old converts at Philippi the new revelation he had received, if such a thing were really true?
But it was not true:-all the reasoning of the ultra-dispensationalists to the contrary notwithstanding;-for when we turn over to Colossians we find him once more reiterating the same truths he had proclaimed for a generation. He shows that two ministries had been committed to him from the first. He had been made a minister of the Gospel. That Gospel has been preached in all the creation which is under heaven. He had also been made a minister of "the mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations, but now," he says, "is made manifest to His saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in (or, among) you, the hope of glory: whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: whereunto I also labor, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily" (Col. 1: 26-29).
Let it be carefully observed that he is here covering his entire ministry. He had no such opportunity to preach to multitudes while he was in his Roman, or as some think, his Caesarean prison at the time he wrote this epistle. But he tells us what had characterized his ministry throughout the years. Other saints there were whom he had not met personally, as well as those at Colosse. He thinks of the Laodicean believers, and he longs that they all may be brought into the knowledge of this mystery. But it is not something new. It is that which has ever characterized his teaching.
The Epistle of Titus is not of course a prison epistle at all, but it was written later than any of those that are so designated, excepting Second Timothy. In this letter Paul instructs the younger preacher, Titus, as to the divine order for local churches, the work of a true pastor, and the testimony committed to the servants of God. Surely here, if anywhere, we should expect him to put before Titus the fact that the "transitional period" has now come to an end and Titus must ring the changes as the ultra-dispensationalists do to-day, on "body truth," "closed doors," "Jewish Gospels," "Kingdom Age," etc., etc., ad nauseam. But, no; none of these terms so frequently used and played upon until one is wearied, are suggested to Titus. He is simply to go on preaching and teaching the very same things that have been taught during his earlier association with the Apostle Paul.
The brief letter to Philemon we may pass over, as we would hardly expect to find anything doctrinal in it; and yet even here if Paul's heart were throbbing with the joy of some absolutely new opening up of truth, we would almost wonder how be could help saying a word about it, at least to his friend Philemon.
Hebrews was undoubtedly written very shortly before the apostle's martyrdom, granting that it is from the pen of Paul. That this is so, I have tried to make clear in my book on the Epistle to the Hebrews, and I shall not attempt to go into it now. But in any case, it was undoubtedly written very shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem, and here if anywhere, one might expect these Hebrew believers to be told that the "kingdom age" is now over, "the transition period" has now been finished, and it is for them to accept the new revelation of "body truth." But we search in vain for anything of the kind. It is simply a normal presentation of the precious things of Christ, showing how completely Old Testament types have had their fulfilment in Him and His finished work, and that all who believe now come under the blessings of the new covenant.
Probably later than Hebrews is the second letter to Timothy. It was penned during Paul's second imprisonment, very shortly before his death. As this occurred in A. D. 66 or 67, we may see how far along we have come and still no mention of any new revelation. So far as the truth that is dealt with is concerned, Second Timothy might have been written any time before the first imprisonment. It is in perfect harmony with all the apostle's previous ministry.
But now there are other Epistles to be considered. We have already seen that Paul makes no claim to being the sole depository of the revelation of the mystery. He says it was made known to Christ's holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit, and so we turn to consider the writings of other apostles and prophets asking, "Have we in them any intimation of a new revelation after Paul went to Rome?"
We may dismiss the Epistle of James as not touching on this question. It is addressed definitely to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, and is God's last word, as it were, to those of Israel who were still more or less linked in spirit to the synagogue. Bullingerites generally tell us that James was the first epistle to be written but this is absurd on the face of it. It is quite evident that James is a corrective epistle. It must have been written after the doctrine of justification by faith, as proclaimed by Paul, had been widely preached, for James writes to check those who were abusing that doctrine and using it as an occasion for the flesh. No one can read chapter 2 thoughtfully without seeing that it is based upon, and has in view throughout, Paul's teaching in Romans 4. James does not contradict Paul in the slightest degree, but he does show that there is another justification than that of which Paul speaks. The great apostle to the Gentiles deals particularly with justification by faith before God. James, the apostle to the twelve tribes, emphasizes justification by works before men.
First Peter was probably written before Paul's second imprisonment. Second Peter was certainly written afterwards, and all of Paul's letters were already in circulation when this epistle was penned. Note Peter's own words: "And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Pet. 3: 15, 16). It is impossible to understand these verses excepting in the light of the fact that all the Epistles of Paul were already in circulation. Does Peter then tell us that a new dispensation had come in, and that the middle wall between Jew and Gentile having now for the first time been broken down and the one Body formed, the believers to whom he writes, who were of Jewish extraction, are to recognize this new revelation? Not at all. Peter has never heard of any such thing. He puts Paul's writings on the same plane as the other Scriptures, but warns against the danger of misunderstanding, and so wresting them.
Long years after all the other apostles had gone home to heaven, we find the aged John still preserved in life and caring for the churches of God. According to apparently reliable Church History, he made his home in Ephesus, and moved about in old age among the other churches mentioned in the first three chapters of the Book of the Revelation, those churches which the Bullingerites declare never existed in the past but are still to arise as Jewish Assemblies in the Great Tribulation! Could anything be much more grotesque?
John's Epistles were written, according to the very best authority we have, some time in the last decade of the first century of the Christian era. Weigh this well. Paul had been in heaven for nearly thirty years. John was an inspired apostle, and surely would know, if any one did, of the new revelation and its importance. But we search his letters in vain for the least reference to anything of the kind. In fact, we find the very opposite. False teaching had come in, and he writes to garrison the hearts of the saints against it. In order to do this, he refers them back to that which was from the beginning, namely, to the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and His apostles, as a careful reading of his first Epistle makes abundantly clear. There is not the slightest basis for the thought that a fuller unfolding of truth had been vouchsafed to Paul and others about thirty years after Christ's ascension. It is the message that they had heard from the beginning which he again commends to them.
Let us imagine the late Dr. Bullinger, or some of his lesser satellites, living, not in the twentieth century, but in the closing days of the first century of the Christian era. Filled with their ideas of a new revelation given to Paul in prison, can you by any stretch of the imagination think of them writing epistles or treatises in which no reference whatever is made to the supposedly new doctrines? The fact of the matter is that these men today can scarcely open their mouths without speaking of these things. No matter what text they begin to expound, they almost invariably wind up with something about their system of rightly dividing the Word of Truth, and the importance of making the fine distinctions which they imagine they see in the Word. Yet inspired men like Peter and John, and without particularly going into it, we may add Jude, can expound and apply the Truth of God in the fullest possible way without any reference to anything of the kind. What is the only legitimate conclusion? It is that this whole ultra-dispensational system is an idle dream unsupported by the testimony of the inspired writings.
Error is never consistent. It always over-emphasizes some point generally unimportant and fails to recognize other things of great importance. Heresy is simply a school of opinion in which something is particularly pressed out of proportion to its logical place. Who would dare to say that this system we have been attempting to refute is not therefore heretical? Mark, I do not mean to class it with what Peter calls "damnable heresies," but it is certainly schismatic, and its votaries constitute a special school of opinion within the professed Church of God, a school that attaches great importance to something which after all is not evident to the vast majority of devoted and godly believers. That the effect of this can only be division and harmful, is not only self-evident, but has been abundantly manifest in many places. The Holy Spirit says, "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" (Titus 3: 10, 11). This is as certainly the Word of God as anything else revealed in the Scripture of Truth.
http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm#ch1
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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Wrongly Diving the Word of Truth
Ultra-Dispensationalism Examined in the Light of the Holy Scriptures
By Dr. Harry Ironside
Concluding Remarks
IN closing this review of the system of teaching which we have had before us, I do not think it necessary to go into the questions at any length of Soul-sleeping and Annihilation (conditional immortality), or the opposite view of the final restoration of Universalism. As already mentioned, the followers of the late Dr. E. W. Bullinger have largely taken up with the first type of teaching in Great Britain; whereas in America many of them have supported Universalist views. But these heretical teachings have been so ably answered on many different occasions by other writers, that it would seem like a work of supererogation to go into them now. I only mention them, in fact, as a warning to those who are dabbling with this system, for that which looks so innocent in the beginning often ends up in complete departure from "the faith once delivered to the saints."
One who was a leading advocate of Bullingerism on the west coast for many years, has put out literature recently which denies the Eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, the true personality of the Holy Spirit, and many other important truths. In order to support his restoration system, he has put out a private translation of the New Testament which, by his disciples, is generally accepted as absolute authority. Making no pretence to scholarship myself, but simply seeking to be a reverent student of the English Bible with whatever help I have been enabled to glean throughout more than forty years of studying the Word, I hesitated to pronounce upon many of the peculiar translations in this new New Testament, but several years ago it was my privilege to spend some time in company with the late Dr. A. T. Robertson, undoubtedly the foremost Greek scholar in America, and possibly without a peer elsewhere. I asked him if he had ever examined the Version in question. With a look of disgust, he said, "I certainly did. The editor had the impertinence to send me a copy, and asked me to commend his ignorance to others."
I said, "Doctor, would you give me in a few words your real estimate of this work, and give me the privilege of quoting you as occasion may arise?"
He replied, "I can give it to you in two words, Piffle and Puffle, and you may tell any one that that is my estimate of this vaunted translation."
In giving publicity to this conversation, my desire is to warn those who are carried away by great pretence to learning, who may not themselves be familiar with the original languages in which the Bible was written, and are therefore easily impressed by a parade of assumed scholarship.
Generally speaking, I have sought to avoid personalities in this discussion. Many otherwise excellent men have taken up these new views. I have no quarrel with men. I do not desire to reflect upon or belittle any of them. It is the Truth of God that is in question, and my appeal is therefore to the Word itself.
Singularly enough, since these papers began running serially, I have received abusive letters from a number of different teachers accusing me of attacking them. One such writes that he is neither a Bullingerite nor an ultra-dispensationalist, and resents being so designated. Each one must draw his own conclusions as to whether he holds the views I have endeavored to refute. "I speak as unto wise men. judge ye what I say."
In bringing these papers to a close, I would urge interested readers to remember the exhortation of the apostle, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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C.R. Stam and J.C. O'Hair twist the Gospel to thier own interpetation...You know exactly well what they teach wildb.
Thats why you fight what Yahushua said when he said: If you love ME , keep my commandments,
Stam has twisted you into buying into the "Pauline" doctrine, and that when Yahushua made statements like that they were to the Jews only...
As do you believe that all 4 Gospels were to the "Jews" only and that since Paul went to the "third" heaven he brought back "new" revelation for the "dispensational" [church] of today...
Paul did not have a "private" interpetation my freind.....Scripture is not of private interpetation.
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Author: Rev. Noah Hutchings
After serving in churches for many years, Noah Hutchings became interested in why those who profess the name of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord believe differently on hundreds of doctrinal issues, when it is so obvious that all cannot be right.
After an appraisal of the entire spectrum of denominational differences, the author reduces the many ecclesiastical variances to one common denominator: the Gospel of the Kingdom committed to Peter to preach to the Circumcision (Israel) and the Gospel of sovereign Grace committed to the Uncircumcision (Gentiles).
If you have ever wondered why there are so many denominations, sects, and cults, and why church memberships cannot agree on even simple doctrines like baptism, then you will want to read and study this book. This book is also used in seminaries, and thousands have been published.
another good read.....
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That is all.....
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WildB
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Stop being a false whitness berry.
Things that Differ by C. R. Stam (Paperback -
9 of 9 people found the following review helpful:
Best Book On Pauline Dispensationalism, January 13, 2005
By John Grove (Malibu, CA) - See all my reviews
This review is from: Things that differ: The fundamentals of dispensationalism
This book has been instrumental for years in opening the eyes of believers around the globe to the basic tenets of Mid-Acts dispensationalism and stands as the monumental book on "rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15).
I would also recommend other works by Stam:
1. Acts Dispensationally Considered.
2. The Controversy (now called "Holding Fast the Faithful Word")
3. Paul, His Apostleship and Message
4. Moses and Paul
His collection can be found through the Berean Bible Society
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/
Caution: These books change lives.
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3 of 3 people found the following review helpful:
A Dispensationalists Handbook, November 2, 2008
By Kevin Ball - See all my reviews
This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
I have read almost all of Stam's books and Things that Differ is his most important work as far as I'm concerned. No theological system is 100% correct and no one has all the answers but if you have lots of questions that never seem to get answered to your satisfaction I believe this book will leave you with the least amount unanswered. It's an easy read, it's full of verse references and it will answer your questions about subjects I hear people ask every day on the radio like, baptism, tithing, sign gifts, salvation and works/security etc... Give it a shot. It doesn't cost much and even if you wind up thinking Stam is crazy it will make you think and study to prove your own views are correct.
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7 of 10 people found the following review helpful:
You will finally understand the bible!!!, April 13, 2006
By Edward Cook "christianusedbooks" (Englewood, Co.) - See all my reviews
This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
I read this book 25 years ago and have continued to recommend it to those who have been trying to understand the bible. The bible will not be a mystery anymore. It will help anyone understand why some christian speak in tongues, get water baptized, believe they can loose their salvation, believe they are going through the tribulation, etc. and others don't. Can this book do all that? Absolutely!!!!!!!!
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9 of 13 people found the following review helpful:
A Very Important Read, December 21, 2005
By Q. McAuley - See all my reviews
This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
It is my opinion that Things That Differ is the most instructive book on Dispensationalism ever written, while being at the same time extraordinarily readable.
This book will help the reader understand the fundamentals of Dispensationalism (the teaching that God has dispensed His will in different ways, at different times, and for different reasons) and "rightly dividing the Word."
The necessity of accurately dividing the Bible (i.e. making the same distinctions in our study of the Bible that God made in His production of it) is at the heart of this book. The Author maintains that though the entire Bible is written for our learning, not all of it is addressed to us, nor written about us. This book helps illustrate the logical rules for interpretive study.
This book is sure to make your personal Bible study more profitable and meaningful.
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A Must Read!, July 16, 2009
By Peter Landowski (United States) - See all my reviews
This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
There is so much confusion within the church today. This book helps put to rest many of these confusions. Next to the Bible, this book changed my life and my walk as a Christian. I highly recommend reading this book.
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That is all.....
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barrykind
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wildb states:
quote:
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17) The MYSTERY “Hid in God” was the divine purpose to make of Jew and Gentile a whole new thing, that is, the Church, which is Christ’s Body. The revelation of this Mystery was committed to Paul, and it is in his writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church.
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This is one of the keys to the Berean Cult..
Check this out in detail....
This, if you check out C. Stams writings, and JC O'Hair, they do not take the gospels as for the church today, they do not take the writings of peter as for the church today..only Paul received the "mystery" for the church today..
Check it out, get your head out of the sand and check it out..beware.....
http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
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Author: Rev. Noah Hutchings
After serving in churches for many years, Noah Hutchings became interested in why those who profess the name of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord believe differently on hundreds of doctrinal issues, when it is so obvious that all cannot be right.
After an appraisal of the entire spectrum of denominational differences, the author reduces the many ecclesiastical variances to one common denominator: the Gospel of the Kingdom committed to Peter to preach to the Circumcision (Israel) and the Gospel of sovereign Grace committed to the Uncircumcision (Gentiles).
If you have ever wondered why there are so many denominations, sects, and cults, and why church memberships cannot agree on even simple doctrines like baptism, then you will want to read and study this book. This book is also used in seminaries, and thousands have been published.
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That is all.....
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Betty Louise
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You got that right, Carol. My Pastor is an Calvinist and is very much Eternal Security. Those who teach that you can lose your salvation forget the verse where those who go to hell that Jesus says "depart I never knew you" If you were once a Christian and lost your faith, that would either make God forgetful or mentally challenged, which He is NEITHER.
Jesus does not forget who His children are.
Jesus salvation gift to us eternal. It is not a gift that He gives us and takes back at will.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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That would be very funny since Calvinism is strong on eternal security.
Actually, Phil Johnson's "Really Bad Theology" section seems to be opposed to most of what barry believes.
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barrykind
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HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM
by: Dr. David E. Walker
� Copyright David E. Walker
This article is a chapter taken from the book The Bible Believer’s Guide to Dispensationalism
Excerpt posted with permission from the author
Their Founding Fathers
As detailed previously, hyper-dispensationalism (or ultra-dispensationalism) arose primarily from the teachings of E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913), and was later Americanized by J.C. O’Hair, Charles F. Baker, and Cornelius R. Stam (1908-2003). Modern day “Bereans” believe those men “recover[ed] the truth of Pauline revelation.”[1] The Berean Bible Society publishes the hyper’s periodical: The Berean Searchlight.
“Ultra” or “Hyper” -
Whether you use the Greek prefix (hyper) or the Latin (ultra), makes no difference. Shelton Smith (editor of The Sword of the Lord) creates his own definition by differentiating between an “ultra,” and a “hyper” dispensationalist: “By my definition, an ultra dispensationalist is somewhere between a dispensationalist and a hyper dispensationalist.”[2] Smith’s label is aimed at Bible believing, soul-winning Baptists, who reject the “saved the same” scenario. Smith knows they are not “hypers,” but he disagrees with them; hence, the label “ultra.”
Classic hyper-dispensationalism is a dead end divergence that kills any real “Bible Study.” Articles in The Berean Searchlight include such titles as: “Are the Twelve Apostles in the Body of Christ,” “No Other Doctrine But Right Division,” “Why Paul,” “The Confession of Sins,” “Paul, The Apostle of Grace,” “At What Age was Jesus Baptized,” and “The Devil and the Mystery.”
What is “Paul’s Gospel?”
Instead of “Paul’s gospel” including the message of salvation by “grace through faith,” (with an emphasis on the mystery of the body of Christ and the rapture) hypers attribute the doctrine of substitutionary atonement to Paul alone. Ricky Kurth of the Berean Bible Society answers the question: “Did Philip preach ‘Christ died for our sins’ to the Ethiopian eunuch?”
It is tempting to think that Philip preached this to the eunuch when we read that he “preached unto him Jesus” from Isaiah 53 (Acts 8:26-35). However, this message that was later given to the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 15:3,4) had not yet been revealed. Thus we know that Philip rather preached Christ according to the kingdom program.[3]
The “Issue” -
A person can easily be identified as a hyper by their unorthodox view of when the body of Christ began. In fact, this is “the issue.”[4]
Stam states their position:
We believe, and are sure, however, that the present dispensation began, not with Peter and the eleven at Pentecost, but with Paul, to whom the risen, glorified Lord later reveled His will and program for our day. [5]
Ryrie correctly notes that most “Dispensationalists say that the church began at Pentecost, while ultra dispensationalists believe that it began with Paul sometime later.”[6] Whether or not they hold to the “Acts 28” view (Bullinger), or the Acts 18 view (O’Hair) or the so-named “mid Acts” view (Acts 9 - Stam and Sadler) makes no difference. They all add an extra dispensation between Acts 2 and Paul. This is done to eliminate water baptism. [Bullinger, and his followers also did away with communion since they only held Paul’s prison epistles (of which 1 Cor. 11 is not included) as doctrine for the Church Age.]
Ironside, in his classic pamphlet Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, categorizes the errors of hypers who took Bullinger’s position:
1. The “four gospels are entirely Jewish.”[7]
2. The church in the book of Acts “is simply an aspect of the kingdom and is not the same as the Body of Christ.”[8]
3. Only Paul’s prison epistles are Church Age material. “Paul did not receive his special revelation of the mystery of the body until his imprisonment in Rome.”[9]
4. “The entire book of Revelation has to do with the coming age and has no reference to the Church today.”[10]
[Note: The fact that some of the doctrinal verses in Rev. 1-3 teach a person can lose his salvation imposes at least a primary application to the Tribulation, with a historical and devotional relevance to the Church Age. See: Rev. 4:1- “things which must be hereafter.”]
5. The bride of Jesus Christ is NOT the body of Christ, but “Jewish.”[11]
6. “The Christian ordinances . . . Have no real connection with the present economy.”[12]
Ruckman outlines the teachings of hyper-dispensationalism as follows:
1. There is a period of time called “THE GRACE OF GOD” which began in Acts 9 (Stam, Baker, Moore, Watkins) or in Acts 18 (O’Hare and others) or in Acts 28 (Bullinger . . .
2. Water baptism is not for “THIS AGE” since “THIS AGE” began in Acts 9 or Acts 13 or Acts 18 or Acts 28.
3. Bible-believing Baptists are heretics who do not follow PAULINE teaching (1 Ti. 1:16).
4. Since Paul did not COMMAND anyone to be baptized, it is UNSCRIPTURAL.
5. Since Paul was not “SENT TO BAPTIZE,” water baptism is PRE-PAULINE (1 Cor. 1).
6. The “ONE BAPTISM” of Ephesians 4 automatically cancels water baptism .[13]
“In The Body Or Out Of The Body?” -
As we have demonstrated before (see The Transition Periods) the Bible does not “chop up” as neatly as the hypers would have you to believe. They want the so-called “Dispensation of the Grace of God” to begin with Paul so they can seemingly get away from the different plan of salvation found in Acts 2:38. Note Sadler’s flawed comment:
The early chapters of Acts are merely a continuation of the earthly ministry of Christ to Israel. . . We must ask, who of the Acts 2 persuasion, preaches Acts 2:38 as the terms of salvation today?[14]
Well, who of the “mid Acts” position (following Paul) preaches Acts 19:6 as the terms of receiving the Holy Ghost? Biblical facts show four different “plans of salvation” (or “ways to get the Holy Ghost”) in the book of Acts before and after Paul’s conversion (see: Acts 2,8,16,19). All four “plans of salvation” fall under ONE dispensation. Hypers confuse the dispensing of truth with the revelation of truth during the transition from Jew to Gentile (see Romans 11) in Acts!
The beginning of the body of Christ is easy to determine when the Bible is taken at face value, instead of the understanding of men (i.e. Paul being “revealed” the mystery). The way for the spiritual body of Christ was made at Calvary (Eph. 2:14-16), even though it “hinged” upon the glorification and ascension of His physical body. While it found full manifestation on the day of Pentecost, it did not necessarily begin there, and certainly did not begin after Pentecost. Ruckman:
The “ONE BODY” did not begin with Paul at all. The verse (vs. 16) says that the reconciliation of Jew and Gentile (see “the mystery” given in 3:4-6) began at CALVARY: “in the one body by the cross.”[15]
Observe the following verses:
Eph 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4-5
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost . . .
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The fact that believers were “added to the church” (Acts 2:47), and also “added to the Lord” (Acts 5:14) before Paul’s conversion, indicate that the body existed prior to Paul. [Stam does NOT comment on Acts 5:14 in his commentary,[16] nor does Sadler in his booklet The Historical Beginning of the Church!] Additionally, 1 Cor. 12:13 proves that Paul was preaching the mystery of the body before Acts 18! Other verses that prove conclusively that the body of Christ was present before Paul are listed below:
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: . . .
Romans 16:7 is so clear that hyper-dispensationalists must make a difference between being “in Christ,” and “in the body of Christ.” Joel Finck writes in The Berean Searchlight: “Being ‘in Christ’ is not necessarily the same as being ‘in the body’ of Christ.”[17] This is a grave inaccuracy. Paul said that the Corinthians were “in Christ” (1 Cor. 1:30) and also that they were “the body of Christ.”
1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Galatians 1:13 and Acts 9:5 confirm that the body of Christ was on the earth as “the church.” Otherwise, how could Paul (as an unsaved man) persecute Jesus when He was at the right hand of God? Hypers assume that the body of Christ could not exist until it was revealed to Paul. What they do not understand, is that revelation of a truth has nothing to do with the reality of the particular truth. For instance, the death of Jesus was an atonement for individual sinners, even though it was not revealed as such until Acts 8. Paul never said the body of Christ began with him, he only said that the “mystery” of it was “revealed” to him (Eph. 3:3,4).
What hypers eventually do is invent another other “body” (one before Acts 9) called the “Kingdom Church.”[18] Those in the “Kingdom Church” would include Peter, James and John. Since Peter, James and John were baptized by the Spirit in Acts 2 (which would place them in the body), hypers are forced to “teach two or three baptisms of the Spirit.”[19]
Hypers fail to associate John 17:21 (“that they also may be one IN US”) with the promise of Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4,5 (which see). While Baker admits the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, he denies that it placed them in the “body of believers, as described in 1 Corinthians 12:13.”[20]
Furthermore, hypers must get around the fact that Peter was writing to those “in Christ” (1 Pet. 3:16; 5:14), thus proving he was in the body. Finck alleges that Peter uses the phrase “in a redemptive sense rather than the dispensational sense of being in the body of Christ.”[21] He does this to discount Peter’s epistles for Church Age doctrine.
Hypers must also ignore plain references to other Jews (remember Paul was a Jew) living during Paul’s time that were said to be a part of the “one body.”
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Finck comments: “Paul is not saying in Rom. 12:5 that every believer living at that time was a member of the body of Christ.”[22] Hypers invent a special class of “body mystery believers” converted under Paul. According to their system Romans 12:5 might read this way: “So, those Gentiles who were converted after my conversion and revelation of the mystery, are one body, which is different than the kingdom body of Jewish believers who received a different gospel by Peter to the circumcision.” They fail to remember that Peter’s GENTILE converts, were saved just like Paul’s converts (see Acts 10)!
“One Baptism” � -
Their attempt to prove the body of Christ is not in Acts 2 is not their only impairment. They insist: “water baptism ends”[23] in Acts 28 with the rejection of the gospel from Israel. They assert: “Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, the teacher of the Church, never once commands us to be baptized with water?”[24] They answer the question, “Should I be baptized” with:
While many pastors would say “yes,” the Apostle Paul says “no.” Water baptism was once a part of God’s program for His people Israel, but it is not a part of God’s program for His people today, the Body of Christ.[25]
Although Paul never answered that question in his writings, hypers emphatically answer “in his name.” Paul answered with his works (he was baptized, and he baptized others)!
They lump baptism in with circumcision (Jewish), miracles (sign to the Jews), healing, and tongues. They think the reason Paul was “thankful” that he did not baptize any more converts (other than Crispus and Gaius) was because he was NOT to do any more baptisms.[26] They believe Eph. 4:4,5 cancels out any water baptism for this age.
Hung Up To Dry
Below are the Bible answers to this anti-baptism (dry-cleaning) fixation:
Answer One
The commission in Matthew 28 is NOT distinctly Jewish, or the word “nations” would not have been used. [All the confusion over the different “commissions” overlooks the fact that Paul is the only apostle that fulfilled the “Tribulation commission” of Mark 16:16-18 (all except drinking the poison).]
Answer Two
The mode of baptism in Matt. 28 is NOT the same as Acts 2:38. All three names of the Godhead are used in Matt. 28 while only the name of “Jesus Christ” is used in Acts 2.
Answer Three
All three names (plural) are said to be a “name” (singular). This is interesting, because in Acts 10:48 Gentiles are baptized by Peter, not in the name of Jesus Christ, but in the “name (singular) of the Lord” - “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.”
Answer Four
Church history testifies to the fact of believers baptism (immersion) after conversion. Hypers believe that the truth was missing all these years, and was finally revealed and “recovered.”[27]
Answer Five
Paul was baptized, and we are to follow Paul. To this contention, hypers may respond, “Paul was circumcised too, but we should not get circumcised.” This comparison is not justifiable. For, Paul was circumcised as a Jew, but baptized as a believer in Jesus Christ. Baptism was something NEW CONVERTS did! Paul was a new convert, placed into the “one body,” and was baptized as a “new creature,” not a Jew or Gentile! As Ruckman states, “Paul COMMANDED NO ONE to attend church, pass out tracts, proselyte Baptists who are already saved, or argue about water baptism.”[28]
Answer Six
Furthermore, Peter, James, and John were all baptized, and so was Jesus Christ. Hypers claim that Christ’s baptism was his priestly “anointing.”[29] They go to the Greek and are thereby confused with “washing” and “baptism.” Jesus was not anointed as a priest on earth! His earthly ministry was that of a prophet (John 1:25; 4:19; 6:14; 7:40; Deut. 18:18). The priestly role of Jesus Christ took place after He died and rose again! See: Heb. 2:17; 3:1; 4:14.
Answer Seven
Paul baptized his own converts, AFTER Acts 9! The meaning of 1 Cor. 1:17 is clear if one adheres to the context. A verse without a context is useless. Christ did not send ANYONE just to baptize, but to preach!
Answer Eight
Just because the phrase “one baptism” is used, does not annul water baptism. If it did, Paul would not have baptized anyone, and would have COMMANDED believers NOT to be baptized in water.
The context again clears up any misunderstanding. Notice the framework is unity: “one another,” (vs. 2); “unity of the Spirit” (vs. 3); and seven “ones” in the passage (verses 4-6). Paul is saying that there is only one “saving baptism.” This would match Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12; 1 Cor. 12:13 and Matt. 3:11. That must be the correct “interpretation,” since we know there are MANY “lords,” MANY “faiths” and MANY “spirits:”
1 Cor 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Confession of Sin � -
As alluded to earlier, hypers sever the word of God up into such thin slices, that ONLY Paul’s epistles (and maybe only his prison epistles) are allowed for Church Age doctrine. Once that presupposition is taken, Peter, James, and John are not allowed in the body of Christ, although they are “in Christ” (1 Peter 3:16; 5:14). To them, Peter’s epistles cannot contain ANY Church Age doctrine, nor can 1 John through Jude.
This brings us to an important question: Should a Christian confess his sins to God for forgiveness according to 1 John 1:9? While the hypers do not believe in sinless perfection (like some Holiness groups), they do, however, preclude a Christian confessing his sins, distort the Grace of God, and fail to understand the “standing and state” of the believer.
Hyper Ken Lawson, says that 1 John. 1:9 “has caused untold harm and detriment to the people of God.”[30] He thinks a Christian should not feel guilty about his sins (after salvation) since “God wishes for us to enjoy the gift of salvation.”[31] He claims that God will not “continue to show him [the believer] the cold shoulder”[32] if he “fails to confess wrongdoing.”
So, hypers do not believe a Christian’s fellowship with Jesus Christ is based on their personal, holy walk. Lawson’s arguments against the “Father, son, relationship” understanding of 1 John 1 are as follows:
It is based on a performance system of conditional blessing, and shifted my gaze away from Christ and His grace to my own faithfulness (or usually failure) to confess.[33]
Repentance, and confession of sin (both of which hypers snub) are CLEARLY a part of the believer’s fellowship with God the Father, in every dispensation! Peter had to confess his love to Jesus Christ, before he could be restored (John 21), and we are not any better than him! Who (but hypers) would think that sin was not acknowledged (Ps. 51:3) with Peter’s three confessions in John 21?
Over and over again, fellowship (not salvation) is predicated upon repentance - the stem of confession. Hypers do NOT believe in REPENTANCE. Note the following verses:
Lev 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
Isa 64:6-7
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Prov 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Num 5:7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Neh 1:6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.
Ps 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Ps 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
Josh 7:19 And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.
Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Hos 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
2 Sam 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Matt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
The last two references are during the “dispensation of the mystery.” How do you “judge” yourself without confessing and repenting of your sins? Answer: you cannot, and some do not, therefore, they fall under the chastening hand of Almighty God according to Hebrews 12 (which hypers disregard for the Church Age).
The real Berean who “rightly” divides, (instead of “wrongly shredding the word”) will notice that the people who confess in Acts 19 do so under Paul’s preaching. If they confessed publicly to men, you KNOW they had to confess to God! In fact Paul attributed God’s presence to himself while he was preaching and teaching the word.
2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
The next problem that Lawson has with the word of God, concerns prayer and honesty:
If what I believed concerning confession was true, I was probably ‘out of fellowship’ much of the time, and so were most believers.[34]
Yes, “most believers” are “out of fellowship” with the Lord, for only through a constant “cleansing of ourselves” (2 Cor. 7:1) through PRAYER (1 Thess. 5:17) can we be “in fellowship.” Notice Lawson’s excuse: “I had to honestly admit to myself that I found it extremely difficult to confess all my daily sins on a consistent basis.” So, since prayer and confession is “difficult,” hypers find scriptural alibis to disobey 1 John 1:7-9, as well as Paul’s command to “pray without ceasing.”
Note also, that the verse does not stipulate confession of every sin. It simply states a fact: When you mess up, you can go to the Lord, confess, and the blood of Jesus (the basis for forgiveness) will clean you.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Lawson (as all hypers do) reverts to Paul for a defense:
Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, is silent in all his writings on confession of sins for forgiveness, parental or otherwise.[35]
Paul never forbad the practice either. Should we not observe the omissions as well as the commands? As pointed out earlier, Paul did NOT rebuke the Ephesians from “confessing” (Acts 19) when he preached. In fact, Paul’s preaching pivoted upon the message of REPENTANCE (which is the heart of confession):
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Going further from the truth, Lawson tries to prove 1 John 1 is not relevant to a Church Age saint, because “A believer cannot walk in darkness any more than an unbeliever can walk in the light.”[36] Has he failed to read the favorite book of hyper-dispensationalists - Ephesians?
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:11-14
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
If the Lord commands us to “walk as children of light” (Eph. 5:8), then obviously there are believers who are NOT “walking in the light.” The “sleeper” in Eph. 5:14, is NOT an unbeliever, he is a Christian. Paul often edified the believer to “walk in the light” instead of darkness:
Rom 13:11-13
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
1 Thess 5:4-8
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
While it is true that positionally, every child of God is “in the light” (in Christ, in heavenly places), practically 1 John 1 applies along with Paul’s epistles (Ephesians, Romans, and 1 Thessalonians) in a doctrinal manner to the New Testament saint. [Hypers forget that good “sound doctrine” (1 Tim. 1:10) refers not only to the revelation of the “Pauline mystery,” but to BEHAVIOR! Read 1 Tim. 1:9]
Some hypers may not believe in “sinless perfection” (like some Holiness groups) but they do believe in “constant fellowship.” Notice Lawson again:
If any believers were living in a state of broken fellowship, it was the Corinthians.
A. There were carnal divisions and contentions among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:1-3).
B. They were infatuated with worldly wisdom (1 Cor. 1:28-2:5; 3:18-23).
C. They were judging things which they should not and failing to judge things which they should (1 Cor. 4:1-5; 5:6).
D. They were allowing sexual immorality in the local church and were proud of it (1 Cor. 5:1,2).
E. They were taking each other to court before the unbelievers (1 Cor. 6:1-12).
F. They were visiting harlots (1 Cor. 6:13-20).
G. They were proud of their knowledge and causing weaker brethren to stumble (1 Cor. 8).
H. They were questioning Paul’s authority and apostleship (1 Cor. 9:1-6)
I. They were prone to idolatry by lusting after evil things (1 Cor. 10).
J. They had disorders at church, including making a mockery of the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11).
K. They were enamored with the spiritual gifts but were failing to exercise them in love (1 Cor. 12-14).
L. They were doubting the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:12-19).
M. If all this was not enough, they were stingy in their contribution to the poor saints (2 Cor. 8:9).
. . . . Moreover, there is no command to confess their sins in order to receive forgiveness and restoration to fellowship. On the contrary, Paul assures them that ‘God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His son Jesus Christ our Lord’ (1 Cor. 1:9). It is a fellowship based upon God’s faithfulness.[37]
So, basically, Lawson is teaching that the immoral living Corinthians were in sweet fellowship with a holy God. Anyone who can read the letter to the Corinthians from Paul, and get that summation, would probably think the Koran contains good marital advice! Read the following verses and note how they drive at confession and repentance: 1 Cor 3:1-4; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Cor 4:2; 1 Cor 4:6; 1 Cor 4:14; 1 Cor 4:18-20; 1 Cor 5:1-2; 1 Cor 5:6-7; 1 Cor 5:13; 1 Cor 6:5; 1 Cor 6:18; and on and on.
The very fact of their repentance (given in 2 Corinthians) stipulates confession:
2 Cor 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2 Cor 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
2 Cor 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Hypers teach Satan (not the Lord) burdens the believer with conviction of sin and guilt:
Guilt is a killer, a killer of our joy, our peace, and our enjoyment of intimacy with God. If Satan can use guilt (which our Lord has already taken away) to use as a wedge to separate us from God, his strategy to take us as a captive in the battle is secure. . . . Our fellowship with Jesus Christ our Lord can never be broken.[38]
They disregarded Paul’s comment: “ye sorrowed after a godly [not devily] sort” (2 Cor. 7:11), and the repercussion of broken fellowship in the life of the believer - the Judgment Seat of Christ. Why the Judgment Seat of Christ, if a believer is never out of fellowship? Adam was saved by “grace” and “the blood of a lamb” (Gen. 3:21) and he was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP with God! Hypers abandon the distinction (“rightly dividing” right?) between the Christian’s standing and state. Scofield appositely comments: “Positionally he [the believer] is ‘perfected forever’ (Heb. 10:14), but looking within, at his state, he must say, ‘ Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect’ (Phil. 3:12).”[39]
This “unfatherly grace” of hypers culminates with a hollow answer to the problem of sin in the life of a believer:
. . . .even the most mature Christians do sin. When this happens, the first thing to remember is our complete forgiveness in Christ Jesus. This will prevent us from going on another guilt trip. . .[40]
Was the “godly sorrow” (2 Cor.) just a “low self esteem” guilt trip? Or, was it true repentance and confession of sin? Lawson continues:
When a Christian sins, we should agree with God’s Word that it is wrong (confess) and forsake the behavior or attitude . . . So we confess our sins, not in order to receive forgiveness, but because we wish to be properly attuned to grace and to thus glorify Him who has forgiven us all trespasses.[41]
What is all this “behavior,” and “attitude” garbage? Is it Bible? “We wish to be properly attuned?” After writing two articles with the intent of impeding the confession of sin to God, Lawson says that we should confess our sins (but not for forgiveness)! Do you think the Corinthians just “properly attuned” themselves, or did they actually CONFESS THEIR SINS because they wanted restored fellowship? How could they “repent” without confession? A hyper no more believes in repentance for today (Church Age) than he does sabbath worship.
Lawson’s conclusion about the doctrinal meaning of 1 John 1:9 is as shallow as a teardrop:
Our key verse in 1 John 1:9 is found to be a salvation verse for Israel looking for the return of Christ to establish His earthly, Davidic, Millennial Kingdom . . . In conclusion, 1 John 1:9 is a salvation verse which fits ‘hand in glove’ with the Prophecy program of the Gospel of the kingdom.[42]
If it is a salvation verse for Israel in the Tribulation, why is the word “all” used in 1 John 1? Note: “all sin” (vs. 7); “all unrighteousness” (vs. 9). Rev. 14:11 explains that there is NO REMEDY (confession or otherwise) for taking the mark of the beast. A person will no more be washed from “all sin” in the Tribulation by the confession of it, than a person NOW can be saved by the golden rule!
If 1 John 1:9 is a salvation verse for Israel in the Tribulation, why are the believers in 1 John said to be “sons of God” awaiting the “appearing” (not advent) of the Lord. No Tribulation saint will “be like him” (1 John 3) because no Tribulation saint will be a member of the body of Christ.
“The blood of Jesus Christ” did NOT cleanse anyone during the gospel of the kingdom message in Matthew, Mark or Luke. 1 John cannot be applied to Israel. [This brings up a difference between the “gospel of the kingdom” prior to the cross, and “the gospel of the kingdom” after the cross, preached during the Tribulation. In the Tribulation, the “gospel of the kingdom” will include the “faith of Jesus” (Rev. 13:10; 14:12). That is, a person must believe that Jesus Christ is not only Messiah, but the Saviour. Belief in the substitutionary atonement of Christ is crucial to a person’s salvation in the Tribulation period.]
Fruits of Hyper-dispensationalism -
The heresies of hyper-dispensationalists produce such “deep Bible study,” that its adherents drown under its influences. Their teachings are inconsistent with the scriptures, and manufacture Christians inactive. Wining lost souls to Jesus Christ is not the “drive” of hypers, even though it was for the apostle Paul. They are obsessed with stopping water baptism, and “following Paul” nowhere. As Dr. Ruckman suitably summarizes: “The only theme song they have is “How dry I am, how dry I am,” and their teaching and preaching is as dry as their baptism”[43]
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[1] Sadler, Paul M. “From the Editor,” The Berean Searchlight 05/03: 4.
[2] Smith, Shelton., “One Book Rightly Divided Reflects Ultra-dispensationalism,” The Sword of
the Lord 07/05/02: 8B
[3] Kurth, Ricky. “Question Box,” The Berean Searchlight 03/05: 21.
[4] Ruckman, Peter S., Hyper-Dispensationalism (Pensacola: Bible Baptist Bookstore, 1985) 6.
[5] Cornelius R. Stam “True Spirituality,” The Berean Searchlight 02/05: 11.
[6] Ryrie, Charles C., Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995) 197.
[7] Ironside, H.A., Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York: Loizeaux Brothers, 1938) 9.
[8] Ibid.
[9] Ibid.
[10] Ibid.
[11] Ibid.
[12] Ibid.
[13] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 20.
[14] Sadler, The Berean Searchlight 03/03: 3.
[15] Ruckman, Peter S., Ruckman’s Bible References (Pensacola: Bible Baptist Bookstore, 1997)
297.
[16] Stam, C.R. Acts Dispensationally Considered Vol. I, II (Germantown Wisconsin: Berean
Bible Society, 1954) 184-189.
[17] Finck, Joel W. “Are the Twelve Apostles in the Body of Christ,” The Berean Searchlight
08/03: 19.
[18] Sadler, Paul M., The Historical Beginning of the Church (Germantown, WI: Berean Bible
Society, 1996) 15.
[19] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 21.
[20] Baker, Charles F. A Dispensational Synopsis of the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Grace
Publications, 1989) 33.
[21] Finck, The Berean Searchlight 08/03: 19.
[22] Ibid.
[23] Stam, C.R. Water Baptism (Germantown Wisconsin: Berean Bible Society, 1998) 10.
[24] Ibid., 12.
[25] Kurth, Ricky Now That I Believe (Part 2) (Germantown Wisconsin: Berean Bible Society,
2004) 17.
[26] Stam, Water Baptism, 14.
[27] Sadler, Paul M. “From the Editor,” The Berean Searchlight 05/03: 4.
[28] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 20.
[29] Companion Bible (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1990) 1313.
[30] Lawson, Ken, “The Confession of Sin,” The Berean Searchlight 01/03: 14.
[31] Ibid., 16.
[32] Ibid., 17.
[33] Ibid.
[34] Ibid.
[35] Ibid., 18.
[36] Ibid., 19.
[37] Lawson, Ken, “The Confession of Sin Cont‘d,” The Berean Searchlight 02/03: 15, 16.
[38] Ibid., 18, 20.
[39] Scofield, C.I., Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, 1896)
53.
[40] Lawson, Ken, “The Confession of Sin Cont‘d,” The Berean Searchlight 02/03: 21.
[41] Ibid., 22.
[42] Ibid., 17,22.
[43] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 20.
quote:
Excerpt posted with permission from the author.
Also go to link for HA Ironsides, Litt. D. studies:
http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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posted
quote:
Berean Searchlight, the foremost ultradispensationalist journal since 1940. This group was founded by Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair, two Chicago-area ultradispensationalists whose ministries peaked in the '40s and '50s respectively. Their distinctive teaching is that the apostle Paul inaugurated a new dispensation of grace, unveiling a brand-new gospel and (according to some) a whole new way of salvation. Paul's teaching is thus set against the rest of the New Testament and interpreted in a way that renders most of Jesus' teaching utterly irrelevant to the present age. Thus the Word of God is mangled in the name of Bereanism. Though no longer the force it was in the mid-20th century, this organization has stayed alive by adopting the cultish strategy of targeting untaught lay people to whom this bizarre hermeneutical approach (buttressed with selective proof-texting) appears deep and sophisticated.[/QUOTE]
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark.htm
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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