quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
The rcc does this with their practices and history:

Praying to Mary DENIES Y'shua and what He accomplished for us.

Praying to dead saints DENIES Y'shua and what He accomplished for us.

Praying for people who already DIED, who's eternal destiny is SETTLED - DENIES the personal need of salvation and repentance - which goes AGAINST what Y'shua taught and did.

Making people PAY to have infants baptized - threatening and scaring them that if they didn't, and the baby died, it won't get to heaven (historical FACT)
DENIES CHRIST.

Offering indulgencies for money DENIES CHRIST.

Attaching ANY condition on forgiveness (done in confessional booths) DENIES the FINALITY of Y'shua's DEATH on the cross.

Bring in PAGAN practices, observances, and tradition DENIES YAHWEH

Killing TRUE saints for trying to bring God's Word to people in their own language (historical FACT) is the WORK OF SATAN - DENYING YAHWEH


D)

Yahweh warns US that MANY will follow their sensuality - these false teachers lust for power and control.

Many many DO follow these false teachers BLINDLY - and WILL NOT HEED warnings we give, and TRUTH we present.


E)

Yahweh also warns US because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.

And HAS IT EVER - SO SO many lost people equate Christianity with catholicism and WANT NO PART OF IT.

Bring up Christianity to some today and they will reply with the RAMPANT acceptance and covering up of sexual abuse by priests.


F)

So GOOD news though.

Yahweh tells us their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Their is NO escaping His Judgment and justice

HALLELU YAH

Yahweh Elohim WILL NOT Be Mocked

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quote:

---

Why would one be so fixed on trying to prove the wrongs or rights of a certain group or religion? After all, aren't we all Christians? And didn't Jesus give us that last command to "love everyone"? Or is my Bible reading tainted and this does not appear there?

The reason I say this is that this post seems to destructive than constructive which I don't think it's very Christian to try and judge or create words to inflict some type of hate or resentment to another Christian group.

It's easy to bash others, anyone can do that!!! But why not let God decide on what to do with them while you focus on serving Him instead of trying to fuel a fire.

---

quote:

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I agree with Chuck.

By the way, isn't the Catholic Church the church founded by Peter? Wasn't Peter their first Pope?

There are always going to be some bad apples but Catholics as a whole are followers of Christ and there are more decent, pious people then the few greedy and powerhungry ones. [/QB]

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quote:

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There are always going to be some bad apples but Catholics as a whole are followers of Christ and there are more decent, pious people then the few greedy and powerhungry ones.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by MentorsRiddle:
Did you know that the Catholic Church holds books of the bible in their archive and will not let anyone read them? They do this because it would discredit their power.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MentorsRiddle:
I am not going to start another debate on this thread.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by MentorsRiddle:


But the catholic church has openly admited it has ommited books and kept them at bay...

---

Not this old chestnut again. Books such as the Gospel of Thomas were junked from the 'authorised' bible as they failed the tests to be included. The early chuch was awash with books written by different sects going off in all sorts of random directions. A good example is the Gnostic gospels, which may a showing in the Da Vinci Code book by Dan Brown.
 

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Posted by nan29 (Member # 5761) on :
 
I thought this site was about promoting unity among Christians - not bashing other Christian religions.

I think everyone has a lot to answer to God. Every one should be concerned about their own salvation and not criticize others
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a09.htm

Judging Catholics

Question: Who has the right to judge whether Roman Catholics are Christians...surely not you!

Answer: You are right. I am not the one who would judge Catholics, and indeed anybody else. I am a nobody. God is the Judge of the world and we shall all appear before Him. It would be awful on that Day for every devout religious person - whether Roman Catholic, Protestant or whatever his religion might be - to find that his or her hope for salvation was unfounded.

Yet God is good. During our lifetime He has given us the Holy Scriptures - His inspired Word - for teaching and correction (1 Timothy 3:16) that we may discover our errors and know the true way to heaven. Moreover, the Lord wants His people to be a light in this dark world. They must proclaim the truth; they must expose error. God's servants "must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth" (2 Timothy 2:24,25). They must speak the truth in love, even though they are falsely accused of being judgemental and "bashing Catholics."

There is much in the Roman Catholic religion that is biblical and wholesome. Yet, sadly, erroneous human traditions have infiltrated Catholicism to such an extent that the Gospel is poisoned. Rome's message is "another" gospel.

Why do I point out the errors of the Roman religion? Is it because I enjoy being contentious? Is it because I'm "anti-catholic"? No! God knows my heart and my motives. I am "pro-catholic"! I am compelled by love to speak out. I care and pray for Catholics that they might turn from a distorted religion to a living relationship with Jesus Christ according to the truth of His Word.


Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes. < BACK TO Q&A

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

He says it well. Spend some time understanding the errors that has led the RCC into apostacy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a21.htm

Are Catholics Christian?

Question: Are Catholics Christians? If not, why? This is not a negative question. I desire to honestly know if Catholics are considered to be part of the Christian faith.

Answer: This is a most important question anybody can ask. Am I a Christian? Or am I a Christian in name only? Do I have a living relationship with Christ?

Well then, who has the right to call himself Christian? Like the Jews of old, people still fool themselves in thinking that they are right with God because of some ritual (like circumcision or baptism) or because of their heritage ("I was born into a Christian family and attend a Christian church").

According to the Bible, a true Christian is chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed and forgiven by the blood of Christ, illuminated by the Spirit, knows and obeys the truth of the Gospel. A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for his salvation, and gives all praise to God for His grace. (Please read Ephesians 1:3-13).

Does a Roman Catholic fit this description? Superficially he does. He believes in Christ and speaks about the grace of God. But if he follows the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, regretfully I must say that he does not really believe in Christ nor does he know the grace of God. Please allow me to explain.

The Gospel teaches that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28). God regards a person just and righteous who trusts wholeheartedly in Jesus, and who does not attempt to win God's favour by his imperfect obedience of the Law. Sadly, Roman theology has rejected God's way of salvation. To faith, Rome adds a set of deeds (many of which are human inventions) and curses anyone who dares to completely trust in Christ alone for salvation. 'If anyone says that the faith that justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.' (Council of Trent, session 6, cannon 12).

We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.

Again, we assert that we are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). The Bible clearly defines what grace is: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Romans 4:4) Grace is unmerited favour, as opposed to the merit of works. Rome outwardly teaches that we are justified by grace. However the "grace" of Catholicism is a very strange species. The Catholic Church states that "we can then merit for ourselves...the graces needed...for the attainment of eternal life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2010). To merit grace is a contradiction in terms. Rome would not allow you to receive the gift of salvation with a grateful heart, but would have you work like a slave to merit it.

We are forced to conclude that the message of Rome is a different gospel. It is a false gospel. I say this with much sadness and concern for the multitudes of Catholics who blindly follow this false system. I must warn every Catholic that Christ is of no avail to you unless you relinquish any confidence in yourself and your works, and in every other creature. Faith must be in Christ - alone!

Having said that, I gladly add the following caveat. There may be some nominal Catholics who, either out of ignorance or willful rejection of Catholic doctrine, truly trust in Christ alone for their salvation. They are Christians and really belong to God.

The book of Revelation describes a deceptive and false religious system named Babylon. It is not my intention here to discuss the exact nature of this Babylon - the principle remains the same. Some Christians are trapped inside this deceptive system and God gives them a specific command: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). Thank God that even in Babylon, God has His people. If you are a Christian entrapped in the false religious system of Rome, hear God's calling and come out of her. You will experience liberty and life like never before.

Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes. < BACK TO Q&A

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The name of this forum is the "Exposing False Teaching", and that is what you are being presented with in this thread, Nan.

From its foundation, its re-grouping after the close of the old 711 Web Cafe, the Christian BBS has stood for the Truth of God's Word, and the basic tenents of the Christian Faith.

The truth is that the Roman Catholic Church presents a false gospel.
 

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Posted by nan29 (Member # 5761) on :
 

quote:

---

The name of this forum is the "Exposing False Teaching", and that is what you are being presented with in this thread, Nan.

---

Caretaker, I think you present yourself well, but I think others on the board speak from limited knowledge. If we’re to expose false teachings, I think we should get it right. I also think it would be great to have an expert on Catholicism here to rebut. I’m not an expert on Catholicism. But I know for a fact that Catholics don’t pray TO Mary they pray for her intercession. The Hail Mary’s are not about asking for forgiveness they’re about honoring Mary and asking her to pray for them. Just as we have a thread here asking for prayers from others (Prayer Requests), Catholics ask Mary and the Saints to pray for them (they may also ask their parents, friends, priests, relatives etc just as other Christians do). I think if Jesus honored Mary, as His mother there is nothing wrong with Catholics honoring Mary as the mother of Jesus, hence the mother of God and asking for her help in matters. Catholics believe that Christ IS the way, not a mediator. He IS God. I know a lot of Catholics and they are very devoted to Jesus and know that salvation is achieved through Jesus alone. Some Catholic practices may be suspect, I agree, but I would like to know the history behind those practices. I think I’m going to do some research on this. Thanks.
 

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Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
They DO pray to mary.

Go to a rcc debate forum and watch catholics DEFEND praying to mary.

It goes MUCH deeper than the "hail mary's"

If someone is trying to talk to mary (who's dead) it's a PRAYER.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
God bless you Nan;

Please do your research, and Dr. Mizzi has an excellent quality of information, and being an ex-Catholic brings credibility to the table. Do not buy-into the ecumenical party-line, but use the Word as your guide for Truth, and look critically at those who are contrary.

My quotes are from the Current on-line Catholic Cathechism.

Catholic Cathechism:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

47. The RC teaches: Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (Catechisms 968-970, 2677).

The Bible teaches: Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. I Timothy 2:5, John 14:13&14, I Peter 5:7.

Main Entry: me•di•a•trix
Pronunciation: -'A-triks
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin, feminine of mediator
Date: 15th century
: a woman who is a mediator


http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0685.htm


Prayer to Our Lady, Health of the Sick
Virgin, most holy, Mother of the Word Incarnate, Treasurer of graces, and Refuge of sinners, I fly top your motherly affection with lively faith, and I beg of you the grace ever to do the will of God.

Into your most holy hands I commit the keeping of my heart, asking you for health of soul and body, in the certain hope that you, my most loving Mother, will hear my prayer.

Into the bosom of your tender mercy, this day, every day of my life, and at the hour of my death, I commend my soul and body.

To you I entrust all my hopes and consolations, all my trials and miseries, my life and the end of my life, that all my actions may be ordered and disposed according to your will and that of your Divine Son. Amen.


http://www.justforcatholics.org/a64.htm

Every Christian should consider Mary with respect. She is forever to be called blessed. Yet, I think it is a sign of disrespect when people expect from her things that she cannot give. Why would people pray to her, when the Bible clearly teaches us that we should pray to God and that God alone knows our hearts (1 Kings 8:39)? Why would people ask grace from Mary, when the Bible teaches us that all grace comes from God (1 Peter 5:10)? Why should people call her "our life" and "our hope", when the Bible teaches us that the Lord is our life and hope (Colossians 3:4; 1 Timothy 1:1)? Why would people make her a mediator, when the Bible says that there is one mediator, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5)? And why should people trust even the hour of their death wholly to her care? Isn't the Good Shepherd of the sheep willing to keep His own and bring them safely to glory (John 10:27,28)?
Sadly, in practice many Catholics worship Mary because they pray to her, trust in her and attribute to her titles and honors, which belong to God alone. May God grant them repentance. Rather than looking unto a creature, we should follow Mary in her godly example and apply to the Lord for salvation and all spiritual blessings.
 

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Posted by nan29 (Member # 5761) on :
 
Well said, Drew. Thanks for your feedback. I personally have issues with the Catholic Church but I don't want to generalize and accuse all Catholics of believing false teachings. Many Catholics aren't very traditional and do stray from some of the teachings of the Catholic Church, but they don't waver in their love for Christ and do keep Christ first and foremost in their minds and hearts. I think many Catholics today would consider themselves Christians first, Catholic second.

God Bless,
Nan
 

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Posted by Chuck Schwab (Member # 5857) on :
 
So do you people lashing out at Catholics believe that we should all don white hoods and robes and speak against Katholics, Koons, and Kikes under a burning cross at night?

You seem to embrace much of what the KKK would. Should you join your white arian nation who believes in God and spread your hatebreeding ways to our children? After all, maybe we can make the world 10 times worse so God will come sooner. Or maybe talk about Charlie Manson some more and learn of his brainwashing techniques, I heard Jim Jones was pretty good at that as well.

Or maybe you should try to find something constructive to do like reaching out to nonbelievers in Christ and help them find the Lord. Instead, you preach your trash to a bunch of noncatholics trying to instill your hate into impressionable minds. Find a Catholic forum and tell them how you feel, at least you are directing it towards the right group of people then instead of people who already agree with you. Truly I tell you, you have lost love in your heart.

This is not directed towards everyone. The guilty parties will try to defend their "godly" actions.
 

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Posted by MentorsRiddle (Member # 2108) on :
 

quote:

---

So do you people lashing out at Catholics believe that we should all don white hoods and robes and speak against Katholics, Koons, and Kikes under a burning cross at night?

You seem to embrace much of what the KKK would. Should you join your white arian nation who believes in God and spread your hatebreeding ways to our children? After all, maybe we can make the world 10 times worse so God will come sooner. Or maybe talk about Charlie Manson some more and learn of his brainwashing techniques, I heard Jim Jones was pretty good at that as well.

Or maybe you should try to find something constructive to do like reaching out to nonbelievers in Christ and help them find the Lord. Instead, you preach your trash to a bunch of noncatholics trying to instill your hate into impressionable minds. Find a Catholic forum and tell them how you feel, at least you are directing it towards the right group of people then instead of people who already agree with you. Truly I tell you, you have lost love in your heart.

This is not directed towards everyone. The guilty parties will try to defend their "godly" actions.

---

quote:

---

This is not directed towards everyone. The guilty parties will try to defend their "godly" actions.

---

quote:

---

Is Yahweh giving HIS Church a prophetic warning against catholicism through Peter?

2 Peter 2:1-3
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
(2) Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
(3) and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

---

quote:

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In the new and revised catachesim of the Catholic church, they have added that the Muslims are their "Brothers in the Faith" while still calling the Protestants their "erring Brothers in the Faith".

---

quote:

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The prophetic warning today is not just against the practices/teaching of the Catholic Church. But many denominations as well.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Chuck Schwab:
So do you people lashing out at Catholics believe that we should all don white hoods and robes and speak against Katholics, Koons, and Kikes under a burning cross at night?

You seem to embrace much of what the KKK would. Should you join your white arian nation who believes in God and spread your hatebreeding ways to our children? After all, maybe we can make the world 10 times worse so God will come sooner. Or maybe talk about Charlie Manson some more and learn of his brainwashing techniques, I heard Jim Jones was pretty good at that as well.

Or maybe you should try to find something constructive to do like reaching out to nonbelievers in Christ and help them find the Lord. Instead, you preach your trash to a bunch of noncatholics trying to instill your hate into impressionable minds. Find a Catholic forum and tell them how you feel, at least you are directing it towards the right group of people then instead of people who already agree with you. Truly I tell you, you have lost love in your heart.

This is not directed towards everyone. The guilty parties will try to defend their "godly" actions.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
.
I am sorry Chuck, if you find the truth painful.
betty

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quote:

---

I would like to apologize to anyone and everyone whom has come across this post I made. My anger is my flaws of humanly flesh. Part of me still feels you are attacking a group of people much like Hitler did the jews or any other reference where people singled out a religious group. These are my opinions which I am entitled. I do admit my failures and I have failed in showing the love that Jesus has taught us. Again, I apologize to you. But no matter how intelligent you may feel your are about "the truth", you should also realize you need to be a bit more humble about yourselves and your knowlede. God is the answer, he is the truth and the light. I wish you all the health and blessings the Lord can bestow on you.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by nan29:

quote:

---

Is Yahweh giving HIS Church a prophetic warning against catholicism through Peter?

2 Peter 2:1-3
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
(2) Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
(3) and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

---

I don't want to get in the middle of an argument here but when I read the first post that started this thread I can't help but think this is actually a warning against Muslims. Mohammed was a prophet who denied the Master. He said Jesus was just a prophet and that there was no resurrection. Talk about maligning the truth! There are many destructive heresies in the Quran. And as far as numerous, there are 1.3 billion Muslims and 2.0 billion Christians, however Islam is growing faster than Christianity and it is estimated in less than a hundred years, Muslims will outnumber Christians! A house divided among itself will not stand! Let's stick together as Christians and look to where the real evil is in the world!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Chuck Schwab:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
.
I am sorry Chuck, if you find the truth painful.
betty

---

Oh no, the truth isn't painful at all. I know that the truth is God is love. Why that isn't painful at all, it makes me feel great!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Chuck Schwab:
After all, aren't we all Christians?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chuck Schwab:
I'm sorry, I thought Christians were welcomed here. I was raised Catholic but disagree with the church and do not attend or worship in their church. I am in search of God and truth and I question why you give off to me in my opinion, a hatred towards people who believe in Jesus and God, just like you. But now the way you present yourself makes me begin to doubt christianity. And if you are making me doubt christianity, then you are not looking to save people and help people which you claim to do. If you say I am just weak and ignoring the truth, teach me, don't explode into versus from the bible. But I am wasting my time, you could care less about me and my search for God. Thanks for confusing me more.

I won't bother any of you again.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by David:
Its called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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quote:

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Originally posted by David:
Andy if you are looking for a Catholic message board you are in the wrong place.

This is a Christian message board and not a Catholic message board.

Accusing the Catholic church of apostasy is plain wrong

You do not have to agree with me as you can believe as you wish, but we do not condone teaching Catholic doctrine on this message board.

Period

If that is what you want to do I suggest you go to a Catholic message board.

Thank you,
David

---

I'm not looking for a Catholic message board - I am not a catholic, I'm an Anglican Christian. I am also NOT teaching catholic doctrine. If you re-read my posts you will find that I am arguing that the basic tenant in catholisim seems to me to be the same as in the Anglican church.

The Nicene Creed that caretaker posted is used in Catholic and Anglican church services and sets out the basic truths that the churches aspire to. I there something in the Nicene Creed that you don't agree with David?

Apostasy is defined by the OED as the formal reject of one's religion. I do not think that they have gone that far. I don't agree with their doctrine of praying to Mary or the Saints, of the immaculate conception or of the need for confession (and a whole bunch of other stuff) but they do see Jesus as the son of God, who died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

Will God, on the day of judgement say that they have been a 'good and faithful servant'? I can't say, but I do know if they truly ask for forgiveness and ask to be saved they will be, no matter how many hail mary's they've done, or whatever saints they have prayed to in the past. I don't think that the criminal on the Cross next to Jesus understood any theological precepts at all - he asked Jesus to forgive him and save him, and he was saved.

This is indeed a Christian message board, and part of it's function (and you could put me right on this, as it's your board) is discussion and debate. My central argument here is that to be called a Christian, one has to accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. I believe that the Catholic church does teach this (along with a whole load of other stuff about using Mary as an intercession which doesn't seem right to me) but I am prepared to have someone show me different, as I am not a Catholic and haven't been to a Catholic mass.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Ahar:
I'm not looking for a Catholic message board - I am not a catholic, I'm an Anglican Christian. I am also NOT teaching catholic doctrine. If you re-read my posts you will find that I am arguing that the basic tenant in catholisim seems to me to be the same as in the Anglican church.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
An Anglican is a "watered-down" Catholic, determining faith and practice by committee, but with the fervent desire for unity with the RCC.

http://ctlibrary.com/8033

Asked whether the Anglican document, which was described by the Church of England as "courteous yet robust," would harden differences with Roman Catholics, Bishop Hind said: "Fifty years ago it probably would have. Today there is a totally different climate. We can approach these issues with a fair degree of honesty."

The Eucharist: Sacrament of Unity stresses the central place of the Eucharist in the life of the church: "It unites Creation and Redemption, life and liturgy, porch and altar. It galvanizes Christians for witness and service in the world. … There is real empowering in the Eucharist for all who are brought into communion with Christ and his people here."

The document reiterates that the Church of England is a catholic and apostolic church, and points out that much of its theology of the Eucharist is the same as that of the Roman Catholic Church. This includes a belief in the real presence of Christ—although not in transubstantiation.

The report states: " … we do not believe that Eucharistic communion should be reserved for the end point of unity already achieved between separated churches. … Anglicans have come to accept that shared eucharistic communion [in various degrees] may be an appropriate anticipation of full visible unity."

The Eucharist: Sacrament of Unity is partly a teaching document for Anglicans and partly a response to One Bread One Body, issued in 1998 by the Roman Catholic bishops of Britain and Ireland which restated the Roman Catholic ban on Eucharistic sharing—ruling out the possibility of Roman Catholics receiving non-Catholic Eucharist, and of non-Catholic Christians, except in grave or life-threatening circumstances, receiving Roman Catholic communion. One Bread One Body invited responses from other churches.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ahar:
The Nicene Creed that caretaker posted is used in Catholic and Anglican church services and sets out the basic truths that the churches aspire to. I there something in the Nicene Creed that you don't agree with David?

Apostasy is defined by the OED as the formal reject of one's religion. I do not think that they have gone that far. I don't agree with their doctrine of praying to Mary or the Saints, of the immaculate conception or of the need for confession (and a whole bunch of other stuff) but they do see Jesus as the son of God, who died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Catholic trust is in their Church, not in Christ.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ahar:

Will God, on the day of judgement say that they have been a 'good and faithful servant'? I can't say, but I do know if they truly ask for forgiveness and ask to be saved they will be, no matter how many hail mary's they've done, or whatever saints they have prayed to in the past. I don't think that the criminal on the Cross next to Jesus understood any theological precepts at all - he asked Jesus to forgive him and save him, and he was saved.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Unlike Catholics the thief on the Cross placed his faith and trust in Christ alone. The Catholic places their faith and trust in the Roman Catholic Church.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ahar:

This is indeed a Christian message board, and part of it's function (and you could put me right on this, as it's your board) is discussion and debate. My central argument here is that to be called a Christian, one has to accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. I believe that the Catholic church does teach this (along with a whole load of other stuff about using Mary as an intercession which doesn't seem right to me) but I am prepared to have someone show me different, as I am not a Catholic and haven't been to a Catholic mass.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

An Anglican is a Catholic with a watered-down liberalized Catholic theology.An overwhelming desire by Anglicans to re-unite with the Roman Catholic Church has them enmeshed in compromise.

Jesus Christ is the one and only Saviour, and therefore our faith must be exclusively in Him alone. St Peter underlines this fundamental truth, saying: "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Sadly, Roman Catholic piety leads many Catholics to turn their eyes from Jesus towards Mary. They still "believe in Jesus", of course, yet their heart is not reassured. They apply to someone else. “St John Damascene had no hesitancy in addressing our Lady in these words: Pure and immaculate Queen, save me, and deliver me from eternal damnation. St Bonaventure called Mary the salvation of those who invoke her” (The Glories of Mary, St Alphonsus Liguori).

You have to choose between the advise of the Catholic saint, who tells you to invoke the name of Mary for salvation, and the inspired words uttered by the apostle Peter, who solemnly warns that Jesus is the only name given among us whereby we must be saved.

We will never compromise our faith for the sake of unity.

Main Entry: apos·ta·sy
Pronunciation: &-'päs-t&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand -- more at STAND
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION


Here is a list of Catholic practices and dates instigated by papal decree that
have ABSOLUTELY NO BIBLICAL FOUNDATION:

1. Prayers for the dead .....300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross .....300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .....375 A.D
4. Use of images in worship .....375 A D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration .....394 A.D.
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus .....431 AD.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) .....526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory I .....593 A.D.
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints .....600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics .....786 A.D.
11. Canonization of dead saints .....995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood .....1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary .....1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences .....1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III .....1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest .....1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) .....1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion .....1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma .....1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .....1439 A.D.
21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent.....1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible .....1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary .....1854 A.D.
24. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council .....1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) .....1950 A.D.
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church .....1965 A.D.

In Their Own Words At The Council of Trent the RCC renounces the true faith:

1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).

3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
.
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
•
Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
•
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).

• Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Anglican church

Key beliefs

* The Anglican church is a mixture of "Catholic" (High church - emphasis on the Eucharist and on ceremony) and "Protestant" (Low church - emphasis on the bible and preaching) beliefs.

* The authority comes equally from the bible, from God and from the leadership of the clergy.

* The central act of worship is the Eucharist or Lord's Supper.

* Only priests can perform the Eucharist.

* Priests can be married and can be men or women.

*The church of England is part of the government of the UK with 24 bishops in the house of Lords.

* There are seven sacraments or holy acts these are the Eucharist, Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Penance (confession of sins), Ordination, Anointing of the sick.

http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/gcsere/revision/xtianity/ch2/1/6.html

::::::::::::::::::::::::

It is all about knowing Jesus Christ. It is not about religion or traditions. If you don't trust and know Jesus Christ ONLY for your salvation, you are going the wrong.

It is not Jesus Christ plus something else.

It is Jesus Christ only.

That is why the theif on the cross was saved. He believed in and trust Jesus only and not his own works to save him.

Quote: My central argument here is that to be called a Christian, one has to accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.

It does not matter if you call yourself a Christian or not. It is about knowing and following Jesus Christ ONLY. Believing in Jesus Christ will not save you. You must be born-again. Satan believes in Jesus Christ and is not saved. On judgement day it is not a religion that will save you. It is not some work you have done that will save you. It is who you actually know, follow and trust that will save you and that person is Jesus Christ. Knowing about Him will not save you. Doing some religious ritual will not save you. If you know and love Jesus Christ you will know it as it will change your life. You don't do good because you have to, you do it because you love Jesus Christ and want to.

It has been well said that "religion" is man’s way of trying to deal with his guilt. Different religions have different ways of attempting to rid their adherents of sin and its consequences. They fast, pray, deny themselves legitimate pleasures, or chasten themselves, often to a point of inflicting pain. They do this because they have a concept of what they think God (or "the gods") is like, so they seek to establish their own righteousness, being "ignorant of God’s righteousness." The Good News of the Christian faith is that no one need suffer the pains of religious works. Christ’s blood can cleanse our conscience from the "dead works" of religion (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus took our punishment upon Himself, and He is the only One who can save us from sin and death. See Acts 4:12 and John 14:6.

Are you a good person?
http://fishthe.net/good-person1.html

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine15&item=1104090951


News sources report another growing trend. A recent study discovered that "a third of young evangelical Christians believe in living together before marriage" (The London Times, May 5, 2001). This finding shocked Protestant church leaders and revealed a thorny dilemma—"either they emphasize biblical teaching on sexual morality, which risks driving more young people away, or they compromise their traditional teaching, which may alienate the older generations" (Ibid). In contrast to the increasingly firm Catholic positions on moral and theological issues, "one Church of England report has already recommended that the phrase ‘living in sin’ should be abandoned" (Ibid). A study of evangelical young people revealed that many considered it acceptable to steal small items and said that it was sometimes necessary to lie. This lack of morality among professing Christians parallels the increasingly liberal teachings of their religious leaders.


Ironically, as mainline Protestant denominations liberalize their doctrines to accommodate popular ideas, their church attendance continues to fall! One British bishop described his church as "irrelevant, dull and… so committee-bound that it was hardly likely ever to inspire or convert anyone" (The London Times, December 22, 1998). There is growing concern that Anglican Church leaders can believe anything they want. Another article comments that secular, materialistic and ungodly trends in England are so apparent that "missionaries from South America and Africa are heading to Britain to save our souls in a reversal of traditional roles" (The Sunday Times, July 1, 2001).

The story of Protestant decline is the same in America and other countries. At a recent conference of the Presbyterian church, liberals’ attempts to ordain practicing homosexuals and question whether belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation (see John 14:6; Acts 4:12) sent shockwaves through a denomination long considered a bastion of conservative Christian theology. One delegate commented that "the homosexual and christological debates have diminished the church’s ability to minister" (2001, WorldNetDaily.com). Another observed: "This is the end of the church as we know it" (Ibid). Conservative members of mainline denominations have threatened to leave if fundamental teachings of the Bible are willfully discarded.

But what does all this mean? What is so significant about the Roman Catholic revival and Protestant decline? Simply this—Jesus told His disciples to watch for specific signs that would announce that His return was near (see Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). Religious deception figures prominently in those signs. The Apostle Paul describes two more events that will precede the return of Christ—a great falling away and the appearance of a false, but highly influential, religious leader on the world stage (2 Thessalonians 2:1–4). The phrase "falling away" comes from the Greek word apostasia which means "a deliberate abandonment of a former professed position" or a great rebellion against, or general rejection of, the truth of Scripture and the laws of God (see The Expositor’s Bible Commentary). This is exactly what we are seeing today in the world, as secular materialism replaces spirituality and liberalism undermines traditional moral teachings. This apostasy is also evident in the perverted teachings and compromised theology promoted by liberal theologians. These developments are described in numerous prophecies about the end of the age (see 1 Timothy 3; 4; 2 Peter 2:1–14).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The phrase "falling away" comes from the Greek word apostasia which means "a deliberate abandonment of a former professed position" or a great rebellion against, or general rejection of, the truth of Scripture and the laws of God (see The Expositor’s Bible Commentary).
 

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Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
Well, in a spare few minutes I've had a dig through some of the web links that you guys have posted and it has certainly expanded my knowledge of Catholic doctrine. I'm now not sure about my previous statement regarding the Catholic church regarding Jesus as the only path to salvation. Given that pronoucements from previous Pope's can't always be taken as a guide to current thinking (if I remember quite a few used to have mistresses and held orgies back in the middle ages) I'm going to do some wider reading - that is not to say I think I'm wrong, but I realise that my knowledge is inadequate to make a decision or to continue the discussion. I may be back in a future thread

On to Anglicanism Far be it for me to defend all the different areas of the Anglican communion - I suspect that in it's current form it won't last much longer and a lot of the 'liberal' bishops and other things that you have quoted won't call themselves Anglican very soon, having split off from the main Anglican communion.

I don't think that it is true to describe Anglicans as wanting to merge with the Catholic church or that it is watered down catholism. There is no praying to saints, no asking Mary for forgiveness or any of the other things that you quoted for the RCC. I've never heard anyone in the church say that they want to merge with the RCC. This is not to say that we don't co-operate on certain things though, for example the fund set up for the victims of the London terrorist bomb last year.

I fully agree with your assertion David, that salvation is by Jesus alone and this is what the Anglican church teaches. I've never asserted in my posts that belief in Jesus is enough or that there is anything else that will save you - truly repenting and truly asking for fogivness is what matters. The Anglican church teaches this - I'm sure that it does, as this is what they taught me.

The church services and communion part (Eucharist) within the Anglican church are quite structured and share some structure with the RCC (the Nicene creed etc) but the emphasis here is on worship. There is NO suggestion that salvation comes about from the particular rituals in the service, or that it is required for salvation. There is NO suggestion that the particular form of rituals are bibically inspired - these are the proceedures that the church has chosen to worship God.

The 7 points that David posted are taken from GCSE Religious Education - that is the curriculum that 14 year olds study in school and is very, very simplified. For example, the leadership of the church DO NOT believe that they have the same authority as God (as one may say that the Pope does). The authority that they have as church leaders comes from and is subservient to God. The leadership, as in ANY church lead the congregations in applying the teaching of the bible to modern life. The bible has no passages regarding the use of fertilised eggs in Stem Cell research - we look to our church leadership to help us understand how the teaching in the bible applies to this modern life issue.

The Anglican church does believe that communion is a very important ritual as it reminds us of the point of the ressurection. It is because it is important that only an ordained vicar can lead the congregation in it - it is NEVER taught that the reason is a biblical one.

The other sacrement that may cause confusion is the Penitence. This is the first part of communion and reminds us that we are sinners. As the Eucharist service continues, it takes us through the crucifixion and the resurrection, finishing with the forgivness of sins. The church does NOT teach that this ritual provides forgiveness, or that it is necessary for forgiveness. It is part of the church service as a way of reminding us of the message. Yes it is structured, but if you understand it you realise that the message is the same as in many other churches.

I encourage you to take a look at http://www.cofe.anglican.org/worship/downloads/pdf/mvcommunion154-335.pdf which holds the texts for the Eucharist services. By reading this you can get a better view of the teachings of the church. To be honest, sometimes the church comes out with some pretty eosoteric theology papers that I've no chance of understanding, but the Eucharist should be a good guide to Anglicanism
 

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Posted by nan29 (Member # 5761) on :
 
Everyone believes that their religion is the right religion. I am non-denominational; my religion is love which is what Jesus preached more than anything. I work in New York City. I had front row seats to the devastation that occurred on 9/11, the result of hate and intolerance and of people who think that they are right and everyone else is wrong and are willing to die and kill for their beliefs. I know people who lost loved ones and who huddled together to pray – people of different religions and denominations. It is not up to us to judge who is right and who is wrong. In the end, we all have to answer to God, we’re all sinners. Maybe God intended it to be like this - different religions to see if we can love in spite of our differences. I know Jehovah witnesses with a good heart; I know Catholics with a good heart; I know Pentecostals with a good heart – Jesus looks at the heart. Who’s to say these people are condemned because to others their practices are questionable? Maybe this is a test. We are not to judge, we are to love - only God judges. God doesn’t want anyone to perish, so if “real” Christians think they are the only ones saved, then that rules out 5.5 billion people on this earth. I don’t think that’s God’s plan.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
It is popular today to say that all roads lead to God. What does Jesus say about this?


Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Are to judge others?


Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
________________________________________
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.


There is no universal salvation. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Any Church that takes the truth of the Gospel and tries to add to it or take from the plan of salvation is a cult and we should stand against it.
betty
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Your type of love nan will love the sinner straight into hell and justifies false christs and those lost in the deception of the cults. This is not love.

God has said that we ARE TO JUDGE between what is true and what is false. Those who seek to justify falsehood do no service to the lost. Those who seek to justify many pathways to God do NOT know Christ and are teaching pure error contrary to the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus declares that HE is the way, the truth and the life, and NO man cometh to the Father but through Jesus.

Maybe it would open your eyes if you would open His Word, instead of buying into and preaching that equmenical pablum of destruction.

We are to judge:


Righteous judgement
2 Peter 2:
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


1 Cor. 5:
9: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Cor. 2:
9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Timothy 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Main Entry: doc•trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations


Main Entry: re•proof
Pronunciation: ri-'prüf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reprof, from Middle French reprove, from Old French, from reprover
: criticism for a fault : REBUKE

Main Entry: 1re•buke
Pronunciation: ri-'byük
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re•buked; re•buk•ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old North French rebuker
1 a : to criticize sharply : REPRIMAND b : to serve as a rebuke to
2 : to turn back or keep down : CHECK
synonym see REPROVE
- re•buk•er noun


Main Entry: cor•rec•tion
Pronunciation: k&-'rek-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the action or an instance of correcting : as a : AMENDMENT, RECTIFICATION b : REBUKE, PUNISHMENT c : a bringing into conformity with a standard d : NEUTRALIZATION, COUNTERACTION <correction of acidity>
2 : a decline in market price or business activity following and counteracting a rise
3 a : something substituted in place of what is wrong <marking corrections on the students' papers> b : a quantity applied by way of correcting (as for adjustment of an instrument)
4 : the treatment and rehabilitation of offenders through a program involving penal custody, parole, and probation; also : the administration of such treatment as a matter of public policy -- usually used in plural
- cor•rec•tion•al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective


Main Entry: righ•teous
Pronunciation: 'rI-ch&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: alter. of earlier rightuous, alteration of Middle English rightwise, rightwos, from Old English rihtwIs, from riht, noun, right + wIs wise
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2 a : morally right or justifiable <a righteous decision> b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality <righteous indignation>
3 slang : GENUINE, GOOD
synonym see MORAL
- righ•teous•ly adverb
- righ•teous•ness noun
 

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Posted by nan29 (Member # 5761) on :
 

quote:

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Those who seek to justify many pathways to God do NOT know Christ and are teaching pure error contrary to the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus declares that HE is the way, the truth and the life, and NO man cometh to the Father but through Jesus.

Maybe it would open your eyes if you would open His Word, instead of buying into and preaching that equmenical pablum of destruction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nan29:
if “real” Christians think they are the only ones saved, then that rules out 5.5 billion people on this earth. I don’t think that’s
God’s plan.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nan29:
God doesn’t want anyone to perish, so if “real” Christians think they are the only ones saved, then that rules out 5.5 billion people on this earth. I don’t think that’s God’s plan.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ahar:

quote:

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Originally posted by nan29:
God doesn’t want anyone to perish, so if “real” Christians think they are the only ones saved, then that rules out 5.5 billion people on this earth. I don’t think that’s God’s plan.

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Which begs the interesting question of what happens to those that have never had the chance to hear the Good News

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quote:

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Originally posted by David:
The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23).

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Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle: everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

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Indeed, and the debate centres around how God makes himself known, and what this actually means in practical terms. This is also why I said that I wouldn't go into it in this thread as I've gone far enough off topic already
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hi Nan: You are not alone in believing the Roman Catholic Church is "the church"; the world sees them as Christianity and it is a tragedy.

She has for 2000 years called herself "the church"; she has proclaimed that those outside of her are damned to hell.. ananthama.. acursed for she is the one true church of Jesus Christ.

This is a lie.

This is not to say that there are not people in the Roman Church whom GOD desires to save, but I believe that those are the ones that HE is calling out of her for she is apostate.

If you are to see the Roman Church for what she is you have to see how she began.

By 175 AD, apostasy was already at work in the Christian Church as the Apostles had warned it would be.

The church at Rome had begun to try and ussurp the authority of the other Bishops. This was strongly promoted by Iranaeus. In his espistles he declared the supremecy of the Bishops and it was he that first claimed apostolic succession to support his teaching that the Bishops were the head of the church and supreme over the presbytariate.

As early as the first century there was a movement toward the ehaltation and adoration of Mary. The church leaders naturally wanted to meet with her.. to talk with her...she was the mother of Jesus and you can read the writings of Ignatius and hear the unscriptural adoration of Mary had begun.

By the fourth century after Christ,there was tremendous division among the church and arianism had come to out of Egypt and to the forefront of apostasies in the church; also Rome was in trouble, it's conquests had caused it to grow too large too fast and while life itself in Rome was grand, the lieves of those conquered in the outer parts of the Empire were in lack and life was not grand... Rome was in decline. There was constant threat to the Emporer's throne from others among the ranks who thought they could do a better job. If Constantine could stop the persecutions of Christians, he could stop the division of the empires focus by eliminating one enemy without war.

The Edic of Milan was his tool in and he made Christianity legal is Rome... not only this but he himself by claiming Christianity made Christianity to be desrious..if you wanted to show your suport for the emporer, you became like him a Christian, and Christianity became the official relgion of the empire. The emporer of Rome became the head of the church of Rome. It was constantine that called and presided over the council at Nicea!

What is important to understand is that this is in and of itself AntiChrist... Jesus is the head of the church, and the scripture clearly tells us that it has been given to Jesus alone to be the ONLY one that will ever establish a Christian Empire in the earth.

But back to Constantine... under Constantine, the persecuted became the persecutors for when ROME went out to conquer they went flying the Christian flag. Christianity under Rome was no more about belief in Christ, but about opposition or lack there of toward the Roman Empire.

Constantine rewarded those who complied with material wealth and those who did not comply were rewarded with death.

Constantine's efforts to solidify Rome and return her to the days of Glory failed, but marriage of the Church to the world was one that would last to this day... Rome divided in 395 AD in spite of Constanine's efforts.

In the East the Emporer was the head of the Church; in the West in 445 AD the Emporer of the West officially named Pope LEO as the supreme ruler of the church, and it was LEO...not the emporer who went out to meet Atila the Hun and persuaded them not to attack Rome. Leo declared that whomever did not agree with the Roman Church on matters of Christian belief should be put to death.

In 494 AD, Leo's successor made the Pope of Rome Supreme over all Bishops. THis was never the way of the Apostles who appointed bishops in the local churches and set them as shepherds!!!

What I want you to see here is that what became was a Christian government... to this day the vatican is a city and a soverign government... the Pope its head.

That government is responsible for 1500 years of persecution of Jews and others who opposed it; it is responsible for the assimilation of all manners of paganism into the church; it is responsible for keeping the scriptures out of the hands of the common man for 1500 years; it is responsible for a host of dogma, tradition, and even doctrine that are completely contrary to the scripture.

It never was the "church" not the one that Christ was building!

Nan, are you aware that almost all of the men that participated in the reformation believed that the pope was the anitchrist?

The Roman church has attempted to keep us ignorant of its bloody and apostate history. Those today who know it and speak of it are accused of terrible things, but any society that denies its history is subject to repeat its history and that should be a warning to us.

Do you know that there are people in europe that are very much aware of the autracities of the Roman church through out history that will have nothing to hear of Christianity because if that is what Christianity is they want no part of it?

It is a sad thing the apostasy of Rome because it is Rome that has evenagelized much of the world and thus we find in Africa people who claim to be Christian, but are in bondage to all manner of sin, paganism and corruption... as Christianity is mixed with the pagan tribal religions.

In this country the Roman church sought to help the US government civilize the native Americans and they tore children from their families and shipped them off to boarding schools where they were taught Catholisim and stripped of their native language and beaten brutally if they did not comply. To this day in the part of the country where I live there are native americans that are in bondage to sin and to alchohol and mixing Christianity with tribal religion and practicing paganism and living lives that show none of the peace and Joy and power of holy spirit and yet they believe that they can live like the devil and go to heaven when they die because they believe that they are christians... and they have believed a lie spread by an organization that called themselves the church and never was the church.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ changes lives; it brings peace and joy and power in the holy ghost that is greater than any earthly circumstance. It frees us from the oppression of the devil and it frees us from bondage to sin that we who are born again do not have to be at war with our flesh and do not have to be lead along by the nose by sin.

But when it is not the Gospel of Christ that is preached people are not freed and yet they believe that they are saved.

If you think that it is difficult to witness Christ to someone who is npt saved try witnessing it to someone who is not and believes that they are, but has believed lie. The great falling away that we see today is a result of the preaching of a Gospel that cannnot save, cannot free, cannot bring peace and JOY and power in the Holy Ghost, cannot cause one to possess all things though they possess nothing.

There is no greater crime of hate that we can spread than that of spreading a Gospel that is not the Gospel of Christ.

The Roman Church has been spreading just such a Gospel for 2000 years, claiming to be the bride, claimign to be the ONE TRUE church and she never has been.

Rome is alive and well today in the Vatican City and she is engrossed in eccumenical efforts that will draw her into unity with Islam and with Apostate Protestantism and with all other religions of the world, and then out of that eccumenical union is coming THE ANTICHRIST.

Nan, I pray that you will not take my word for it but investigate for yourself... Rome is not the apostate church... Rome never was the church in the first place, she is man's creation not Christ's. She is steeped in the babylonian paganism... even look at what they call Mary... the Queen of Heaven! Do you know that that term is in the scripture? It refers to a pagan goddess and GOd was angry with the Israelites for worshiping her.

The Bible shows that Rome is the babylonian religion repackaged... look at Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's statute from his dream.

If you note every kingdom is swallowed up by the next, and then the scripture says when Christ returns, he crumbles them all... from Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon to the Medes and Persians to ALexander's Greece, and then Rome... Rome lives today as clay and iron that cannot cleave and out of Rome ...not the city... but the entity... it is a religious/governmental/political entity out of it will come the anitchrist and the attempted NWO.

It is important to see that the Great ***** Mystery Babylon has been many cities... that is why she is a Mystery.. she has been the Great City of Babylon, She has been Nineva; she has been Alexandria, She has been Rome... Where will she be in the Last day? Will she be Washington, Jerusalem, Babylon again? I dont know, but I have no doubt that Romanism that is called Catholicism will be right there in the middle of her as she trough a policy of eccumenism seeks to draw together Islam and other heathen religions such as Hinduism and budhism and apostate Christianity.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
While reading a tread on another board I came across this site: http://a1m.org/page.php?page=template1.php&pageid=45898de9c1800924a8120f622a8ebf4c

It is Very Important to understand how the RCC does not line up with Scripture and this site shows it. Here's the first paragraph (it's a long article that goes the various Declarations of Trent:

quote:

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Declarations of the Council of Trent Compared with the Authority of Scripture

Introduction

“Has the Roman Catholic Church changed its basic doctrinal position in this present ecumenical era? The answer is no, it has not. The Council of Trent was a Catholic council held from 1545-1563 in an attempt to destroy the progress of the Protestant Reformation. This council denied every Reformation doctrine, including Scripture alone and grace alone. Trent hurled 125 anathemas (eternal damnation) against Bible-believing Christians. These proclamations and anathemas were fleshed out in the murderous persecutions vented upon Bible-believing Christians by Rome, and the solemn fact is that the Council of Trent has never been annulled. The Vatican II Council of the mid-1960s referred to Trent dozens of times, quoted Trent's proclamations as authority, and reaffirmed Trent on every hand. The New Catholic Catechism (1994) cites Trent no less than 99 times. There is not the slightest hint that the proclamations of the Council of Trent have been abrogated by Rome. At the opening of the Second Vatican Council, Pope John XXIII stated, "I do accept entirely all that has been decided and declared at the Council of Trent." Every cardinal, bishop and priest who participated in the Vatican II Council signed a document affirming Trent.”

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quote:

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It was glorious that I could just go and be in the house of the LORD on an ordinary afternoon.

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1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Do you leave your home unlocked? During the week our Church is open every day because we have a Church school. But when the school is out it is locked. It is not acting responisable to leave the doors unlocked and allow people to walk away with everything. I have always wanted a piece of property where I could have a little chapel with nothing but a pew and a Bible for people to come in an prayer but I don't expect my Church to open their doors to thieves.
betty
 

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Posted by Mjcw (Member # 5902) on :
 
I cannot see how the quotations from the bible make any reference to Catholisicm or any other specific religion. All religions have people in them that do evil - my question is when we face our maker will he spend the time telling us we picked the "right" or "wrong" faith or will he judge us on our actions? Didn't he say, judge not or ye will be judged?

I think we will all have enough on our hands justifing the way we lived our life without telling god how bad or wrong others were.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Questions:

How important do you think it is that we keep our "Doctrine" (teachings) Pure (meaning Strictly Biblical)?

How important is it to "Rightly Divide The Word of God?"

The next thing is to TEST what Any denomination teaches (be it RCC, Luthern, Baptist, or whatever calls it's self "Christian"). If their teachings Do Not Line Up with Scripture... then there is a Problem
 

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Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mjcw:
I cannot see how the quotations from the bible make any reference to Catholisicm or any other specific religion. All religions have people in them that do evil - my question is when we face our maker will he spend the time telling us we picked the "right" or "wrong" faith or will he judge us on our actions? Didn't he say, judge not or ye will be judged?

I think we will all have enough on our hands justifing the way we lived our life without telling god how bad or wrong others were.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Forgivendaughter:
Ouch!

The Catholic Church does have practices I don't understand - - praying to Mary or saints.
But I see the thought process that they are not dead and you are asking them to pray for you. The Bible does say-- He is a GOD of the living and not the dead.

I will also say that I think that every church has faults. I know that a lot of churches, including several I've attended are locked up like Fort Knox during the week. I don't think that this how God wants a church to operate. I think a church, like the arms of Christ, should be open at all times.
A week or so ago, I was taking a walk and felt God wanted me to go into a Catholic Church I was passing. I had thoughts about 'Catholics' and their crazy practices, but did what I felt God telling me to do.

Well, I opened the door and just walked into the sanctuary. It was glorious that I could just go and be in the house of the LORD on an ordinary afternoon. I felt the presence of the LORD there with me. I felt God saying to focus on what the Catholic church is doing right and not what they are doing wrong. Their doors are always open. They are more observant of Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, Lent, etc than most protestant churches.

Another thing that I think Catholic churches are doing right, is sponsoring schools that teach children about GOD b/c public schools are teaching children so many things that go against Christianity.

There is SO much that we don't know. There is so much more to our GOD, than what is in the Bible. The Bible is a tool GOD gives us to find him - - - OUR GOD LIVES - - He is everything in the Bible and MORE, much, much more.

Can I just point out that 95% of Christians look at Sunday as Sabbath, but in reality SATURDAY is the Sabbath that God commanded us to keep holy. Do you keep this commandment?

In closing I just want to say Satan is our only enemy.
God is looking at our hearts - - Even if you appear to everyone around you to be doing the 'right' thing, if you are motivated by evil then you are sinning. I believe that the spirit in which you do things is more important than the actual actions.
I also know that God wants to save as many of his Children as possible.

I just pray that we will all honor God with our hearts and that from our hearts will live a righteous life. I pray that ALL THOSE who believe in JESUS will honor him with their righteous acts. I pray for truth to pour out on all those who believe in Jesus as our CHRIST. I pray this in the name of our LORD Jesus because I want his enemy, Satan to be defeated and all of his children to be saved b/c he has purchased us with his blood. Amen

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