quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Israel is doing the right thing. Israelis are practical people and they know that the Muslims' groups whether Hezbollah or Syria, or Iran want Israel destroyed completely.

It's self-defense. Israel will not ***** foot around, as it's a case of their survival.

Israel is doing the only practical thing. It's the right thing.

---

WhiteEagle: You sound EXACTLY like my dad, I almost thought he got the internet and posted this! LOL.

I agree with you 100%.
 

---

Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
Is Isreal doing the right thing?

Yes! The Muslims has always had it out with the Isreal. No other country on this earth have MORE enemies than Isreal. The Hezoballahs are just one of twenty facist group that would have Isreal anilated.

This is where I believe that the uniqueness of Isreal stands out. Personally speaking I would rather have the lion lay down with the lamb, but being pratical about it. The lion would rather devour LAMB.

There is no other country that came into existence over night, unless you think about Liberia. Liberia was a country whose main purpose was to allow fomer slaves a place of recognition and acceptance, Isreal if left alone would had been in existence for ten lifetimes and more. The ancient Egyptians would place the Jews back in bondage, Hitler would have every Jew killed, with his allies. Neo Nazis would kill the Jews. For the longest time the Roman Catholic Church would kill the Jews and some still would rather have Isreal killed.

Thank God! Isreal exist. I often wonder how would it be like to have been born in Isreal. Isreal (The Jews) has always remained alive in the hearts of the Jwish people by their culture and somewhat of the culture who circumspect it in various areas where they live today. The language Hebrew never died out because it was always the language of the Jews even in the Synagouges abroad in the world.
Isreal like the bible have been equally scorned and tried to wipe out.

There is a saying that Jewish people not living in Isreal say every year during Yom Kimpur and that is - " MAYBE THIS YEAR JERUSALEM WILL BE MINE"

THY WORD HAVE I HID IN MY HEART THAT I MAY NOT SIN AGAINST THEE.
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
I'll qualify and expand my statement a little. I think you have to seperate the principle of defending their citizens from a critical assessment of the acion that Israel is undertaking. The debate regarding the actions of Israel, certainly in the UK, has become very muddied recently - a critism of Israels actions does not imply a lack of support for the country or it's people. Look at the figures for the death toll - the number of Lebanese killed so far is at least 10 times the number of Israelies and at least half of these are civilians.

Israel's military has never given real regard to civilians in it's operations - their counter argument to accusations of civilian caualties has always been "they're killing our people, so we'll fight back, and if a few random innocent people are killed along the way then that's regretable". This is no way for a nation state to behave.

Israel is an institutionally racist state. Fully a fifth of it's citizens are Arabs but they are treated as second class citizens. Do they control a proportionate amount of the countries' wealth, political power, jobs etc ? They do not. You need look no further than the treatment of the setllers in Gaza compared to an Israeli Arab protest march in 1999. The march got a little rowdy and the police weighed in with batons, water cannon, rubber bullets and APCs - there were many injuries and I seem to recall a few deaths. When the Gaza settlers protested in a FAR more violent manner, the police and army went out of their way to ensure none of them were hurt. Gaza settlers throw stones, Police tackle them and take the stones away - Palestinian children throw stones, they get shots fired at them.

I understand Israel is surrounded by hostile states, their memory resounds with times such as the 1967 war and they cannot sit by while Hezbollah rain rockets down upon them while the Arab nations stay silent on the issue. But the nature of the response, not whether there should be a response, is the basis for my objection.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
ahar:

While in a perfect war it would be wonderful, if innocent people didn't get killed, we do not live in a perfect world.

Why don't you care to mention all the Palestine suicide bombers that have haunted Israel over the past decades. They even train their children it's a way to get into paradise.

Israel is dealing with an irrational enemy.
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
ahar:

While in a perfect war it would be wonderful, if innocent people didn't get killed, we do not live in a perfect world.

Why don't you care to mention all the Palestine suicide bombers that have haunted Israel over the past decades. They even train their children it's a way to get into paradise.

Israel is dealing with an irrational enemy.

---

quote:

---

Look at the figures for the death toll - the number of Lebanese killed so far is at least 10 times the number of Israelies and at least half of these are civilians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:


Israel has two choices - fight or be pushed into the sea. I say that that means they MUST fight. The lines have been drawn and Israel did not draw them. All Israel has ever asked is to remain peaceably in the land that was first given them by God, and later regiven them by Britain.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:
The other situation is the attacks by Hezbollah - while subjecting civilians areas to heavy bombing may be a short term tactical move, it is strategic suicide and just perpetuates the cycle of violence. Israel could claim the moral hgih ground given the constant attacks it is under and no one would deny its right to fight back - but it shoots itself in the foot every time with its own complete disregard for human life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
ahar:

While in a perfect war it would be wonderful, if innocent people didn't get killed, we do not live in a perfect world.

Why don't you care to mention all the Palestine suicide bombers that have haunted Israel over the past decades. They even train their children it's a way to get into paradise.

Israel is dealing with an irrational enemy.

---

This is exactly the issue that I mentioned - instead of debating their tactics the answer generally comes back "what about what they have done to use" as if that in some way absolves any debate and gives Israel carte blanche to do as it pleases.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I don't think it's Israel that has a complete disregard for human life. I see it's Hezbollah and other Muslim extremists groups that do not seem to respect human life.

How many times does the Muslim world need to state they want Israel completely wiped off the map? They deserve the broad brush getting painted on all Muslims. I rarely hear any so called tolerant and peaceful Muslim folk come forth to really condemn the extremists.

Unless the so called peaceful Muslims start condemming this volence themselves it will not stop. That means Muslims in America as well as the Middle East and elsewhere.

Otherwise they are silently condoning the actions of their extremist brothers and silently saying they agree with them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Andy if you are geeting your perspective from British journalism, then it is hardly fair and balanced towards Israel.

It is not Israel which is hiding weapons in Mosques.

It is not Israel which is firng multitudes of rockets, adjacent to civilian populations, and indiscriminantly into populations of innocent men, women, and children.

You will want to ignore history, because it supports Israel.


http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/001204.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
ahar:

Actually I feel that Israel is using a great deal of restraint.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The British Government is pretty Pro Israel?? Forgive me but that is such a joke. The British government's pro Israeli policies at this point are tied to nothing today except their alliance with the US, and it is too little too late!

---

quote:

---

It's probably true that a part of the support for Israel from the Brtish Government comes from our alliance with the US, but to call the fact that the government is pro israel a joke is to demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the past actions of this Labour government. Time and again the current labour administration has supported the actions of Israel and been given a large amount of political flak for this - the left wing (and pretty anti Israel) of the labour party is exasperated with the current leadership over this and they are continually complaining about it. The previous Conservative government also had a large number of very pro israel ministers.

---

quote:

---

Israel has a responsibility as a nation state to act in a measured way to achieve it's objectives with the minimum amount of cilivian deaths.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
I wonder if the BBC will carry this story:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108334

15 Year Old Girl Killed as Katyusha Strikes Pick Up
17:02 Jul 25, '06 / 29 Tammuz 5766
by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz

A 15-year-old girl in the Druze town of Meghar was killed Tuesday afternoon, when Hizbullah stepped up its rocket attacks on northern Israel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214046.stm

In the latest military action:

---

quote:

---

In your paragraph, it almost sounds as if you support the bombing of civilians as punishment for the actions of Hezbollah: "You want her pilots to identify ambulances from the air and not bomb civilian targets when the civilians have allowed a government to embrace terrorists that hide among women and children and in civillian areas and fire against Israel". Do the actions of Hezbollah sentence all of the people of Lebanon to death?

---

Hi Anyday: No I am not in support of bombing suvillians as punishment for the actions of Hezbellah.


I also do not believe that the bombing Israel is doing is for punishment, but for getting rid of their attackers, who happen to be hiding and attacking from civillian areas.

I understand that the innocent people will be bombed if they live in an area where a group like Hezbollah is hiding because it is too costly to the other side to forever remain sitting ducks at the mercy of an enemy that does not play by the same rules.

I so not believe that you can remove the local support that these groups in the middle east have. Even enemies will unite over a common enemy the same way a hostage will come to sympathize with the kidnapper. Israel is the enemy. Isreal is the enemy because they are Jews period. We do not understand this.

The nations that surround Israel do not believe that Israel has the right to EXIST. They do not believe that JEWS have the right to EXIST. The believe that it is their Duty to GOD to cause Israel to cease to exisit.

Even the people that hate Hezbollah find common enemy with them in Israel. Sunni and Sheite find common ground on the subject of Israel. This is not about borders and no amount of social good that Israel could ever do would make them to not be the enemy here. So a plan to take away the support of the common man for the terrorist cannot work. We should make no mistake about it.. this issue today with Lebanon is just one battle in a war of many battles. Lots of inocent life has been and will continue to be lost... but this is a war that is a war unto the death... The Bible tells us ultimately whose death... and whether we like it or not.. think that it fair or not... have hearts that bleed for the innocent or not... it is not Israel's death that we will eventually see.

We talk about war as if there were a human and moral way to have war. There is no human and moral way to have war. Innocent people die in war whether the war is beteen nations that think themselves civilized and their rules of engagement moral.. or whether between tribes where there are no hold barred and it is every man for himself. War is just not moral or humane period... none the less war and desloations are determined until the end..

This is not a war about boundries or land.. this is Jihad. It would behove us all to come to understand this.

Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined..


 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 

 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QUOTE]

We talk about war as if there were a human and moral way to have war. There is no human and moral way to have war. Innocent people die in war whether the war is beteen nations that think themselves civilized and their rules of engagement moral.. or whether between tribes where there are no hold barred and it is every man for himself. War is just not moral or humane period... none the less war and desloations are determined until the end..

This is not a war about boundries or land.. this is Jihad. It would behove us all to come to understand this.

---

quote:

---

I was interested - by critising Israel in the way that I do, does anyone feel I am not living up to my biblical duties to support Israel and Jewish people? If so, at what point do you draw the line between support for the state of Israel, and support for sinful activities in regards to the current conflict?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:
I was interested - by critising Israel in the way that I do, does anyone feel I am not living up to my biblical duties to support Israel and Jewish people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:
I was interested - by critising Israel in the way that I do, does anyone feel I am not living up to my biblical duties to support Israel and Jewish people?

---

:::::::::::::::

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Genesis 12:3 (NKJV)

That pretty much answers it.

If you don't want God's favor, then I would say talking bad about His people will do it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
But they have not, so you are worrying about something that has not happened.

You could say that God may say He really is not God. But that don't make it true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
This war is no different than Abraham when he heard the news that his own kin was captured. Got an army together from among his servants and went in and slew their enemy and retrieved Lot and the others. The reason why is more heavy and and confused, conflicted WE USE GUNS, TANKS, BOMBS just like the Islamic Fascists.

ISREAL IS PROTECTING THEIR OWN, NO MORE DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH.

Satan on the other hand seeks to whom he may devour. WELL I BELIEVE FASCISTS ISLAMICS ARE LED BY SATAN HIMSELF. They seek to destroy, to devour, to maim, and to control !!!!!!!!!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Ahar,

Israeli planes dropped leaflets for civilians of Lebanon to read asking them to evacuate to safer territory and gave them some time to do so. Some civilians paid attention to the leaflets and did evacuate. Others did not pay attention and chose to take the risk by staying there. At least they were forewarned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:

Members of Hezbollah and members of Hamas mix in with the civilian population and they carry out their cowardly evil acts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:

You say look at the images of those who've been killed in Lebanon by Israel. I say to you look at all the images of Israeli children, women, and men, who lost their lives when the evil suicide bombers carry out their evil deeds in buses, stores, restaurants, etc. Look at the images of over 218 U.S. Marines and some U.S, Navy personnel who were killed as they slept when their barracks were bombed by Hezbollah in Beruit.
Look at the images of all of the innocent people killed in New York on September 11, 2000 by the evil terrorists. Look at the images of the people killed in London when the evil bombers blew up places, look at all the images of all bombings carried out by the terrorists all around this world. Look at the images of the evil terrorists holding hostages and beheading them on camera. Look at the images of the terrorists killing their very own people in cold blood every day. Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida members want a holy war and they've been calling for a holy war for a very long time as I'm sure you are aware of that fact!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:

After the utterly horrific holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's when 6 million Jews, men, women, and children were murdered during Hitler's regime, the Jewish people later said "Never Again!"

Israel has every right to do what they are doing to stop Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorists organizations and I will always be in agreement with them.

Take a look at our own country and the horrific evil deeds of the terrorists in New York on Sept. 11, 2000. Our country went to war in Afghanistan and then went to war in Iraq to first liberate all the people of the two countries and then to fight the terrorists. The terrorists organizations have no respect and no regard for any human life - they can kill you without blinking an eye and they certainly have no remorse over all of the beheadings they've committed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:

Anyway I stand by all the Jewish people and Israel! They will prevail! They are within their rights!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
Andy have you read the entire old testament!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:
You stand by them no matter what they do? Are they exempt from sin? Do they have the right to do anything that they want?

---

quote:

---

Israel is a nation state, Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. They are different - Israel, as a nation state MUST abide by a different set of rules. If they do the same as the terrorists, how are they any different?

---

They are different because they are fighting for a land that is theirs given by GOD.

They are different because they are reacting to people trying to take their land.. not going out trying to conquer other's land.

They are different because ultimately when all is said and done, Christ himself is going to come and claim that land for the children of Abrahams and if you have not read there are going to be so many dead that Israel is going to employ full time people to bury the bodies for 7 months, and for 7 years they will burn the spoils and the weapons and the things left there in battle.

They are different because ultimately in the end when all is said and done, it is they that GOD plans to bring to repentence of sin and restoration and reconcilliation with HIM as a NATION, and it is the others that will be judged as a Nation for their having troddened upon Israel!

It does not matter whether we think this is fair or right or what ever..... it is ultimately what GOD is going to do!


 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

There were times, that Israel did not obey God's commands and kill everyone that God them to. They always lived to regret disobeying God. The truth is we may feel sorry for these children in Lebanon and should but they are born and raised on hate for the Jews. The are the enemy of the Jews.
betty
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

quote:

---

Israel is a nation state, Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. They are different - Israel, as a nation state MUST abide by a different set of rules. If they do the same as the terrorists, how are they any different?

---

They are different because they are fighting for a land that is theirs given by GOD.

They are different because they are reacting to people trying to take their land.. not going out trying to conquer other's land.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
[QUOTE]

Israel is not at fault for the death of civilians. While Lebanon allows a terrorist regime to operate within its' state and represent a large majority of its' government, it is responsible for the death of these "innocent" civilians. These so called "innocent" civilians you speak of also harbor members of this terrorist regime, as well as store munitions in their homes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Ahar, Israel helped to make certain that all who wanted to leave could do so. Did you not see the news of the lebonese people leaving, also all the other people of other countries leaving, our U.S. Marines were also there helping americans and others to leave taking them out to the waiting ships!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:

Rose - I ask you to look beyond what you might see on the Fox news network and search out reports from all news sources (British, US, Israeli, Arabic etc) as to what's happening on the ground. Dig deep into the weapons being used, the targets and tactics, and decide for yourself from this evidence whether it is going to far or not. Stop thinking in terms of black and white (Israel is right to defend itself or not) and look at the complexities of the situation and the choices available to all sides - only then can you make an informed decision. This is not about absolutes - to support or not support Israel - this is about the complexities of the situation and the response that the situation justifies.

---

quote:

---

Ah, so you don't need to differentiate between civilians and others if the land was given to you by God. That somehow makes you immune to sin?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Ahar, what I said to you in my last posting is the truth and it was reported on the national news and they showed several pictures. I did not say that all people were out! After all there were many thousands of people lined up waiting to be evacuated and taken out to the waiting ships to be taken to Cyprus. Furthermore everyone knows it takes a whole lot of time to complete a very large mass evacuation!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:

If at some point in time you were told you had to make a choice between Israel or Hezbollah and Hamas, which would be your choice?

I shall forever stand by all Israelis and Israel!
They are in the right no matter what you think!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:

You talk about Israel's weaponry. Take a good look at Hezbollah and Hamas weaponry! Take a good look at everything they do!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:

I give God all praise, love, glory, and thanks for everything throughout each day 24/7!

---

On that at least, we agree, but then I suppose that's not surprising as it's a Christian forum
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

---

If it was black and white as you suggest, you are then saying that Israel can do ANYTHING in defence of it's nation no matter whether the threat is large or small, up to and including turning Lebanon and half the middle east into a smoking ruin using it's nuclaer weapons NO MATTER what the threat.

---

quote:

---

YOU COME ACROSS TO ME as an ANTI-SEMETIC AND Hater of Isreal. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:

ANDY- Is your faith in Jesus based on your love for Him or is it based on the tradition of many familial generations in your geneology?

---

God will judge my faith Eduardo, not you.
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
Ahar,

I could tell you that Israel is dead wrong! Israel is using nasty weapons, and won’t ceasefire so that people can deliver supplies to Lebanon. And they hit highly populated areas.

Or I can say that Israel is mad right, yo! They are doing what they are supposed to do; they are taking a stand in this war. And Israel is the mark of criticism by the media, Lebanon sources, which have been wrongfully accusing them of misconduct. No nasty weapons were used, and the ceasefire was halted because of Hizbollah guerillas.

Two sides to every story.


Israel using chemical weapons: doctors
July 27, 2006 - 6:39AM

Lebanon is investigating reports from doctors that Israel has used weapons in its 15-day-old bombardment of southern Lebanon that have caused wounds they have never seen before.

"We are sending off samples tomorrow, but we have no confirmation yet that illegal weapons have been used," Health Minister Mohammed Khalife said.

The Israeli army said it had used only conventional weapons and ammunition in attacks aimed at Hizbollah guerrillas and nothing contravening international law.

Blackened bodies have been showing up at hospitals in southern Lebanon two weeks into the war between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas that has seen at least 418 people, mostly civilians, killed in Lebanon and at least 42 Israelis.

Killed by Israeli air raids, the Lebanese dead are charred in a way local doctors, who have lived through years of civil war and Israeli occupation, say they have not seen before.

Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds.

He has taken 24 samples from the bodies to test what killed them. He believes it is a chemical.

Cham said the bodies of some victims were "black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else."

"If you burnt someone with petrol their hair would burn and their skin would burn down to the bone. The Israelis are 100 per cent using chemical weapons."

Lebanese President Emile Lahoud has repeatedly accused Israel of using phosphorus bombs in its offensive.

Human Rights Watch, which has accused the Israeli army of using cluster bombs in populated areas of southern Lebanon, said it had not verified claims that Israel had used phosphorus.

"We are investigating but we haven't confirmed anything yet. We have seen phosphorus used before and we have seen it in the artillery stocks of the Israeli army in the north," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch.

"Phosphorus shells do have a legitimate use in illuminating the battlefield at night. The offensive use of phosphorus would be a violation of international conventions."

Television footage shows some bodies, such as those of 20 civilians killed when an Israeli missile hit the van in which they were fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, blackened in the way Cham describes. No one knows what killed them.

"We are seeing abnormal burns, different from wars we've seen in the past. The corpses of these victims are shrinking to half their normal size. You think it is the corpse of a child at first but it turns out to be a grown man," said Raed Salman Zeinedine, director of Tyre Government Hospital.

"We've never seen anything like it but what the causes are I don't want to speculate. We have no scientific answer."

The Israel Army said it did not target civilians at all.


"We use only weapons and ammunition which will best hit our targets and cause least collateral damage," said army spokesman Captain Jacob Dallal.

"It could be that a body is burned from fire or the force of an explosion, but between that and suggesting we do something illegal under international law are two different things."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Israel-using-chemical-weapons-doctors/2006/07/27/1153816285823.html


Israel says no to UN ceasefire
(Filed: 29/07/2006)

Israel has rejected a request by the United Nations for a three-day cease-fire in Lebanon to deliver food and medicine to civilians in the war zone.

Avi Pazner, a government spokesman, said Israel already had opened safe corridors across Lebanon for such shipments and but Hizbollah guerrillas were blocking them.

On Friday Jan Egeland, the UN humanitarian chief, called for a three-day truce between Israel and Hizbollah to evacuate trapped civilians and replenish supplies to areas cut off by the fighting.

He said thousands of children, elderly and disabled had been stranded after more than two weeks of fighting, and supplies were dwindling.
Meanwhile, relief aid, including 20,000 blankets, 1000 tarpaulins, medical kits and food, continued to arrive by air and sea.

Condoleezza Rice, US Secretary of State, is due to return to Israel today to discuss US President George W. Bush's call for multinational force to be dispatched to Lebanon to help its government regain control of the southern part of its country from the Hizbollah militia.

Ms Rice will meet with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in Jerusalem tonight to talk about the makeup of the multinational force and speeding up the delivery of humanitarian aid in the country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/29/utruce.xml


Anyone could be right, but for now I’ll side with Israel. Arabs hate Israelis, they got plenty reason to lie on them.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:

ANDY- Is your faith in Jesus based on your love for Him or is it based on the tradition of many familial generations in your geneology?

Ahar:
God will judge my faith Eduardo, not you.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Andy in your response in your profile:

Are you a Born-again Christian?: Define born again? I grew up going to church

With your Anglican/Catholic tradition one might have a decided problem understanding what it means to be born again.

The Roman Catholic church, for example, considers that "Baptism is ... the sacrament by which we are born again of water and the Holy Ghost." though the term is not frequently used by Catholics.
This is also the belief held by Eastern Christianity, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism, among other Catholic traditions.

The idea of being born again carries with it the theological idea that a Christian is a new creation, given a fresh start by the action of God, freed from a sinful past life and able to begin a new life in relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit. John Wesley and Christians associated with early Methodism referred to the born again experience as "the New Birth".

One is not born-again when one is baptised, especially as an infant.

One is not born again by warming a pew for many years.

One is born-again when one personally and specificly comes to Christ, confesses with their heart that they are a sinner and receives Jesus into their heart and their life.

Romans 10:
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 

---

Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
Andy-

WHen I say you appear to be anti-semetic or hater of Isreal it is based on the fact, not once have you conceded that by the authority of the Holy Bible which states those who bless Isreal will be bless. Not once have you said you as a Christian support Isreal in the light as the scriptures says.

As for your faith, that is between you and God, but as the bible says in James- faith without work is dead. Since dead, decaying life stinks, I am assuming James is saying that if your faith does not challenge you to do good, then it stinks.

Here is another question?

Do you believe Isreal and the Rabbinical authority believe they are in the new testament or do they still precieve to follow the old testament aka convenant.?

I trully believe Isreal could had done things different to spare innocent lives- It aches me, to know that my family in Isreal are causing pain to my friends in Lebanon who are Christians. When I hear of the killing of children, women it brings me to tears and to a prayerful heart that God would intervene immediately.

Because no man is above the law of God and that includes us stubborn and stiffnecked Jews, we as individuals will have to give an account of our obedience to His supreme Law. As Jesus put it- TO LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOUR BODY ,SOUL, AND SPIRIT AND TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. EVEN JESUS SAID, LOVE YOUR ENEMY WHO DESPITEFULLY ABUSE YOU!

Sometimes things become muzzled- IN THE PURSUIT of God that we tend to forget the compassion for all mankind regardless of who they are.

Andy, when you heard about what passed in London when bombs blew up and maimed and kill people, how did you intially react and later what did you do?
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Ahar,

As christians we must stand with Israel who is the apple of God's eye. I have always had a very special love for all Jewish people and for Israel and I've always wanted to visit Israel. A friend and neighbor of mine did get to go to Israel and she said she had a wonderful visit there.

All of your criticism of Israel will never change God's mind. You cannot change my mind either for I will always stand by the Jewish people and Israel. You fail to recognize or admit to the fact that Hezbollah began all of this - they are the bad guys in this conflict - not Israel. Israel will always have the right to defend Israelis and Israel the same as any other country defends their country. Hezbollah and Hamas need to be disarmed due to their being such evil terrorists who do such barbaric evil deeds. Yet you wish to blame Israel for everything. Your postings would make all terrorists very happy to read for that's exactly what they like for everyone to believe - that Israel is the bad guy. However Israel is in the right in defending themselves and their country. They would love to live in peace but does any of their enemies let them? The answer to that is no. Israel is within their rights and I stand by them!
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
Rose - I'm glad that you've looked at both sides. You've now made a decision based on research, rather than blind dogmatism, and are starting to see the complexity of anything that happens in the middle east.

Caretaker - my response on my profile was meant to be part joke (hence the smiley). I never describe myself to other people using the term 'born again' as I really don't like the term. It's far more associated in the UK with wishywashy happy-clappy Christians, rather than the serious nature of faith. I would identify myself with the text you posted:

"One is born-again when one personally and specificly comes to Christ, confesses with their heart that they are a sinner and receives Jesus into their heart and their life."

To be honest, I don't think you really need the phrase 'born again'. Either you are a Christian or you're not.

Eduardo - have you forgotton the message that you sent me thanking me for posting the link to the news item regarding the recognition of Jews in England? If I was anti-semitic, why would I post this.

You state: "I trully believe Isreal could had done things different to spare innocent lives ". Why do you not speak out about this? Messages do not have to be simple, sometimes they can be complex - we can say that it is right for Israel to defend itself while criticising some of its actions in doing this. You quote that 'those who bless Israel will be blessed' - God does not object to those who speak out against sin. I believe that in the currently military action, Israel has committed some sins (that is NOT to say that I think the entire operation is wrong) and I fell a duty to speak out about it.

Gramajo320 - have you even read any of my posts? Where have I blamed Israel for everything, where have I failed to recognise that Hezbollah are terrorists? You haven't bothered to try to look or understand what I've been saying - you simply saw that someone didn't 100% agree with your view of Israel's actions and jumped to make untrue and unfounded accusations.

Eduardo asked what I did when the London bombs exploded. My first reaction was to make sure that my soon-to-be wife and friends were safe - my wife uses the bus route where the bomb exploded and several friends use the underground stations and routes where the bombs exploded. It was pretty shocking as I had just been walking past the spot where the bus exploded an hour before. I didn't do much work that day or the day after, but life had to go on as I was getting married within the week and there were a lot of preparations to be made.
 

---

Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
I remember the day twin towers went down. I was working and then I remember one of my mothers sister worked in the towers. On the day they went down, she clearing out her space. She was retiring after 45 years of work. Some type exec secretary or something. She died in the towers along with many other people. THE DAY THAT CHANGED AMERICA CONCERNING TERRORIST.

ABOUT TWO WEEKS LATER WHEN A FLIGHT TOOK OFF FROM TEL AVIV TO GO TO THE UKRAINE, KIEV- MY FATHERS KIN WERE ON THE FLIGHT. I WAS TO SPONSOR MY COUNSIN HERE IN THE US SINCE I HAVE KEPT UP WITH SPEAKING YIDDISH. THE FLIGHT WAS SHOT DOWN OVER THE BLACK SEA. IT WASN'T TILL SIX MONTHS THAT THE RED CROSS WAS ABLE TO VERIFY THIS. IN ALL I HAD LOST TWO AUNTS AND TWO COUNSINS BECAUSE OF TERRORIST WHEN THE TOWERS FELL.

DO I HATE ISLAM?. NO, BUT I DO BELIEVE THE UNDERLINE AGENDA OF ISLAM IS TO BRING IN A PRESIDENT OR IN YOUR CASE A PRIME MINISTER AND SLOWLY AND SUBLIMELY CONVERT THE COUNTRIES TO FASCIST ISLAM AND REMAIN IN POWER.

I DO NOT KNOW IF YOU KNEW THAT 1 IN 3 PEOPLE IN FRANCE UNDER THE AGE OF 35 IS ISLAMIC? NOW ACCORDING TO A SURVEY OF INTERNATIONAL STUDIES IN EUROPE, STUDENTS PERFER ORIENTAL CONCEPT OF SELF CONCEPTUALISM BASED ON YOGA AND BUDDAHIST DOGA. IN SOME OF THE AREAS HERE IN THE USA AND LATIN AMERICA THE CONCEPT BAHAI HAS CAUGHT ON. IT IS BASED ON A MELTING OF WESTERN AND MIDDLE EASTERN PHOLOSPHY. SOMETHING LIKE THE DRUZ. THE CENTER OF BAHAI OF ALL PLACES IS IN ISREAL. GO FIGURE.

I HAVE NOT FORGOT ABOUT THE POST ON ISREAL SINCE YOU MENTION IT. OH AND BY THE WAY ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THINGS ARE GOING TO GET MUCH WORSE BEFORE THEY GET BETTER.

IF THE WORLD IN GENERAL HATES CHRISTIAN DOGMA AND ISLAMIC DOGMA, THEN COMBINING OF THE TWO BAHAI WILL BE THE TREND BEFORE THE END.

THERE IS A FOLKLORE SAYING IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AMONGST THE JEWS. HE WHO RULES BABYLON, WILL RULE THE WORLD BEFORE THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD.
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:

I DO NOT KNOW IF YOU KNEW THAT 1 IN 3 PEOPLE IN FRANCE UNDER THE AGE OF 35 IS ISLAMIC? NOW ACCORDING TO A SURVEY OF INTERNATIONAL STUDIES IN EUROPE, STUDENTS PERFER ORIENTAL CONCEPT OF SELF CONCEPTUALISM BASED ON YOGA AND BUDDAHIST DOGA. IN SOME OF THE AREAS HERE IN THE USA AND LATIN AMERICA THE CONCEPT BAHAI HAS CAUGHT ON. IT IS BASED ON A MELTING OF WESTERN AND MIDDLE EASTERN PHOLOSPHY. SOMETHING LIKE THE DRUZ. THE CENTER OF BAHAI OF ALL PLACES IS IN ISREAL. GO FIGURE.

---

That seems pretty high for France, especially as the census in France doesn't collect any information on religion. The only figure I could find in the couple of minutes of googling is approx 5 million Muslims in France out of a population of 60 million (less than 10%).

You're probably right in students preferring eastern religions. I think that we have to recognise our part in causing this - one of the key ways that we can bring people to christianity is to provide a good example.
 

---

Posted by BrazilianMommy (Member # 4787) on :
 
Comment about the comment just above mine:

Christianity seems to be the only Eastern religion that did not caught up in the Eastern world. So much that many people thing it is a Western thing.

Sorry my English, it is 12:42am here in Seattle.
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
I thought that as I have spent a lot of time criticising Israel's actions I should come back and say when I think they are doing something right. After the tradgedy at Qana, Israel have stopped the bombardment of the towns and cities (including Beruit) further away from the south of the country. I think this is a great step in relieving the suffering of the Lebanese civilians. Israel is also sending more ground troops in - I think that this is also a good thing as artillery shells, bombs and missiles are less descriminating than a soldier on the ground.

PS The link below is an editorial from today's The Times by David Aaronovitch - generally a good man for a balanced view:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22369-2293538,00.html
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Golden Report

Why we Jews are concerned about this coming Wednesday.
Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2006
- written by jerry golden Printer-friendly version
E-mail to a Friend

Click to Read Reviews & Rate this Article



Every year on the 9th of AV (this year August 3rd) the Jews of Israel hold their breath hoping that nothing bad will happen. The 1st Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar on the 9th of AV, 586 BCE (BC); 2nd Temple was burnt down by the Romans under Titus on the same date in 70 CE (AD).

Many disasters have happened to the Jewish people on this date, since the fall of the 2nd Temple Tish’ah be-Av has been the date of terrible persecutions to the Jewish people. The Romans capture of Bar Kokhiba’s last stronghold (135 CE). On the same date the following year a pagan shrine was erected on the Temple Mount. The exile of the Jews from medieval England 1290 and from Spain on the same date in 1492 and the slaughter of Jews during the Holocaust (Sho’ah) just to mention a few.

The war we are now faced with here in Israel and Lebanon is at a very important phase in this war and many now consider this to be the beginning of the 3rd World War. If Israel is somehow forced to concede giving Hizbullah a perceived victory it will mean terrible things for the US and the world in general. What I find so amazing is how the UN and the EU continue to blame Israel for everything, never mentioning the terror of over 1700 rockets that has been fired into Israel, causing many deaths and injuries. Or the fact that Hizbullah is a terrorist organization that has taken over Lebanon. It is way past time that we try to understand why the UN and the EU never blame Islamic Arab (Terrorist) organizations, and the answer can be summed up in one world "OIL". No one wants to pay $20 a gallon for gas. Little Israel has no oil, in fact we have a very small piece of land to grow things on, and most of it was once considered worthless, but just as God has prophesied the Desert has bloomed.

Today we hear Hizbullah shouting "death to America" and if you think they are just shouting that for the fun of it, you have another shocking revelation coming right at you. And if Rice or Bush is forced somehow to join the cry for a premature cease-fire before we are able to destroy or at least seriously damage the military capabilities of Hizbullah. You will see millions in the Islamic Arab world join the cry "death to America" and Hizbullah will recruit them by the hundreds of thousands into their ranks.

In 1981 the world condemned Israel for destroying the Iraqi nuclear reactor, but today we are thanked for doing it. Once again it’s Israel that is on the front line against the enemy that wants to take over the world, but all we hear is condemnation from those we are actually saving. The rest of the world has a choice, to allow Israel to totally destroy Hizbullah here and now or fight them later on your own front door.

I was an IDF soldier in the 1982 war when we went after the PLO for shooting these same deadly Katyushas rockets at us. We had Arafat backed up to the sea in west Beirut and ready to finish him and his group of terrorist off. But their rescuers came for them, it was the US 6th fleet. The US picked them all up at the docks in Beirut and took them to Tunis, they licked their wounds and today we are still fighting them because we were not allowed to finish the job. We don’t need that to happen again, and if anyone believes a multinational force will stop Hizbullah and all the other Islamic terrorists groups to become rational civilized folks, you have another thought coming. This is a spiritual war; good against evil and if I need to tell anyone who the good guys are I am wasting my time writing this article. This is a battle not only for Israel’s survival but quiet possibly for yours as well.

Daily I come in contact with Moslems and they all have the same detached look in their eyes, they have been completely taken over with the evil of Islam. They can only think of one thing to kill the Infidels (you and me). I am asked several times every week if I am frightened or if I plan to leave, the answer to both is NO, this is where God has placed us and this is where we will stay until the end, when or however that may occur. I know that God has called us to this Ministry and we will continue with ours eyes on Him and no other. Believing the Ruach Ha Koddesh to lead and guide us in the way we should and will go and that many Jewish lives will be saved. There is nothing the Devil would like more than to see you and others back away out of fear or wrong decisions. Knowing that this is a Body Ministry and everyone he can convince to turn away with their financial help is damage to what God has called us to accomplish in His Name. I have two prayers concerning this possibility, I pray daily that God will bless those who reach out to bless Israel be it this Ministry or any other in Israel. I pray that for every one the Devil is able to steal from the hands of God that a hundred more will take his or her place.

We are very close to moving this part of the ministry out in a very powerful way, and there has never been a time when your support is more important than today. If you will pray over this I know God will speak to you, just sit everything aside clear your mind of your daily problems and ask God to speak to you in your quiet time with Him.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, pray for our son Joel and all the IDF soldiers. Pray for this Ministry and your part in it. Shalom, jerry golden
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
Interesting first bit about what's happened on that particular date, spolied by the usual propaganda about the EU hating Israel and supporting terrorists - he obviously hasn't bothered to read all of Jan Egerland's comments.

Anyway... I think the author missed, given that the author was around in 1982, the fact that one of the large influences changing Israel's operations in Lebanon in 1983 was the tradegdy in Qana, with history repeating itself this week in Qana again. Quite ironic really, in the context of the date mentioned in the beginning of the article.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
The Qana?

I am finding articles now where the IDF says the building collapsed 12 hours after their airstrike, and that building wasn't even targeted.

What brought it down? Did Hezbollah blow up their own building to besmirch Israel? Beginning to look very fishy to me.
 

---

Posted by freddy05 (Member # 5854) on :
 
Ahar seems to have made this point 8 times already... but I do have a hard time reading the message of Jesus, and imagining him walking through the destruction in Lebanon with approval of what´s happening.

Agree 100% with the idea that one can support Israel´s right to self defense, with giving them a "blank check" to do whatever they want.

On these boards, I sense more emotion on this issue from people getting excited about the rapture as a result of this fighting, than feeling emotion for children who suffer, die, lose mothers, families split, and as a minor footnote, property distruction. And we haven´t even started on displaced families... you know how mad and upset some people get when their company transfers them across the country? Imagine having your home destroyed, no government that is able to help you, no insurance, and simply no choice.

Everyone on this board (me included) is completely spoiled and is completely out of touch with what real people are experiencing at this moment in Lebanon and Israel. And for any of us to make a simple black and white judgement in this complex issue is pure ignorance.

In the bible, Israel did many things that were wrong in the eyes of God...
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
http://directory.kol-israel.com/asites/?

After several hours of intense fighting in and around a hospital in the eastern Lebanon town of Baalbek, IDF commando forces on Wednesday morning took a number of Hizbullah officials captive.

Reportedly, an IAF helicopter dropped special forces soldiers at the hospital late Tuesday night. Heavy shooting with Hizbullah operatives on the premises ensued.

After inspecting the identification of everyone in the hospital, the IDF soldiers proceeded to arrest several people described in a CNN report as Hizbullah officials, who were later transported back into Israel. The officials names and positions in the organization were not revealed.

No IDF soldiers were wounded in the operation, an army spokesperson told The Jerusalem Post.

Earlier Wednesday morning, Hizbullah spokesman Hussein Rahal said, "A group of Israeli commandos was brought to the hospital by a helicopter. They entered the hospital and are trapped inside as our fighters opened fire on them and fierce fighting is still raging."

In a statement released Wednesday, the IDF confirmed that Hizbullah operatives had been captured and that others had been killed. This is the first confirmation by the IDF of operations so deep inside the Bekaa Valley, a known Hizbullah stronghold.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

An earlier report told that Hizbullah had set-up headquarters in the hospital. They chose to enter and capture rather than bomb and destroy the hospital. It says a great deal.

Packs of rabid wolves must not be allowed to run wild near the homestead. The threat must be eliminated. Every time Israel backs down and makes concessions they are brutally attacked.
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

An earlier report told that Hizbullah had set-up headquarters in the hospital. They chose to enter and capture rather than bomb and destroy the hospital. It says a great deal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kindgo:
The Qana?

I am finding articles now where the IDF says the building collapsed 12 hours after their airstrike, and that building wasn't even targeted.

What brought it down? Did Hezbollah blow up their own building to besmirch Israel? Beginning to look very fishy to me.

---

Can you post links to the IDF statements on this?
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
http://directory.kol-israel.com/asites/?

At a press conference on Sunday night, Air Force Chief of Staff Brig.-Gen. Amir Eshel said the building was struck by IAF missiles a little after midnight, but only collapsed seven hours later, at about 7 a.m.

Eshel said he could not explain what caused the structure to collapse so many hours after it was hit, and speculated, while stressing that he had no conclusive evidence, about whether Hizbullah had played a role in what had transpired, perhaps by firing on the building itself.

Another possibility that has been raised is that the building sustained damage from the original strike, but collapsed only later from structural damage or the impact of further IAF strikes nearby. Alternatively, the building may have contained Hizbullah weaponry that detonated after the strike.

MK Benny Elon (National Union) suggested Tuesday that Hizbullah may have played a role in the building's collapse in an attempt to prevent an international force from entering Lebanon and to place blame on Israel.

"In general, Hizbullah prevents citizens from moving from places that the IDF is attacking. This time it was more," said Elon. "It wasn't just prohibiting citizens from leaving this time, it was bringing refugees that aren't residents of Kafr Kana to areas that they know are going to be attacked. And to be sure it's attacked, Hizbullah fires from the building next door in order to create the crisis and in order to create the pictures."

According to Elon, Hizbullah took such action in an attempt to recreate the situation at Kafr Kana in 1996, which resulted in a withdrawal of Israeli troops from Lebanon.

"What they wanted to do was 'deja vu.' Last time, Kafr Kana was the end of the conflict... and this time they expected that the results would be the same: cease-fire," said Elon. "They needed the cease fire immediately because of the results of the war so far and their fear that UN Resolution 1559 can be enforced and fulfilled by the international force."

According to Elon, the IDF had "sources and information which were sure that civilians had left the area after warning pamphlets were dropped," but the information turned out to be mistaken.

According to one of the Web sites raising questions about the affair, Israel Insider, "the accumulating evidence suggests another explanation for what happened at Kana. The scenario would be a setup in which the time between the initial bombing near the building and morning reports of its collapse would have been used to 'plant' bodies killed in previous fighting... place them in the basement, and then engineer a 'controlled demolition' to fake another Israeli attack.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://directory.kol-israel.com/asites/?

5. Preview (Abstract/Citation) Full Text (No Photos) 57 killed after IAF strike on Kafr Kana. Israel adamant that fight goes on * Air force asks why building only collapsed 7 hours after it was hit * Village was source of Katyusha fire
YAAKOV KATZ, AP contributed to the report.; Jerusalem Post; Jul 31, 2006; pg. 01;

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://directory.kol-israel.com/asites/?


Lebanese report: Hezbollah planted disabled children in basement to die
By Israel Insider staff and partners August 1, 2006

A French language Lebanese publication, citing an unnamed source in Hezbollah, has claimed that the organization placed a rocket launcher on the roof of the notorious building in Qana to provoke an Israeli attack and brought invalid children inside to serve as victims and blacken Israel's name.

The Lebanese magazine LIBANOSCOPIE, associated with Christian elements which support the anti-Syrian movement called the "March 14 Forces," report that Hizbullah masterminded a plan that would result in the killing of innocents in Qana, in an attempt to foil Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's "Seven Points Plan" calling for deployment of the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon and the disarming of Hizbullah. The magazine reported:



Meanwhile, the Lebanese Red Cross reported on Monday that only 28 bodies, 19 of them children, were removed from the rubble. The count is half that of the 50-60 bodies still being reported by news agencies, quoting Lebanese security officials.

"We have it from a credible source that Hezbollah, alarmed by Siniora's plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations.... Hezbollah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the diplomatic initiative," the site stated.

The site's editors claimed that Hezbollah staged the event because of Qana's symbolic significance: "They used Qana because the village had already turned into a symbol for massacring innocent civilians, and so they set up 'Qana 2'." The incident has indeed been dubbed "The second Qana massacre" by the Arab media.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Staged photos
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Thank you Drew..
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Thank you Drew.. [Kiss]

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

++++++++++++++++++++++++

God bless you Sis;

Psalm 83:
1: Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2: For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3: They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4: They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5: For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6: The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7: Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8: Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9: Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10: Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11: Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12: Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.
13: O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.
14: As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
15: So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
16: Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.
17: Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
If it is true, Hezbollah can add that to their already long list of nappaling crimes. However, the first casualty of war is usally the truth, and one man's truth is another's propaganda.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
A List Of Facts:

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey at ''the edge'' - at the edge of the Temple mount.

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php


More Facts:

For those of us who believe that the "Israeli Occupation" has been bad for the Palestinian people, these facts may change your perception. The "occupation" seems to have brought nothing but good to the Palestinians - we can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!


1. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 42 to 44. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 44 to 63.

2. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 45 to 46. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 46 to 67.

3. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 200 per thousand to 170 per thousand. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 170 per thousand to 60 per thousand.

4. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian cruse death rate decreased from 21 per thousand to 19 per thousand. During next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 19 per thousand to 6 per thousand.

5. Before 1967, when Israel's rule began, only 113 hospitals had been built in the territories. By the time of 1989 Israel had helped establish more than three times that number to 387.

6. Before 1967 only 23 Mother & Child Centers had been established. After 1989 about six times as many could be found. (135)

7. Malaria, which had existed in the territories before 1967 was finally eliminated during the Israeli rule.

8. Israel also more than tripled the number of Palestinian teachers and boosted the Palestinian educational system by establishing a number of universities. Among those universities were the College of Scientists (Abu Dis) - est. 1982, the College of Social Welfare (El Bira) - est. 1979, the College of Religion (Beit Hanina) - est. 1978 and the Islamic College in Hebron- est.1971.

9. This was not the only effect Israeli rule had on the Palestinian education system and the Palestinian people. Before 1967 the percentage of illiterates on average had been 27.8% among men and among women even higher at 65.1%. By 1983 Israel had helped reduce illiteracy to only 13.5% among men and 38.9% among women

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts2.php


What Does The Koran Say?

People assume that the Koran (Q'aran - Muslim holy scriptures) has anti-Israel passages. While there is no doubt some level of anti-Jewish sentiment in the Koran, there are many passages that are actually in support of a Jewish state of Israel! The following are eleven passages showing the support for a Jewish state in the Muslim holy scriptures.


Sura 2:190

A case could even be made that Israel's victory over the Arabs in the 1948 war was a judgement by Allah against the Arabs for their apostasy in opposing the Zionists. This would be their just reward for transgressing Sura 2:190, which says, "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities."

Sura 5:21

Moses is quoted as telling the Jews to "enter into the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you". While Mohammed later condemns the Jews for their sins and their refusal to accept his message, he never says that, as punishment, Allah has revoked our title to the Holy Land. Therefore the title still stands, and Muslim anti-Zionists are apostates.

Sura 9:5

“Then when the Sacred Months have passed, kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and observe the Islamic lifestyle, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.” - Does this sound like a peaceful religion to you?

Sura 16:126

"If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted." Yet Ariel Sharon's nonviolent, if provocative, visit to the Temple Mount was met with rioting,
including the use of firebombs and AK-47's.


Sura 17:4

"And We [Allah] gave (clear) warning to the children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!" The succeeding verses tell us that the punishment referred to was banishment from the land. But "twice" means twice, not three times; hence the Jews, having been banished from the land once by the Babylonians and a second time by Rome, will never again be banished from the land. According to the Qur'an, Israel is an eternal nation.

Moreover, "twice would they do mischief on the earth" means twice, not three times; hence the Jews will never again do mischief on the earth. In particular, the Jews cannot bear moral responsibility for the Palestinian refugee problem.

Sura 17:7

The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem.


Sura 17:104

The Jews' return from 19 centuries of exile is actually the fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. Sura 17:104 says that 'And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."'


Sura 60:9

Moreover, Sura 60:9 forbids aiding the enemies of the Muslim people. Contrast this with the Palestinians' continued support of Saddam Hussein, whose hands are red with the blood of Iranian, Kurdish, and Kuwaiti Muslims.


Sura 83:1

"Woe to those that deal in fraud"; yet Yasir Arafat reneged on his promise to guard Joseph's Tomb in Nablus after the Israeli troops withdrew.


http://www.middleeastfacts.com/koran.php


Thought this would be good for everyone who wants to know the history of Israel from 1850 to the present. Good web site with factual information:

http://www.eretzyisroel
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kindgo:
A List Of Facts:

---

I would probably call it 'a list of points carefully selected to support a single point of view' and the website an 'argument to a particular view drawing points from history'. Whether or not it represents your point of view, you can't say it's comprehensive or impartial.

I certainly wouldn't describe the occupation of Gaza or the West Bank as being beneficial overall to either the Palestinians or Israelis.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Kana Massacre a Fake

* Sometime after dawn a call went out to journalists and rescue workers to come to the scene. Though Hizbullah has been claiming that civilians could not freely flee the scene due to Israeli destruction of bridges and roads, the journalists and rescue teams from nearby Tyre had no problem getting there.

* Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted.

* There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted, concluding that the victims appeared to have died while they were sleeping - despite the thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from one opening in the collapsed structure, and journalists were not allowed near it.

* Rescue workers carrying the victims on stretchers occasionally flipped up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead. But, Koret noted, the ashen-gray faces of the victims gave cause to think that the bodies looked like they had been dead for days.

* Photos of the rescue operation transmitted all over the world are "extremely suspicious," Spencer writes, citing work by EU Referendum showing numerous anomalies in the photos. "Most notably," he writes, "the dating of the various photos suggests that the same bodies were paraded before reporters on different occasions, each time as if they had just been pulled from the rubble. [In addition], some workers are wearing different gear in different photos, yet clearly carrying the same corpse."

* The Christian Lebanese (French-language) website LIBANOSCOPIE has charged that Hizbullah staged the entire incident in order to stimulate calls for a ceasefire, thereby staving off its destruction by Israel and Lebanese plans to rid themselves of this terrorist plague.

Spencer concludes, "Americans and Westerners are not used to dealing with carefully orchestrated and large-scale deception of this kind. It is time that it be recognized as a weapon of warfare, and an extremely potent one at that."
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
Interesting that the IDF offical investigation couldn't come to a firm conclusion to this. My knowledge of Israeli newspapers and media is not very good, so I don't know where Israeli National News fits - is it the equivalent of the National Inquirer, Washington Post, New York Times or Wall Street journal?

I usually read the Jerusalem Post as it's a pretty widespread and famous paper - they don't seem to go very much on this theory
(http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525796295&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull).

It would not surprise me if Hezbollah had some hand in this but I would be surprised if they had deliberately directly murdered their own people (as in herding them into a building and then blowing it up) as I don't think they have done that before - putting people deliberately in harms way sounds much more like what they would do.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Evidence Mounts that Kana "Massacre" Was a Fake

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
The world awoke this Sunday to the news that an Israeli airstrike had killed 57 Lebanese civilians, leading Israel to stop airstrikes for 2 days - but evidence shows the "massacre" was just a fraud.

The supposed massacre caused a major turnabout in world diplomacy. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice suddenly canceled her plans to fly to Beirut, saying "my work towards a ceasefire is really here [in Jerusalem] today." The implication was clearly that the onus was now upon Israel. French President Jacques Chirac condemned Israel's "unjustified action which demonstrates more than ever the need for an immediate ceasefire," Jordan's King Abdullah called it an "ugly crime," and other world leaders echoed these sentiments.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=109072


Lebanese hospital: Number of casualties from Qana strike is 28, not 52 (Israel Radio)


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/ShTickers.html


Stage-Managed Massacre
By Robert Spencer
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 2, 2006

“The Israeli air strike on the Lebanese village of Qana early Sunday morning did more than kill 57 civilians,” says Jefferson Morley in the Washington Post. “According to a wide range of commentary in the international media, it inflamed already boiling public opinion in the Arab world against Israel, undermined what little support the United States has among the Lebanese people, and illuminated the continuing inability of Israel and the United States to achieve their goal of decisively weakening Hezbollah.”

The Hindustan Times editorialized that “with Qana, one senses that the Israelis’ definition of ‘collateral damage’ has started to bear a striking resemblance to that of the very terrorist organisation that they are keen to destroy.” At a rally outside the State Department building protesting the Qana “massacre” on Monday, Leftist protestors chanted, “Hey, Rice! What do you say? How many kids have you killed today?”; “Israel Out of Lebanon! Ceasefire, Now”; and “Shame! Shame! Shame, on you!” An Australian Muslim in Qana told Australia’s Herald Sun: “I would say a few hundred have died. This isn’t war, it’s genocide.”

Except for one little detail: it is increasingly clear that the Qana “massacre” was a stage-managed Hizballah production, designed precisely to enflame international sentiment against Israel and compel the Israelis to accept a ceasefire that would enable the jihad terrorist group to gain some time to recover from the Israeli attacks.

more (lists principle evidence) ......... http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=23655
 

---

Posted by freddy05 (Member # 5854) on :
 
From what I´m reading from major well established news sources is that the IDF is saying Kana happened as a result of an intelligence failure. I guess I don´t really care to argue this on much. Israel is in the position of power in the conflict economically and militarily. Its no surprise to me that a far weaker opponent would use "unconventional tactics". Heavily outnumbered groups usually do. Take a look at the history of guerillia warfare in Latin America for example.

And as disgusted as I am about reading about suicide bombings, car bombings, rocket attacks, and manipulating civilians to make the stronger opponent look bad... I still won´t support a reaction that ends up killing hundreds and potentially thousands more and causes more suffering and ruined lives than 9/11 ever did. I guess I am more pragmatic than vengeful...

Not everything Israel does is from God. So don´t support Israel in all situations just because you want to be "On God´s side". If Israel is sinning and you support their sin... then guess "who´s side" you are probably supporting.

And from what I know about Jesus, I am assuming he´s spending more time grieving over the suffering of the people in Lebonon than he is rooting Israel on to victory and rationalizing their behavior.
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 



Israel is doing the right thing!!!

Even if Israel was not God's chosen people, they are still doing the right thing. The bloodthirsty terrorist must be STOPPED. PERIOD!
 

---

Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:



Israel is doing the right thing!!!

Even if Israel was not God's chosen people, they are still doing the right thing. The bloodthirsty terrorist must be STOPPED. PERIOD!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:



Israel is doing the right thing!!!

Even if Israel was not God's chosen people, they are still doing the right thing. The bloodthirsty terrorist must be STOPPED. PERIOD!

---

Ah, a flag graphic - It seems we've run out of debate and gone to animated GIF files. I salute your cunning argument sir
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Miguel:
The problem is not that, they Israelites but that they are a Democracy... “Freedom”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:



Israel is doing the right thing!!!

Even if Israel was not God's chosen people, they are still doing the right thing. The bloodthirsty terrorist must be STOPPED. PERIOD!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:

Israel is fulfilling what scripture has declared would happen at the end

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
http://directory.kol-israel.com/asites/?


The extent of Iran's intimate involvement in Hizbullah attacks is starting to emerge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


We didn't attack any of the Christian quarters of Beirut. We didn't attack any of the Christian residential areas in any part of Lebanon. We attacked only those areas where they had the missile launchers, where they had the command positions of Hezbollah, the storage houses, logistic centres and so on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kindgo:
Andy, seems to me you just refuse to give the Israelies any credit at all. They are not the bad guys here. People are supernaturaly against the jews , so you just fit right in with the rest of the world , condemming Israel no matter what they do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kindgo:
Andy, seems to me you just refuse to give the Israelies any credit at all. They are not the bad guys here. People are supernaturaly against the jews, so you just fit right in with the rest of the world, condemming Israel no matter what they do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by freddy05:
From what I read in the news today, looks like another 30 or so people are dead. About 15 on each side. I really hope this ends soon.

---

WON'T end till Messiah comes back and puts EVERYTHING under His dominion.

But you don't understand that.
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
Also all the land Israel is fighting over belongs to THEM, Yahweh DEEDED it to them.

And in the end Israel WILL UNDISPUTEDLY possess it legally and TOTALLY.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Amen Walt!!!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Media Bias

The photo suggests a Palestinian so badly beaten that blood was running down his face. Publishing such an inflammatory photo had to generate extreme outrage against Israel, and the Times had to know it.

But the caption was effectively a lie.

The victim was a Jew beaten by Arabs. The Israeli policeman was defending the victim. When the Times was forced to retract, they did it grudgingly and then added another lie to the story until public outrage forced them to come clean with the real story.

The action of the Times ("All the news that's fit to print") was so outrageous that a media watchdog organization was born in response. Please go here and see "the photo that started it all" on the top right. Then read the details of how the New York Times prints 'all the news that fits.' There is no mention that anyone at the Times was punished. If the once-prestigious New York Times can be so deceptive, then we are now in a new era of extreme media dishonesty and we must be extra vigilant.

In the Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel's Arab enemies long ago developed an effective way to promote anti-Jewish terror and win the public relations battle in the process. Yasser Arafat early on employed the tactic of shooting at Jews from behind Arab women and children, who were used as shields. The Israelis were caught in a dilemma. Not to fire back meant being helpless to respond to the ongoing slaughter of Jews, but to fire back meant unavoidable loss of Arab civilians, including children. And that, with a complicit media conveniently present (by appointment?) to see and film, and later to edit. The resulting story would emphasize the retaliation over the provocation, making it seem as if Israel was deliberately targeting Arab civilians. Reality would be a product manufactured to suit.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Andy, Freddy and so many are indoctrinated by the liberal media. Israel is defending itself from a pack of rabid dogs, and the propaganda is being well used to sway too many in the west against Israel:


Propaganda revealed

This past Saturday, The New York Times and many other papers published a
picture - supplied by the Associated Press - of an angry Israeli policeman
and a badly-beaten and bloodied man, with the caption, "An Israeli
policeman and a Palestinian on the Temple Mount."
The picture can be seen at <http://www.IsraelNationalNews.com>.

Dr. Aaron Grossman, of Chicago, Ill. [6737 N Richmond Chicago, IL 60645],
sent the following letter to the Times:

"Regarding your picture on page A5 (Sept. 30) of the Israeli soldier and
the Palestinian on the Temple Mount - that Palestinian is actually my son,
Tuvia Grossman, a Jewish student from Chicago. He, and two of his friends,
were pulled from their taxicab while traveling in Jerusalem, by a mob of
Palestinian Arabs and were severely beaten and stabbed. That picture could
not have been taken on the Temple Mount because there are no gas stations
on the Temple Mount and certainly none with Hebrew lettering, like the one
clearly seen behind the Israeli soldier attempting to protect my son from
the mob."

Tuvia Grossman was on his way to the Western Wall on Friday afternoon, and
has been hospitalized ever since with head injuries and a stab wound.
He told Arutz-7 today:

"I was in a taxi on the way to the Kotel [Western Wall] and we got
stoned... [They took me out of the car and beat me and] I gave a scream,
and for a second they let go of me, and I said Shma Yisrael, because I
thought it was all over... After they let go of me, I ran - even though I
had a knife in my leg, G-d gave me the strength to run and I was able to
make it up the hill where there were soldiers by the gas station and they
took care of me. But I was being beaten for around 5 or 6 minutes with a
rock on the top of my head, and I was stabbed in the back of my leg and
kicked and punched all over my body."

"[When I saw the mis-captioned AP picture] I was extremely, extremely
upset. People see a picture of a youth and they think that it's a
Palestinian being beaten by Israelis, it changes their world view and makes
them think that it's the Israelis beating up the Arabs. I was extremely
upset. It was totally the opposite. That policeman was yelling at the
Arabs to back off, and was protecting me from them - so to change it around
and to say that he was beating me, that's just total distortion, and the
world must be notified about how this is not true - the Jews are the ones
suffering at the hands of the Arabs."

The Times published a correction today, in which it identified Tuvia
Grossman as "an American student in Israel" - not as a Jew who was beaten
by Arabs. The "correction" also noted that "Mr. Grossman was wounded" in
"Jerusalem's Old City" - although in fact it occurred in an Arab-populated
neighborhood of Jerusalem, not in the Old City. An Associated Press
spokesman told Arutz-7 that it was looking into the matter.

Dear Editor,
Even the typically biased and slanted NY Times middle east
reporting has hit a new low.
Since the Times wishes to convey the belief that the Palestinians
are all innocent lambs being tormented by an aggressive oppressor,
it can not even conceive that the wounded and injured are NOT Palestinians.

The current case in point is very personal to me. In the Saturday's Times
on page A6, the picture of the "wounded Palestinian" is, in fact,
my nephew, Tuvia Grossman, an AMERICAN Jewish student
learning in Israel.

His only crime was being Jewish.
He was not in "crossfire" but merely the target of Palestinian
lambs who stoned his cab, dragged him from the vehicle, smashed his
head with stones and stabbed him in the leg.
The Israeli soldier, whom you obviously wished to portray as victimizing
the poor, wounded Palestinian was actually saving my nephew's life.
A casual look at the background of the picture can tell anyone that
it's not the Temple Mount at all. I believe that a retraction, in a prominent
position in the paper, is necessary and an apology to the parents,
forthcoming.
Howard Gissinger
2809 Avenue S, Brooklyn, New York 11229

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
Isn't it just AWESOME, that while most of the world is in fear and worry, and anxiety over the termoil in Israel, we know the FINAL outcome.

That Israel will FINALLY turn and see Y'shua as their Messiah!!!

That Yahweh will RESTORE the nation of Israel before all the world to see!!!

Hallelu Yah Hallelu Yah Hallelu Yah
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Isn't it just AWESOME, that while most of the world is in fear and worry, and anxiety over the termoil in Israel, we know the FINAL outcome.

That Israel will FINALLY turn and see Y'shua as their Messiah!!!

That Yahweh will RESTORE the nation of Israel before all the world to see!!!

Hallelu Yah Hallelu Yah Hallelu Yah




Amen and Amen!!!!!!!!

Romans 11:
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Zech. 14:
7: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8: And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10: All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11: And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12: And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13: And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14: And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15: And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the *** , and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17: And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20: In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21: Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
 

---

Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
AISH 2-MINUTE MOVIE
LEBANON MYTHS & FACTS
http://www.aish.com/movies/haaretz/Lebanon.asp

I thought I would post this hear. Truly I do not know where to post this!
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:


Andy, Freddy and so many are indoctrinated by the liberal media. Israel is defending itself from a pack of rabid dogs, and the propaganda is being well used to sway too many in the west against Israel:


Propaganda revealed

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Andy you have been indoctrinated with anti-Israel prejudice from your media, and especially from the pulpits of the Church of England. Your intial posts in this thread, showed your intrinsic bias as you reiterated the liberal catch-phrases, in sweeping condemnation:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:


This is the same liberal bottom-line which the doctored photos and false reports from Lebenan seeks to reinforce.

The truth of the matter is that Israel practices great restraint in its responses, and has utilized surgical strikes rather than blanket decimation, which would more effectively clear the areas, and keep their troops much safer. It is Israel which has a high regard for human life, unlike their enemy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:

You have been indoctrinated by your culture with an intrinsic animosity towards Israel. It is the perspective which you bring to the table, and a very real reflection of the European attitude in general.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:
Ah, a flag graphic - It seems we've run out of debate and gone to animated GIF files. I salute your cunning argument sir

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:

And what if some rogue outfit in Canada were lobbing a 1,000 missiles into our country? I guess we'd just sit by and do nothing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
There is no use to debate something that is not debateable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
Yahweh never promised this land to the Indians, so that comparison is meaningless.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by freddy05:
The point of the comparison is to try to help you try to understand a bit more about what real people are going through in the middle east. I don´t know if its simply that you have a hard heart, or if its that your politics trump the message of compassion Jesus had, or what... but I do know the attitude that you have towards to poor and suffering is not Christ.

Think about how you would feel if the government tried to take a house from you for a freeway project. Real people are having their lives destroyed, without compensation, by a foreign government. I can´t rejoice in that because it fits into the "gameplan" of one view of how the end times will play out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by freddy05:

Perhaps one day God will give the land to Israel by peaceful means. I can´t imangine that at this point in history, but I wouldn´t put it past God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
You have NO IDEA of my attitude to the poor and suffering.

I DO have compassion, but the tempral MUST be tied to the eternal or it's wasted.

I've voluntered at a truck stop chapel for going on 4 years now - and I minister to the homeless and drunks there in the area.

I've been to Israel twice (not tourist)
To Ivory Coast twice and Haiti, so I've SEEN real suffering.
With Haiti, they root of the problem there is demonic as voodoo is well practiced and has a major stronhold.
Giving food WITHOUT trying to break the demonic strongholds is POINTLESS.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by freddy05:

I can guarantee you, that giving food (without bible) to starving person means a lot to the starving person.

---

quote:

---

There is no use to debate something that is not debateable.

Israel is doing the right thing!!!

That is why they are at war. The debate is over and they have taken action because they are in the right. Period.

So I am on their side and continue to stand there.

---

 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
God bless each of my Brothers and Sisters who honor Israel in their hearts and prayers. They say a picture is worth a thousand words and in this case many more:



 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
But they have not, so you are worrying about something that has not happened.

You could say that God may say He really is not God. But that don't make it true.

---

I used that as an example of a line that you might draw in critism of Israel. Either Israel is immune to critism or it is not - if not then the decision is where you draw the line and how you balance critism of what might be called sinful actions, with risking 'cursing' Israel as described in Genesis.

My feeling is that Israel has crossed that line and deserves to be rebuked for some of its actions - clearly everyone else posting in the tread doesn't!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
My feeling is that Israel has NOT crossed that line

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
Israel dropped leaflets BEFORE hand warning the population.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
When it comes to Islam - there is NO "grey" area.

They are COMPLETELY in the black.

---

And therefore any means of killing them is ok, including cluster bombs in residential areas? Did those leaflets Israel dropped also mention that cluster bombs would still be in their neighborhoods once the fighting was over?

One can be against Israel´s actions in a specific instance without supporting Islam.
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
Two direct questions freddy

Is Islam an evil religion?

Who started the aggresions?

I'm NOT ignorant - I've been to Israel twice (not as a tourist) have you been there?
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
And also freddy WHY aren't you as condeming of the terrorists as you are on the people fighting back?

ALL I see you doing is attacking Israel.

When someone is trying to commit genocide on your country and people (and that's what Islam IS trying to do) don't you have the RIGHT to defend yourselves with whatever it takes?
 

---

Posted by freddy05 (Member # 5854) on :
 
Your ignorance on the situation in southern lebanon is pure ignorance. You really think the leaflets justify the cluster bombs...

Yes I have been to Israel. I have visited with an open mind the west bank, jordan, and egypt as well. I count some jews and some arabs in the region as personal friends. I have seen first hand the destruction caused by Israel, as well as Israeli families torn apart by terrorism.

I spend more time condeming israel than arab terrorists on these boards because I see many ignorant comments about israel. I don´t see people making ignorant comments supporting terror. If people were, I would be debating them and I would probably appear very pro-israel.

Who started the aggression? Personally, I don´t think that really matters at this point... but I guess God did by commanding a group of people into an occupied land... or maybe the British with their actions post WW2... or the Israelis in the 6 day war... but the arabs were threatening so they did... but the Israelis did by holding land in the north... but Hezbollah did by capturing 2 Israeli soldiers...

Is Islam EVIL? Depends what you mean I suppose. If you mean anything that is not going to heaven, then I suppose. If you are talking about terrorist who kill in the name of islam, yes. If you are talking about the camel hearder that saved me in the sahara desert (true story) then no.

Do you think blowing up kids via neglagence is EVIL? Do you think God would support that? Does it make a difference if they are evil muslim kids?
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
You, as a typical liberal you attack Israel.

What do you think the leaders is Israel ought to do to people who will stop at NOTHING to totally wipe them out.

And DON'T suggest peace negotiations, they have not nor WILL NOT work.

It's the MUSLIMS that send suicide bombers to PURPOSEFULLY target innocent civiilians.

The Muslims are the INITIATORS, and Israel RESPONDS.
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
freddy, do you know HOW this is all going to end?

Yahweh HIMSELF will TOTALLY wipe out the muslims and Israel will be VICTORIOUS.

I know the begining, and I know the end, so as it all works out I know WHICH side to be on.
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
Romans 11:1-36
(1) I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(2) God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
(3) "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
(4) But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
(5) In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
(6) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
(7) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
(8) just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
(9) And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
(10) "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
(11) I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
(12) Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
(13) But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
(14) if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
(15) For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
(16) If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
(17) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
(18) do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
(19) You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
(20) Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
(21) for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
(22) Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
(23) And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
(24) For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
(25) For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
(26) and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
(27) "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
(28) From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
(29) for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(30) For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
(31) so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
(32) For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
(33) Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
(34) For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
(35) Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
(36) For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


Do you really grasp what Yahweh is saying here?
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
Genesis 12:1-3
(1) Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;
(2) And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
(3) And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
Hmm, I said that I wouldn't post again in this thread, but I can't ignore the last part:

You have posted your own answer wparr

Israel IS capable of sinning, as are we all. If you could go and see the horrendous damage cluster munitions do rather than sitting in your nice safe seat in the US and watching the Fox News sanitised version you would fall on your knees and weep at the horror of it. Cluster bombs are a weapon of terror, designed to leave lethal bomblets lying over a wide area and their effect particularly hits children.

You seem unable to grasp the concept of being able to critise the conduct of Israel while recognising the right to self defence and condemning the terrorists.

Why do you find this concept so difficult to grasp?

Critising Israel's actions is not an act of condemning the country - if a christian brother or sister does something wrong do you say something to them or ignore it? The same concept applies to Israel - if they do something wrong we are duty bound to condemn the action - this does not mean we are condemning the country.

I have plenty of things to repent for, but it seems from your last few posts Wparr, you have at least one today as well.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
God bless you Walt;

The Duo of deception will look for any angle to attack and condemn Israel.

This is the reality which the liberals will continue to ignore:




Children wearing military camouflage uniforms and carrying Hezbollah flags in a parade. The educational institutions are raising the younger generation on the principles of violence and hatred for Israel.
Hizbullah´s Fundraising Network
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
ahar:

Israel is RESPONDING to Islamists who INITIATE genocidal terror.

WHERE is your comdemnation of the EVIL Islamists initiators of terror??

You have NO NO NO credibility critisizing Israel if you don't condem the TRUE evil in the battle of Israel's survival.

NO ONE here has said Israel doesn't sin.

In fact this whole conflict is because of sin - Abraham's sin of trying to bring about Yahweh's promise in the flesh.

They are reaping now what Abraham sowed.


Yahweh IS in control thru all this, and will bring Israel into His arms as they will FINALLY reconize Y'shua as Messiah.

And I don't watch Fox news (your liberal blinding bias is showing thru) because I don't get any tv programing.
I get my news from multiple internet sites, and from Scripture (which tells me WHICH side is God's and which side is satan's - I PRAY you can discern that)
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:

WHERE is your comdemnation of the EVIL Islamists initiators of terror??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:

You have NO NO NO credibility critisizing Israel if you don't condem the TRUE evil in the battle of Israel's survival.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:

NO ONE here has said Israel doesn't sin.

In fact this whole conflict is because of sin - Abraham's sin of trying to bring about Yahweh's promise in the flesh.

They are reaping now what Abraham sowed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:


And I don't watch Fox news (your liberal blinding bias is showing thru) because I don't get any tv programing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by yahsway:
Well this ought to interesting. Can we also discuss how "liberal" the muslim nations are?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
God bless you Walt;

The Duo of deception will look for any angle to attack and condemn Israel.

This is the reality which the liberals will continue to ignore:

---

The Duo of Deception! I like that!

I understand how one could agree with the rendition your cartoon of the Arab and Israel soldiers with baby carriages portrays...

However, thinking a bit more deeply, and putting things into a historical context... The reasons the arab armies have resorted to such tactics has more to do with economics and war tactics than God vs Satan. Historically, anytime an army is greatly outmatched they resort to similar tactics. Look at Colombia specifically, or any conflict throughout the world where one side was outmatched by impossible odds.

Of course this doesn´t fit in to your nice little boxed view of the world, so you will reject it.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Actually Freddy it would be more accurate if the baby had dynamite strapped on and it was being rolled towards the Israeli.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Islamic Schools Indoctrination in Hate

School Books

1. Israel does not appear on any maps of the world in the new PA textbooks, while maps of Israel replace the name Israel with "Palestine" in all of the new Palestinian Authority school books.

2. The new Palestinian school books "annex" sites in Israel to Palestine. "Haifa is a Palestinian seaport." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language] Vol. 2, 5th grade textbook, p. 86) "Galilee, Nazareth and Beit She'an are regions in Palestine." (Al-Iqtisad Al-Manzili [Home Economy], 10th grade textbook, pp. 36-37)

3. The new Palestinian school books mention Israel only as an enemy, in reference to "occupation of lands" in 1948 and 1967: "There is no doubt that the Israeli occupation has a negative impact on [Palestinian] agriculture and its export." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language] Vol. 1, 10th grade textbook, p. 102)

4. The new Palestinian school books present Zionism only as an enemy movement: "The Palestinian people are under an oppressive siege, limiting their movement and way of life." (Al-Tarbiyah Al-Islamiyyah [Islamic Education], Vol. 1, 5th grade textbook, p. 49) Accusation against settlements (from 1948!) of damaging water sources, as in "the influence of settlement on sources of water in Palestine." (Ulum Al-Sihha Wal-B'ia [Health and Environmental Sciences], 10th grade textbook, p. 122) "The Palestinian family has problems...stemming from the occupation... it loses father, mother or son to death or imprisonment... endures the difficulties of life..." (Al-Tarbiyah Al-Wataniyya [National Education], 5th grade textbook, p. 23)

5. The new Palestinian school books make the false claim that an "extremist Zionist" set fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 1969 (Tarikh Al-'Alam Al-Hadith Wal-Mu'asir [History of the New Modern World], 10th grade textbook, p. 106), when it was really a mentally unstable fundamentalist Christian Australian.

6. The new Palestinian school books teach that the First Zionist Congress at Basel fostered the Zionist State based on a secret decision of what came came to be known as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. (Tarikh Al-'Alam Al-Hadith Wal-Mu'asir [History of the New Modern World], 10th grade textbook, pp. 60-64)

7. The new Palestinian school books teach that the only ancient inhabitants of Israel were Arabs, ignoring any ancient Jewish presence: "Concentrated... in the land of Al-Sham [Greater Syria]... was the culture of the Canaanite and Aramaic peoples who migrated there from the Arab peninsula." (Tarikh al-Hadarat Al-Qadima [History of Ancient Civilizations], 5th grade textbook, Foreword)

8. The new Palestinian school books teach that Palestinians must use war and violence - especially martyrdom - to accomplish their goals: The heroic mother, "who incessantly presents one sacrifice [fida'] after another." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language], Vol 2, 5th grade textbook, p. 31) The warrior goes to war faced with one of the good options: victory or martyrdom in battle for the sake of Allah. (Ibid. Vol. 1, 5th grade textbook, p. 70). "Allah gave the people of this land [Al-Sham and Palestine] an important task: they must stand on the forefront of the Muslim campaign against their enemies, and only if they fulfill their duty to their religion, nation, and land will they be rewarded as stated in the scriptures." (Al-Tarbiya Al-Islamiyyah (Islamic Education), Vol 2, 10th grade textbook, p. 50)

9. The new Palestinian school books feature children with names such as Jihad (holy war) and Nidal (struggle). (Tarikh Al-Hadarat Al-Qadima [History of Ancient Civilizations], 5th grade textbook, p.6)

10. The new Palestinian school books stress the importance of "return" of refugees to all of Palestine - by violence: "The wrong must be made right by returning them to their homes: we returned to the homeland after a long absence." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language], Vol 2, 5th grade textbook, p. 43) "Returning to the homes, the plains and the mountains, under the banners of glory, jihad [holy war] and struggle." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language], Vol 1, 5th grade textbook, p.88)
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

---

The reasons the arab armies have resorted to such tactics has more to do with economics and war tactics than God vs Satan. Historically, anytime an army is greatly outmatched they resort to similar tactics. Look at Colombia specifically, or any conflict throughout the world where one side was outmatched by impossible odds.

Of course this doesn´t fit in to your nice little boxed view of the world, so you will reject it.

---

It does not fit with the Bible's view either... all things have to do with GOd vs Satan:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

---

Posted by freddy05 (Member # 5854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Actually Freddy it would be more accurate if the baby had dynamite strapped on and it was being rolled towards the Israeli.

---