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Author
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Topic: Compassion for the sake of compassion
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Jazzee
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Member # 6040
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posted
help for homescholers
I don't think we disagree on the fact that salvation of souls is the most important thing.
We don't disagree in the fact that man has fallen from the grace of God either.
However. Adam was still created in the image of God also after the fall of man. We are not all of a sudden created in the image of something else. This is why God wants to restore us and save us. We are STILL precious, we are still His children. Remember the story of the prodigal son. He is the symbol of an unsaved person, basically a person that chose the world instead of God. Jesus still talks of him as a son. But he was a son separated from his father and his inheritance. This is how we MUST see unsaved people. I find this to be VERY important. If we start seeing our fellow man as NOT children of God, we start seeing them as less than us. How can we bring Gods love to them if we do not see them as equally as important than ourselves? It will eventually rob us of all humility.
We are still created in the Image of God. That is what separates us from all other living beings on this planet.
If people do God pleasing things such as showing compassion, love, faithfulness etc. They are doing Gods will.God has placed His law in our hearts and some people are more sensible to it than others..even if they don't know God...yet. It does not mean they are saved. Only Jesus can save us. But to call these actions evil or indifferent if they are not done by a christian is arrogance.
if we start measuring whether it pays to be compassionate then it is not compassion. Compassion has to come natural to us. We can not be calculating like "it doesnt pay to be compassionate in this situation cause I won't get a chance to testify" or "I wont help this person cause the person has clearly stated that he/she doesn't want to hear about Jesus" God Himself let it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. We must do the same.
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all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
Posts: 34 | From: Denmark | Registered: Aug 2006
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Eden
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posted
Good works of compassion are a heritage of Christianity also:
Matthew 5:16 (NJKV)
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
Ephesians 2:10 (NJKV)
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
1 Timothy 6:18 (NJKV)
Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share,
Titus 3:8 (NJKV)
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Titus 3:14 (NJKV)
And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works.
1 Peter 2:12 (NJKV)
Having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Be blessed.
Eden
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
To Jazzee:
Brother Keith has said it very well with scripture:
You cannot be saved by being a 'good person':
"For by grace are ye saved through faith...Not of works, lest any man should boast." ( Ephesians 2:8a-9 )
And there are not 'many' paths to God, there's only One:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ( John 14:6 )
The Bible tells us that everyone is a sinner:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:23 )
You must realize that there is a punishment for sin:
"For the wages of sin is death..." ( Romans 6:23a )
This does not mean only physical death, but also spiritual death:
"...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." ( Matthew 10:28b )
Jesus died on the cross for your sins:
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." ( Romans 5:8 )
And then He rose from the dead, conquering death:
"Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;" ( Acts 10:40 )
Because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, eternal life becomes a free gift from God:
"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." ( Romans 5:18 )
"...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:23b )
Just like any gift, it doesn't become yours until you receive it. To receive God's gift of eternal life, you must call on the name of the Lord:
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." ( Romans 10:13 )
Time is growing short and you should not put off your decision. The Bible tells us:
"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)" ( 2 Corinthians 6:2 )
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I really prayed about this yesterday. It disturbed me to be so misunderstood. I had a long drive for work yesterday about 540 miles and I always enjoy the time that the long drive gives me to talk to GOd.
Sorry for the misunderstanding - I agree that salvation is the most important thing.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Jazee... God created man in his image.. however, because of sin.. we procreate in the image of Adam..
Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
I really prayed about this yesterday. It disturbed me to be so misunderstood. I had a long drive for work yesterday about 540 miles and I always enjoy the time that the long drive gives me to talk to GOd.
The Bible says that the Spirit will give to us what we need to say and when it came to me what I was trying to say it was so simple that it just made me chuckle.
What I am trying to say is this...
Eternity... the soul is the most important thing. Jesus died to save our souls from hell. God gave everything.. everything for our souls.
Yes, we must feed the poor, help the helpless, do good to everyone that crosses our path... but not first.. first is the Gospel... first and foremost is the witness of Christ's salvation.
What profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul.
Any good done for the flesh, that does not first endeavor to save the soul is not God's good. Jesus said seek ye first the KINGDOM and all these things ... what we would eat... what we would wear..etc would be added.. BUT FIRST is the Kingdom.
That is charity... that is GOD's love the love that sees a bigger picture than this earth and the things of it and in it that will pass away.
Those are all my words.. what came to me in the Spirit was this..
Tell them you are saying the Gospel is first. ANd that really is what I am saying. That to me is GOd's way... it is not man's way.
Paul said it like this:
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
and like this...
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Jesus said it like this...
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Mr 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Jazzee
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I know that a human can become evil, but the fact that Adam and Eve sinned does not mean that we are no longer created in the image of God. We can chose to listen to God or the Devil. God is good, when we listen to Him we do what is right. Devil is evil when we listen to him we do evil. When we listen to our own flesh we go astray and become confused.
God speaks to everybody, christians and nonchristians. The difference is that 1. christians are saved. 2. We are aware that God speaks to us and therefore more concerned and conscious about His voice. It does not mean that non christians can't hear His voice. They just don't know that it is His voice.However some non christians listen more to God than others.
Have you allways been a christian?
I haven't. I know now that God definately spoke to me all my life. Thats why I eventually came to Him. Just didn't know it was Him untill now.
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all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Are you saying that humans are inheritely evil?
"The heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?"
The Scriptures declare you are wrong.
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Jazzee
I don't believe so. We are inheritely sinful yes, but how can a creature being created in the image of God be inheritely evil?
because when Adam and Eve sinned they lost the pure image of Yahweh they were created with.
Leave a child to his or her own imagination, with no guidance and direction from scripture and you will see how evil a human can become.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Jazzee
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Are you saying that humans are inheritely evil?
I don't believe so. We are inheritely sinful yes, but how can a creature being created in the image of God be inheritely evil?
We as christians are in no ways more unselfish or "good" than Gods other children. We are just saved, thats that.
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all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Andy; I give up. It seems that my ability to communicate a thought to you in a way that will not be misunderstood and taken completely out of context from what I am trying to convey is simply not there. My apologies for my lack of language or what ever it is that makes what I am saying and what you are hearing so different. I in no way intend to convey these things...
[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to say that a compassionate act is hollow if it does not further the kingdom of God as for a compassionate act for this world alone with pass away with it, and therefore was a futile effort in the first place.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Andy; I give up. It seems that my ability to communicate a thought to you in a way that will not be misunderstood and taken completely out of context from what I am trying to convey is simply not there. My apologies for my lack of language or what ever it is that makes what I am saying and what you are hearing so different. I in no way intend to convey these things...
Thanks for the clarification. Don't give up - it's been said that the UK and US are two countries divided by a common language ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Andy; I give up. It seems that my ability to communicate a thought to you in a way that will not be misunderstood and taken completely out of context from what I am trying to convey is simply not there. My apologies for my lack of language or what ever it is that makes what I am saying and what you are hearing so different. I in no way intend to convey these things...
quote:
"By your principle, before EVER saving an infants life we should make an assessment of whether they will become a christian or not"
No, not so, we are not even to say who will ascend or decend. Not at all what I am saying. No point trying to clarify.
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I seem to remember you're a nurse - does this sound like a good plan to you?
I am not and have never been a nurse have never said I was a nurse.
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People who are not saved can be motived by a real desire to help others just as christians can.
I believe that in an unborn again person, the underlying motive will be "self something" and not true agape. Short sighted at best.
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We are called to love our neighbour, whether they are christian or not.
I agree 100%
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You seem to be implying that charity should only be given to those who are saved????
That is obscene! No, that is in no way my thought! First of all we were talking about the good that the UN and other politically - not agape - but political power motivated groups do.
Secondly true Charity is for the world.. for the just and the unjust or it is not Charity. GOd loved the WORLD so much that HE gave HIS Only Begotten SON. Charity does not however seeking to end the world's suffering in the flesh and give no attention to the soul.
Mr 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
I am saying that you can do all the things in the world that you can think of that are good and without Charity it will be of no good. Charity must come from GOD.. The calling of deeds done by the ungodly as good is not so, because without Godly love ...agape.. those deeds profit nothing.. they are short sighted.. they have missed a bigger picture.
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So tell me, does this mean that ALL natural disasters are a judgement?
Again, I did not say this.
Personally, I believe that Katrina was one of two things.. a humanly created and manipulated storm or God's judgment on this nation for its foreign policies against Israel, and if it was a man made manipulated weather system as some believe it was, then in the long run, it was perhaps still a form of judgment against this nation who calls itself under God and does everything in the world contrary to God's word and will that it can think of, because at any moment GOD could have changed the course of the storm and did not. My undersxtanding is that God is not in this age of grace judging individuals, but GOd is still judging nations.. setting kings upon thrones and taking them down as HE wills.
I think that what Dale has said below is an excellent comment (note it speaks of idividuals)and I agree with him on this.. I see that this is exactly how katrina affected individuals.
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Yahweh uses tragedy to perfect His children, does He cause it, I really cant say.
What I can say is what examples I see in the scriptures
Did Yahweh cause the storm that the Apostle Paul was on when they were bringing Paul for trial?
No but we see that Yahweh warned Paul and told Paul how to save the live of the other on the ship.
Did Yahweh cause the storm on the Sea of Galilee, which caused the disciples to fear for their lives?
Yahweh did not cause that storm, we know this because Yeshua rebuked the storm, and Yeshua would never rebuke His Father.
Storms have one of two effects on individuals!
A storm natural as to do with weather or just storms of life
1) will cause you to take your eyes (spiritual) off Yeshua
2) will cause you to fix your eyes (spiritual) on Yeshua
I also agree with this...but you will note again.. within your power and realm of influence.
quote:
If it is in your power and realm of influence to help someone, anyone and you do not do so; the love of Yahweh is not in you,
But just because you do good for those around you does not necessarily constitute you are a child of Yahweh.
Evil people can do good works, but good works without the testimony of the transforming power of grace present in the life profits nothing.
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becauseHElives
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If it is in your power and realm of influence to help someone, anyone and you do not do so; the love of Yahweh is not in you,
But just because you do good for those around you does not necessarily constitute you are a child of Yahweh.
Evil people can do good works, but good works without the testimony of the transforming power of grace present in the life profits nothing.
quote:
So tell me, does this mean that ALL natural disasters are a judgments?
Yahweh uses tragedy to perfect His children, does He cause it, I really cant say.
What I can say is what examples I see in the scriptures
Did Yahweh cause the storm that the Apostle Paul was on when they were bringing Paul for trial?
No but we see that Yahweh warned Paul and told Paul how to save the live of the other on the ship.
Did Yahweh cause the storm on the Sea of Galilee, which caused the disciples to fear for their lives?
Yahweh did not cause that storm, we know this because Yeshua rebuked the storm, and Yeshua would never rebuke His Father.
Storms have one of two effects on individuals!
A storm natural as to do with weather or just storms of life
1) will cause you to take your eyes (spiritual) off Yeshua
2) will cause you to fix your eyes (spiritual) on Yeshua
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Man's work is still motivated by man's agenda. Only GOD is capable of true compassion.. compassion or love that loves purely... has no other motivation than love. Only GOD is capable of seeing the bigger picture where eternal life is more emportant because it is eternal than is this life which will pass away,
I agree that man is tainted by sin and thus God's compassion is true compassion, but that does not negate compassion that can be felt by humans. People who are not saved can be motived by a real desire to help others just as christians can.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I have used this example in the past and it is not popularly accepted but it illustrates my point..
There are groups out there that feed the hungry. Is this good? Not necessarily. If you take an infant that may die of starvation and feed him enough to cause him to live to an age of accountibility and do not give him the gospel, have you been compassionate? I think no.
<SNIP>
Further, even the born again can do his own works and not the works of God and that is exemplified in organizations like feed the children who claim to be doing good works feeding children, but are not doing GOd's work.. they are doing satan's work because they take children that would die in an age of innocence when God could and would have compassion and they bring them to an age of accountibility without giving them the gospel and may just be bringing them to a place of Condemnation.
This is a terrible example as it's underlying logical conclusions spread much further than simply feeding the poor. If you are not going to save an infants life by feeding it because the person is not going to follow up with evangelism, then exactly the same rule must be applied to all non christian people involved with stopping infants from dying everywhere - doctors, nurses, midwives etc.
By your principle, before EVER saving an infants life we should make an assessment of whether they will become a christian or not - if we believe not then switch off the machines, withdraw treatment and watch them die because it saves them from a life of sin. This is not just the case in african countries for exampe - a principle is a priciple and if it applies in somewhere like Uganda, then it should apply in the US as well. I seem to remember you're a nurse - does this sound like a good plan to you?
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
God does not call us to throw resources to the children of the devourer where they can be devourered. He calls us to go out and bring the children who are in the hands of the devourer out from under the devourer that they can have HIS provision.
<SNIP>
When you see in the Bible examples of leaving crops for the gleaning by the poor etc.. those poor were poor that were either sojourning in the land of the people of GOD or were the poor of the people of God.. there is not one example of the taking of Kingdom of GOD wealth and sowing it among the heathen.
We are called to love our neighbour, whether they are christian or not. You seem to be implying that charity should only be given to those who are saved????
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QB]
God brings judgment to the nations through famine and natural disaster.
[QB]
So tell me, does this mean that ALL natural disasters are a judgement? If they are, are we forbidden from helping as we would be going against God's will?
If all natural disasters are not a judgement and some are just the workings of the world's weather patterns, how do we tell the difference so we can help with the effects of some and not others?
Tell me about the effects of Katrina in New Orleans - judgement or no?
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
THE WORD CHARITY IS AGAPE..
AGAPE IS ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH GOD.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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But that view misses a point....
The works of men cannot be good. Only God is good. Only God's work can be good. Man's work is still motivated by man's agenda. Only GOD is capable of true compassion.. compassion or love that loves purely... has no other motivation than love. Only GOD is capable of seeing the bigger picture where eternal life is more emportant because it is eternal than is this life which will pass away,
I have used this example in the past and it is not popularly accepted but it illustrates my point..
There are groups out there that feed the hungry. Is this good? Not necessarily. If you take an infant that may die of starvation and feed him enough to cause him to live to an age of accountibility and do not give him the gospel, have you been compassionate? I think no.
God does not call us to throw resources to the children of the devourer where they can be devourered. He calls us to go out and bring the children who are in the hands of the devourer out from under the devourer that they can have HIS provision.
When we think that we are doing good, it can be only bad if it is not what GOD is doing. God is concerned with both this life and what comes when this life ends, but his concern for this life is not greater than HIS concern for what is to come when this life ends. God would in a moment sacrifice this life to save someone from HELL. He showed us this with the sacrificial death of HIS ONLY begotten SON.
When man is born again, the Bible says that he ceases from hos own works... GOD by HIS SPirit then works in man... only in the Born again can the motivation be the motivation of GOD.
If man is doing what appears to be good, and that man is not a born again man there is no way that his motivation can be good.
We must make the tree good or make the tree evil. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.. period... no matter how good and kind and compassionate it looks.
Further, even the born again can do his own works and not the works of God and that is exemplified in organizations like feed the children who claim to be doing good works feeding children, but are not doing GOd's work.. they are doing satan's work because they take children that would die in an age of innocence when God could and would have compassion and they bring them to an age of accountibility without giving them the gospel and may just be bringing them to a place of Condemnation.
God's ways are not our ways.
When you see in the Bible examples of leaving crops for the gleaning by the poor etc.. those poor were poor that were either sojourning in the land of the people of GOD or were the poor of the people of God.. there is not one example of the taking of Kingdom of GOD wealth and sowing it among the heathen.
GOD's economy is one which is perpetual provision... that cannot happen when the resources of the kingdom are squandered by throwing them to the devourer.
Now, the UN of course is not a Christian person and so what?
The UN's motivations are not good, and not GOd's motivations. The UN is not doing GOD's work. God brings judgment to the nations through famine and natural disaster. God's work would be to take the Gospel to the poor and bring them into the Kingdom where GOD provides and the Devourer does not devour.
The blessings of God and the blessings of men are two very different things.. the blessings of God are blessing... they add no sorrow. The UN is not capable of bringing blessing that is without sorrow
Pr 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
It is strange to me that some believe that there can be compassion apart from the Gospel. Is God more comcerned with human suffering in this life than the suffering that is to come at the end of this life for those who deny Christ?
God is concerned with both - if this wasn't the case why would we have been commanded to undertake ANY good work except the spreading of the gospel - after all, an hour spent on feeding the hungry is an hour that could be spent on spreading the gospel.
We have been commanded to spread the gospel AND to help our neighbours (i.e. the whole of humanity). It therefore follows that there can be compassion apart from the gospel, but it does not in any way replace the need and the urgency of spreading 'the good news'.
The work that Oxfam, or the UN undertakes in helping the poor around the world is an example of compassion and a good work. However, as has be said by others in this thread: good work alone is not going to get yours or anyone else's sins forgiven.
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Cheers
Andy
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
It is strange to me that some believe that there can be compassion apart from the Gospel. Is God more comcerned with human suffering in this life than the suffering that is to come at the end of this life for those who deny Christ?
Did Jesus not teach that man should not fear the one that could kill you in this life, but the one that could destroy body and soul in hell?
Mother Theresa for example, had great compassion for the human suffering of those in the flesh, but she had no compassion for the soul as she taught and lived heresy that is the to the damnation of people's soul's - Where is the compassion in that? That is not agape.
As usual, Walt, Dale, I am with you on this one!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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J4Jesus
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how i wish i could have been Job
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TB125
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In regard to what is "good", I have an entire website that addresses this question. It is entitled "Christianity and other good topics". It can be seen at http://christianityetc.org.
I haven't written a statement on "compassion" yet, but I probably will.
Although I encourage acts of "goodness", I recognize that none of us can be good enough, consistently compassionate, unconditionally loving, or unselfishly generous enough to earn our salvation from God. That is why God's grace through Jesus is necessary.
Jesus is the essence of Christianity. Repentence and faith in Him is God's primary command to humanity as we dwell on this "battlefield" of the planet earth. The primary commission for God's children is to preach and to teach the gospel, the "good news" of Jesus, to be His witnesses.
Part of the strategy for doing this is to love our neighbors, to be compassionate, to be good sharing stewards of our resources, but that is only part of the strategy. If we are too embarrassed by Jesus to testify to His exclusive sacrifice and glory, then He isn't going to be very impressed by our "good" acts (IMHO).
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Bob
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Jazzee
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Thank you Eden ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
But can someone CLAIM to believe the Bible and believe in Jesus, and ALSO say that other "faiths" get you to heaven??
Those beliefs CONTRADICT each other and someone CAN NOT TRUELY believe both.
To profess other "faiths" get people to heaven is to DENY Christ and Scripture.
What someone PROFESSES is ALSO a fruit we can judge people by.
Mormons, by observation, can bear "good" fruit (good works) by by thier PROFESSION their fruit is ROTTEN.
Fruit and good works must be a RESULT of salvation, if it isn't - it's ROTTEN fruit at best, or POISON fruit
I don't believe that when God looks down and finds one human being helping another, he will ever be angry. This is not to say that spreading the word is not important, but a good act is a good act no matter who performs it. You seem to be implying that unless the person is a Christian, anything they do is bad, as though it is impossible to appraise anything anyone undertakes unless they are saved.
As Christians, we should be happy at an act of goodness between people, no matter who they are.
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Cheers
Andy
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Eden
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If he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and not outwardly, if someone does what is right by nature, does that acquire salvation for them without having to know about Jesus yet, but could be taught the better way later?
In other words, is the gospel only in accepting Jesus or are there personal actions which can equate to that acceptance of Jesus and thus receive salvation?
Eden
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BrianGrass1234
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Also when that compassion is forced to be done by the barrel of a gun. If is far from genuine.
Sorry, I had to throw that in.
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BrianGrass1234
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So I guess I missed the point of the thread. I guess one viewpoint is we should be showing compassion period. The other is compassion with the gospel. Am I right?
Anyway, sometimes when the gospel comes along with the compasion, or sometimes hearing the gospel is a requirement of recieving the compassion, its just a good deed with strings attached and the gospel gets ignored. But if you just show compassion and leave it at that, than the next time you see that person, they may be much more reseptive to the gospel than before. I imagine that our actions really do speak louder than our words and sometimes our words may end up clouding our actions. I think alot of times a good deed could really open up a person to letting God work on there heart to prepare it for the next time they see you.
I think that sometimes when christians do compassionate acts with a sermon at the end, it makes the compassion seem less genuine.
What do you guys think?
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I imagine if God showed enough compassion to sacrifice his Son to save us. I think we should be showing compassion in everywere we see the need.
Yes Yes, but WHAT did this work of compassion accomplish?
SALVATION for undeserving people.
Y'shua laid down His life for our ETERNAL SPIRITUAL needs, not our physical tempral ones.
Showing compassion for the physical tempral needs, while ignoring the eternal spiritual need IS NOT NOT NOT true Christian compassion.
To knowingly allow someone to be deceived by false religion or teaching shows a LACK of compassion and love.
If you saw a baby about to drink poison, wouldn't you try to stop it?
What about a baby Christian taking in spiritual poison with false gospel teaching???????
What about helping a person of a false faith with their bodily needs WITHOUT addressing the spiritual poison that are taking in - Is THAT Christ like compassion???
That's WHY I don't see "Mother" Theresa's works as so good.
She ALLOWED people to continue to be led to hell, but she just made sure they had full bellies when they got there.
I say better in heaven with a hungry belly, than in hell with a full belly.
I know this is NOT popular among most church people, but it IS Scriptural.
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Eduardo Grequi
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The Bible as it says that Jesus is the Way, The Truth and The Life- by their fruits you shall know them.
Fruits come in many shapes and sizes, but faith apart from Jesus, is only minutely good. In that it is good to observe the law.
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BrianGrass1234
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I imagine if God showed enough compassion to sacrifice his Son to save us. I think we should be showing compassion in everywere we see the need.
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wparr
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But can someone CLAIM to believe the Bible and believe in Jesus, and ALSO say that other "faiths" get you to heaven??
Those beliefs CONTRADICT each other and someone CAN NOT TRUELY believe both.
To profess other "faiths" get people to heaven is to DENY Christ and Scripture.
What someone PROFESSES is ALSO a fruit we can judge people by.
Mormons, by observation, can bear "good" fruit (good works) by by thier PROFESSION their fruit is ROTTEN.
Fruit and good works must be a RESULT of salvation, if it isn't - it's ROTTEN fruit at best, or POISON fruit
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Eduardo Grequi
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Salvation is one thing and Compassion is another. Salvation comes thru Jesus the Christ and Compassion comes through a desire to show love. What greater love is this when a friend would lay down his life for another. And as for Many Catholics who choose to stay catholics, who have bonded with Jesus the Christ and forsake certain anti-scripture tradition are nevertheless your brothers and sisters. It is Jesus who heads the Church and it is Jesus who heads the compassion .
BUT HE WHO LOOKS INTO THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY AND CONTINUES IN IT, AND IS NOT A FORGETFUL HEARER BUT A DOER OF THE WORK, THIS ONE WILL BE BLESSED IN WHAT HE DOES. jAMES 1:25
I TIM 6:17-19 Are instruction for the rich, who have the dough. I Timothy is an epistile that declares duties and responsibilites within the servant hood of Christ and people in general.
James 1:26 Is a passage that informs us the believer about he that is relgious should take care the orphans, the widows and to keep oneself with out sin.
If Christians who do not show compassion even amongst their own kind have very questionable ethics to say the least. All rich Christians are ordain to take on the plight of those who have poverty etc.. Our faith is constructed in Christ, therefore we are obligated to show compassion.
DO WE SHOW LOVE ONE TOWARD ANOTHER WHEN WE ABANDON A BROTHERS NEED? Not his wants but the basics things of life. I Corinthians 13 is the love chapter. The abiding attributes are FAITH, HOPE and LOVE, BUT THE GREATER OF THESE IS LOVE
This Chapter on love is built off and defined by the two golden rule. FIRST IS TO LOVE GOD WITH ALL OF OUR BODY,MIND ,SOUL AND MIGHT and the SECOND IS LIKE UNTO THE FIRST TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
How much more compassion can a man have, than to provide the eternal gift of life and love thru Jesus the Christ whom all good things exist.
James has challenged his brethern to not just say the word but put the words in action.
Compassion for the sake of compassion is good cause, but Compassion with the Lord Jesus defies earthly good.
No one here truly knows anyone here unless he abide in personal fellowship. Because the only thing that we use hear are words. WORDS that we take by faith and granite are geniune and forthright.
The Judging of ones faith is by therr fruit. The Judgement of Condemnation is of the Lord, By the Lord, and as the book of the Revelations states, whoever name is not found written in it, is well lost.
I BELIEVE THE BIBLE, I BELIEVE AND AM PERSUADED THAT JESUS WHO IS THE CHRIST , IS THE ANOINTED ONE , THE MESSIAH OF ISREAL WHO HAS BROUGHT THE ULTIMATE GIFT. LIFE ETERNALLY SEALED IN GOD.
HEAR MY PEOPLE, WHAT THE LORD HAS SAID, HARKEN AND GATHER AMONGST YOU, FOR GREAT IS THE LORD, WHO IS FINISHER AND PERFECTOR OF OUR FAITH. STAND GUIRDED SHOW COMPASSION AS THE LORD HAS SHOWN AMONGS YOU.
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becauseHElives
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quote:
good works will be MEANINGLESS without PROPER SCRIPTURAL Faith.
"good" works are NEVER good enough to get anyone into heaven.
Amem wparr
When will mankind understand, it's not about us, ...
It's all about Yeshua
"Seeking Yahweh Finding Love"
As Christians we are always taught to Love God first and Love people second. This is the theme throughout the Bible. All of the Old Testament Laws are based on these two principals. But what does that mean? And how do we get to that place in our spiritual walk? Many teach and have taught that love is a commitment; that we are to grin and bear it, suffer through it, so to speak. We have been taught that love is a set of behaviors. But there is more to it than that because we are taught in 1st Corinthians 13 the great love chapter; (1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NKJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. {2} And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. {3} And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
Mother Teresa did not abandon her faith but reached out thru it.
"Mother" Theresa bought into the damnable herecy that other religions get you into heaven.
Weather she abaondoned her faith, or had a false faith I don't know.
But either way she was deceived by a lie from the pit of hell.
Her good works will be MEANINGLESS without PROPER SCRIPTURAL Faith.
"good" works are NEVER good enough to get anyone into heaven.
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Eden
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I think compassion can be very good, when I think that Jesus said, "with the way you measure others, so shall it also be measured to you":
Mark 4:24 (NJKV)
Then He said to them, Take heed what you hear. For with the same measure that you use, so it will also be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
And:
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.
Romans 2
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified)
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Is this a second parallel gospel that is being offered by God, even if the "traditional" acceptance of Jesus as their savior in a personal way has never been known to this person?
Matthew 22 (NJKV)
37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
The ones who did by nature the things of compassion that were right had the law written in their hearts. Is that good enough to get into heaven?
Eden
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by freddy05:
On the flip side of the question, I am curious how you (and others) reconcile the terrible things that happened to Job with the compassionate loving Christ we see in the new testament.
Because it's ALL about Yahweh and HIS glory.
He will share His Glory with NO ONE.
Remember there is NO ONE innocent in Yahweh's eyes, the new-born baby is born a SINNER.
NO BODY deserves the mercy Yahweh pours out on those He choses to.
Romans 9:14-29
(14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
(15) For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
(16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
(17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
(18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
(19) You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
(20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
(21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
(22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
(23) And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
(24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
(25) As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
(26) "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
(27) Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
(28) FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
(29) And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
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Eduardo Grequi
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Compassion for the sake of Compassion ,something I totally agree with. Apart from politically lead and officiated people, MOTHER TERESA SAID IT BEST " A noble peace prize is not noble when innocent people perish-" Do you remember the 1,000,000 march on Washington D>C concerning the african american, I do. Nothing really changed. Black men leave there responsibilties yet again to the governments. Even the bible says, He that does not work, does not eat.
What do you suppose it meant? If a society who thru a decision of a few allowed their populace to go hungry should be shot at sunrise or their right arm removed.
I do not think we should be feeding the world, if the countries involved do not even try to help themselves. I found it appauling feeding the world, when do not even feed the elderly, the homeless. the downtrodden. I find it quite double tongued that a Pastor has three cars and do nothing to help his neighbor.
Who is his neighbor, read the parable of the Good Samaritan?" Quite touching.
For the record, US troops have become UN troops, even if by faith the individual soldier do not believe in the cause.
Mother Teresa did not abandon her faith but reached out thru it.
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wparr
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But Jesus IS Yahweh of the OT, He NEVER changed.
He is THE SAME yesterday, today and FOREVER.
He is STILL just as HOLY X HOLY X HOLY now as He was in.
Isaiah 6:1-5
(1) In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
(2) Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
(3) And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory."
(4) And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
(5) Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
He is STILL as jealous of a God as was was
Exodus 20:5-6
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Exodus 34:14
--for you shall not worship any other god, for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--
He still has the wrath He did
Psalms 38:1
(1) A Psalm of David, for a memorial. O LORD, rebuke me not in Your wrath, And chasten me not in Your burning anger.
2 Kings 22:17
(17) "Because they have forsaken Me and have burned incense to other gods that they might provoke Me to anger with all the work of their hands, therefore My wrath burns against this place, and it shall not be quenched."'
He has NO MORE grace and love NOW than He did during the flood, or the destruction of Sodom.
Have you read Revelation, the suffering HE brings down to the earth?
The book of Revelation is a unveiling of Y'shua.
He is STILL the consuming fire He was
Deuteronomy 4:24
For Yahweh your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
This goes back to my post about the serious problems of society - NOT having a proper Scriptural understanding and Knowledge of Yahweh.
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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Have you read Job?
How do you square the suffering he and his family went thru at the INVITATION of Yahweh?
God is the one who pointed out Job to satan, took His hand of protection OFF of Job, and CHALLANGED satan.
I see nothing in the nature or personality of Jesus Christ of the New Testiment that he would play games with Satan at the expense of a human. Something chaged with the death and resurection of Christ. And my faith is rooted there. That is the same reason I donīt mind wearing clothes made of two fabrics, I donīt stone people to death when they break an OT law, and I donīt condemn my sister for her small cross tatoo on her ankle.
On the flip side of the question, I am curious how you (and others) reconcile the terrible things that happened to Job with the compassionate loving Christ we see in the new testament.
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wparr
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freddy, to get a better understand of my view of compassion, go to this topic I started last year.
In fact I'm going to be doing a sermon on this in a couple of weeks.
3 parables
If you want I'll send you the audio of it in MP3
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wparr
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Have you read Job?
How do you square the suffering he and his family went thru at the INVITATION of Yahweh?
God is the one who pointed out Job to satan, took His hand of protection OFF of Job, and CHALLANGED satan.
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freddy05
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Wparr and I (and some others) have been going at it on various threads about compassion. So rather than continue to hijack those threads, we can continue here.
Is compassion meaningless and worthless if its not accompanied by Christian teaching? I persoanlly think the UN, Mother Theresa, Bill Gates Foundation have in fact done good things. The easing of human suffering, ie hunger, disease, enouraging peace, etc... I see as a good and noble thing... even if done by a non believer. Is a Muslim man prevents a murder or a rape of child, I do believe that Muslim man has done a good thing in the eyes of God. Doesnīt mean heīll go to heaven for it, but its still good.
The UN in particular... They feed more starving people than any other organization. Yet in the Christian Community (particularily end times zealots) I see much anti UN sentiment and a strong desire to get out. Yet I donīt see this same Christian Community ready to step in and help the poor that would be cut off.
Wparrs view (you can correct me if I put incorrect words in your mouth) is that feeding the hungry and other acts of compassion are meaningless and worthless if it is not accompanied by a gospel message.
I personally have seen so many people turn themselves away by the evangelical attitude of convert, convert, convert... many people, (myself included back in the day) were drawn to Christ by seeing Christians showing unconditional love. Not "Hereīs a cup of soup, now listen to me about what to do to avoid hell".
From the other thread:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
What does it benifit if a mormon feeds a hungry person if both end up in hell?
Did you, in reading Scripture notice that Jesus DIDN'T heal all He came across?
He most definately hade the ability didn't He?
Was He lacking in compassion?
So I ask you why didn't He?
Those are good questions. About the mormon feeding the hungry... maybe there isnīt an eternal difference. I will never know that. Maybe the hungry person will live and one day become a follower of Christ. Maybe the moral compass of the mormon keeps him interested in relgion and continues seeking. But I know that easing the suffering is a good thing.
The questions about Christ not healing all people he came across is a good one. I think that is something all Christians have to resolve. The old "If God is all loving and all powerful then why is there evil?" question. I donīt know why he didnīt heal all, I wasnīt there. But I do know that his example of showing love to people is one that we should follow. Sometimes he did good things and didnīt preach at people. Other times he did.
But when it comes down to it, my "Values" tell me that when an Atheist helps a crying child find his mother, thatīs a good thing.
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