This is topic Terri Schiavo in forum The Christian News at Christian Message Boards.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000749

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Terri Schiavo's parents have finally won an appeal. Their lawyer filed the appeal with the 11th US Circuit Court of Appeals for their case which is based on fact to be heard. The federal court has agreed to do so. This is a victory for Terri's parents and hopefully this court will order Terri's feeding tube re-inserted!

Everyone must continue to pray for Terri and her family and pray that justice will finally rule in favor of Terri!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by redkermit (Member # 4059) on :
 
While this is certainly good news, I read in the paper yesterday that it is probably too late to reverse the damage that has already been done even if the feeding tube is restored. Of course, with God, all things are possible. Let's continue to pray for Terri & her family.
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
With God - it's never too late!! This is great news.

We must continue to pray.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has just rejected the appeal given to them to hold a hearing and to consider other facts. So once again the hopes of Terri Schiavo's parents have been taken away.
We must continue to pray for Terri and her family.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo 320
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
It's quite natural for Terri Schiavo's parents to want to save their daughter's life. It's quite natural for all those who are there in front of the hospice to be praying for Terri for they have caring hearts and compassion for her and they would do the same for any other person who might be in the same position some day. Also those same caring people who are doing the praying do save souls. No this has not distracted the churches away from everything else but all of the people do care enough to pray for Terri in addition to their witnessing.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
What a sad day. I have been praying for her and her family.

I thought about something today. What do you guys think PETA would do if the court ruled it was ok to starve a dog to death? Hmm...

God bless.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I agree Ripp; God has kept her alive these past 12 days, but the court and her husband are trying to kill her. You would be arrested if you denied even an animal water and food for 12 days.

I read that they will not even allow ice to moisten her bleeding dry lips. That is inhumane. I think someone in Florida should have the judge and the husband arrested for abuse and attempted murder.

Clearly, this woman is not dying from natural causes; she is dying from neglect and abuse that would not be legal to do to dog.

It is MURDER. We are watching the courts murder a woman with her family standing by unable to help.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
HelpForHomeSchoolers and Ripp,

Amen to your postings! Anyone who denies any animal food and water is arrested and put on trial for abuse and the animals are taken away and placed in an environment where they will have the best of care. How this can be happening to Terri in this united states is just totally beyond my comprehension. The courts know full well it is killing Terri and furthermore they don't even know the truth of what Terri would have wanted. They're not allowing her family to speak for her - they don't even listen to her family - they are only listening to Michael Schiavo without any written proof of any wishes that Terri may or may not have wanted.
Therefore there is no justice in those courts for Terri and I think it is criminal and barbaric how anyone can condone this being done to her!

I pray that Terri will at least get to have a christian burial rather than the cremation that Michael wants done to her!

We just need to keep praying for Terri and her family!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Every single newscast I have seen has shown a very peaceful group of people holding their bibles and praying quietly for Terri. They hold their signs quietly wanting ever so much for Terri's life to be saved. It is not christian to withhold liquid and food from Terri for she is a human being and she deserves humane loving care just the same as any one else would deserve to have.

I have to wonder why would one person object to people praying for Terri outside the hospice. I would have to wonder if the one person has any love, compassion or empathy in their heart at all and I further wonder how one person can even think that Jesus Christ is not in it for He most certainly is! I have to wonder why one person has to argue over every single thing in a thread!

Terri deserves a christian burial! We are all praying for her and her family and we will continue to do so!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Saintbygrace,

You need to go back and read your own posting where you said "I have problem with people standing out there praying." Those are your own words!

I highly object to your rudeness! I can read quite well thank you!

A christian burial is quite appropriate for Terri and if she could speak she would say it herself.
Regarding your question about cremation I do not know if it's scriptural or not.

Now please refrain from your arguing and being so rude!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Yep we can all read fine:

quote:

---

I have problem with the people standing out there praying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bat Elohim:
can someone start another thread and explain WHY cremation is unscriptural? cause i plan on being cremated.

---

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003105
 

---

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Okay, maybe this will help. I got this from a book called fossilized customs by Lew White.

"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, but people wear black today to funerals because the pagans often burned their dead on raised platforms. The smoke and ashes soiled their garments, so ashes became a symbol of mourning. The dead were burned because pagans believed that burying them would "defile" the Earth. Fire, water, winds, and the earth were sacrad to the pagans." pg 15.

I guess its kinda the same anaolgy why brides wear white at a wedding symbolizing purity.

Lew also states that in "Zoroastrian rituals, the priests were referred to as the "dark ones" because their robes were soiled too easily with the soot and ashes of keeping the sacrad fires going. These fires were used to sacrafice human lives."

"The Zoroastrian monks also wore red ceremonial robes symbolyic of the fire and sun.Israel had no one dressed in black or red, - the priest wore white linen."

So again, I must say that it is just our traditions handed down thru the ages. In am of the personal opinon that when one has passed on, it doesnt matter whether they are cremated or buried seeing that their spirit has gone on, hopefully to be with Yeshua.
 

---

Posted by LaurieFL (Member # 3794) on :
 
I don't think God gives a fig how our flesh is handled after it is dead, as long as we don't allow disease to propagate. We observe Jewish customs of burial recorded in the Bible but that is not in any way a recommendation or law or even indication of God's support or approval of the method, in my opinion.

Now to the important bit of news. Terry is dead. Her parents and family were denied access to her in her last hours of life. How sad for them

I believe that the Lord was with her in her last days and provided her with comfort. I also believe that her death and suffering will be bloodstains on the hands of her husband, who will be dealt with harshly by God unless he repents of his sin.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Terri Schiavo's siblings were with Terri at her bedside up to and within ten minutes of her passing at which time they were asked to leave. Michael was the only one with her at the time of her actual passing at 9:05 a.m.

We need to continue to pray for her family.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Terri Schiavo's siblings were with Terri at her bedside up to and within ten minutes of her passing at which time they were asked to leave. Michael was the only one with her at the time of her actual passing at 9:05 a.m.

We need to continue to pray for her family.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320

---

I find it very suspicious that when Micheal shows up to "spend time" with Terri, she died.

God have mercy on us all. I'm sorry to be so suspicious of him, but that's my gut feeling.
 

---

Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
Even 50 years ago, she and anyone else with similar problems would have died.

Only "modern medicine" has kept her alive.

Please help me understand how her blood will be on her husbands hands?

For the last 6000 years no such problems would have existed, as the person would simply die and go to be with the Lord -

In this case, through what some would deem a "miracle" better known as a tube, she was prevented from going to be with the Lord for 15 years.

Now, please understand that I am not an advocate of euthanasia or mercy killing, etc - Although we know well for 5800 years mercy killing was a part of life, right up until medicine became "modernized" -

But what kind of life is it that lives 15 years immovable in a bed, with no way to communicate, no way to interact?

If she were in a third world country (Some of us would do well to KNOW what really goes on there) she would have died 15 years ago, and been allowed to be with the Lord then...

If she did not live in a modernized country she would not have survived.

I do not believe modern medicine and modern science were gifts from God simply to cheat death -

The resurrection is defeat of death - Resurrection cannot happen until physical death occurs or the Lord returns -

What should they have done? Just kept her a vegetable til Jesus comes back?

Am I to understand that all of you would prefer to be a vegetable, kept alive until who knows when, causing all of your family and friends to lose everything they own to pay for your modernized tube? - When you should have died?

Who is cheating death? Is it of God?

I, for one, would pray that I never became such a burden to anyone and that the Lord would take me and not allow the "miracle" of modern science and medicine to destroy my family and friends financially - The "miracle" of modern medicine is VERY expensive...

I understand the implications and precedent it would set if laws allowed people to make decisions to mercy kill - We do not want this nor do I advocate it, however,

I believe she is thankful that now, FINALLY, she is able to rest - Able to be with the Lord - Absent from the prison that was her body...
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Jim I understand that feeling. I have shared that feeling. I asked the same thing of Drew in another thread when he called this murder. I do believe this was murder because even 50 years ago or 100 years ago, here in the wild west where we are, someone would have tried to hydrate and nourish Terri with an eyedropper if she could swallow her own saliva and she could by the way. We would have left it in God's hands that our efforts would have been sufficient; but Terri was deprived of basic things necessary to sustain life. If I took you a healthy man and denied you food and hydration for an indefinite period of time you would die.

Jim they would not even allow water to moisten her dry bleeding lips.

Terri Schiavo was murdered by a husband who could have cared less about her and a court system that sanctioned his actions.
 

---

Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
Linda -

I agree with you - Completely actually.

But I have to ask the questions because this is such a complicated subject.

I wish there were clear cut answers.
 

---

Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
There's a differnce in removing breathing tubes where the patient will die in minutes vs. starving them to death over two weeks. I find it sickening.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
I too believe that Terri is very thankful to be home with the Lord, to be at rest, to be at peace, and to be free of her body that wouldn't allow her freedom of movement and to be able to talk.

I also hope and pray that I'll never have anything happen to me that would cause me to be a burden upon my wonderful family because I hope and pray to be able to stay strong enough to take care of myself clear up til the minute the Lord takes me home. I've always tried very hard to be and to stay as independent as possible. So far the Lord has answered my prayers to remain independent. I would not want to be on machines unless there was a very good chance that I would indeed recover. I would not want to be deprived of at least having liquids. So far as cremation I do not object to that because it is much less expensive. The cost of a funeral is so terribly expensive.

Michael Schiavo filed a malpractice suit for wrongful diagnosis after Terri had her heart attack. He was awarded $700,000. $300,000 was for Michael and the rest went into trust for Terri's care. Terri was also awarded $250,000. The reports say there is only $50,000 left of the money for Terri. Terri's parents have asked Michael all along to let them be guardians of Terri and to take care of her for the rest of her life but he has steadfastly refused to do so even though he had a new interest - he has lived with his girlfriend for several years and they have two children. Outside the hospice one gentleman offered Michael $1,000,000.00 to let Terri live by allowing her to have liquids and nutrition, some others offered him thousands of dollars to let Terri live by allowing Terri to have liquids and nutrition. He refused all offers. He didn't even want her to have communion but at 3:00 p.m. on Sunday the priest finally had Michael's permission to give her just one tiny drop of the grape juice on her tongue. She couldn't have even a crumb of the wafer because her tongue was too dry. I think everyone's objections are about the lack of liquids and nutrition. It's all really a sad situation but thankfully now she's with the Lord. We need to continue to pray for her family.

The autopsy will end up telling the truth of whether or not she was actually in a complete vegetative state or not. A Dr. from Mayo Clinic stated that Terri was not in a total vegetative state and that she could understand what was going on around her. Anyway at least we know Terri safely home with the Lord and she is in complete peace!

I want to add that I'm very much against euthanasia and mercy killings - it is so wrong.

In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by LaurieFL (Member # 3794) on :
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being angry about such a horrible thing happening. The Bible says to be angry and do not sin. It is not wrong to be angry with just cause. This thing that happened was horrifying.

I totally agree that there is a huge difference between removing a respirator so that a person would die in moments because they cannot even breathe on their own and causing someonet o die from dehydration and starvation, one of the most painful ways to die documented apparently. The Bible says if it is within our power to do someone good, we should not withhold it. Letting a person's lips and tongue crack and bleed due to no water seems like withholding good to me.

I too pray for her husband, but I pray that he repents of his sin. He wished his wife dead and fought for her death which I am pretty sure equates to murder in the eyes of God. God is merciful and forgives, but only where there is true repentance. Otherwise, He is a righteous and wrathful God, and a price must be paid for sins if the price Christ paid is not accepted.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
In order for anyone to have forgiveness and mercy they must first repent of all sins, ask for mercy and forgiveness of their sins, accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and then follow Jesus Christ.

The people outside the hospice were objecting to Terri being deprived of liquids and nutrition. That is not being misdirected. That is showing love, compassion, and empathy! Jesus Christ would not want anyone being deprived that way.

Anyway we need to continue to pray for Terri's family and others.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by LaurieFL (Member # 3794) on :
 
All excellent verses, and I am not sure at all how you think they apply here I think we all are angry over a cruelty done to a helpless woman and are praying not only for her family but also in love for her husband, who is certainly not my enemy nor is he yours unless you are involved in all this somehow.

The fact that Jesus and Stephen prayed for their persecutors is a marvelous example and one that we should all follow. I pray for God's mercy on Michael Schiavo, but I do know that my Bible tells me that if he does not repent, he shall not receive forgiveness.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Michael Schiavo will have to repent of all his sins, ask for mercy and forgiveness, accept Jesus Christ into his heart and then follow Jesus Christ the same as all non-believers who become born again believers.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Michael has already planned that Terri's ashes will be buried at an undisclosed location in PA and her parents will not be told of that location because Michael is doesn't want any media to show up.

Where is his heart, love, compassion, empathy for anyone else other than himself. It's indeed a sickning situation.

Terri's family are planning to have services held without Terri's being there.

We pray for Terri's family and others.

In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
If thats true about an undisclosed location of Terris remains so that not even her parents could go pay respects, then all I can say is this man is heartless.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Yashway,

Yes this is quite true. If you go to favorminded.com and click on the yahoo news story about Terri a page will come up that has two links for you to click on and you can read the news stories for yourself.

Yes it's very true that if Michael continues to persist in having Terri's ashes buried at an undisclosed location then her family cannot pay their respects. Michael is showing a very controlling and heartless nature - as to why no one really knows other than our Heavenly Father and Michael.

We continue to pray for Terri's family.

In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Thanks GrmaJo, I too will continue to pray for all the family and also pray for Michael, but some of you will need to pray for me cause this does make me soooooo angry. Shalom
 

---

Posted by Cricket (Member # 2960) on :
 
This whole case is sickening. No one ever thinks they will be in the predicament that Terri was in. Unfortunately, we have all learned a lesson at Terri's expense. Please put in writing what your wishes are if you are ever in this position. Do you want to be fed through a tube? Do you want to be kept on a ventillator? Also, who do you want in charge of you if this ever happens.

What would it have hurt for Michael to let Terri's parents take charge? Nothing - except he wouldn't have access to the money. Also, he isn't "free" - he is tied down to Terri. I believe he is openly living with another woman if the accounts are true.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Yes I agree, Cricket. Everyone should have their wishes put in writing and it should be very specific.

As for Michael he has lived with his girl friend for several years and they have two children. That's why Terri's parents asked him to please let them take Terri to their home and care for her for the rest of her life rather than Terri being in hospice. However he refused.

We can all be very thankful that Terri is now with the Lord and is in peace and rest.

We all prayed for her and her family and our prayers continue to be for her family in this time of their loss.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Cricket (Member # 2960) on :
 
So sad. I just read in my local paper that Michael is not allowing Terri's immediate family access to her funeral. I guess she is being cremated and her ashes scattered. Regardless of the legal battle these are still her parents and siblings. They should be allowed access.
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
It is hard to believe he has control over her body when he is living with another woman and has two children by this woman.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Yes it is definitely difficult to believe that Michael Schiavo should have control over Terri Schiavo's body and the the arrangements after her autopsy especially in view of his living with another woman and has been for several years. They have two children. I just read a news story on favorminded's site and according to the report the judge ruled that Michael has to reveal where Terri's ashes are to be buried but the judge did not rule when Michael has to reveal where the location is so it seems Michael will not do so until after the burial. Michael seems as though he wants total control and will continue to do so which is really sad.

We continue to pray for Terri's family.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Any rights related to Terry he had by law should have been revoked the second he became an adulterer. JMHO of course.

God bless.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Ripp,

Amen! He could have relinquished control over Terri and it's sad that he did not do so for he has not acted in her best interests at all.

We continue to pray for her family.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Gramajo320,

In an earlier post on this thread, you said:

"We can all be very thankful that Terri is now with the Lord and is in peace and rest."

Do we know this for sure? I have been wondering for a while if she was a believer, but could never find confirmation one way or another.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Hardcore,

In answer to your question I do not know of any confirmation one way or the other.

It was reported in a news report that Terri was raised as a catholic and attended catholic schools
and she attended the catholic church. There are many born again catholic believers and I do believe that the Lord had His own perfect plan for Terri and that she is now with the Lord.

In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
It is very sad but so indicative of the evil which is infiltrating across our land. I hope that Terri had a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, and not just trusting in having the priest bestow Him upon her at baptism, and receiving justification solely through the sacraments of the RCC. It is receiving Christ into our hearts of our own volition which is salvation.

It is so very sad and I weep for her family who were denied access: to care for her with love, to be with her when she took her last breath, to gather as she is laid to rest, to even place flowers on her grave. This situation is anathema.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
The news report did not specify if it was the RCC or a charismatic catholic church. We all pray that she was a born again believer and I believe she was.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
I hope that she was a believer as well.

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding what you're (Gramajo320) basing your opinion on - the opinion that she was a believer. You said yourself you had no confirmation, so we can't assume one way or the other.

Being raised catholic, going to catholic schools and attending catholic services, do not qualify one for heaven; not by a long shot. I'm certainly not saying that there aren't saved catholics, but unfortunately, there are a lot of them that aren't.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Hardcore,

There most assuredly are millions upon millions of born again believers who are catholics. I firmly believe that Terri was a born again believer!

I don't understand why some people choose to be so negative about catholics!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a21.htm


Are Catholics Christian?

Question Are Catholics Christians? If not, why? This is not a negative question. I desire to honestly know if Catholics are considered to be part of the Christian faith.

Answer This is a most important question anybody can ask. Am I a Christian? Or am I a Christian in name only? Do I have a living relationship with Christ?

Well then, who has the right to call himself Christian? Like the Jews of old, people still fool themselves in thinking that they are right with God because of some ritual (like circumcision or baptism) or because of their heritage ("I was born into a Christian family and attend a Christian church").

According to the Bible, a true Christian is chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed and forgiven by the blood of Christ, illuminated by the Spirit, knows and obeys the truth of the Gospel. A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for his salvation, and gives all praise to God for His grace. (Please read Ephesians 1:3-13).

Does a Roman Catholic fit this description? Superficially he does. He believes in Christ and speaks about the grace of God. But if he follows the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, regretfully I must say that he does not really believe in Christ nor does he know the grace of God. Please allow me to explain.

The Gospel teaches that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28). God regards a person just and righteous who trusts wholeheartedly in Jesus, and who does not attempt to win God's favour by his imperfect obedience of the Law. Sadly, Roman theology has rejected God's way of salvation. To faith, Rome adds a set of deeds (many of which are human inventions) and curses anyone who dares to completely trust in Christ alone for salvation. 'If anyone says that the faith that justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.' (Council of Trent, session 6, cannon 12).

We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.

Again, we assert that we are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). The Bible clearly defines what grace is: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Romans 4:4) Grace is unmerited favour, as opposed to the merit of works. Rome outwardly teaches that we are justified by grace. However the "grace" of Catholicism is a very strange species. The Catholic Church states that "we can then merit for ourselves...the graces needed...for the attainment of eternal life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2010). To merit grace is a contradiction in terms. Rome would not allow you to receive the gift of salvation with a grateful heart, but would have you work like a slave to merit it.

We are forced to conclude that the message of Rome is a different gospel. It is a false gospel. I say this with much sadness and concern for the multitudes of Catholics who blindly follow this false system. I must warn every Catholic that Christ is of no avail to you unless you relinquish any confidence in yourself and your works, and in every other creature. Faith must be in Christ - alone!

Having said that, I gladly add the following caveat. There may be some nominal Catholics who, either out of ignorance or willful rejection of Catholic doctrine, truly trust in Christ alone for their salvation. They are Christians and really belong to God.

The book of Revelation describes a deceptive and false religious system named Babylon. It is not my intention here to discuss the exact nature of this Babylon - the principle remains the same. Some Christians are trapped inside this deceptive system and God gives them a specific command: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). Thank God that even in Babylon, God has His people. If you are a Christian entrapped in the false religious system of Rome, hear God's calling and come out of her. You will experience liberty and life like never before.

Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi, 2004. Permission given by author to copy this article without changes. < BACK TO Q&A
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
I'm not saying, nor did I, that there aren't saved catholics. Millions upon millions as you say? Maybe. Maybe not. I pray that you are right.

However, just because someone is catholic (including Terri), does not necessarily mean they are a born again believer. That seemed to be, and still does seem to be, what you are implying. Catholicism does NOT equal salvation.

I can't speak for others, but I don't believe I'm being negative about catholics. I would never judge an individual's heart, but catholic doctrine is another issue, and I would judge an individual's doctrine - against scripture!

Catholicism is guilty of serious doctrinal error, idol worship, changing scripture, ignoring scripture and false teaching to name a few. Is it not reasonable to assume then, that there might be many within the church who are being led into a false sense of security regarding their salvation?

I personally know believers who came out of the catholic church and will testify to the fact that they were not saved until they left. I also know many un-saved catholics.

I'm sorry gramajo. I'm not trying to be negative, just honest. Defending a corrupt religious institution doesn't benefit anyone, especially the lost, whether they be in the catholic church or not.
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Caretaker - Amen!

Thank you for posting that article. It was concise and to the point.

I know it's not a popular stance, but we either stand against false teaching or we don't. Catholicism has escaped under the radar for far too long because of the fear of offending.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Amen Sister Hardcore!

The Believer is justified solely and totally through faith in Christ alone.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that one cannot be justified solely by faith alone in Christ. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that one receives justification through the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church, and that they are necessary for salvation.

Canons of the Council of Trent:

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).

3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
.
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
•
Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
•
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).

• Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.


Catholic Cathechism:


1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation .51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Hardcore,

There is a world of difference between the charismatic catholics and the RCC catholics a fact that people who are so negative about catholics refuse to recognize. Charismatic catholics are born again believer just the same as you, I, or anyone else is! Anyway our Heavenly Father is the ONLY ONE who knows the hearts of every single person living on this earth, a fact that everyone should always remember!

Now it's important to just focus on Jesus Christ!


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Gramajo ...

I am not negative about catholics, I am negative about their doctrine. There is a difference.

You are right. It is important to focus on Jesus Christ - not Mary, and not the pope.

I also agree that our Lord is the only one who knows individual hearts. I have never implied nor stated otherwise. I commented on catholic doctrine, not any individual. Both of Caretaker's most recent posts give excellent examples of serious doctrinal issues within catholicism. Surely you can see this and are not suggesting that this doctrine is acceptable. It is not.

I fully admit that I am not familiar with the differences between charismatic catholics and other catholics. Regardless, I don't think you can flatly state or assume that charismatic catholics are born again believers any more than you could make that statement about any denomination. Salvation is unto each individual and has nothing to do with which church they attend.

Can you explain the difference between the charismatic catholics and the traditional RCC? Or point me to a website that does? You have peaked my curiosity.
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
When it is all said and done, it is going to be more important what your relationship is with Christ than what Church you sit in on Sunday morning.
Can a Catholic go to hell? you bet. Just like a Baptist, or Church of Christ, or an Assembly of God person who does not have a personal relationship with Jesus as their Savior and Lord.
Whose job is it to decide who is and who ain't?
Why Jesus of course. He sure doesn't need me to tell who is right and who ain't.
---------------------

I am sure glad my English teacher from 8th grade ain't here to see this. She made me write I will not say ain't all the time. The last time was 500 times. As you can see, it worked real well.
 

---

Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Watching the praying last night gave me indegestion. Mother this, Mary that. Aye karumba! What about Jesus!! Oh well, God and Jesus were talked about on many occasions so I guess we can take the bad with the good eh?

You guys are right though, the mother Mary doctrine is disturbing. That doctrine is starting to infiltrate the mainline Christian churches here in America as well. I posted an article about it on my site a month or so ago. I'd grab it if I knew how far back it was hehe.

Oh well, at least God is being mentioned with the Popes' passing. Maybe many will come to realize the need for a Savior out of all of this. Only time will tell.

God bless.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Hardcore,

The charismatic catholics who have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and follow Jesus Christ are known as born again believers just the same as any one else of any other religion or denomination who repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and follow Jesus Christ. Thankfully our Heavenly Father knows what is in each person's heart and He loves them!

I've certainly not stated at any time whatsoever that any one becomes a born again believer just by going to church nor do I think so! I don't know where that idea comes from!

As for a website where you can read about the doctrinal differences between the charismatic catholics and the RCC I shall find out for you and let you know as soon as I know.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 
Ahh, found it.


Mohler wary of Protestant elevation of Mary in Time article

quote:

---

The article describes a recent trend within Protestant scholarship and church life of elevating Mary as a model of Christian devotion who is deserving of more attention.

Mohler acknowledges that evangelicals must look to Scripture as they consider Mary. But he cautions against singling her out as a mediator between God and man or an elevated model of Christian devotion.

...

Protestants’ renewed interest in Mary is further evidenced by cover stories in both Christianity Today and Christian Century, the Time article says.

...

The Time article relates stories of several Protestant churches that have devoted sermons and Bible studies to Mary, such as Westminster Presbyterian Church in Xenia, Ohio, where Pastor Brian Maguire teaches classes on Mary and plans to bring Mary into his Good Friday sermon.

---

Yikes, scary stuff.
 

---

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
okay, it 8:45pm and I am watching fox news with Shepherd Smith. he is talking to a man who claims to be a charasmatic catholic. he just said that everyone, be you buddist,jewish, christian or whatever were all going to heaven.

He said Jesus died for the whole world and since he did all were going to heaven. does anyone else hear what this man is saying? He says it does not matter what religon you practice cause Jesus paid it all and He loves you and your going to heaven.

Noe correct me if im wrong, but I thought scripture said only those who are born again and who profess Jesus as the truth not buddah!
 

---

Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by yahsway:
okay, it 8:45pm and I am watching fox news with Shepherd Smith. he is talking to a man who claims to be a charasmatic catholic. he just said that everyone, be you buddist,jewish, christian or whatever were all going to heaven.

He said Jesus died for the whole world and since he did all were going to heaven. does anyone else hear what this man is saying? He says it does not matter what religon you practice cause Jesus paid it all and He loves you and your going to heaven.

Noe correct me if im wrong, but I thought scripture said only those who are born again and who profess Jesus as the truth not buddah!

---

You are correct. Universal salvation has been gaining ground as a false teaching. It's disturbing but it's going to continue to grow as well as all the other false teachings. It's a time of confusion for a lot of people. I imagine a lot of people just tune out because there is so much noise.

God bless.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Charismatic catholics who repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and follow Jesus Christ are born again believers just the same as any one else who repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and follows Jesus Christ are born again believers!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world he gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not perish but may have eternal life.


In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by Ripp (Member # 3832) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Charismatic catholics who repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and follow Jesus Christ are born again believers just the same as any one else who repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and follows Jesus Christ are born again believers!


n Christ's love,
Gramajo320

---

Absolutely!

God bless.
 

---

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Amen Gramajo, I agree, but the teaching that man was teaching is false.
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Gramajo ...

"The charismatic catholics who have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and follow Jesus Christ are known as born again believers just the same as any one else of any other religion or denomination who repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and follow Jesus Christ. Thankfully our Heavenly Father knows what is in each person's heart and He loves them!"

I wholeheartedly agree with you!

"I've certainly not stated at any time whatsoever that any one becomes a born again believer just by going to church nor do I think so! I don't know where that idea comes from!"

I didn't quite mean that, but it did seem like you were assuming that Terri (and other catholics) were saved because they grew up in the catholic church. Chalk it up to my misinterpretation and failed communication skills. Please forgive.

"As for a website where you can read about the doctrinal differences between the charismatic catholics and the RCC I shall find out for you and let you know as soon as I know."

Thanks! I can research it myself also, I just thought you might be familiar with a reputable site.
 

---

Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 3772) on :
 
Yashway , there is the very distinct possibility the man just did not take the time to explain exactly and more thoroughly what he meant. A lot of people have difficulty doing that. I do know charismatic born again believers and they became born again believers by repenting of their sins, accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, and following Jesus Christ just the same as any other born again believer has done.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not perish but may have eternal life.

In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
My question then becomes:

Do they follow Jesus Christ alone? Or Jesus Christ plus Mary, plus the pope, plus heretical catholic teaching?
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramajo320:
Yashway , there is the very distinct possibility the man just did not take the time to explain exactly and more thoroughly what he meant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by yahsway:
okay, it 8:45pm and I am watching fox news with Shepherd Smith. he is talking to a man who claims to be a charasmatic catholic. he just said that everyone, be you buddist,jewish, christian or whatever were all going to heaven.

He said Jesus died for the whole world and since he did all were going to heaven.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:
Some people just will not face the truth Soft Touch. Maddening, isn't it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoftTouch:
GramaJo

I don't even know why I'm trying to explain this AGAIN, but here we go... One More Time....

NO ONE is Judging PEOPLE (Catholic - Charismatic - Baptist - whatever). What is being spoken Against IS False Doctrine! Not People.

YES there WILL BE Catholics in Heaven! There Will Be people from the majority of denominations (I can't say all because I don't know what 'all' would be comprised of). Of this I have No Doubt. Regarding the Catholics, Those who see the Error of the teachings of the Vatican and trust SOLEY in the Finished Work of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection Will Be In Heaven. Would that keep me from going in? Of Course Not! I REJOICE at those who see through the False Doctrine and place their Faith Squarely and Soley in Jesus and not sacraments, Mary, or anything else!

People Are Not Being Judged... Teaching/Doctrine IS.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Isn't it wonderful that even those on this board may make it to heaven IN SPITE of their doctrines that may be false, and they just don't know it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoftTouch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Isn't it wonderful that even those on this board may make it to heaven IN SPITE of their doctrines that may be false, and they just don't know it.

---

Ummm? Could you clarify what you mean by this? I don't want to misunderstand what you're trying to say. Thanks!

---