|
Author
|
Topic: The gift of the Holy Ghost
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
I agree with you to a certain extent Wild B........until that same unregenerated man has been exposed to the Word. Once man has heard the good news he has a choice to make......repent, or continue on in unbelief and rebellion. The Word does not make a man repent but the Word does compel a man to repent by the love of its truth and its ability to dig deep into the soul and divide between the soul and spirit.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Wild B,
I have considered your argument. It appears, correct me if I am wrong, that you were using the example that you used, to prove that a man need not repent, believe in Jesus, and commit to be a disciple of Jesus before receiving the Holy Ghost.
A unregenerated man may not posses the fortitude or will power to fully repent or follow Christ, but yet have a Godly sorrow for his sins.
Isa.42
[3] A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench:
But what says the text,
Rom.10
[i] [8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
No works involved.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
 1 Corinthians 13 (NRSV)
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
And Love is a Fruit not a work.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
1 Corinthians 13 (NRSV)
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Carol,
The reason why my heart is so hard-pressed on this issue is because when I reflect on my past.........I grew up a believer. I was raised and confirmed lutheran. I have believed in God since I was a young kid.........but for several years I had no cares for the will of God. While I believed all the things that I believed about Jesus and all, it was only part of my life......not my whole reason for living. In 1995 God brought a man into my life who rendered to me a real wake-up call.
Today I see people all around me that remind me of that person that I was. I want to be able to reach out to them with gospel truth. Its not that easy to express to them the truth of the Gift of God with the hard reality of repentance and committing our lives to Christ. Its a real challenge.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
My friend in the Lord I do agree with your post. If I were to show how I believe it compares to the likes of what I said in my initial post on this subject............
Appropriation=the heart saying "Yes Jesus, I will follow You and be your disciple"......surrendering to His Lordship
In everything I have said, the emphasis is on the heart response that I believe that we need to have towards God/Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Remember what Faith is.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Carol,
You stated that the only condition for receiving the Holy Ghost is to believe in Jesus.
I am assuming that you are suggesting that I am creating two more false conditions.....namely....
repentance, and committing to be a disciple of Jesus. It then also appears that you are taking and classifying "repentance" and "committment to discipleship" as "sanctification" by the Holy Ghost. Repentance and committment are faith responses towards God, and sanctification is Gods helping us become more like His Son......there is a subtle diffence, dont you think?
Think about this for a moment...............
Would God give the Holy Spirit to a man who refuses to turn from his sin? I mean wouldnt that be like God endorsing sin?
and
Would God give the Holy Spirit to a man who will not subject himself to the teachings and commands of Jesus? I mean wouldnt that be like God endorsing rebellion toward His Son. I believe that(in the days of the Apostles)the new believers that came foward to be baptized knew full well that even though there was the gracious gift of forgiveness being offered to them that there also was the inescapeable reality that becoming a disciple of Jesus could be hazardous to their lives (in a physical sense). I am sure this was no secret.
Carol, I am human and I understand human fear. There is no one that can convince me that there were not many men in the past who liked the message of forgiveness of sin, but turned the other direction when hearing of the prospect of losing their life.....or of having to leave everything behind...........
Committing to discipleship means that we have considered that prospect and we have counted Jesus worthy. I am afraid that if we dont count Jesus worthy, God will not count us worthy of His good gifts.
In my final closing statement, I contend that "believing in Jesus" includes believing in His message of repentance and His message of discipleship.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Yes, God knows our hearts. We must believe in our hearts.
There are many unbelievers who are "nice" people and live "good" lives, but they don't believe in Jesus Christ. And there are many professing Christians who say and do the right things, but they don't really believe in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 - 14 (NLT)
13And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.
We must believe in Christ.
Titus 3:3 - 7 (NLT)
3Once we, too, were foolish and disobedient. We were misled and became slaves to many lusts and pleasures. Our lives were full of evil and envy, and we hated each other.
4But—“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, 5he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. 6He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7Because of his grace he declared us righteous and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life.”
Sanctification occurs after we receive the Holy Spirit, not before.
It wouldn't be correct to say we must do anything more than believe in Christ in order to receive His Holy Spirit.
I wonder, though, if a person will care that Jesus died for his sins if he doesn't see himself as a sinner in need of a Savior?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Carol,
Now is that all that accurate? Was Cornelius not doing anything when He prayed to God? The bible called Cornelius "devout". This sounds like a God fearing and God loving person to me. He was also assumably repentant, and a man of faith. He just had not known of Jesus yet.
I understand that none of us can put a leash around God........but it is incorrect to say that Cornelius(the gentile) did nothing before the Holy Ghost fell on him and his band?
Maybe it would be more accurate to say the Holy Ghost does or will not fall on anyone who is or will not be receptive to the Word of God. That would include Paul the apostle then too. Of course God is the only one who would know ahead of time who will be receptive. After all, He is God.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
oneinChrist
You said
quote:
I do not believe that we receive the Holy Ghost unless--------
WildB pointed out that the first Gentiles did not do anything. They were just listening to Peter, and before he even finished speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on them.
God made the Samaritans wait for the Holy Spirit until Peter and John arrived. (Because of the historical conflict between these two groups, it would be crucial to have an apostolic presence for this significant event. The presence of apostles, especially two with such a high profile—Peter and John—would give unquestionable credibility to the Samaritan spiritual movement).
God works according to His own wisdom. He doesn't follow a step-by-step procedure. We can't put Him into a nice neat package that we understand and control.
Jesus was full of surprises during His earthly ministry.
He still is!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Peter’s sermon was interrupted (even as Peter was saying these things) by the Holy Spirit, who fell upon all who had heard the message. Luke recorded the original Pentecost in chapter 2. Chapter 8 told of the “Samaritan Pentecost.” This event could be called the “Gentile Pentecost.” The Spirit came upon all those in attendance.
Unlike the Samaritan believers who had waited between belief and the baptism of the Spirit, which had come by the laying on of apostolic hands (see 8:17-18), the Spirit fell on these Gentile believers, just as he had at the first Pentecost—no laying on of hands, no praying for the Spirit to fall; God just did it!
They heard, they believed, they received! Faith.
Acts 10:47
Then Peter asked, “Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?” (NLT)
In this case the believers were baptized after they received the Holy Spirit, publicly declaring their allegiance to Christ and identification with the Christian community. Peter’s words (received the Holy Spirit just as we did) reveal the impressiveness of what they had just seen.
It was undeniable, irrefutable evidence that God had come to the Gentiles. They were now full-fledged, Spirit-indwelled members of the body of Christ. No human opinion, apostolic or otherwise, could change that.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi again Wild B,
I have considered your argument. It appears, correct me if I am wrong, that you were using the example that you used, to prove that a man need not repent, believe in Jesus, and commit to be a disciple of Jesus before receiving the Holy Ghost.
In the example that you gave we have Cornelius, who was a man who loved God and sought out His will with all of his heart. His prayers were brought before God and God decided to answer them by calling on Peter to bring the Word of truth. Cornelius had not yet known about Jesus.
Now the point in time at which Cornelius' household received the Holy Ghost was after they had heard the word.
I am going to make an assumption, but I believe a safe assumption. God had foreknew that Cornelius and his household would receive the news with all acceptance and be firmly persuaded of it....no qualms about becoming a disciple of Jesus. Therefore the Holy Ghost fell on gentiles who were open to hear the gospel and who were ready to obey the words of instruction.
The Jews were not surprised because they thought that the gentiles received the Holy ghost without repentance, faith, and a committment to follow Christ............Rather the Jews were surprised because God was pouring out the gift of the Holy Ghost unto the gentiles also.
Wild B, I do not understand how you say that scripture contradicts what I have stated in my initial post...........
Are we not all called to repentance?, are we not all called to believe on Jesus as Savior?and...are we not all called to be a disciple of Jesus?
Can we be forgiven without repentance?
Can we come into Gods presence without a savior?
Can we be discipled without putting ourselves in subjection to Jesus' teachings and commands?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Carol,
My friend in the Lord I do agree with your post. If I were to show how I believe it compares to the likes of what I said in my initial post on this subject............
Appropriation=the heart saying "Yes Jesus, I will follow You and be your disciple"......surrendering to His Lordship
In everything I have said, the emphasis is on the heart response that I believe that we need to have towards God/Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
To believe is 'to know'! If you take the lid off of a jar of mayonaise, you 'know' what is inside. Faith is like that! But in the case of Jesus, we do not fully know what we are believing in when we start out; but the faith of Jesus meets us. For HE believes in Himself, and HE meets us with 'what we need to know about Him'. We initiate it by simple, starter faith, because we believe in who HE is, and HE fills it. This is called the faith 'of' Jesus. The 'of' implies 'from' Him.
But we know! To believe is to know so that you are not guessing who HE is or what HE does. This can be summed up with the scripture:
- Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
And to 'know' is to have.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
So, I am curious, what does it mean to you to BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS? Is it just a mental acknowledgement of Him? I can tell you that if you look up the word "believe" in a bible dictionary it is going to state that it is more than a mental assent to the truth(when referring to believing in God)
We must believe with the heart.
The heart, in the Scriptures, means the whole man—intellect, sensibilities, and will. “As a man thinketh in his heart.”
FAITH WHEN USED IN CONNECTION WITH THE PERSON AND WORK OF CHRIST
There are three elements in faith.
First, there must be a knowledge of the claims of Christ as to His person and mission in the world: As to His person—that He is Deity, John 9:35-38; 10:30; Phil. 2:6-11. As to His work—Matt. 20:28; 26:26-28; Luke 24:27, 44.
Second, there must be an assent to all these claims, John 16:30; 20:28; Matt. 16:16; John 6:68, 69.
Third, there must be a personal appropriation of Christ as being all that He claims to be, John 1:12; 8:21, 24; 5:24. There must be surrender to a person, and not mere faith in a creed. Faith in a doctrine must lead to faith in a person, and that person Jesus Christ.
Faith always has in it the idea of action—movement towards its object. It is the soul leaping forth to embrace and appropriate the Christ in whom it believes. It first says: “My Lord and my God,” and then falls down and worships.
It is such faith—consisting of knowledge, assent, and appropriation—that saves.
This is believing with the heart (Rom. 10:9, 10).
(The Great Doctrines Of The Bible)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
everything in moderation, and variety makes for a happy life. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hey Eden,
You forgot to add that little happy face guy that is sitting at his computer.
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
oneinchrist wrote quote:
EDEN, you must have your bible concordance right next to you, I know that you didnt just think of that verse that quick on your own...LOL
I do have www.biblesearch.com open when I'm on this BBS, but I have to tell you that the Holy Spirit brought that verse up from my very own internal "computer memory". ("well, ain't you something now")
be blessed,
Eden
"we have to put it in there before the Holy Spirit can 'do a search'"
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Ive got to start using those little happy face characters.........EDEN, you must have your bible concordance right next to you, I know that you didnt just think of that verse that quick on your own...LOL
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Genesis 21:6
Then Sarah said, God has made me to laugh, so that all who hear will laugh with me.
Eden ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
LOL Eden,
One thing I do enjoy about your posts is that you are not afraid to have a sense of humor. We do need to laugh together too.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
oneinchrist wrote quote:
FAITH. A proper definition of faith must take into consideration its complexity, for while the exercise of it may be said to be simplicity itself, it involves the whole personality. Knowledge is necessary (Rom 10:13-17). However, while intellectual grasp of the truth to be believed is not faith, it is part of it. Assent to the truth to be believed is necessary (Mt 9:28; Jas 2:19); however, assent may be no more than admitting the veracity of the thing to be believed, without carrying any committal with it. The element without which we do not have biblical faith, is the consent of the volition, or "the consent of the will to the assent of the understanding" (cf. Jn 8:30-31,ASV).
While faith itself is probably simplicity itself, the above definiton of faith is definitely complex and requires a college education! LOL
Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Wycliff Bible Dictionary
FAITH. A proper definition of faith must take into consideration its complexity, for while the exercise of it may be said to be simplicity itself, it involves the whole personality. Knowledge is necessary (Rom 10:13-17). However, while intellectual grasp of the truth to be believed is not faith, it is part of it. Assent to the truth to be believed is necessary (Mt 9:28; Jas 2:19); however, assent may be no more than admitting the veracity of the thing to be believed, without carrying any committal with it. The element without which we do not have biblical faith, is the consent of the volition, or "the consent of the will to the assent of the understanding" (cf. Jn 8:30-31,ASV).
John 8:30-31 reads
30 As He spake these words, many believed on Him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Wild B
Let me highlight WHO BELIEVED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
--Didnt Jesus preach repentance?
--Didnt Jesus preach that He is the way, the truth, and the life?(SAVIOR) ....and....
--Didnt Jesus preach that we must be His follower/disciple and that we must not allow any worldly things to come between us and Him?(LORDSHIP COMMITMENT)
So, I am curious, what does it mean to you to BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS? Is it just a mental acknowledgement of Him? I can tell you that if you look up the word "believe" in a bible dictionary it is going to state that it is more than a mental assent to the truth(when referring to believing in God)
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Upon studying the bible I have come to this conclusion......
I do not believe that we receive the Holy Ghost unless--------
--we have repented ......by changing our attitude towards sin in light of the suffering and death of Jesus.......and by turning from a position of rebellion to God and turning to God and His will.(ALL MEN EVERYWHERE ARE COMMANDED TO REPENT)
--we have personally accepted Gods sacrifice of His Son as full payment for our sin (SAVIOR)
--we have committed our lives to becoming a disciple of Jesus; putting ourselves in subjection to His teachings and commands(LORDSHIP)
Does anyone disagee?
With love in Christ, Daniel
The Bible.
Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:17
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Upon studying the bible I have come to this conclusion......
I do not believe that we receive the Holy Ghost unless--------
--we have repented ......by changing our attitude towards sin in light of the suffering and death of Jesus.......and by turning from a position of rebellion to God and turning to God and His will.(ALL MEN EVERYWHERE ARE COMMANDED TO REPENT)
--we have personally accepted Gods sacrifice of His Son as full payment for our sin (SAVIOR)
--we have committed our lives to becoming a disciple of Jesus; putting ourselves in subjection to His teachings and commands(LORDSHIP)
Does anyone disagee?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
