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Topic: Eternity and time...
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TB125
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posted
ikester7579 has an excellent understanding of God's creation, but it takes more than that to overcome the "foolishness" of most pagan atheists, agnostics, and humanists.
Paul indicates that God's initial and primary act of revelation was done when he created everything that "has been made", which demonstrated and continuously shows his "eternal power" and "divine nature" (Rom 1:19-20). This revelation was given to enable mankind, his supreme creation, to glorify him with their praise of thanksgiving and service. But too many of our ancestors and us haven't done this. Instead we have dismissed God's revelation, rebelled against his will, and created idols and images by our own hands for our rituals of worship (Rom 1:21-23).
Some knowledge and understanding of God's creation may be useful in apologetic discussions with some non-believers, but it can't always overcome their "futile" thinking and "foolish hearts" (Rom 1:21). Only the power of the Holy Spirit can do this. Let us not get lost in the details of God's creation.
We need to be humble witnesses of God's glory in Jesus Christ, articulate evangelists (messengers of "good news") to a world of people who are confused by "foolish" thinking and blinded by the "darkness" of their sinful rebellion. I pray this message board and its topics can be beacons of light to break through the "darkness" and that our messages will reflect the wisdom of God's truth and not our own arrogant thoughts. May God continue to lead us all in this ministry.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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ikester7579
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Does God warn us about looking into only temporal evidence about His creation?
deut 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
Evolutionists basically believe all life came from the minerals and amino acids that erroded from rock into the primordial soup, after millions of years of rain upon the rocks. So when God speaks of the rock, in the verse above. He is referring to those who would rather look to this rock instead of Him.
And what will God say when these people stand before Him?
deut 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
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ikester7579
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When the second light (sun) was created, the second time scale was created also.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
So how did light get to earth from the furtherest star in 6,000 years?
Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Where the answer is hidden here is where questions need to be asked:
1) Why would God say: To give light upon the earth, when light was already being produced by the object?
It was because it was not shining upon the earth upon it's creation. And it is confirmed in the next part of this verse.
2) Why would God say: "And it was so", unless it was not so?
"And it was so" means it was not so until God made it so. So here we see that God is saying that the physical laws He created would not allow light to shine upon the earth. So He had to make it so.
Simple answer to what seemed a hard question to answer. So why do so many miss this? We try to make the word of God conform to the world and forget who created it.
How can the earth time date to 4.3 million years old, and be just 6,000 years old?
ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth : and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
If you lay a foudation that is old, what have you actually done? You have made a new object with old material. How else can a foundation be laid that is old?
This explains how the earth can date 4.3 billion years old, but yet be only 6,000 years old. How?
There is a difference between age and time. This is controlled through the Creator. God created both man and woman with age, but without passage of time. He created the animals ready to multiply upon creation, and told them to do exactly that. Life is more complicated than a rock that floats in space. So to create a planet with an old foundation is within the Creators power to do so.
So are dating methods wrong?
No, they just prove God's power to do what He did. And because we often separate that power from His creation. We often end up without a answer when asked about this.
Does this make God a deciever?
Age without time is beyond our grasp to understand. So the confusion of deception is in the minds of those who refuse to give God His full power to create, and would rather put limitations upon Him. For those who would like to do this, I only have two questions:
1) If God has limitation in the creation, could you show us what they are?
2) If God has limitations in creation, can they be backed up in His word?
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ikester7579
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Eternity is to experience existence without any measurement of its duration. If you remove the rotation of the earth from your experience, the experience of days is gone. If you remove the orbit of the earth around the sun, the experience of years is gone. When you remove every means of measurement for any duration of experience, you are left with eternity. God always exists in a sphere that is without any measurement of its duration. Our experience in this world is subject to specific measurements of its duration in accord with the rotation of the earth and its orbit around the sun. When we are no longer subject to these measurements, we will experience eternity.
Our mission as Christians is to help individuals understand that they were created by God for an eternal relationship with Him, but that this relationship has been broken by their sin. It can only be restored by accepting God's gift of grace and renewal in Jesus. Let's be clear about these matters.
I agree. You understand a lot about time and eternity that most people don't. And if you apply what you just commented on to creation, you will find a lot of questions answered like I did.
Example:
1) Because God created time (In the begining) before anything else. The earth upon it's creation, was already in rotation.
2) So when the first light was divided, the first day was in motion because of this rotation.
Creation of time made everything that is used to measure time already in play upon it's creation. So where did the first light come from? We apply the spiritual side of creation to get the answer.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
The first light was spiritual light from God. And because in spiritual realm, light means good, darkness means evil. The first light created could not have darkness (produced no shadows). And is why the first light was divided but the second light was not. This is also confirmed in this verse:
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
God creating darkness within the first light (spiritual light) created also reveals when Satan's realm was created. For God cannot create spiritual darkness unless He is putting there what belongs there.
This is why light was created before the object that produces light was created. God was showing us that when He divided the first light, it not only took on a physical meaning, but a spiritual meaning as well. And this is confirmed with this verses:
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Notice the word spirit. It is used only once during creation. This was a hint to what kind of light was being created, and that what was being done would effect both sides (physical and spiritual).
So when the first light (spiritual light) was divided, it created:
1) A division between good (light) and evil (darkness).
2) Night (darkness) and day (light).
So if you've ever wondered when Satan was cast out of Heaven, there's your answer. And it fits because it puts him on earth in time to tempt Eve.
What else was created on the spiritual side during creation?
The three heavens:
1) Physical where we live.
2) Spiritual, evil where satan lives.
3) Spiritual, good where God is.
2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
The word heaven stays in singular mode until this verse:
gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
So God was working in each heaven one at a time during creation. And when He was finished, the word heavens is now used
So what other evidence is there of three heavens?
deut 10:14 Behold, the (1)heaven and the (2)heaven of (3)heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
1kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the (1)heaven and (2)heaven of (3)heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
2chron 2:6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the (1)heaven and (2)heaven of (3)heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
2chron 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, (1)heaven and the (2)heaven of (3)heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made (1)heaven, the (2)heaven of (3)heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
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TB125
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Eternity is to experience existence without any measurement of its duration. If you remove the rotation of the earth from your experience, the experience of days is gone. If you remove the orbit of the earth around the sun, the experience of years is gone. When you remove every means of measurement for any duration of experience, you are left with eternity. God always exists in a sphere that is without any measurement of its duration. Our experience in this world is subject to specific measurements of its duration in accord with the rotation of the earth and its orbit around the sun. When we are no longer subject to these measurements, we will experience eternity.
Our mission as Christians is to help individuals understand that they were created by God for an eternal relationship with Him, but that this relationship has been broken by their sin. It can only be restored by accepting God's gift of grace and renewal in Jesus. Let's be clear about these matters.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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ikester7579
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Eternity has no beginning or end, and most would agree. But time always has to have a beginning and a end. This is also why God's word start out: In the beginning.... This was when time was created for us.
So if eternity cannot have time, why not?
1) Every second has a beginning and end.
2) Every minute has a beginning and end.
3) Every hour has a beginning and end.
4) Every day has a beginning and end.
5) Every week, month and year has a beginning and end.
So how does eternity compare to this?
Is there any beginning or end in eternity?
So can things exist that have beginnings and endings where eternity is?
If so, then how could it still be eternal?
The only recorded end to eternity in heaven was when Satan was cast out of heaven, along with 1/3 of the angels. But this did not end actual eternity, it just ended where it would be spent. Because in the end, Satan will be in a eternal hell (lake of fire).
The very reason God is called the Alpha and Omega, I believe is because he created all things that have a beginning and end. The two main things would be:
1) Time.
2) Life and death.
And because God is the beginning and the end. And He created everything that had a beginning and end. Eternity does not require it. Because God has power over it. And He has already claimed to be the Alpha and Omega.
So what kind of control does God have over the beginning and end?
The book of Genesis gives us a look over His control over the beginning (creation).
The book of Revelation gives us a look over His control over the end.
So if we deny God's Alpha, we also deny His Omega. And if we deny His Omega, then we deny why there was an Alpha (beginning).
Can you have one without the other?
And can God be God with only half of what He says He is?
Example:
1) Can God be a Omega, but not an Alpha?
2) Can God be a Alpha, but not an Omega?
And some people wonder why you cannot change the beginning, or end of the word of God. Deny one half of What God is, and the rest means nothing.
I think it best explained by one preacher I often listen to. He said:
Time is like a river that flows to an end. As people get into rafts at the beginning at different times, the river allows them to flow down and reach the end according to when they got in, and how much time it takes to reach the end.
So if three people get in the river, 3 hours apart. Would they all reach the end at the same time? Of course not. But, eternity is like someone (God) being in a helicopter, and is able to observe all 3 people at the same time. Regardless of when they got into that river.
Even though He is not part of that time line (because of His eternal power) of that river. Through God's eternal power, He is able to observe each person on that river timeline regardless. And He is able to see all the choices made by each person as they go down that river timeline.
So now imagine a river that takes the same amount of time to travel, as the earth is old. All through history, everyone gets in and travels their life until they reach the end of it. God, on the other hand. Hovers above this river and watches it all. And the very reason He is able to do this is because of eternity.
I believe eternity is like a time expanse. That stretches from the beginning to end (alpha omega) and allows all who live in it. To see all in just a glance. The eternal being that lives there, does not have to travel to a time to see it. For it is all accessible to Him just because it is eternity.
This is why our life is called just a breathe. Because to a eternal being, that's how fast He can observe our life from it's beginning to end. Just a glance, and it's gone.
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