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Author
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Topic: WHATEVER HAPPENED TO OLD-FASHIONED CONVERSION
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
This have some good view it might help some...
Savior or Lord? - Savior and Lord!
Donald Norbie
“There was a new kingdom, a new loyalty, a new
sovereign to be accepted.”
PROMINENT BIBLE passages stress the gift aspect of salvation. Romans 6:23 declares:
“The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” In Ephesians 2:8-9 we read: “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Is not this reiterated time and again? And does not the closing chapter of the Bible cry out, “Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17)?
In a religious world accustomed to legalism, to rules, and to rituals as the required pathway to the Presence of God, the free nature of salvation needs stressing. Men have sinned. Men are destitute of any claim upon God's favor. The judgment of God is man's just desert. The wrath of God is his deserved lot, despite his works and his rituals.
The good news is the message that God, acting in grace, sent Christ into the world. The Savior lived a sinless life. By His teaching and miracles He demonstrated His messiahship (Acts 10:38). He willingly went to the cross where He died an agonizing death, a vicarious death for others. He was buried, rose again on the third day and was seen by many (I Corinthians 15:3-8).
The work of Christ makes possible the free offer of salvation: “Through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins. And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Acts 13:38-39). Thus the importance of stressing the gift character of salvation. It is free. There are no strings attached. You cannot work to gain it nor to keep it.
What, then, of the Lordship of Christ? Does it play any role in salvation? Some think not. In their view, you initially receive salvation gratefully as a free gift with no obligation. They would say that you accept Christ as Savior when you realize your need. Later on, you should also recognize His claims on your life as Lord.
Some would even say that to speak of Christ's Lordship confuses the issue and may get the inquirer thinking of works for salvation. To keep grace clear in the sinner's mind, they feel we should abstain from speaking of Christ's Lordship until later.
Whether we agree or disagree with that position, we may find ourselves acting as if it were correct. Consider, for instance, the tendency to make the decision for Christ easier by phrasing it as a simple formula: “Repeat this prayer after me. ‘Dear Jesus . . .’” The convert is then pointed to a Scripture verse and assured that he is now a child of God. He has received the gift with no strings attached, and perhaps with no further obligation.
Is this a simplistic approach that makes a parody of the true Gospel message? Does one take the Gift alone, or also receive the Giver? Is salvation an objective identity that can be acquired apart from entering into a new relationship with the Lord who gives it? Is it right to divorce the forgiveness of sins from the Lordship of Christ?
Let us seek to answer these questions by examining the preaching of Jesus, then that of Peter, Paul and John.
I. THE MESSAGE OF JESUS
Our Lord began His public preaching after His baptism and temptation. “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand,” He said, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15).
Mark calls this message “the gospel of the kingdom of God” (v. 14). Since Christ had not yet been crucified and raised, the content of the message was not as full as it would be after Pentecost. Nevertheless, there were essential features that were to mark the message from this time on. Faith was vital. “Believe!” But faith was not divorced from content and other mental activity. There was a new kingdom, a new loyalty, a new sovereign to be accepted. The. cry was for subjection to God's authority and control. “Repent!” “Change your thinking from rebellion to submission.” Faith was essential, but it was coupled to these other concepts which gave it virility and validity.
Later, as Jesus passed by the Sea of Galilee He saw Simon and Andrew fishing. The cry rang out, “Come ye after me and I will make you become fishers of men” (v. 17). There is a note of authority here, an invitation to further association and submission. The king offers a new direction for the fishermen's lives.
Matthew records another striking invitation: “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).
In this message of Jesus, the sin-weary and guilt-ridden were invited to receive rest - a gift. But the reception of the gift was an entrance into a new relationship described as a yoke. The ox that submits to the yoke gives up its independence and submits its will to another. The result is fruitful service. The disciples' submission is to One who is meek and lowly, gentle. “Do not be afraid,” He pleads. “Submit voluntarily to your Lord and know rest.”
The love and loyalty Jesus demands dwarf all natural loyalties. “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. And he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after me is not worthy of me” (10:37-38). This is almost a military type of loyalty. Natural relationships must be put aside, even life itself if necessary, in obedience to the king.
When Jesus left this earth to return to heaven, what were His final instructions to His disciples? “All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye, therefore, and teach (make disciples of) all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (28:18-20).
In this commission, the apostles were again reminded of His authority. He is the sovereign of the universe. They were told to make disciples, that is, to make apprentices to Jesus, men and women who would mold their lives after His.
One writer put it this way: “While the Lordship of Jesus is cosmic in scope, its center is lordship over men. . .”
The public entrance into this pathway of loyalty and obedience is by baptism, a public proclamation of a new loyalty. This in turn is followed by teaching. Secret discipleship is an anomaly. The disciple is expected to obey.
II. THE MESSAGE OF PETER
As Peter stood to preach on the day of Pentecost, it was with a keen sense of authority. The claims of Christ were presented. Jesus had been approved by miracles. God had vindicated Him through the resurrection. Now Christ is exalted, seated at God's right hand, the place of honor and power (Acts 2:22-24, 32-35). “God hath made (Him) both Lord and Christ” (v. 36).
It is a strong Christ who is so presented, a regal Christ. The mind is confronted with a choice. Either I accept Him as the risen Lord or I reject Him. The order of His titles should be noted - “Lord and Christ.” His exalted position as Sovereign is stressed.
What must the convicted crowds do? “Repent” (v. 38). Change your thinking about Christ and about your relationship to Him. This, of course will involve faith in the One you once doubted. This was to be followed by baptism: “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” The inward change of attitude toward Christ was to become an outward proclamation of loyalty and submission.
Following baptism there was instruction (v. 42), just as the Lord had commanded. New disciples must come to know the precepts of the kingdom they have entered.
In Acts 4 Peter speaks with power to the rulers. Again the exalted position and authority of Christ is emphasized (vv. 10-12). In Acts 5 Peter states that the Holy Spirit is “given to them that obey” Christ (vv. 30-32). Here obedience is definitely linked with salvation.
When he stands in Cornelius' house Peter again proclaims Christ's exaltation. This is “he who was ordained of God to be the Judge of living and dead” (Acts 10:42). Previously Peter had said: “He is Lord of all” (v. 36).
We find the same stress laid on Christ's Lordship in Peter's writings. There is no suggestion of receiving Jesus as Savior first and Lord later. Christians are described as “elect . . . unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ” (I Peter 1:2). Obedience is seen as married to salvation. Christians are seen as those who are marked by obedience to the truth (v. 22). They are called “obedient children” (v. 14).
In I Peter 2:9 believers are described corporately as God's “holy nation,” a people voluntarily clustered under His authority and rule.
The king's example of suffering is held up as a model (v. 21). Such a Savior is worthy of being exalted to the highest place of authority in the hearts of His followers (3:15).
In II Peter 2:1, Peter describes apostates as “denying even the Lord that bought them.” The word “Lord” here is despotes, “master,” a very strong term denoting absolute ownership and control. Redemption (purchase) is linked with ownership and mastery.
Peter concludes his epistle by calling Jesus “Lord and Savior” (3:2). The order of terms is significant. The Christian life is to be marked by growth in “grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (3:18).
Thus, from the beginning of his preaching (Acts 2:36) to the end of his writing, Peter proclaims Jesus as Lord, as well as Savior and Christ.
III. THE MESSAGE OF PAUL
Immediately after Paul's conversion he began preaching that Jesus “is the son of God” (Acts 9:20). This was in the Damascus synagogues. Later, as Paul began to move among the Gentiles as well as the Jews, God's approval of Jesus became a prominent feature of his message. That approval was demonstrated by resurrection and exaltation (13:30-33).
Jesus was presented, not only as a dying, vicarious sacrifice, but also as a risen, triumphant Lord, and listeners were called upon to acknowledge His claims. He is the man God has appointed as universal judge (17:31). He is the great king. And so to the end of his days, Paul continued “preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ” (28:31).
In his epistles, Paul links faith in a compelling way with the recognition of Christ's sovereignty. He invites people to “confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead” (Romans 10:9). The words might better be translated, “Thou shalt confess . . . Jesus as Lord.” The inevitable result of the heart being convinced of His claims is that the lips will open in a pledge of allegiance to the Christ.
To call Jesus “Lord” is to put yourself under His authority. Jesus complained of the hypocrisy of those who called Him, “Lord, Lord,” but did not do the things He commanded (Luke 6:46). By contrast, Paul describes the Roman Christians as follows: “Ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto you” (Romans 6:17). They were given over to Christ's teaching for its molding, forming effect upon their lives. They had become enslaved to righteousness (v. 18) and to God (v. 22).
These are strong terms that Paul uses to define this new relationship. They are consistent with the goal of his ministry, which was “obedience to the faith” (1:5).
To Paul, the lost are those who “do not obey the truth” (Romans 2:8). He views unbelievers as disobedient (Ephesians 2:2; 5:6; Titus 3:3).
In summary, disobedience characterizes unbelief, while obedience marks the believer who confesses Jesus as Lord.
IV. THE MESSAGE OF JOHN
The apostle John stands squarely with Peter and Paul on these issues. Throughout his account of the life and ministry of Christ, faith and obedience are linked together.
At the conclusion of the great gospel chapter where Nicodemus talks to Jesus, John makes a few comments about the Lord's greatness and the truthfulness of his witness (John 3:31-35). Then he warns: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth upon him” (v. 36). The Greek word changes from the first phrase to the second, and modern translations follow it by translating the second verb “does not obey."
Disbelief in John's mind equals disobedience. It is the visible result of unbelief, even as obedience is the visible result of faith.
In his epistles, John teaches that submission to Christ is a proof of knowing Him. “Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (I John 2:3-4).
John says the man is a liar and hypocrite who professes to believe but resists submission to the Lord. In fact, a necessary result of birth from God is doing righteousness (v. 29). It is one of the brand-marks by which a true disciple can be recognized (3:10).
CONCLUSION
Is it possible to receive Jesus as Savior but not as Lord? Is it possible to believe in Jesus but to refuse submission to Him?
Beginning with Christ, and continuing with Peter, Paul and John, the message is the same. True gospel preaching proclaims the person of Christ as well as His work. The Giver must be received as well as the Gift.
Salvation is not simply an escape from hell, but an entrance into the life of submission to God.
We do well to emphasize this in our preaching. We weaken the gospel if we present it only as an escape from hell, and not as a call to discipleship. But more than that! In our modern, rationalistic world, many people who are unmoved by warnings concerning the after-life find themselves definitely challenged by the biblical call to a new loyalty and a new sovereignty.
Christ is the Savior from the power of sin, as well as from its penalty!
Bringing Out The Beauty Steadfastly
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 - Job 33:28 - PS 19:14 - Ezekiel 33:7
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Excellent points Sojourn.
I had never thought of this with regard to Phil 2:10-11.
Thank you for sharing those points.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sojourner
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Member # 19
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Quote from BecauseHelives: "When we believe it is two fold.
1. Confession with the mouth
2. Believe in the heart (this is the part that many misunderstand)"
I'm glad you brought up Romans 10:9 because it says how to be saved. So here is God, speaking for Himself on the matter of taking Jesus as Lord to save:
Rom. 10:9-10
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
And I say, if He were not Lord, He would not be able to save. Therefore, your idea of salvation would be worthless if you thought He could save without being Lord, because a Jesus Who is not Lord of all is not Lord at all. In order to be Lord, He must be Lord of everybody. Those who believe simply admit it sooner rather than later, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (including those who aren't saved). (Phil. 2:10-11)
The sanctification process that those who have taken Jesus as Lord to save go through simply is God faithfully working in our lives to complete the work He began in us. We further submit to His lordship as He refines us through the years and trials and His loving discipline when we stray.
Posts: 276 | From: CA, U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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I cant give you a simple yes or no, because as I know you brother Dale and know your heart for our Lord, I do NOT believe it is POSSIBLE for you to slip that far away from the Lord that you would die in sin nor Deny Him or live your life without regars to God or his Word.
If you, as I know you, would to fall into sin, you would never reach the point of being able to deny him, and I am certain that our Lord would bring you back to repentance before he allowed you to die, because you are ALREADY His.
It is the power of His Holy Spirit that keeps you walking in His footsteps and picking up your cross.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
I believe in children accepting the LORD, conversion age is not important, but the condition of the heart is. I do not know who is saved and unsaved or when “Salvation” becomes complete in the heart of an individual, but GOD does, HE has known from the foundations of the world.
I am now 50 years old, some would say that I was saved at 11 years old and some would say that I was saved at 21 years old. I would not begin to try to say that I know. People want to make spiritual birth parallel with natural birth and maybe it does there are any similarities. Some make it just a matter of adoption, that GOD has adopted us as his children and there is nothing that can change that fact.
I see “Salvation” as a completed work at the cross. Y’SHUA paid the price for whosoever will. We do nothing to earn our “Salvation”. The BLOOD and that alone pays the price.
When we believe it is two fold.
1. Confession with the mouth
2. Believe in the heart (this is the part that many misunderstand)
Question ?
If I today, fell into sin and began to live my life without regard for GOD or HIS WORD and never repent and die in sin, do I get to go to Heaven and have eternal life?
With a simple yes or no, and I will not say any more.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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You are not alone in your testimony Bar Eloheim that does not fit the theology of some here. I too say that I was saved as a child but did not surrender to His Lordship till later, much later in life. I have been told by some here that I am mistaken and was not saved during those early years, because my "conversion" was not like that of Paul which produced and instantaneous and complete change, but mine was a change that came layer by layer as God molded and shaped me and peeled away many layers of self.
I want to throw something out here for sake of discussion.
When was the lamb slain? Was it in 33AD?
Well my Bible says it was from the foudation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The way I see it is that what history saw in 33AD was the earthly maifestation of what God had done from before the foundations of the world.
When does Paul say he was saved? It was in God's timing that Paul was born (separated from his mothers womb) and called by grace for the purpose of revealing His Son.
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother‘s womb, and called me by his grace,to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
In Judges we see Samson who was also set apart unto God FROM HIS MOTHER"S womb:
Judges 16:17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother‘s womb:
In First Peter we see that the elect are elect according to the foreknowledge of God... Thus from the beginning:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
My assertion is that we are God's from the beginning. His work is done, before we enter this life. Our so called conversion is the manifestation in an eartly realm of something that is done from the beginning, and is our human attempts to view God in our frame of linier time reference that leads us to this debate of when one is saved. He who is saved is saved in God's eye view from the beginning.
It is God who gives life and takes it. It is God who decides that the soul of an 8 year old child who believes and dies in a fatal car crash is saved, though this child may know nothing of Lordship, as you or I may know it. It is God who allows the life to continue long enough to peel away the onion skin of layers and layers of self that holds another from surrender to Lordship.
It is God who knows our heart. It is God who knows what trials we must go through that our level of faith or level of surrender is sufficient to insure a pure heart and whether that happens as with Paul in an instant, or as with myself or my brother Bar Eloheim as a process it is not for us to judge that heart nor the work God is doing in it at any given moment in time...
We must recognize that it is God that is in control and not a sparrow falls to the ground that he does not ordain it. This is true of man as well.
We do not come to God of our own call, but His, we cannot be saved by our own doing, but by His grace and providence; If this was not done from the beginning God would not have foreknowledge of it, but he clearly does have foreknowledge.
Those who will be saved are already saved in the all seeing all knowing eyes of God Almighty. This also leads to the understanding that we do not become unsaved. As time continues as long as God allows and those who go to their death unsaved are unsaved from the beginning of time. The time each of us are allowed on this earth to work out our salvation or not is under the complete control of God almighty and is for His purpose and His glory not ours.
If it is instantaneous conversion in the life of one as Paul that He determines brings Him Glory then it is done.
Likewise if it is the testimony and witness of another that has struggled and fought with God every step of the way as with my own life that brings Him glory, then it is also done. But it is he who ordains which way it will be and in whose life.
Everything that will be done is already done in the eyes of our God. There are no suprises that await him. We must wait and pray and watch as the whole picture unfolds for us in our time, but from God's view it is done. So when Bar Eloheim was 8 and believed he was saved, according to God he was! God knew exactly when this surrender to Lordship would occur. And likewise if he had died at nine, knowing nothing of Lordship, but by the faith of a child believing that he was saved by Christ's shed blood, you can bet that his death would have been with the foreknowledge of God almighty and his faith at nine would have been sufficient, or God would not have allowed his death in the first place!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Submission is the keyword here. Submission to His Word in the face of the situations of life. re-read Romans 13 my friend, and get to know about Lordship.
LK 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
LK 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
LK 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
LK 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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bar_elohim
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Member # 802
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posted
quote:
YESHUA can not be your SAVIOUR, and not be your LORD also.
Sorry that my testimony doesn't fit with your theology (becauseHeLives), but you do err in your assumptions, even if you quote Matthew Henry commentaries.
When someone strikes you in the face, and you don't "turn the other cheek", is He Lord in that situation? When a brother is in need and you have the means to meet that need, and don't, is HE lord in that situation? When a situation arises, and He says, 'be not anxious', but you do anyway, is He lord? When we stand by faith in the situation, submitting to His word for the situation, then He is Lord of the situation.
Remember those who cry..."Lord, Lord, but we did this..........
Submission is the keyword here. Submission to His Word in the face of the situations of life. re-read Romans 13 my friend, and get to know about Lordship.
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"If you aren't making at least someone angry, then your not doing it right!"
Posts: 7 | From: canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
YESHUA can not be your SAVIOUR, and not be your LORD also.
SALVATION is a surrendering our personal lordship, for HIS LORDSHIP.
Matthew Henry
ACTS 16: 25-34 The consolations of God to his suffering servants are neither few nor small. How much more happy are true Christians than their prosperous enemies! As in the dark, so out of the depths, we may cry unto God. No place, no time is amiss for prayer, if the heart be lifted up to God. No trouble, however grievous, should hinder us from praise. Christianity proves itself to be of God, in that it obliges us to be just to our own lives. Paul cried aloud to make the jailer hear, and to make him heed, saying, Do thyself no harm. All the cautions of the word of God against sin, and all appearances of it, and approaches to it, have this tendency. Man, woman, do not ruin thyself; hurt not thyself, and then none else can hurt thee; do not sin, for nothing but that can hurt thee. Even as to the body, we are cautioned against the sins which do harm to that. Converting grace changes people's language of and to good people and good ministers. How serious the jailer's inquiry! His salvation becomes his great concern; that lies nearest his heart, which before was furthest from his thoughts. It is his own precious soul that he is concerned about. Those who are thoroughly convinced of sin, and truly concerned about their salvation, will give themselves up to Christ. Here is the sum of the whole gospel, the covenant of grace in a few words; Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. The Lord so blessed the word, that the jailer was at once softened and humbled. He treated them with kindness and compassion, and, professing faith in Christ, was baptized in that name, with his family. The Spirit of grace worked such a strong faith in them, as did away further doubt; and Paul and Silas knew by the Spirit, that a work of God was wrought in them. When sinners are thus converted, they will love and honour those whom they before despised and hated, and will seek to lessen the suffering they before desired to increase. When the fruits of faith begin to appear, terrors will be followed by confidence and joy in God.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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bar_elohim
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posted
Jesus became my Savior when I was about 8 years old. But He wasn't My Lord till Sept. 26th 1982, 11:00pm. Since this date, a fellowship began with the reality of Christ. Before then He was an historical Jesus. Upon this date, He became a reality in my Life.
In October of that year, one of the most important aspects to the 'changed' life, was the receiving the Holy Spirit. Through learning how to listen, and how to obey, came the changing. At the first, He was Lord for only a few minutes, and I was Lord the other. But day by day, week by week, the Holy spirit taught me how to submit and know by faith that He will do as promised. For Lordship is given, never taken.
Today I see many believers, who have never received the Holy Spirit, for a variety of reasons. Even as Paul who met many believers, who had undergone Johns water baptisim, for the forgiveness of sin, but had never even heard of the Holy Spirits need to be invited into the believers life.
One can only be born again by the Holy Spirits doing. But that is only to prepare the 'temple' for His indwelling. Unfortunetly, many 'temples' are washed by the blood, and water. BUT the Holy Spirit isn't invited to come in to the sanctified dwelling. We have the old testament illustration in the tabernacle Moses erected, then cleansed with the water and the blood. Then the Cloud descended and filled the tabernacle, so much so that the tabernacle couldn't even be seen.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. To so work within them, that 'they' are no longer seen, save Christ through them...
Most gospels today, leave out the need to be filled with the Spirit. If even Jesus needed the Holy Spirit, how much more do believers today?
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"If you aren't making at least someone angry, then your not doing it right!"
Posts: 7 | From: canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
The Gospel stands alone in power to work and change and to bring a depraved and unregenerate man to new life in Christ Jesus.
C.H.S
The rush is spongy and hollow, and even so is a hypocrite; there is no substance or stability in him.
It is shaken to and fro in every wind just as formalists yield to every influence; for this reason the rush is not broken by the tempest, neither are hypocrites troubled with persecution.
I would not willingly be a deceiver or be deceived; perhaps the text for this day may help me to try myself whether I be a hypocrite or no.
The rush by nature lives in water, and owes its very existence to the mire and moisture wherein it has taken root; let the mire become dry, and the rush withers very quickly.
Its greenness is absolutely dependent upon circumstances, a present abundance of water makes it flourish, and a drought destroys it at once.
Is this my case? Do I only serve God when I am in good company, or when religion is profitable and respectable? Do I love the Lord only when temporal comforts are received from his hands? If so I am a base hypocrite, and like the withering rush, I shall perish when death deprives me of outward joys.
But can I honestly assert that when bodily comforts have been few, and my surroundings have been rather adverse to grace than at all helpful to it, I have still held fast my integrity? then have I hope that there is genuine vital godliness in me.
The rush cannot grow without mire, but plants of the Lord’s right hand planting can and do flourish even in the year of drought.
A godly man often grows best when his worldly circumstances decay.
He who follows Christ for his bag is a Judas; they who follow for loaves and fishes are children of the devil; but they who attend him out of love to himself are his own beloved ones.
Lord, let me find my life in thee, and not in the mire of this world’s favour or gain.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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CommunityOfChrist
Community Member
Member # 783
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posted
My friend, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is very sad. We do see much of this salesmanship. I fear much of what Mr. Charles Finney started has still kept on going but for no reason. I believe he started the "anxious seat" which is much like the alter call. It seems to me this fits our society - we want it quick. We want a drive thru. So we just say, "Hey come up here and do this stuff and you'll go to heaven." The sad thing is that that is not true. Just because someone responds to an alter call does not in any way, shape or form mean they have become a regenerate, born anew creation of God in Christ Jesus. Someone once said that because of Finney 500,000 people came to Christ but even Finney admitted that there was a very large number of people who would fall away after coming to the "anxious seat." Mr. Chambers is correct about the work of God in salvation - it is truly a magnificent, supernatural miracle worked by God in Christ by His Spirit alone. It seems much of what is preached and much of how the church operates these days shows a lack of faith and a lack of belief in the power of the Gospel to alone change lives. We can't market the church to the world. We can't try to make the message appear or come in such a way that people "will believe." No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them. The Gospel stands alone in power to work and change and to bring a depraved and unregenerate man to new life in Christ Jesus. It seems we've lost that. This is why we can't be silent and we need to live in obedience to the Lord and can't just sit back and say things are ok when they're not.
Posts: 8 | From: PA | Registered: Dec 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
WHATEVER HAPPENED TO OLD-FASHIONED CONVERSION
There was no drawn out process to undo the influence of St. Paul's deeply ingrained, legalistic, Jewish background in his conversion. One moment he was a proud, angry crusader against that hated sect of "Jesus People" called Christians. He was committed to their destruction. In an instant he was struck blind, his pride and self confidence shattered, his vision of persecuting the church of Jesus Christ destroyed, and a new life and vision was born into his breast. In an instant Saul was converted from a bitter persecutor of the church to a single-minded follower of Jesus Christ.
Oswald Chambers put it this way, "By the miracle of Redemption, Saul of Tarsus was turned in one second from a strong-willed, intense Pharisee into a humble, devoted slave of the Lord Jesus." Bible salvation is an absolute miracle of the unaided grace of God. Bible salvation is life instilled miraculously by the hand of sovereign God. Because it is Life, after its inception it involves maturing growth; but its inception is a miracle, pure and simple. Like Lazarus of Bethany, life is inspirited into a dead being who now lives, walks, and talks by the power of his new, miraculous life. Light floods his spiritually blind eyes, and he now sees new things he never saw before. His heart which he readily acknowledges was "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" is now made new, alive, pure, clean. He is truly "born again" --"from above"!
True Bible salvation, pure and simple, is simply a miracle. Nothing more! Nothing less! We do not see much of that kind of radical, miraculous conversion anymore. We see a lot of worked up, salesmanship, quick decision kind of stuff, but too precious little of the miraculous, Bible kind. Consequently, our churches are filled up with people who are filled up with the same hang ups they had before they "prayed the prayer", "made the decision", or "walked the aisle". Their lifestyle has not changed. Nothing, really, has changed about them. Christians, people who have been made "new creatures in Christ", and have been given the "ministry of reconciliation" by the miracle of being "born again", have so little of "it", that they can't even be reconciled to their own "Christian" spouses, and now, in many areas, are ahead of their "lost" friends "out in the world" in getting divorces! They exemplify the very antithesis of the lifestyle of a redeemed, reconciled person who is now by his very nature called to be a "reconciler".
PSYCHOLOGY AND CONVERSION. The philosophic foundation of psychology, and of much that goes on in the modern church, is that man in his brokenness, his failures, his perversity, his cruelty, his selfishness, his shame, is "fixable". If we can just find the right combo of words (counseling), experiences (positive affirmations, "praise worship", etc.), chemicals (tranquilizers, vitamins, natural foods), and genetic manipulation, any human condition can be "fixed". No need for God! No need for repentance! No need for old-fashioned Bible conversion! No need for miraculous redemption! Just give us a little more time, a little more funding, a few more human guinea-pigs to experiment on, and we will find a way to "fix" all our problems. There may be some "weed" cases, or classes, or races we have to eliminate (published philosophy of Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, advocate of "eugenics" --good killing--, and mother of the modern abortion methodology of murder), but we will find a way to fix our own problems. "Thank you God, for your offer of help. But no thanks! We think we can "fix" it all ourselves."
Much of "Christian" counseling, and "Christian" psychology has bought into this philosophic world view to one degree or another. "If we can just find the right combination of words, experiences, and chemicals, we can help you go on with a wonderful Christian life the Bible promises to Christians. It's wonderful that you have been converted. Now we will help you fix your real problems (which God was apparently too weak to do.)" Hence, a whole new, and hitherto unneeded and unknown, field of "Christian ministry" of counseling has developed --because of our loss of true and thorough Biblical conversions.
BIBLE CONVERSION. The philosophical foundation, though, of Bible conversion is that man is not fixable, but that he is dead in his trespasses and sins and lost; he is blind in, and to, his spiritual deadness; that he has no understanding; that he is completely unprofitable in the true core of his very being. Indeed, the philosophical foundation of scripture is that man is not fixable; that he is hopeless in his own lost estate, even though he may be polished and refined; that he is only redeemable through the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and through the work of God's miraculous grace.
A true picture of Bible conversion is illustrated in the testimony of a saint of another century (early Methodist, I think) who described his own conversion as he was riding along on his horse, with the following statement: "Between the saddle and the ground, I mercy sought and mercy found!" One moment he was in his saddle, and in his sins. The next moment he was struck by the deep convicting work of God; he threw himself from his saddle to his knees on the ground; and in that instant he was miraculously heaven bound. Aha! Miraculous, Biblical conversion! Man is "totally depraved", completely unable to do anything to effect his own salvation. How can a dead man save himself. What could Lazarus do?
But the Spirit of God miraculously works conviction in a man's heart, gives sight to his blind eyes so that he sees the desperateness of his hopeless estate, and miraculously places God-life in that dead man's empty soul, and Jesus Christ starts growing up to manhood in his life. With Jesus, the new "God-life" growing in him he cries, "I see it! Epiphany! Christ! My sin bearer!" Faith is aborned, and his is "saved"!
I repeat Oswald Chamber's observation from the pages of My Utmost For His Highest: "By the miracle of Redemption, Saul of Tarsus was turned in one second from a strong-willed, intense Pharisee into a humble, devoted slave of the Lord Jesus."
Under the influence of "scientific psychology" we have lost our confidence in miraculous, instantaneous conversion by God's grace, and have switched our faith to the world-view of modern "Christian Psychology" which says, "We can help you fix it, no matter how much money or time it takes. Just trust me!"
Oh, God! Restore our faith and joy in you alone, today! Restore Bible conversion to thy Church-- today! Save us from the foolish wisdom of man!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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