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Topic: the resurrection did not occur on Sun-day!
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John Hale
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The best contrast or juxtaposition between human reason and God's reason is found in...
Matthew 16:17 (KJV)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16:23 (KJV)
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
This not only shows that human reason opposes God but is ultimately rooted in the devil.
This is how and why people are often referred to as children of the devil (John 8:44ff) and the "synagogue of Satan" (another name for Christ-less Judaism) mentioned twice in Revelation.
We must all be on guard not to be instruments of the devil because when we lapse into our humanness (reasoning and desiring and acting upon matters of the flesh rather than those of the spirit) even believers in Jesus Christ (as was Peter, btw) find ourselves working for the other side.
God does not expect 100% from us 100% of the time. Remember Peter. "I will die for you, Jesus." His answer was not "you'd better." But he said "Oh really? This time tomorrow you will have denied me three times."
Was that it for old Pete?
No not at all. Until he got right with God he was in the penalty box (so to speak) not even counted among the disciples... "go tell my brethren... AND Peter..."
Human reasoning and rationale on the part of believers is why we Christians tend to form our firing squads in circles.
It does not end our salvation. It cannot stop the spread of the Gospel. It just hinders us while we are busily engaged in chasing our own tail.
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John Hale
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The argument goes... the majority of verses wins... if Jesus said this or the Bible says that more times than the other then the majority wins.
That's human (herd) mentality. Works great for purposes of peer pressure etc. But not in Bible study.
If the Bible says a hundred thousand times God is one and there is no God besides me... and only once or twice says there is more than one person who is God then we cannot conclude the Bible is modalist / oneness and the majority of the verses win the vote.
Huh uh. Won't work. The truth is not up for a vote.
All verses must be taken into consideration. That's the way God structured scriptures.
So modalism is out and the oneness of God has to be rethought top consider how more than one can be one. That the oneness of God is a compound one or unity as one family for example.
In the case of what day the crucifixion takes place, the Friday crowd's argument falls apart when considering the one verse Jesus spoke. So the strategy is to spiritualize it, parablize it, make it into rabbinic ironic phraseology...
In the Wednesday answer all points are taken into consideration and takes the Lord's words literally and puts human understanding of terms and manners of counting and the three different scales of human date rendering below the Lord's own word.
And when we do you can see that expressionism along with the three renderings dismantle the Friday argument altogether.
It's the difference between submitting to the Lord's declaration rather than forcing the circumstances to fit our understanding.
It's not blind faith. Because the reasons and the arguments do come once we make up our mind to take the Lord's word for it (here and in all things).
This is the danger of empirical reasoning being applied too soon. There is great apologetic empiricism that will blow your mind...
I mean really blow your mind!
BUT... God is not going to allow us to reason our way into salvation... thus making him prove his case to our individual standards or goals...
the old "if God doesn't strike me dead in five minutes there is no God" argument offered by atheist professors before shocked students they mislead...
God does not jump through anyone's whoops.
Seeing is not believing. Believing is seeing.
First you have to believe. First you have to trust. THEN comes all the reasons. We may not like it that way... but we are not God after all and that's kind of the point.
We are all guilty of trying to impose our wills (even obliviously) on God. But he is God and the ultimate decider of what's what.
Just remember, human reason is the tool Satan used to blind the leaders of the Jews.
God bless!
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John Hale
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Wednesday evening to Saturday evening / Sunday commencement is three days (as in one night and one day equal one "day") and so after the third "day" and at the same time it was on the third daylight cycle (on the third day).
No way could a port of Friday - all day Saturday - and a portion of Sunday account for this.
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John Hale
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All proof it could not have been the last couple of hours on Friday till the first light on Sunday.
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becauseHElives
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good morning Carol;...Jesus Testimony
Yahshua tells us in Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
If you run the numbers from Friday to Sunday morning, the best you can do is 2 days and 2 nights that Yahshua would be in the ground. Either Yahshua was wrong, or you got it wrong.
OK, you say, “ Yahshua was being figurative. “
Yahweh thought you might say this and placed a couple of guys in the Bible that tell us how long it was from Yahshua's death to the first day of the week.
On the day he was resurrected, Yahshua is on a walking trip down the road to Emmaus in Luke 24, Cleopas tells Yahshua that it has been three days (vs 21) since the death.
John 19:31 alluded to the Day of Preparation which was part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and was regarded as a special Sabbath even though it didn’t have to occur on a “Saturday”, so using that idea to make it Friday is not necessary.
I suppose, in short, I choose to believe Yahshua's words.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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John Hale
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It is clear you, Carol, believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.
For the sake of moving on and this debate or discussion not devolving any further than it has... I'll leave it at that.
I only add the desire that you consider a broader interpretation of Shabbat (sabbaton) the Sabbath. Because to so legalistically define it to mean only Saturday the 7th day of the week with only two exceptions (Day of Atonement and the sabbatical year) is to miss the point the way the Jews did.
How often Jesus spoke about being Lord of the sabbath and that it was made for man and not man for the sabbath... that's not only about the day of the week to rest / worship (which I am sure you have no hesitation to disregard and embrace Sunday worship as do most Christians).
What does one have to do with the other?
Only this:
The Sabbath feasts described in Leviticus 23 include the weekly sabbath day itself which all are described as holy convocations wherein no work is to be done but rather rest... on feast days as well.
Shabbat is derived from the root:
7673 shabath { shaw-bath’}
a primitive root;
AV - cease 47, rest 11, away 3, fail 2, celebrate 1, misc 7; 71
1) to cease, desist, rest
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to cease
1a2) to rest, desist (from labour)
1b) (Niphal) to cease
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to cause to cease, put an end to
1c2) to exterminate, destroy
1c3) to cause to desist from
1c4) to remove
1c5) to cause to fail
2) (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath
Strong, J. The exhaustive concordance
Terminology in the first century CE as well as doctrines as well as the scriptures themselves were all pre coucil of Yavneh and certainly pre council of Nicea before the mesorah and so on...
All these things used to define today what Peter meant dictating to John Mark years after the fact the statement found in Mark 15:42 meant only the Saturday 7th day Sabbath and not the high feast of Passover...
When the Sabbath itself was only a shadow of things to come (Hebrews 8:5) to point to the sabbath age in which we now live... which is why it is no sin to worship on Sunday or Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday or Friday or Saturday because it's all shabbat to the believer in the High Priest Jesus who fulfilled once for all the Law of Moses.
So what it boils down to is Mark 15:42 versus Matthew 12:39-40.
Which can we be absolutely certain of the meaning of what was said? The author of Mark meaning the literal 7th day sabbath? Or the quote from Jesus who said not just "three days" but twice said "three days and three nights."
I am quite finished with this discussion.
God bless.
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Carol Swenson
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50 days from the day the firstfruits of the barley harvest was waved before the Lord, (50 days from the morrow after the Sabbath after Passover), is Shavuot or the Day of Pentecost. Rabbinic scholars believe that it was on this day that God visited His people after their exodus from Egypt and through Moses, brought the Law down from Mount Sinai. This earthshaking day of visitation, trembling, and betrothal is the birthday of the nation of Israel. Moses brings down the Torah or Law for the nation.
50 days from the day the Firstfruits of the Resurrection, (that is 50 days from the morrow after the weekly (Saturday) Sabbath after Passover), in the summer of the year of Christ’s passion, God visits His people by His Holy Spirit. This is another earthshaking day of visitation and betrothal.
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Carol Swenson
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Good morning becauseHElives! I'm so glad you joined us. John was running out of things to say.
In the three spring feasts we see the redemption story of our Saviour as it emerged into history nearly two millennia ago. Our Lord Jesus personally fulfilled all three of those spring feasts. They were accurately fulfilled down to the minutest detail and on the very day of the lunar calendar they were due. Christ was crucified on Passover, and in the grave on Unleavened Bread, a High Sabbath.
In the case of the Feast of Firstfruits, on the morrow after the Sabbath of Passover, something wonderful and unexpected happened. Our Saviour once again fulfilled the feast. He rose from the dead on the first day of the week. This was on the morrow after the Sabbath following Passover. Thus in His resurrection from the dead He fulfilled the Feast of Firstfruits. Resurrection Sunday came on the very day in which the Feast of Firstfruits was celebrated, (and foreshadowed), in the Old Covenant since the feast was given by God through Moses to the covenant people as they gathered at Sinai.
On the 17th day of the Nissan moon the firstfruits of the barley harvest was gathered and waved before the Lord in celebration.
On the 17th day of Nissan in 30 A.D. Jesus rises up from the grave. He is the firstfruits from the dead. On that very day He fulfilled the feast.
Types for Nissan 17:
Nissan 17, Noah’s Ark safely rested on Mt. Ararat (Gen 8:4)
Nissan 17, Hebrews entered Egypt (Exo 12:40-41) 430 years before deliverance.
Nissan 17, Moses led the Israelites through the Parting of the Red Sea (Exo 3:18, 5:3)
Nissan 17, Israel entered and ate the first fruit of the Promised Land (Joshua 5:10-12)
Nissan 17, The cleansing of the Temple by Hezekiah (eight hundred years after entering the promised land. (2 Chronicles 29:1-28)
Nissan 17, Queen Esther saved the Jews from Extermination (Esther 3:12, 5:1)
Nissan 17, The Resurrection of Messiah
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becauseHElives
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Solving the Three Day Three Night Mystery
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley
In Matthew 12:38 Jesus is asked for a sign that He’s the promised Messiah. The religious officials had just accused Him of using the power of Satan to perform His miracles, and so He described the only sign they would see. “Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,” He said, “So will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12:40).” By this He meant that because their hearts were hard they would only know for sure that He was their Messiah after they had killed Him, but His response resulted in a 2000 year controversy surrounding the time of His death.
What’s a Sabbath?
Actually the controversy exists largely among gentile believers. Most people familiar with the Jewish religion and culture figured it out long ago. But to gentiles who don’t know about these things, the phrase in John 19:31 identifying the day after the Crucifixion as a special Sabbath means that Jesus had to have been crucified on a Friday, because even gentiles know that the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday. Many otherwise competent resources (such as the Study Bible I use) make that mistake. And everyone agrees that He rose again on Sunday. There isn’t any way you can put three days and three nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning. Hence the controversy.
So let’s get it straight. Sabbath means holy day. There is one every Saturday in Israel, but there are also several during the year that are date specific. That means they are always observed on a specific calendar date, regardless of the day. They’re like our Christmas. It always comes on the 25th of December no matter what day of the week that happens to be.
The special Sabbath John referred to is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and it’s a date specific holy day; always observed on the 15th of the month they call Nisan, which corresponds to March/April on our calendar. So the first thing we learn is that the special Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 wasn’t a Saturday.
In fact there are three special Sabbaths (or Holy Days, if you prefer) in the month of Nisan alone; Passover on the 14th, the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th and runs through the 22nd, and the Feast of First Fruits on the Sunday morning following Passover. Of the three, only Unleavened Bread prohibits work like the weekly Sabbath, but all have both a historical and prophetic purpose and like all days in the Jewish calendar they begin at sundown, following the pattern of Genesis 1. (This also confuses Gentiles since our day begins at midnight.)
The Passover Lamb
The next issue we have to address is the sequence of events in the week we call Holy Week. In Exodus 12, where the Passover was ordained, we learn what that sequence was. God told the Israelites to select a lamb on the 10th day of the month and inspect it for defects until the 14th. This means through the end of the 13th. Then at twilight they were to slaughter and roast it, eating it that same evening. Using some of its blood they were to paint their door posts red to protect them from the plague coming upon Egypt at midnight.
Jesus came to fulfill the prophecy of the Passover Lamb, to save from death everyone who applies His shed blood to their lives. The only day He ever allowed the people to hail Him as King was on the day we call Palm Sunday, and as we’ll see it was the 10th day of the month. He did this to fulfill the selection process for the Passover Lamb. When the officials told Him to quiet His disciples, He said that if they became quiet, the very stones would cry out (Luke 19:40). For this was the day ordained in history. It was the day He officially became the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world. It was 483 years to the day from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet as the day the Messiah would present Himself to Israel. (Daniel 9:25) A little while after the officials spoke with Him, He condemned Jerusalem to utter destruction because they did not recognize the day of His visitation (Luke 19:41-44).
The next three days were filled with the most aggressive debate and confrontation with the officials in His entire ministry. He was being inspected for any doctrinal spot or blemish that would disqualify Him as the Lamb of God. They found none, and finally no one dared ask Him any more questions. (Matt. 22:46)
Tradition, Tradition
Some years before the birth of Jesus the Passover celebration had been changed and in the Lord’s time called for a brief ritual meal of lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs (horseradish) to begin the 14th followed by a great and leisurely festival meal on the 15th, when the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins. This tradition is still followed today.
The 14th became known as Preparation Day (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31), because on it they made ready for the great feast day beginning at sundown, after which no work was permitted.
Matthew identifies the day after the Crucifixion as the day after Preparation Day (27:62) so all four Gospels agree. Jesus died on Preparation day, the 14th of their month Nisan, which is Passover. He ate the ritual meal with His disciples in the Upper Room, and then was arrested, tried, convicted, and put to death; all on Passover. He had to be, in order to fulfill the prophecies of the Passover Lamb.
So just like the Lord had commanded in Exodus 12, He was selected on the 10th, inspected on the 11th, 12th, and 13th, and executed on the 14th of Nisan.
How Do We Know This?
A little over 100 years ago a believer named Robert Anderson was head of Scotland Yard’s investigative division. He became intrigued by the three days and three nights issue and enlisted the help of the London Royal Observatory to investigate the problem since astronomers can locate the exact position of the planets and stars on any date in history. Since Passover always falls on the 14th, and since the Jewish calendar is lunar (moon) rather than solar (sun) oriented, there is always a full moon on Passover. This fulfills Genesis 1:14.
Plotting the course of the Sun and Moon they documented the day and date of every full moon. The Royal Observatory discovered that the first Palm Sunday was the 10th of Nisan, the day when Exodus 12 says to select the lamb. Therefore Passover, the 14th, was Thursday. The Feast of Unleavened bread began on Friday the 15th, Saturday the 16th was the weekly Sabbath, and Resurrection Morning was also a Sunday, the 17th. From Thursday to Sunday there are three days and three nights. Here’s how it works. It’s a little confusing to our way of thinking because the Hebrew day changes at sunset, which means that night precedes day. But read carefully and you’ll see that it makes sense.
As I’ve said, Jesus had to die on Passover to fulfill the prophecy. Early that Thursday morning the Jewish leadership gotten permission to crucify Him. (Matt. 27:1-26) His fate was sealed and He was hanging on the cross by 9 AM, as good as dead. His actual time of death was about 3 PM and His body was laid in the tomb sometime later, since the officials wanted it off the cross before sundown brought the Feast of Unleavened Bread, after which no work was permitted. By then Jesus had been in Sheol for several hours. Thursday was day one.
Because in Jewish reckoning the night precedes the day, at sundown it became Friday the 15th, night one, and the special Sabbath John mentioned began (John 19:31). At sunrise it was Friday day, day two. The next sundown brought Saturday night the 16th, night two, and the regular Sabbath began. As of sunrise it was Saturday day, day three. At sundown on Saturday it became Sunday night the 17th, night three, and sometime before sunrise Jesus rose from the tomb. Three days and three nights. When the women arrived at sunrise to anoint His body, He was already gone.
So in the week Jesus died two Sabbaths that permitted no work were observed back to back: The Feast of Unleavened Bread on Friday the 15th, and the regular weekly Sabbath on Saturday the 16th. In Matthew 28:1 we read that at dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday the 17th) the women who were close to Jesus went to the tomb. Luke 24:1 tells us they were going to anoint His body for burial. The two Sabbaths had prevented them from doing so earlier. But He wasn’t there. He had risen. Being the Sunday after Passover, at the Jewish Temple it was Feast of First Fruits. At the Empty Tomb it was Resurrection Morning.
Some people try to equate his time of death with the burial of His body and say you can’t count Thursday as day one, because His body wasn’t laid in the tomb until sunset was upon them. But that doesn’t make sense. A person’s death always precedes his or her burial, sometimes by several days. In the Lord’s case it was several hours between the time He died the the time His body was lain in the tomb.
The two disciples who met the Lord on the road to Emmaus that Sunday (the day the Lord’s resurrection was discovered) help us to confirm this (Luke 24:13-35). At first they thought the Lord must have been a very recent visitor to the area when He asked them to explain why they were so sad. In the course of the discussion they indicated it was the third day since the crucifixion. “Since” is roughly equivalent to “after”. It being Sunday, the previous day (Saturday) would have been the 2nd day since it happened , and Friday would have been the first day since it happened, making Thursday the day it happened.
Others argue that this view doesn’t permit three full days and three full nights in the tomb but that’s not what the Scripture says. It simply says three days and three nights. If you move his death up to Wednesday like some teach to get three full days you violate the Passover Lamb prophecies. So the Thursday date is the only one that will accommodate both the Passover Lamb and the three day three night prophecies. Selah
http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/solving-the-three-day-three-night-mystery/
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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Passover lambs were slain between noon and 3 p.m. on Nissan 14.
The Fast of the Firstborn, Nissan 14, is a fast observed only by firstborn males, commemorating the fact that they were saved from the plague of the firstborn in Egypt. It is observed on the day preceding Passover.
Luke 22:7 NASB – Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover (το πασχα – to pascha – G3957 / הפסח – hapesach – H6453) lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 And Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it." 9 They said to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare it?" 10 And He said to them, "When you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house that he enters. 11 And you shall say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher says to you, "Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples? 12 And he will show you a large, furnished upper room; prepare it there." 13 And they left and found everything just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover. 14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
Because all three synoptic Gospels insist that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder, they must, therefore, hold that the crucifixion occurred on the first day of Passover, 15 Nissan.
Jesus ate with His disciples after sundown on 14 Nissan, (after sundown would make it 15 Nissan). He was arrested that night, and crucified on Friday, 15 Nissan. The next day was a High Sabbath.
There are a number of types for 15 Nissan:
On the 15th of Nissan of the year 2018 from creation (1743 BCE) God forged a special covenant with Abraham in which the destiny of the Jewish people was foretold. On that day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: 'To your seed I have given these land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates'" (Genesis 15:13-18).
On the 15th of Nissan of the year 1713 from creation Isaac was born. Genesis 21:1-6, "God remembered Sarah as He had said, and God did to Sarah as He had spoken. And Sarah conceived, and bore Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him... Abraham was a hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born to him. And Sarah declared: 'God has made laughter for me, so that all that hear will laugh ('yitzchak') with me."
'Your name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for you have contended with God and with men, and have prevailed'" (Genesis 32:25-29). It was the eve of Nissan 15.
On the 15th of Nissan of the year 2447 from creation (1314 BCE) -- exactly one year before the Exodus -- Moses was shepherding the flocks of his father-in-law, Jethro, at the foot of Mount Sinai, when God appeared to him in a "thornbush that burned with fire, but was not consumed" and instructed him to return to Egypt, come before Pharaoh, and demand in the name of God: "Let My people go, so that they may serve Me."
At the stroke of midnight of Nissan 15 of the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), 210 years after Jacob settled in Egypt and 430 years after the "Covenant Between the Parts," God visited the last of the ten plagues on the Egyptians, killing all their firstborn. Earlier that evening, the Children of Israel conducted the first "seder" of history, eating the roasted meat of the Passover offering with matzot and bitter herbs, and sprinkling the blood of the sacrifice on their doorposts as a sign that God will "pass over" their homes when inflicting the plague upon the Egyptians.
Thus the children of Israel were liberated from the yoke of their oppressors on the 15th day of Nissan, in the year 2448 after the creation of the world.
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John Hale
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Leviticus 23 (KJV)
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
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Carol Swenson
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No where in the Bible are the annual Jewish feast days like Passover or the days of unleavened bread called "HIGH SABBATHS" or "high days"! So the Bible itself, by its silence, refutes this concept completely.
The day of atonement is designated a compound expression "shabbath shabbathon", which means "a sabbath of solemn rest" (Lev 23:32; 16:31). But the Septuagint translates this phrase by the compound Greek expression "sabbata sabbaton," not the simple "sabbaton" used in the gospels. This proves that annual feast days like Passover are never designated simply as "sabbaton."
The Jewish feast days were to be "Sabbaths", (The day of atonement: Lev 16:31; 23:32 "It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath." Sabbath year: Lev 25:4; 2 Chron 36:21 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard.) However, outside of the books of Moses, these feast days are never called "sabbaths" (with the exception of the year long land Sabbath which was not a festival: 2 Chron 36:21) Instead, they are referred to as "annual feasts, appointed feasts, appointed times, assemblies, solemn assembly, festal assemblies, Festival, fixed festivals, keeping years". When the Jews used the word Sabbath, it always referred to the weekly Sabbath.
It was a special High Sabbath, the one that fell within the feast of unleavened bread. More importantly, the Sabbath within "Passover week" was the one they used to determine the Wave/ sheaf/ First fruits offering on the day after the Sabbath- always Sunday (Leviticus 23:11); and to start counting down for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) Leviticus 23:15.
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And you quote I see two non-canonical books in the defense of your argument. Apocryphal writings are quite the Roman Catholic way as is the Friday - Sunday crucifixion resurrection.
So? They worship Jesus Christ. Shall I turn away from Him because they worship Him? Not a chance. The RCC teaches things I don't agree with, but so do you.
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John Hale
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As you yourself said... 14 Nisan the day the lambs were slaughtered in preparation for the sabbath feast of unleavened bread 15 nisan.
You are taking a western mindset for shabbat and applying it strictly to the seventh day of the week (saturday). Any Jew will tell you all seven feasts are shabbos (sabbaths).
And you quote I see two non-canonical books in the defense of your argument. Apocryphal writings are quite the Roman Catholic way as is the Friday - Sunday crucifixion resurrection.
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Carol Swenson
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"And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, THE DAY BEFORE THE SABBATH...." (Mark 15:42 RSV)
The above text (Mk 15:42) is the key text as I read the accounts of the crucifixion and subsequent burial of Jesus (Mt 27:57-64; Mk 15:42-47; Lk 23:50-56; Jn 19:31-42), since the phrase "day of Preparation" is clearly defined by the Gospel of Mark as "the day BEFORE the Sabbath." It is agreed by every commentator and scholar I have checked on the subject that the Jewish Sabbath mentioned here is the Seventh-day or SATURDAY Sabbath, and therefore the "day before the Sabbath" can only mean FRIDAY. Further, Matthew calls the very next day (SATURDAY) the day AFTER the Preparation (Mt 27:62).
The technical term "Preparation" (Greek Paraskeue / Latin Parasceve) is used for FRIDAY as well in the deuterocanonical books of Judith (8:6) and Second Maccabees (8:26), in the Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews 16:163), and in the early non-canonical Christian documents, Didache (8:1) and the Martyrdom of Polycarp (7:1).
"The day on which Christ died is called 'the Preparation' in Mark 15:42 and John 19:31...The same day is in view in Matt 27:62 where the events recorded took place on 'the day after the Preparation' (RV). The reference would be to the 6th day of the week [or FRIDAY]. The title arose from the need of preparing food etc. for the Sabbath." (Vine, page 483)
No other day has ever been suggested by the term "Preparation" or "the day BEFORE the Sabbath" (Mark 15:42) other than FRIDAY.
Jesus was crucified and buried on a FRIDAY.
"THIS ALL HAPPENED ON FRIDAY, the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath..." (Mark 15:42 NLT)
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John Hale
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Understand I am not saying YOU are trying to detract from what the Lord said. You appear to have simply bought into what others said who ARE trying to win an argument / save face / force their opinion on scripture...
Until I started doing some digging in the Bible, I didn't realize I was parroting what others taught and did not check them out...
Major no-no in Bible study.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NIV)
21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
1 John 4:1 (NIV)
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Acts 17:11 (NIV)
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Test the spirits (including what we think or feel or hope is the Holy Spirit and may turn out to be devils or false prophets teachings or our own self will or opinion...)
Test the Apostle Paul.
I don't know about you, but to me this says there is no one above reproach or suspicion and that we are to prove all things and test the spirits and the teachers (no matter how glorious their title or how long they served here or there or if they raised the dead...)
...as the Bereans did... by scripture: the final court of arbitration... under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible.
John 16:13 (NIV)
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
2 Peter 1:20-21 (NIV)
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)
15 Do your best (KJV says STUDY) to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
I am sure you have studied the Bible. I am not trying to insult you. I am saying that the devil has been using man and human traditions to cloud the waters for quite some time so that our interpretations of the Bible tend to fall on the side of those traditions more often than we realize.
I left Baptist seminary for all the higher criticism that had leaked into its teaching to the point that Deutero / Trito Isaiah doctrines were taught to rule out supernaturalism that God could know the name of Koresh (Cyrus) before his birth.
Fooey!
Jesus quotes from both sides of the division higher criticism insists exists in the book of Isaiah and he declares it was the same Isaiah who wrote both.
John 12:37-41 (KJV)
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
That same Isaiah. But higher criticism is still taught in Baptist seminary. I don't know this for sure but have heard there are atheists on staff at Southwestern. Certainly humanists and those who disbelieve the deity of Christ the virgin birth in some cases the Trinity.
My, I wonder how long it will take for that brand of humanism and traditions of men to become topics of heated arguments among seminary grads and pastor teachers?
One day I simply decided to take God's side of the story... God's word for it... and to do what the Bible says (prove everything by the scriptures).
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John Hale
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So...
Are you saying the New Testament account of the Passion week says that high sabbath was the seventh day?
These are conclusions arrived at exclusive of the text in an attempt to detract from what the Lord Jesus said very plainly on the subject.
And, frankly, I am surprised at the hostility towards me (one who is simply stating the truth and sticking to it).
This tends to be the practice of those who have few facts to stand on 'pound pulpit here - - argument weak...'
You tried to put words into my mouth. I said if the Lord Jesus did not specify three days and three nights it might open the consideration of the interpretation of a potion of three days...
72 hours western thinking... puh-lease.
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Carol Swenson
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God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)
When we come to think about our works, we find, to our shame, that much has been very bad; but when God saw his work, all was very good. Good, for it was all just as the Creator would have it to be. All his works, in all places of his dominion, bless him; and therefore, bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Let us bless God for the gospel of Christ, and when we consider his almighty power, let us sinners flee from the wrath to come. If new-created unto the image of God in holiness, we shall at length enter the new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(Matthew Henry)
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
You have to stop thinking like a westerner when you think of these things and think like a Jew.
It is western thinking that insists on 72 hours, and ignores all the many other verses that show three days is not a literal 72 hours. And ignores all the many verses showing that any part of a day is counted as a day.
quote:
You strike me, Carol, as one who takes Jesus at his word. I am not at all impressed by cut and paste arguments. Evolutionists have filled libraries with this kind of stuff why their philosophy that reasons God out of existence has to be true... they could cut and paste you and I into a stupor with their circular reasoning and rantings and ravings.
Impressing you is not my purpose John. Whether I write / rewrite the information or paste it, it is still the same information. It is here to be read by whoever wants to, and even if you don't want to read it, there are others who do. What evolutionists do is irrelevant to this discussion.
quote:
If Jesus said it... is it good enough for you?
Simple question. Cut and paste answers will be docked points as evasive. Yes or no is preferred.
Docked points? Evasive? There are no points here. You have no points either to give or to take. Like everyone else, you can express your beliefs, that's all. It isn't your place to tell other people what to do. And, again, whether I write / rewrite the information or paste it, it is the same information.
But yes, I believe Scripture.
Genesis 1
27 So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
31 Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good!
And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day.
The seventh day, the Sabbath, He rested.
Mark 15
42 This all happened on Friday, the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath. As evening approached, 43 Joseph of Arimathea took a risk and went to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. (Joseph was an honored member of the high council, and he was waiting for the Kingdom of God to come.)
The sixth day.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation ; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
"It is finished."
It was not a coincidence that the next day, the seventh day, was a HIGH SABBATH , not a Thursday.
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John Hale
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Tomb time, Bro. Tomb time. My calculations were of his stay in the tomb.
quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
John,
Your calculations are way off. If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, it was during the day, not during that night. So your schedule would have to be like this:
Wednesday, day
Thursday, night and day
Friday, night and day
Saturday, night
with his resurrection coming sometime before sunrise on Saturday. Such a schedule doesn't fit with any of the biblical references.
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TB125
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John,
Your calculations are way off. If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, it was during the day, not during that night. So your schedule would have to be like this:
Wednesday, day
Thursday, night and day
Friday, night and day
Saturday, night
with his resurrection coming sometime before sunrise on Saturday. Such a schedule doesn't fit with any of the biblical references.
--------------------
Bob
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John Hale
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Matthew 12:39-40 (NIV)
39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
And the fact that he rose on the third day (rather than the third night) means it was literally three nights and three days... but it was precisely what Jesus said it would be.
wednesday night --1st night
thurs day --1st day
thursday night --2nd night
fri day --2nd day
friday night --3rd night
satur day --- the 3rd day
for a total of three days and three nights (three nights and three days) certainly not two nights and a day...
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John Hale
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You have to stop thinking like a westerner when you think of these things and think like a Jew. Otherwise you end up with Friday an hour or two before sunset till the wee hours of Sunday morning (a day and a half) counting as three days which the Lord himself (not John Hale or anyone who is arguing for a Wednesday crucifixion date... the Lord Jesus Christ himself who spoke all things into existence) specified "three days and three nights."
You strike me, Carol, as one who takes Jesus at his word. I am not at all impressed by cut and paste arguments. Evolutionists have filled libraries with this kind of stuff why their philosophy that reasons God out of existence has to be true... they could cut and paste you and I into a stupor with their circular reasoning and rantings and ravings.
I simply want to know if Jesus says something, and there is no indicators he is speaking with parabolic metaphor... is what he said trustworthy to you?
If Jesus said it... is it good enough for you?
Simple question. Cut and paste answers will be docked points as evasive. Yes or no is preferred.
Thanks.
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John Hale
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Passover is a sabbath (high sabbath).
Wednesday 14 Nisan Galilean seder / trials / crucifixion
Thursday 15 Nisan Judean seder / feast of unleavened bread / posting of roman guard (the next day was preparation day)
Friday 16 Nisan day of preparation for weekly sabbath
Saturday 17 Nisan weekly sabbath / resurrection just before sunset ending the day
Sunday 18 Nisan in the evening after sunset tomb discovered already empty
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Carol Swenson
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Wednesday Cruci-Fiction
In John 19:31 we have all the evidence we need. It says, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
Some claim that Christ died on Wednesday, and therefore, John 19:31 would mean the following "Thursday" was this high Sabbath day. Problem is, that is NOT the Biblical definition of a high Sabbath day. A high Sabbath occurred when a feast day (In this case it was the Feast of Unleavened Bread) fell on the 7th day weekly Sabbath. Since the Seventh Day is already considered a Sabbath, and the feast days are considered "annual" Sabbaths, (See Lev. 23:23-38) when they fell on the same day, that day would then be considered a HIGH Sabbath day. A "Thursday" or "5th day" of the week would NEVER be considerd a High Sabbath. That is an absolute impossiblity.
PLUS.. notice this, in Luke 23:56 it states the woman did not prepare the body of Jesus on Friday because they, "...rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." Biblical FACT is, the Commandments speak of the Seventh Day Sabbath, not the annual feast day sabbaths.
PLUS, Christ was put to death on the "preparation day," of the week and the preparation day was never on a Wednesday. In all the pages of biblical history, as well as biblical jurisprudence, the preparation day has always been and will always continue to be Friday. This is graphically confirmed in Mark 15:42-43 where is states, "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus."
OR... you can use this...
"Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene." Mark 16:9
Another historic fact many miss is that of a quote made by Justn Matyr. A man that many denominations claim was a godly man. He said, "For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." -First Apology of Justin Martyr, Chapter 67
I implore you to read the following sermon. It will bless you immensely in your knowledge of this Bible truth. Learn from it and share with those loved ones that are being attacked by the master deceiver. He goes into great depth about this so that you will have all you need to combat this deception.
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Three Days and Three Nights
Some of the strongest and most controversial opinions have built up around the statement of Jesus concerning Jonah and the whale. Strangely enough, the chief issue has nothing at all to do with the oft-challenged fact of a man being swallowed by a sea monster. The decisive point for many revolves around the length of time Jonah spent in the stomach of the whale. Here are the exact words Jesus used in describing the experience of the runaway prophet: "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Matthew 12:39-41.
Now this statement of Jesus is significant in more ways than one. In the first place, it positively affirms that the Old Testament story of Jonah did actually take place as the Scriptures record it. But more than that, the event constituted a sign of Christ's own death, and burial, and resurrection. Jesus referred to the preaching of Jonah on two other occasions as a sign to the unbelieving Pharisees.
Today there is a vocal minority of Christians who have made a tremendous issue out of the phrase "three days and three nights." They insist that Jesus used the expression because He was to be in the grave exactly seventy-two hours, not a second more or second less. This conviction has led them to conclude that Christ was crucified on Wednesday afternoon and was resurrected at the same hour late Sabbath afternoon. In this way they account for the full seventy-two hours which they believe Christ spent in the tomb.
Does this interpretation harmonize with the full Bible record on the subject? Does it fit with the many other inspired accounts of the time element involved? Is there other information given in the Word of God which will make it clear exactly how the three days and three nights are to be understood?
Fortunately, we have an abundance of Bible evidence to answer these questions. In fact, on seventeen separate occasions Jesus or His friends spoke of the timetable involving His death and resurrection. Ten times it was specified that the resurrection would take place on the "third day." On five occasions they said, "in" or "within three days." Twice they used the term, "after three days," and one time only Jesus spoke of His death as "three days and three nights."
Without question all of these various expressions are used to describe the very same event. There seems to be no controversy regarding this point. "The third day," "in three days," "after three days," and "three days and three nights" are equivalent terms used in the Bible in reference to the resurrection of Jesus.
Expressions Cannot Be Literal
Now we ask the question: Can all of these expressions be taken in a strictly literal sense and still harmonize with each other? Absolutely not! For example, "after three days" would certainly have to be interpreted as longer than seventy-two hours. "Within three days" could mean anytime less than seventy-two hours, and "three days and three nights" could only mean exactly seventy-two hours to the second. And "the third day" presents even greater problems as we shall notice in a moment.
Does this sound terribly confusing? If so, it is only because men have placed their own interpretation upon the meaning of God's Word. We must let the Bible explain itself, and especially, we must let Christ provide definitions for the words which He spoke. It would be a mammoth mistake to seize upon any one of the expressions used and force its strict compliance with our interpretation without reference to the other sixteen texts on the subject.
Is it possible for all these texts to be explained so that they will not contradict each other? If they cannot be harmonized, then Jesus Himself was guilty of compounding the confusion, because He used all of the expressions at different times in speaking of His death and resurrection. In Matthew 12:40 He said, "three days and three nights," but in Mark 8:31 He said, "after three days." He referred to the same event in John 2:19 as "in three days," and on five occasions He said, "the third day." Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Luke 13:32; 24:46.
Inclusive Reckoning
The only way we can harmonize all of these apparently contradictory statements of Jesus is to understand them in the light of inclusive reckoning of time. This was the method used throughout the Bible in computing time, and we must apply the same method now, unless we want mass confusion. The unreasonable insistence upon the use of twentieth century English idioms of speech to interpret first century Greek or Hebrew has led to some extreme views indeed. Jesus and His friends spoke and wrote in harmony with the common literacy usage of the day, and that usage recognized inclusive reckoning of time. In simple language, this means that any part of a day was counted as a whole day.
Before we turn to the Bible for confirmation of this principle, let us read the authoritative statement of the Jewish Encyclopedia on the matter. "A short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though, of the first day only a few minutes after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day." Vol. 4, p. 475. How clearly this defines the Hebrew method of computing time. Any small part of a day was reckoned as the entire twenty-four hour period. It is the Hebrew form of speech and language. Scores of contradictions would appear in both Old and New Testament if this principle were ignored. We must compare Scripture with Scripture and use the idiom of the language in which the Bible was written. Inclusive reckoning was taken for granted by all writers of the Scripture.
Let us now notice a few examples of this usage in the Bible that will clarify the problem before us. In Genesis 7:4 God said to Noah, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth." But in verse 10 we read, "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth." The marginal reading expresses it as "on the seventh day." Pity the poor chronologer who tries to figure that one out. When did the flood come? In seven days? On the seventh day? Or after seven days? The answer is simple when inclusive reckoning is applied. The day on which God spoke to Noah counted as the first day, and the day on which it started raining was the seventh day. Even if God spoke just ten minutes before the end of that first day, it was still counted as one of the seven. And if it started raining at noon on the last day, it was also counted one of the seven. The same principle is revealed in the circumcision of babies. Genesis 17:12 specifies "he that is eight days old." But Luke 1:59 reads "on the eighth day." Luke 2:21 uses still another expression: "When eight days were accomplished."
Further proof for inclusive reckoning is seen in Joseph's dealing with his brethren. "He put them all together into ward three days. And Joseph said unto them the third day, This do, and live; ... go ye. ..." Genesis 42:17-19. Consider also the tax issue between King Rehoboam and the people. "Come again unto me after three days. ... So ... all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day." 2 Chronicles 10:5, 12.
These examples are only a few of the many which could be cited to establish this important point. The Hebrew usage requires only that some part of each of the days should be involved in the time period.
The Third Day
Now we are ready to apply this clearly established rule to the time Jesus was in the tomb. At least a part of three days had to be included in the period He was actually dead. The most frequent expression Jesus used in describing the resurrection was the "third day." He defended His repetition of the term on the basis of the Scriptures. "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus is behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." Luke 24:46.
The two disciples on the road to Emmaus employed the same expression when they spoke of the terrible events surrounding the crucifixion. Unconscious of the fact that they were talking to Jesus, who had been resurrected earlier that same day, one of them said, "To day is the third day since these things were done." Luke 24:21.
Clearly, those people understood how to count the days and to determine which was the third one. They knew because it was a common idiom of their language. But Jesus did not leave any question in the matter. It almost seems that He anticipated the perplexity of later Christians who might not know about inclusive reckoning. Therefore, He gave such a plain, conclusive explanation of how to locate the third day that no one would ever need to doubt again. "Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following." Luke 13:32, 33.
How simple Jesus made it! Even a child can figure when the third day comes. The third day will always be the day after "to morrow" from any certain event. The first day is counted in its entirety, the whole of the second day, and the third day in its entirety.
Now we can understand the conversation Jesus had with the Jewish leaders and why they interpreted it as they did. He said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:19-21. Later, after the crucifixion, the chief priest said to Pilate, "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night and steal him away." Matthew 27:63, 64.
With Christ's definition of time before us, the picture snaps into clear focus. Speaking prophetically of His own death and resurrection, He said, "To day (crucifixion) and to morrow (in tomb), and the third day I shall be perfected (resurrection)." There are all three days in their sequence. Even though He died in the late afternoon, the entire day would be counted as the first day. The second day would span the Sabbath when He slept in the tomb. Even though He was resurrected in the early hours on the third day, inclusive reckoning would make it one of the three days.
The Resurrection on Sunday
Now the time has come to pinpoint the actual days of the week when these events took place. Again, we are amazed at the perfect harmony of the Scriptures on the subject. There can be no question but that He arose on Sunday, the first day of the week. Mark emphatically states, "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene." Mark 16:9. Sunday is the first day of the week, and that is when He was resurrected. Words could be no plainer. Even the original Greek construction of the text will allow no other meaning. He did not rise from the grave on Saturday, as some contend. Neither was He crucified on Wednesday. There is not a scintilla of Bible evidence that He died on the fourth day of the week.
According to the inspired record, Christ was put to death on the "preparation day," and the preparation day was not Wednesday. In all the pages of biblical history, the preparation day has been Friday. Please read Mark 15:42, 43, "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathaea ... went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus."
Some might question whether this could be one of the ceremonial yearly sabbaths of the ordinance system. Notice these words, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." John 19:31.
The day following the crucifixion was not only the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, but it was a high Sabbath. This means that a yearly Sabbath in that particular year happened to fall on the weekly Sabbath. In this case it was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Luke clearly identified that preparation day as the one immediately preceding the weekly Sabbath. "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared." Luke 23:54-24:1.
Surely there can be no question as to the time elements involved. He died on the preparation day, or the day before the weekly Sabbath. The next day is designated as "the sabbath according to the commandment." Since the commandment says, "The seventh day is the sabbath," we know that this had to be the day we call Saturday. Furthermore, after describing the events of the preparation day in verse 55 and the Sabbath day in verse 56, the very next verse says, "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared." Luke 24:1.
Please take note that after preparing the spices on the afternoon of the crucifixion (Friday), and resting over the Sabbath (Saturday), they came to the tomb with the spices on the first day of the week (Sunday) to do the work of anointing. This was their first opportunity after the Sabbath to carry out the preparations made on Friday afternoon. This is when they discovered that Christ was risen.
If the crucifixion took place on Wednesday, how can we explain why the women waited until Sunday to come to the sepulchre? Why didn't they come Thursday or Friday to anoint His body? Did they not understand that after four days His body would be decomposing and their work of love would be in vain? The answers to these questions constitute the strongest case against a Wednesday crucifixion.
The Bible, in fact, offers incontestable proof that no one would have attempted such an anointing under those circumstances. When Lazarus had been dead four days, Jesus ordered the stone removed from his tomb. Martha, the sister of Lazarus, protested in these words, "Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days." John 11:39.
These words of Martha reveal the fact that no woman of that day would have considered it possible to prepare a body for burial four days after death. To Martha it seemed an irrational act even to open the tomb of Lazarus. To the other women who prepared the spices it would have been equally unreasonable to enter Christ's sepulchre four days after He had been crucified.
In view of the amazing weight of biblical evidence to the contrary, how can some still cling to the Wednesday crucifixion idea? The entire scheme is based upon the twisted interpretation of a single Bible text. The "three days and three nights" phrase is forced into artificial conformity with current English forms of speech, instead of the common usage of the people living at that time.
Those who believe that Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on Saturday base much of their evidence on Matthew 28:1: "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."
Figuring that the first day of the week "dawns" at sundown Saturday night as the Sabbath ends, these people assume that the women discovered the empty tomb in the twilight moments of the Sabbath, just before sundown. They count backwards exactly seventy-two hours and arrive at Wednesday evening just before sundown for the crucifixion.
Is this a valid conclusion? Or is there evidence that the women could not have visited the empty tomb on Saturday evening? There is indeed positive biblical proof that they did not. We find that evidence in Mark's account of the visit to the sepulchre: "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?" Mark 16:1-3.
There is no question about this being an early Sunday morning visit. It is at sunrise. The very same women are named as in Matthew's account. Can we correctly assume that these same women had been to the tomb the night before and found Jesus risen? Impossible. Why? Because of the question they asked as they approached the garden on Sunday morning, "Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?" If they had been there Saturday just before sundown and found the tomb empty, they would have known that the stone was already rolled away from the door. This is absolute proof that they had not been to an empty tomb the day before.
It also proves that Matthew's "dawn" refers to the dawning represented by the sunrise and not sunset. There is no contradiction between the two accounts.
Seventy-Two Hours Not Biblical
Those who insist that Christ was in the grave a full seventy-two hours contend that the three days and three nights must be taken in the fullest literal sense. But such a contention is absolutely contrary to the testimony of the Scriptures. An example of the way the Bible uses the term is found in Esther 4:16. We read these words of Queen Esther to Mordecai: "Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise." Esther 4:16. Do not overlook the fact that they were to fast three days and three nights. Yet almost the next verse tells us, "Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court." Esther 5:1. Here is a perfect example of how three days and three nights terminate on the third day!
We have already learned how Jesus explained the third day. He said "to day, and to morrow, and the third day." Luke 13:32. Please think for a moment! When Jesus walked with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus on Sunday afternoon, after the resurrection, Cleopas said, "To day is the third day since these things were done." Luke 24:21.
No one denies that this was on Sunday. But listen, if Jesus had been crucified on Wednesday afternoon, Cleopas would have had to say "To day is the fifth day since these things were done." Count it for yourself - Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and most of Sunday! Later the same day - the first day of the week - Jesus made this statement: "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." Luke 24:46. Who was right? Jesus was right and Cleopas was right! But those who claim the Wednesday crucifixion are wrong. Christ died on Friday, the preparation for the Sabbath - that was the first day. He rested in the tomb on the Sabbath according to the commandment - that was the second day. He arose on the first day of the week which was Sunday - that was the third day! How simple!
The proponents of a Wednesday crucifixion use a devious argument to explain away the words of Cleopas on the road to Emmaus. They contend that he was not counting the three days from the time of Christ's death, but rather from the sealing of the tomb by the Roman authorities the day after he was crucified. For this theoretical conjecture there is not a fragment of evidence in the Bible. Cleopas did speak about the trial of Jesus and certain events leading up to His crucifixion. By taking a bit of exegetical license one could possibly reach back to those events from which to reckon the third day. But by no stretch of the imagination could any point beyond the death of Christ be used in computing the three days.
In every related text the third day is counted from the time of His death on the cross.
Matthew said He would "be killed, and be raised again the third day." Matthew 16:21. Mark wrote that He must "be killed, and after three days rise again." Mark 8:31. Luke's account reports that He must "be slain, and be raised the third day." Luke 9:22.
Repeatedly, the Scriptures emphasize the death of Jesus as the starting point of the three days. To begin counting a full day after the crucifixion is not only unbiblical but grossly imaginary. The sealing of the tomb is never once referred to in connection with the period of time He was dead.
The expression "three days and three nights" does not indicate a precise computation of hours, minutes, seconds. We read that "forty days and forty nights" were spent by Christ in the wilderness of temptation. However, the writers of two of the gospels state it simply as a period of "forty days," showing that inspiration was not pinpointing the hours or minutes.
The Four Days of Cornelius
Now let us consider a final clear-cut example of inclusive reckoning that should lay this point to rest with every open-minded reader. It is taken from the New Testament and reveals graphically how days were numbered in the days of Jesus. In Acts 10:3 Cornelius "saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him."
Follow the story carefully now. He was instructed in the vision to send men to Joppa and call for Peter. "And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and ... he sent them to Joppa. On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray." Verse 7-9. While praying he had a vision, and the men knocked at his door when his vision ended. Verse 17. Please notice that this is one day after Cornelius received his angel visitor.
Peter invited the men to come in. He "lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him." Verse 23. Take note that this is now the second day since the men were dispatched by Cornelius. "And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them." Verse 24. This is the third day since Cornelius had his angelic vision. But don't miss this point - a few minutes later, in talking to Peter, Cornelius said, "Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing." Verse 30.
Now we get the picture in mind - it had been exactly three days, to the very hour. Yet Cornelius said, "Four days ago." How could he say it was four days when it was only three days? Because he used inclusive reckoning, which meant that parts of four days were involved. In the same way the Bible described the time of Christ's death as three days and three nights even though it was only a part of those three days.
Passover Week Proves Resurrection
Now we are brought to another line of evidence which constitutes the final proof positive that the resurrection of Jesus occurred on Sunday. It was to this particular evidence that Paul turned in his persuasive Corinthian discourse on the resurrection. He said, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures." 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.
It is most significant that Paul confirmed the death of Jesus, and also His resurrection on the third day, on the basis of the Scriptures. Evidently, Paul understood that the Old Testament contained prophecies which set forth the time sequence of the crucifixion and the resurrection. According to Paul, Jesus had to rise on the third day in order to fulfill the word of God, Furthermore, Jesus also declared, "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." Luke 24:46.
Is there such a Scripture - an "It is written" - in the Old Testament which can establish the actual day that Christ was raised from the dead? Yes! And it had to do with the special annual observance of the Passover service.
In Leviticus 23:5, 6 we read about the first two days of that solemn Passover week. "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord."
Right now we will not take the time to establish the days of the week for these special observances. It is not essential to the proof we are seeking to establish. Just let your mind grasp this truth - the fourteenth day of the month was the slaying of the passover, and the fifteenth day was the feast of unleavened bread.
Our next question is: What happened on the sixteenth day of the month? We shall now prove from the Scriptures that the sheaf of the firstfruits was offered on that sixteenth day. That service was first celebrated when the children of Israel came into the promised land. God commanded it in these words: "When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it." Leviticus 23:10, 11.
What Sabbath is the verse talking about? The weekly Sabbath or the yearly passover sabbath? The answer appears as we read the actual experience of their entrance into the land, recorded by Joshua. God told them that after entering the promised land they should offer the firstfruits to Him before eating of the first harvest themselves. Joshua described how the Israelites passed over the Jordan while the river was flooded at the harvest time. "For Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest." Joshua 3:15. This is very important to understand because the grain was ready for reaping, and they would more quickly be able to eat of the land and offer the first sheaf to the Lord.
After crossing dryshod through the flooded Jordan, after God rolled back the waters, the children of Israel camped at Gilgal. "And it came to pass, when the priests that bare up the ark of the covenant of the Lord were come up out of the midst of Jordan, and the soles of the priests' feet were lifted up unto the dry land, that the waters of Jordan returned unto their place, and flowed over all his banks, as they did before. And the people came up out of Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and encamped in Gilgal, in the east border of Jericho." Joshua 4:18, 19.
Now we come to the next event which took place four days later. "And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho." Joshua 5:10.
In strict obedience to the commandment of the Lord, the grateful but weary wanderers stopped to slay the Passover lamb on the fourteenth day of the first month. The next verse tells us what happened on the following day, "And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day." Joshua 5:11.
Please notice that they observed the feast of unleavened bread on the fifteenth day of the month, following the slaying of the Passover lamb on the fourteenth. They also ate the last of the old corn, because the new crop of grain was ready to harvest. We continue reading to discover what happened on the next day, which was the sixteenth day of the month. "And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year." Joshua 5:12.
The sheaf of firstfruits was to be offered to the Lord before they ate of the harvest of the land. Since they began to eat of the fruit of the land on the sixteenth day, following the feast of unleavened bread, it is certain that they offered the firstfruits also on that day. Please remember that the Lord had commanded them to offer the firstfruits of the harvest "on the morrow after the sabbath." Leviticus 23:11. It was indeed on the day following the yearly sabbath of unleavened bread that the wave sheaf was offered, and the new harvest began to be eaten by the people that selfsame day.
Now the sequence of Passover events appears in sharp focus, and we will list them in the exact order revealed in the Scriptures.
1. Fourteenth day - Slaying of Passover lamb,
2. Fifteenth day - Feast of Unleavened Bread,
3. Sixteenth day - Firstfruits of harvest presented.
By way of historical confirmation of these points, here is the testimony of Josephus, a contemporary of Jesus and a historian: "Nisan ... is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month ... and which was called the Passover. ... The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the Passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days. ... But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth. ... They also at his anticipation of the firstfruits of the earth, sacrifice a lamb, as a burnt offering unto God." Book III, Chapter X, par. 5, pp. 79, 80.
Christ Our Passover
You may be wondering how these facts relate to the time of Christ's death and resurrection. Here is where the beauty of the Bible reveals itself. Jesus was the One to whom all those types and ceremonies pointed. He was the true Passover Lamb. That is why John cried out, "Behold the Lamb of God!" John 1:36. Paul showed how Jesus fulfilled the Passover: "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, ... but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8.
This is exactly why Jesus died on the fifteenth of Nisan. He did it to fulfill the Scriptures. Paul declared that "Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures." 1 Corinthians 15:3.
But just as surely as Jesus died on a certain day according to the Scriptures, He also "rose again the third day, according to the scriptures." 1 Corinthians 15:4. He not only was our Passover, but He was also the firstfruits! Paul ties it specifically to the resurrection: "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." 1 Corinthians 15:20. Again in verse 23, "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
No wonder, then, that Paul wrote so confidently about the resurrection on the third day according to the Scriptures. Christ rose from the dead as the firstfruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day that the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord.
We can now understand why Jesus and His followers used the expression "third day" more than any other to describe the resurrection. Prophecy had decreed hundreds of years earlier that He would be the fulfillment of the types and shadows surrounding the Passover observance. As the firstfruits, it was essential for Christ to be "harvested" and "presented" before the Lord "on the morrow after the sabbath." In the year of the crucifixion the Feast of Unleavened Bread Sabbath coincided with the weekly Sabbath, making it "a high day." John 19:31. It was the next day after that Sabbath that Jesus arose from the grave - on Sunday.
The biblical proof of those three successive days during Passover week completely shatters the Wednesday crucifixion theory. He had to die on Friday to fulfill the Scriptures concerning His death as the Passover lamb. He had to be resurrected on the third day after His death to meet the scriptural type of the firstfruits. Only three days can be involved in the time sequence, or the Word of God is broken.
In the light of this tremendous, undeniable evidence of the Word of God, we can positively affirm that Jesus was not, and could not have been, resurrected on the Sabbath. Neither could He have been crucified on a Wednesday.
The issues here are much deeper than most people realize. Had Christ not fulfilled every single Old Testament type and shadow pointing forward to His atoning death and resurrection, He would be an imposter and fraud. It was absolutely essential that every prophecy of the Messiah should be fulfilled in His life and death. In a special sense, the prefiguring of His victory over the grave was the capstone of hope for both Old and New Testament believers. Just as the sheaf of firstfruit grain held the promise and assurance of abundant harvest, even so our blessed Lord's glorious resurrection is the guarantee of a mighty harvest in the resurrection soon to take place. "Because I live, ye shall live also." John 14:19.
Shadows Which Are Contrary To Us
The tragedy is that some Christians still cling to the dead types and ceremonies just as though the great antitype had never come. Because Jesus was the true Sin Offering, the daily animal sacrifices ceased the very moment He died on the cross. The veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom, signifying that there was to be no more sprinkled blood in the holy place. Matthew 27:51. That slain lamb on the altar had been only a shadow pointing forward to the death of the Messiah. When the shadow led up to the body which cast it, there could not possibly be any shadow beyond. Therefore, sacrifices became only empty rituals after the atoning death of Jesus.
In the same manner, the yearly Passover service, with its types and shadows, pointed forward to the sacrifice of the true Passover Lamb on the cross. The annual typical lamb, the old leaven, and the yearly wave sheaf were the shadow leading up to the body, which was Christ. After His death and resurrection, the old observances would be just as meaningless as the daily sacrifice of sin offerings. In a sense, to continue observing the type after the antitype came would be a denial that Christ was the true fulfillment. This is why Paul spoke of the fulfilled types as being contrary to the Christians. "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, ... or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:14, 16, 17.
Please notice the clear evidence that meat and drink offerings, as well as certain shadowy holy days and sabbaths, came to an end when Jesus died. Now let us ask: Which sabbaths were nailed to the cross and canceled by the death of Jesus? Paul specified that they were "sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come." This certainly could not mean the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. It came into existence before sin came in to the world. It could not be a shadow. Shadows were introduced as a result of sin and pointed forward to the deliverance from sin. But there were other yearly sabbaths which were shadows, and they are specifically described in Leviticus 23:24, 25. They fell on certain set days of the month and came only once a year. "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, ... an holy convocation. ... Ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord." This was the annual feast of trumpets. It was called a sabbath, but it was a yearly, shadowy sabbath.
Three other annual sabbaths are described in that same chapter, one of them being the Passover sabbath and another the feast of unleavened bread. Verses 37 and 38 sum up all of them in these words: "These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the Lord."
These texts show without question that the shadowy annual sabbaths were distinct from the weekly sabbaths of the Lord which were observed each seventh day. The meat and drink clearly had reference to the various offerings which were required on those ceremonial sabbaths. These were nailed to the cross! The Passover and feast of unleavened bread were included in those sabbaths which were blotted out.
No Christian today needs to celebrate those annual feast days and typical observances. Paul implies that to do so is to go contrary to Christian principles. They are now dead forms, bereft of any meaning. Just as the animal sacrifice for sin is meaningless since Christ came, so the other types and shadows are empty since the real Lamb has died. This is why Paul wrote, "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven ... but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8.
May we fasten our faith upon the true Sin Offering, the true Passover, and the true Firstfruits, refusing to be drawn back to hollow forms and empty shadows.
http://www.remnantofgod.org/wedcruci-fiction.htm
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
It is simply the way one can count back to confirm what the reliable date calculating sites indicate.
It goes into not just counting weeks but accounting for leap years years of Jubilee etc. It is very entailed and arduous but can be done. My documentation of when I did it went bye bye about two computers ago.
This is all certainly human reasoning. With days added, and days lost, and leap years, and months added, and the inaccuracies of every calendar made by men, and the changing through at least four different calendars, and not even knowing for sure what calendar was in use at the time of the crucifixion, still you think the calendar calculator made by men can be accurate TO THE DAY over a tme period of 1,980 years?
quote:
The scriptures you cite as applicable to me or the method of verification are misapplied... and very telling.
They are not misapplied, but they are "very telling". They help to establish the dates.
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John Hale
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It is simply the way one can count back to confirm what the reliable date calculating sites indicate.
It goes into not just counting weeks but accounting for leap years years of Jubilee etc. It is very entailed and arduous but can be done. My documentation of when I did it went bye bye about two computers ago.
The scriptures you cite as applicable to me or the method of verification are misapplied... and very telling. With the hopes that you do so without realizing it, I am pointing this out to you as a learned colleague's attempt to defend that which they cannot defend as well as they thought they could.
We all have resorted to this at one time or another. So I am not trying to make a big deal out of this. I am simply trying to be a brother to you in the faith and point out where you are resorting to human reason to defend a pet peeve / personal opinion / predetermined belief / or a belief you bought into because of your admiration for the one who taught it to you...
Again, we've all done this.
It's part of the process of growing in the spirit that we stop relying on the flesh (especially when it comes to reason). For the flesh reasoning / human rationale is where traditions lauded on par with holy writ come from...
I am reminded how (as an example for us all on this regard) how human rationale put the Lord of Glory the Ultimate Innocence on the cross in the stead of Yeshua Barabbas thief, seditionists and murderer.
Contrast Matthew 16:17 with Matthew 16:23.
Again, I speak this to us all so that we may weed out the huamnism in self and learn to reason and live by the Spirit of God striving to learn and to teach the Word of God at the forsaking of all else.
God bless you.
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Carol Swenson
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Now we're counting weeks back to 30 AD?
John relates that the Jews in rebuttal to Jesus' statement, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," said, "Forty and six years was this temple in building, and will thou rear it up in three days?" (Jn. 2:19-20). Their statement is significant because the temple at that time was still under construction and was not completed until A.D. 64. The temple work was started by Herod the Great in the eighteenth year of his reign, or 19 B.C. Counting forty-six years from 19 B.C. brings us to 27 A.D. Jesus was in Jerusalem for the observance of the first Passover of His ministry (27 A.D.) when this discussion took place (Jn. 2:13). It is thought that John records three other Passovers observed by Jesus during His ministry (Jn. 5:1; 6:4; 12: 1). Jesus' death came in 30 A.D., three years after His first Passover observance.
Any calculations designed to establish the date of His death must take into account that Jesus came to Bethany six days before Passover (Jn. 12: 1). Passover, which identifies the day the lamb was killed (Mk. 14:1,12; Lk. 22:1,7), came on the 14th day of the first month, Nisan (Ex. 12:6; Lev. 23:5). In the year Jesus was crucified, the 14th came on Thursday, six days after Jesus came to Bethany.
He ate with His disciples Thursday evening, was arrested that night, and crucified the next day, Friday Nissan 15.
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John Hale
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And the Jews have been keeping track of the weeks all the way back to the first Passover. And after all... the day of the week things happened is what we are discussing here isn't it?
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Carol Swenson
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It's more than that. There are so many variables and inaccuracies in the calendars themselves that a converter cannot be programmed.
Julian and Gregorian Calendars:
The Julian calendar was established by Julius Caesar in what is now 46BC. After various changes by subsequent Roman emperors, it was more or less fixed by about 7AD. Unfortunately, the length of the average Julian calender year is slightly longer (about 11.5 minutes) than the average "solar" year...that is, the time it takes for the earth to complete one orbit around the sun is less than a year according to the calendar. This puts the calendar out of sync with the sun by about 7 days every 1000. That is, holidays, solstices & equinoxes occur earlier and earlier each year on the calendar. By the 1500, the error had accumulated to 12 days.
In 1582, Catholic Pope Gregory decreed a new calendar that dropped 10 days (a miscalculation of the accumulated calendar error that was two days too short): That year, in those countries that switched to the new "Gregorian calendar", October 4 was followed by October 15. To minimize future errors, 3 leap years out of 400 years were dropped. The new rule is that century years, ending in "00", must be evenly divisible by 400, rather than 4, in order to be a leap year: 1900 was not a leap year, but 2000 was. This minimized the accumulation of future errors, but it is not perfect because, now, the average calendar year is slightly shorter (+/-26 seconds) than the solar year. But, it now takes about 10,000 years for the error to accumulate to 3 days.
As noted above, the biggest problem with converting dates between calendars derives from different countries having adopted the Gregorian calendar at different times. The Polish kingdom adopted it as Pope Gregory decreed, in 1582, as did most predominantly Catholic countries (France, Italy, most of Germany, Holland, etc). But Great Britain and its colonies did not adopt it until September 14, 1752 (which immediately followed Sept 2). Russia, and Lithuania, did not adopt it until February 15, 1918, which immediately followed Feb 1. The last country to adopt the Gregorian calendar was Turkey, in 1927. To make a completely accurate conversion, you must know the date the Gregorian calendar went into effect into the country of choice.
When different dates are quoted. they may be identified by letter (J, Julian; G, Gregorian; H, Hebrew), or Julian dates may be referred to as" Old Style", OS, & Gregorian as "New Style", NS. If both dates are listed, the first will usually be the Julian date. The abbreviations, BC & AD, by the way, are usually replaced with BCE and CE in Jewish writings: "Before the Common Era" & "Common Era".
Hebrew Calendar:
If someone told you that Hanukkah occurs on the same date every year, would you say he was wrong? He's not...if he is referring to the Hebrew calender, which fixes Hanukkah as the 25th of Kislev every year. The problem is that the date varies on the Gregorian calendar because the year lengths are different in the two calendars. The Hebrew calendar is often referred to as a lunar calendar, but it actually takes the motions of both the sun and moon, and the earth's rotation, into account. In an attempt to keep in sync with the solar year, the Hebrew calendar has a complicated series of leap years (7 years out of each 19 in which an entire extra month, called Adar II, is added to keep the calendar in sync with the sun. In addition, a day is added or subtracted in different years to keep Rosh Hashonah from falling on the sabbath, and Yom Kippur from falling adjacent to the sabbath.
The Hebrew calendar is approximately twice as accurate as the Julian calendar was, but still not perfect. It accumulates an error of a full day approximately every 216 years: In its, approximately, 1600 years of existence, it is out of sync with the solar year by about 6-7 days, vs about 14 days, up to now, for the Julian. . This current Hebrew calendar was promulgated by Hillel II in the Jewish year 4119 (dated from creation, not from the origin of the Jews), which was Julian year 358/359AD. Because Hillel II was part of the Second Sanhedrin, and it is assumed that only a similar body has the authority to alter the calendar, the Hebrew calendar will not be modified to correct for the accumulated error unless, and until, another Sanhedrin comes into existence.
http://www.olenberg.org/forms/calendar_candles.html
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I've used various calendar converters. They all give different results. They can only do what they're programmed to do, and they are not accurate going all the way back to 30 AD.
The variances were not in properly calibrating Gregorian with Julian (which this one does)... and if you go back the painstaking route of mapping two millennia of weeks (M-S) you will find it accurate.
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Carol Swenson
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I've used various calendar converters. They all give different results. They can only do what they're programmed to do, and they are not accurate going all the way back to 30 AD.
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John Hale
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The evidence says otherwise.
Even if your interpretations of the scriptures and "evening" (which is at both ends of a day btw to non-Hebraic thinkers) and the Hebrew phrase is better translated "between the evenings"
but even if your evidence was on target... 15 Nisan was Thursday that year.
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Carol Swenson
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Why Does Pesach / Passover Start On The 15th Of Nissan And Last Until The 22nd Of Nissan?
Exodus 12:18 in the Passover story again states the words of God to Moses:
"In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening".
Since the Jewish day begins at sundown and ends at sundown, this "commandment" or "mitzvah" from God is interpreted to mean that the 14th day "at evening" means "after sundown" and hence the start of the 15th day of Nissan. Similarly, the twenty-first day "at evening" also is interpreted as "after sundown" and hence, the 22nd day of Nissan.
When we look at Lev 23:5-6 and Dt 16:4 together it becomes clear that the Passover Sacrifice is brought at the end of the 14th of the First Month between the two evenings and eaten that same evening on the 15th of the First Month. The period of "between the two evenings" is reckoned as both the end of the 14th (Lev 23:5) and the beginning of the 15th (Dt 16:4)!
"And on the first day of Unleavened Bread (Passover), when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, `Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?'" (Mark 14:12; also Mark 14:13-17; Matt. 26:17-20; Luke 22:7-16) The first day on which the leaven was removed was Passover. On Nissan 14, the day the "Passover lamb was being sacrificed," Jesus was still alive. The Last Supper, the Pascal supper, was yet to be eaten, in the evening of Nissan 14. Jesus would be sacrificed the following day.
The crucifixion was Friday, Nissan 15, 30 AD.
The first fruits of the resurrection, our Lord Jesus Christ, was on the first Sunday during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This was on Nisan 17 in 30 AD.
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John Hale
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Just so there is no controversy about the Gregorian calendar in that same entry. Note the variations of dates actually two days between the Julian and the Gregorian... read up on the differences and the date advances.
The one consistency in history has been the Jewish keeping track of the seven day week for nearly 3500 years. That was the arduous study I did some years ago to come up with what the cited web site provides for you at the click of a mouse.
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John Hale
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UPDATE: Sorry, folks. I was in such haste (and dealing with a viral computer infection when I wrote the previous information based on a 31 CE date. I left off a calibration at the website I linked to ( http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/ ) resetting the Jewish link to 14 Nisan which I since did and it shows that 30 CE is the correct year.
It had been some years since I tracked this down through other very arduous means confronting a dear mentor of mine with the evidence (who still clings to the 32 CE date btw).
But when properly calibrated the calendar clearly shows that only 30 CE is even close and 14 Nisan that year was a Wednesday.
how ironic that the mentor was the rebel rouser who got me to rethink the traditional Friday - Sunday but would not alter his beliefs to fit the facts ...
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TB125
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Carol,
I actually had found Kenneth Doig's book in 2006 when I cited it in a previous discussion I had with a contact at that time who had some of the same questions regarding the crucifixion of Jesus that we are discussing.
Some of the problems in these calculations are also due to the fact that the Sadducees figured that the day started at sunrise while the Pharisees used sunset as the start of a new day. So these calculations of days and even of years was not a simple matter at that time.
Thanks for your additional commentary on this complicated matter.
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Bob
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Carol,
You must have just edited your last post. When you go to the site of Kenneth Doig's book, you will find several chapters on this matter in addition to those that I have cited. Here are two other chapters from his book that add more details to his chronology: "The Sign of Jonah" at http://doig.net/NTC19.htm and "It Is the Third Day" at http://doig.net/NTC22.htm. The dating of these events is apparently not a simple matter just from the biblical records themselves, so I don't think that John could figure this out just from the Bible.
I did edit my post – I started to say that earlier I was going to give you the link to Kenneth Doig's book. We must have both found it at almost the same time.
John mentioned the 173,880 days of Daniel’s prophecy. Most people who calculate the 173,880 days come up with a crucifixion year of 32 or 33 AD, depending on which calendar and what method they use, and if they think the decree was 444 or 445 BCE.
Here is some interesting information concerning the tearing of the temple veil that supports a crucifixion year of 30 AD. It quotes Alfred Edersheim, Josephus, Jerome, and the Jewish Talmud:
Says the Jewish Talmud in Yoma 39b of the events which occurred in 30 A.D.:
“Forty years before the Temple was destroyed [i.e., 40 years before 70 A.D., or in 30 A.D.] . . .the gates of the Hekel [Holy Place] opened by themselves, until Rabbi Yohanan B. Zakkai rebuked them [the gates] saying, Hekel, Hekel, why alarmist thou us? We know that thou art destined to be destroyed...”
For the huge doors of the Temple behind the Veil to open, of their own accord, or in association with the great earthquake, would cause them to pull powerfully against the Veil, and with the lintel falling, at the same time, could have torn it in two from top to bottom.
This same year, 30 A.D., the Sanhedrin had to abandon the Chamber of Hewn Stones, near the Holy Place in the Temple, which was its official seat or location. This was about 40 yards southeast of the entrance to the Holy Place. In 30 A.D. the Sanhedrin had to move to another location, called “The Trading Place,” farther to the east and a much less significant spot. To be forced to move from a beautiful, gorgeous, awesome location in the Temple to a spot much less beautiful, esteemed, and reverential, must have seemed a terrible “put down.” Says the Talmud:
“Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin was BANISHED (from the Chamber of Hewn Stone) and sat in the trading station (on the Temple Mount)” - (Shabbat 15a).
Forty years before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. is 30 A.D. - the very year of the crucifixion of the Messiah!
THE MYSTERIOUS EVENTS OF THE YEAR 30 A.D.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/mysteriousevents.html
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Where in the Bible does it tell us the year Christ was crucified?
If it is unclear to you what day of the week it was... what difference does the year it happened make?
But just so you know that by taking the whole of scripture we can show it was 173,880 days after Artaxerxes Longimanus penned the decree in 445 BCE to rebuild Jerusalem.
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TB125
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Carol,
You must have just edited your last post. When you go to the site of Kenneth Doig's book, you will find several chapters on this matter in addition to those that I have cited. Here are two other chapters from his book that add more details to his chronology: "The Sign of Jonah" at http://doig.net/NTC19.htm and "It Is the Third Day" at http://doig.net/NTC22.htm The dating of these events is apparently not a simple matter just from the biblical records themselves, so I don't think that John could figure this out just from the Bible.
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Bob
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TB125
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Carol,
The most complete examination of this entire matter is provided by Kenneth E. Doig in his book, "New Testament Chronology". For a thorough examination of the various possible dates for Jesus' crucifixion see Part IV, http://doig.net/NTCIV.htm. For his commentary on The Preparation for the Sabbath see http://doig.net/NTC18.htm. In regard to the year of Jesus' crucifixion, he covers that matter in chapter 24, "The 30CE Crucifixion", http://doig.net/NTC24.htm. I think that his examination and explanation of all of the details regarding these events is probably the most thorough presentation of this matter that can be cited. I hope this helps in this challenging discussion.
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Bob
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Carol Swenson
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Where in the Bible does it tell us the year Christ was crucified?
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John Hale
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Um, ok... but the biblical evidence presented and the actual words used by the Lord Jesus ought to be enough to trump any... any doctrines of mere men (Roman Catholic / Protestant / Denominational / local congregation OR personal opinion).
It's a matter of taking God at his word.
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TB125
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Friends,
Aside from what is in our "hearts" and what has been taught by the Roman Catholic Church, I think that this matter of our understanding of the calendar sequence of events involved in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus probably will be determined by our perspective on the Sabbath days that were observed that week. The crucial question is this: did the "high" Sabbath occur on Thursday or Saturday of that week? And was the "day of preparation" Wednesday or Friday? When we have a clear understanding of these days, the schedule should be clarified. But the biblical references themselves may not be precise enough to give a clear understanding of these details, so we may have to depend upon the Spirit's guidance to reach an appropriate conclusion regarding this matter. I'll keep studying the matter.
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Bob
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Carol Swenson
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Our Lord Jesus Christ will not judge you by what others have said or done. He will not judge you by what the RCC has done. He will judge YOU by what is in YOUR heart.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Ephesians 4:31)
quote:
Carol do you wonder what was in Yahshua's heart?
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (Matthew 23:37)
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (Luke 23:34)
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becauseHElives
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dear carol ,I do watch over my heart with all diligence....I love those that hate me, I forgive those that persecute me,
but this has nothing to do with that....this is about a doctrine/religion that is filling hell to overflowing porportions!
i use he term "Roman Catholic Wh!ore "
continually because it is "Roman Catholic Wh!ore " that has the Church in the condition we are in today....
Hitler only killed 6 million Jews in comparison to the 12 million Christians "Roman Catholic Wh!ore " killed because they would not except Roman Catholic Wh!ore's lies during the Inquisition!
What in my heart is a love so great for the scriptures nothing else matters.
why did Yahshua so vehemently condemned the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees?
Yahshua when He spoke of the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees called them what they were snake, vipers,spewers of poison, waiting to infect any possible person with their distortion of truth .....
Carol do you wonder what was in Yahshua's heart?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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Roman Catholic Wh!ore
I don't agree with Catholic teachings, or Mormon, or JW, or other cults. I especially dislike the beliefs of the Family International. But it is enough to say I disagree. I don't need to spew the venom of hatred and filthy language all over the forum. The fact that you do makes me wonder what is in your heart.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12)
Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life. (Proverbs 4:23)
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becauseHElives
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carol i did read your article...it stinks with acceptance of Roman Catholic Wh!ore teachings....
quote:
Were the three days and three nights that Jesus was in the grave a full 72 hours?
Yahshua's triumphant entrance on a donkey in to Jerusalem was exact.... His Death, Burial and Resurrection and Pentecost were exactly timed....every star in the heavens is in it's exact spot.....
turn to Matthew 12:40, and notice Christ's own prophecy pertaining to His death, burial, and resurrection. "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40)." "Three days and three nights" means seventy-two hours. Jesus defined the length of a day in John 11:9. Our Lord said, "Are there not twelve hours in a day?" Well, if there are twelve hours in a day, then there are twelve hours in a night. And therefore, three days and three nights would be 72 hours. Anything less than 72 hours would not fulfill the prophecy of Jonah or the words of Jesus Christ.
the vast majority of Christians accept the Friday-to-Sunday burial of Christ lie because The Roman Catholic Wh!ore has made it tradition....
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)." This is a tradition not taught in the Bible. Ash Wednesday and Lent also are not in the Bible. Even the word "Easter" is pagan, and it is not found in the Bible. In the King James Version the word "Easter" does occur in Acts 12:4, but is a mistranslation. The word "Easter" comes from the word "Ish-tar" and is the same as Ashtaroth, a pagan deity. We celebrate the resurrection of Christ again from the dead.
In order to explain the Good Friday tradition, the proponents say that Christ was buried during parts of three days and nights. That is Christ was buried for part of Friday, part of Saturday, and a part of Sunday.
Sometimes people ask, "Didn't the Jews count part of a day a whole day or part of a night as a whole night?" Whenever you have the expression "day and night" mentioned together in the Hebrew Scriptures, it always means a full day and a full night. For example, "And the evening and the morning were the first day (Genesis 1:8)"; "And the evening and morning were the second day (Genesis 1:13)"; "And the evening and morning were the third day (Genesis 1:13)"; and so on. Other examples are Esther 4:16; 5:1; II Samuel 30:12-13 and Jonah 1:17, where you will find the expression "three days and three nights," and in every instance it means full days and full nights - not part of a day and part of a night.
Let's see what the scriptures teach us as we look at an example in the life of Christ. The Scripture says, "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered (Matthew 4:2)." Jesus fasted forty days and forty nights. If we say, as some do, that "three days and three nights" does not mean "three days and three nights", then we must also say that "forty days and forty nights" does not mean "forty days and forty nights." Where do we stop? Do we say that we really can't be sure about anything? Of course not! We believe the Bible to be literal.
Part of the confusion has come from verses like John 19:31. This verse says, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day (for that Sabbath day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." The Sabbath in John 19:31 is not the regular Saturday Sabbath. It was the Passover Sabbath, which occurred on Thursday of the crucifixion week. Note that John 19:31 says, "For that Sabbath day was an high day." If it were talking of the Saturday Sabbath, then Christ would have been crucified on Friday. All the feast days God gave to Israel were considered Sabbaths though they did not fall on Saturday. Jesus was crucified on the preparation (Wednesday) of the Sabbath (Passover Sabbath) which was Thursday.
Now at what time of the day did Jesus die? It was around three in the afternoon on Wednesday. "And it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: And having said thus, he gave up the ghost (Luke 23:44-46)." When it says the ninth hour, it means the ninth hour since the break of day. In other words, it was three o'clock in the afternoon. Jesus was taken away from the cross and hurriedly buried the same afternoon before sundown or 6:00 p.m.
Now remember that the Jewish day always begins at sundown or at about 6:oo p.m. Our day begins at midnight, but the Jewish day began at sunset. In Leviticus 23:32, the Lord said, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath."
If you count 72 hours from late Wednesday afternoon at around 6:00 p.m., then Jesus would have been in the tomb until late Saturday evening at about 6:00 p.m.
So, a Sunday morning resurrection is not what the Bible teaches. We believe that Jesus was resurrected on Saturday evening at about 6:00 p.m. Jesus was placed in the tomb at around 6:00 p.m. on Wednesday. Seventy-two hours later would be at around 6:00 p.m. on Saturday, exactly when the first day began (Sunday). Even at this hour the Jewish Sunday night begins at Saturday night at 6:00 p.m.
When the women arrived at the tomb early Sunday morning, Jesus was already gone. The Gospel is summed up in I Corinthians 15:3-4, "...Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." Those who arrived early Sunday morning simply discovered an empty tomb. The angel said, "He is not here, for He is risen (Luke 24:6)." So the discovery occurred in the morning. Not the resurrection.
One objection to a Wednesday crucifixion is found in Luke 24:21, which says, "But we trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done." This conversation takes place on Sunday, the day of resurrection. The answer is found in the word "since." Counting from this verse, Sunday is the third day, Saturday the second day, Friday is the first day SINCE the Passover. The Thursday Passover (Jewish reckoning) had its night on what we would call Wednesday night and twilight of that night, meaning between 3:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m., is when Christ was crucified. The twilight of Thursday afternoon would have counted as the twilight of Friday night, which began at 6:00 p.m. by Jewish reckoning. So we see there is no conflict.
The real issue is not really what day was Christ crucified on, but the need to be careful Bible students, lest we miss what the Bible teaches about how to be saved. We know that nothing could wash away our sins but the blood of Jesus Christ. If you have not trusted Jesus Christ and His shed blood as your only means of reaching heaven, then do so now.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
Are you saying Tyndale the man or Tyndale the publishing house?
BTW neither trump the Bible.
Did Tyndale the man write the NLT?
None of us trump the Bible.
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John Hale
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Calculate
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
type in the year 30 and calculate and scroll down to the Hebrew section.
It says Nisan 28 3791 (Wednesday) putting passover that year on a Wednesday (Nisan 14).
31 CE Passover was on a Monday (14 Nisan making Seder on 15 Nisan on Tuesday).
32 CE Passover was on Sunday Seder Monday.
Earlier than 30 CE you begin to corrupt the 173,880 day prophecy of Daniel 9 (69 of the 70 Weeks).
33 CE is a Thursday Passover Friday Seder but this also corrupts the 70 Weeks prophecy by running long (over 183,880 days).
UPDATE: Sorry, folks. I was in such haste (and dealing with a viral computer infection when I wrote this. The 30 CE year is the correct year and as you see in the calendar for yourself that 14 Nisan that year was a Wednesday.
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