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Topic: To tithe or not to tithe? Long read.....
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Carol Swenson
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posted
I agree Betty. We should all help to support our pastor and the church we attend, and we should give to the poor. When I say "should", I mean giving from the heart.
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Betty Louise
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Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
Pastors are not in houses now but they should be fed from the house that they preach in, and should not have to be working 40 hour week while trying to fit in time to Preach and visit the sick of the Church.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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When I think of a Church I don't automatically think of tithing. I think about whether they are preaching the truth of the Gospel.
I guess I look at tithing different because my Uncle who has passed on, was a Pastor and my sister who has passed on. was a Preacher's wife. There were times that my Uncle's Church there were chickens given as tithed. I also knew of times that my sister did not have the money for toothpaste. Church members who tithe regularly help insure that the lights stay on at the Church, the toilets have water to flush them with and the Pastor's children have food on the table.
While there are mega Churches with Pastors living in mansions there are also Churches where Pastor's drive old cars and live in parsonages that need work.
Like I have said I would never tell anyone to tithe but I sure would not try to talk someone out of tithing if they felt like me it was God's will.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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I think this is a good study on the subject:
quote:
From God's point of view, just how "successful" is a church whose members, when they hear the word "church," immediately think of the word "tithe" instead of Christ?
http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar56.htm
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Betty Louise
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I believe it is taught because it is fair. 10% goes by your income, poor and rich give according to what God gives them.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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yahsway
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posted
Exactly, so why do they do it?
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Carol Swenson
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It isn't supposed to. The New Testament says:
2 Corinthians 8:1 - 5 (NASB)
Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia, that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality. For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord, begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints, and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.
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yahsway
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posted
Why does the church teach giving a tenth when it is old test law?
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
where do people get giving 10% from in the bible?
Numbers 18:26 (KJV)
Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
tenth
H4643
מַעַשְׂרָה מַעֲשַׂר מַעֲשֵׂר
maʽăśêr maʽăśar maʽaśrâh
mah-as-ayr', mah-as-ar', mah-as-raw'
From H6240; a tenth; especially a tithe:—tenth (part), tithe (-ing).
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barrykind
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posted
Yahsway states:
quote:
where do people get giving 10% from in the bible?
Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luke 18:12
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hebrews 7:6
But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Hebrews 7:8
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Hebrews 7:9
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
This is some of the scripture that is used to "justify" the tithe "tenth"...
I did not say i agree with the tithe today..butthis is what is taught in 98% mainstream "church"..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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yahsway
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where do people get giving 10% from in the bible?
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Betty Louise
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I don't know how your fiances work, but if I had put 100% of my check in the offering, me and the kids would have been homeless. I gave God the first 10% off the top and He made the 90% go further. Would I tell anyone else to tithe? No, that is between them and God, but I felt led to tithe and I did. I would rather tithe and be told by God in Heaven tithing was not necessary and not tithe and be told by God in Heaven that I was guilty of stealing from God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Barry44,
I believe in tithing and I did when I worked. I made very little but I gave God the first 10%, God always helped me make the 90% go longer.
betty
your math is wrong. Lets see u were already giving 100 and you added 10 required by the law thats 110%. So if u gave God the 1st 10 that would leave you with 100% that He helped you go longer with thru Grace..
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Betty Louise
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posted
Barry44,
I believe in tithing and I did when I worked. I made very little but I gave God the first 10%, God always helped me make the 90% go longer.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barry44:
A Call to Repentance
6 "I am the LORD, and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already destroyed. 7 Ever since the days of your ancestors, you have scorned my decrees and failed to obey them. Now return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies.
"But you ask, `How can we return when we have never gone away?'
8 "Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me." 9 You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! 11 Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. [11] Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. 12 "Then all nations will call you blessed, for your land will be such a delight," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies.
13 "You have said terrible things about me," says the LORD.
"But you say, `What do you mean? What have we said against you?'
14 "You have said, `What's the use of serving God? What have we gained by obeying his commands or by trying to show the LORD of Heaven's Armies that we are sorry for our sins? 15 From now on we will call the arrogant blessed. For those who do evil get rich, and those who dare God to punish them suffer no harm.'"
Oh the old tithe shake down bible miss quoting.
I can see you did not read what was posted from pg1. heres some of it.
PART I
"Will a man ROB God?" How many untold tens of thousands of men will give account one day for teaching this verse in Malachi 3:8 totally out of context for their own sordid gain. I couldn’t count the times I have heard self-appointed ministers of the gospel berate their congregations and listeners for "robbing God" in tithes and offerings. This verse in Malachi certainly means what it says. Someone was defrauding God of tithes and offerings, but wait until you find out who it is that God blames for this act.
On any given Sunday morning there will be numerous men-of-the-cloth who will be bellowing out over the air waves that people are being "cursed with a curse" because they have failed to pay God ten percent of their paychecks. And should such a gullible listener decide to repent and give God ten percent of his salary, just how would he do that? Just keep reading. These men of the cloth who often have unquenchable worldly desires of the flesh, will be sure to give you an address where you can send them (or, ah, rather God) your tithe. And do they have a right to quote these Scriptures in this manner? No they do not, and furthermore they themselves know better.
SOME SHOCKING TRUTHS ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN TITHING DOCTRINE
1. Abraham never tithed on his own personal property or livestock.
2. Jacob wouldn’t tithe until God blessed him first.
3. Only Levite priests could collect tithes, and there are no Levite priests today.
4. Only food products from the land were tithable.
5. Money was never a tithable commodity.
6. Christian converts were never asked to tithe anything to the Church.
7. Tithing in the Church first appears centuries after completion of the Bible.
I all ready give 100% If I was to give just 10% that would be robbing from God in this age of Grace.
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That is all.....
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Barry44
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A Call to Repentance
6 "I am the LORD, and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already destroyed. 7 Ever since the days of your ancestors, you have scorned my decrees and failed to obey them. Now return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies.
"But you ask, `How can we return when we have never gone away?'
8 "Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me." 9 You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me.
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! 11 Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. [11] Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. 12 "Then all nations will call you blessed, for your land will be such a delight," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies.
13 "You have said terrible things about me," says the LORD.
"But you say, `What do you mean? What have we said against you?'
14 "You have said, `What's the use of serving God? What have we gained by obeying his commands or by trying to show the LORD of Heaven's Armies that we are sorry for our sins? 15 From now on we will call the arrogant blessed. For those who do evil get rich, and those who dare God to punish them suffer no harm.'"
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http://wordoftruth.freeforums.org/index.php
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John Hale
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Interesting in another thread someone brought up exponential growth of humanity... some 6.5 billion.
There has never been a time more in need of the priesthood of the believer than now! Anything less is (first off going against God's commands) far too inadequate to spread the Gospel to every creature.
Time to stop playing religion in Christianity. The priesthood is not just for the Seminary Tribe... it's time to stop attending Church and start being the Church of Jesus!
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by byfaith:
Tithing is mentioned in the parable of the prayers of the Pharisee and
the Tax Collector, where the Pharisee states;
Luke 18:12 'I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
In this illustration we have the teaching that strict obedience to the law, and the self righteousness it can produce, amounts to less than the display of humility by a sinner seeking mercy.
Old testament tithing:
They emptied their coffers every three years as taught in the OT.
Every third year all the tithes were distributed to the widows and orphans and poor.
OT - they kept war chests.
So, are modern day churches also holding these up today? no.
Giving! that is the NEW Covenant! not to be burdened with a NUMBER or percent.
Amen.
And we who are in the Body Christian had better take a long look at the condemnation of the rich... the Bible describes as those who hoard wealth in the last days (last days = Christian era).
This is the time of grace... not judgment or profit... yet look at what we've neglected... oy... God forgive us!!!!!!!
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byfaith
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Tithing is mentioned in the parable of the prayers of the Pharisee and
the Tax Collector, where the Pharisee states;
Luke 18:12 'I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
In this illustration we have the teaching that strict obedience to the law, and the self righteousness it can produce, amounts to less than the display of humility by a sinner seeking mercy.
Old testament tithing:
They emptied their coffers every three years as taught in the OT.
Every third year all the tithes were distributed to the widows and orphans and poor.
OT - they kept war chests.
So, are modern day churches also holding these up today? no.
Giving! that is the NEW Covenant! not to be burdened with a NUMBER or percent.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by byfaith:
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Prov.27:17
thanks for the video link as well wildb. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Ditto
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That is all.....
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John Hale
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Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Not that we are without law...
1 Corinthians 9:19-21
19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the lawof Moses), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
Torah (law) Moshe (Moses)is fulfilled only by the higher law Torah (law) Moshiakh (Messiah). The righteousness of the Messiah removes the condemnation of the Law of Moses from our account.
Getting back to the thread topic here... we are under a new covenant wherein the priesthood we are to support is supposed to be US. Christianity is the priesthood of all believers. And we are to spawn (through evangelism and training) yet more priests...
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John Hale
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The Sermon on the Mount was not a prerequisite for the Church it was divine commentary on the Mosaic Law in efforts to get Israel back on track.
The temporary atonement sacrifices (for example) were being misinterpreted as account clearance. In other words by using the sacrificial system (meant to point the way to Jesus and to temporarily atone for sin on earth / still no access to heaven or eternal forgiveness where sins are not atoned for but rather done away with) as a means of forgiveness add in Sanhedrin traditions and customs and rites... and they turned the Law of Moses (a means to an end) into an end itself...
And Jesus under the old covenant in Matthew 5-7 came to set the record straight... the Law was intended to produce human failure forcing man to seek God's grace rather than self righteousness or even "justice..."
A widow once plead before a judge to spare her son convicted of murder... "Mercy," she begged.
"Your son is guilty. He deserves to die." said the judge.
"That is why I did not plead justice, my lord, but mercy."
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John Hale
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The point I was making in all is that the covenant is what makes the difference.
Take the Lord's prayer (actually John 17 is the Lord's prayer and what is commonly called the Lord's prayer is the old covenant disciple's prayer).
...for give us as we forgive others...
new covenant or old covenant?
Remember, the events in the Gospels occurred almost entirely under the old covenant... not until the death of the testator does the (new) testament (covenant) go into effect...
Hebrews 9:16-17
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
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byfaith
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Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Prov.27:17
thanks for the video link as well wildb.
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byfaith
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thank you for this, this is the point I was trying/failing to make.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
In my world, Ministers have to pay for food, clothing and doctor bills. Yes, I give my time to God, but I also give my money to help support my local Church and Missions. No where did Jesus tell the people not to tithe and in fact, He gave a coin from a fish to pay His tithes to the Temple.
betty
The script that you use has nothing to do with tithing. A tribute was payed only once a year.
The law, Exod. xxx. 13, obliged every male among the Jews to pay half a shekel yearly; for the support of the temple;
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Betty Louise
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If you get no income of course you are not able to pay tithes. But I gave my tithes when I made minimum wage. By giving 10 % it goes by your income. If you make more your 10% is more.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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byfaith
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I agree that GIVING is important.
I do not disagree with giving.
I am only speaking of Tithing.
There is a difference, as this thread's content is pointing toward.
That is all I am trying to make a point about.
I am only talking about tithing....not giving as a cheerful giver.
Some may have no money to give, and therefore lend their talents and time which comes to the same as the person giving money.
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Betty Louise
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My sister was a Preacher's wife. I seen with my own eyes a Preacher's family sacrifice for a small little Church in a small town. Tithing is important for the Church. The Church is a group of people who come together to worship God, reach out to their community for God and support Missions around the world. We give a tip to our waiter should we not be willing to give 10 percent to God.
Everybody cannot give thousands of dollars but we can all give 10 % of our income. We should not be discouraging people from paying their tithes.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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byfaith
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I didn't say that nothing was to be given, I was speaking of "tithing".
I stated that we are to give.
No need to become snide.
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Betty Louise
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In my world, Ministers have to pay for food, clothing and doctor bills. Yes, I give my time to God, but I also give my money to help support my local Church and Missions. No where did Jesus tell the people not to tithe and in fact, He gave a coin from a fish to pay His tithes to the Temple.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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byfaith
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Where in the Bible does it speak of giving in terms of fairness?
Also, tithing was never done in terms of money.
Today, I believe that we tithe also with our time,helping others,going out and doing the work of Christ.
Too much emphasis is placed in monetary giving to the "church organization".
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Betty Louise
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Ten percent is fair because you pay according to what you receive. Everyone's ten percent is different. When I made 50 cents an hour as a teenage, I paid my tithes.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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byfaith
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The Old Testament taught tithing, the New testament teaches Giving....there is a difference.
There are preachers who use the tithe as a guilt trip.
I was in a church that the pastor had a big dinner, and passed around a slip for the members to fill out that would state how much you promise to tithe in that yr....and you signed it.
That was it for me there.
If we are going to site "tithing" the tenth for today, well then there are MANY more things we should be doing that the old test. sites as well right?
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Betty Louise
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"Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper," I Corinthians 16:2.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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John Hale
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Yes they do.
The ministry of Christianity is based on a spiritual governmental system championed by Catholics and reinvented by Protestants... clergy / laity... but the new testament / new covenant is the priesthood of all believers... or it's supposed to be...
tithing is to support the priesthood (us).
A similar subject is the great financial trap we find ourselves in here in America. The system is broken. And everyone is scrambling to grab all the mammon they can. When the problem and the solution is a matter of the heart... love thy neighbor as thyself...
Until people begin to apply this personally America will get worse and worse...
And until the Church gets back on track it will also grow worse... it is of no coincidence that wherever the Church has been in historic prominence it eventually gave into a pot-Christian era... in every place since Constantine legalized Christianity in the attempt to prop up his crumbling Empire...
Whether it be Constantine or the US IRS with the 501 c 3 that which the Church submits to as having authority to affirm her legal right to exist or to be exempt from taxes or whatever becomes the authority usurping God's authority...
My point is the Church is in major need of repair. And to just keep throwing money and support at it will not fix the situation. It needs an overhaul using just the Bible and excising the human traditions acclaimed to be truth and are rather parasites to the truth...
Some truth + untruth defended as complete truth = the world we live in today where all religions are on par with Christianity and most would rather follow other religions than Christianity...
And when we try to show them the Gospel is the only truth + water baptism + tithing + Calvinism + Methodism + you name it... our defense of truth is moot for defending the untruths we've attached to the truth.
Suppose I showed you how the Bible teaches that all who convert to the Jewish Messiah become part of the Spiritual House of Israel?
If the Bible teaches it... it must be truth. So why aren't Churches teaching it if it's in the Bible and it is therefore truth?
I am stating this as supposition but I am prepared to debate it as Bible truth. In another thread of course.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
Point number 1... the one provision for women to be allowed in ministry is the insufficiency of males in ministry.
Point number 2... since all are called to be in ministry / priests (a royal priesthood in the very scripture you quoted I should read) and I can easily say MOST believers are not in ministry... then no one ever need question whether those women who step up into the pulpit belong there again...
Point number 3... the structure of the Church has been compromised by the infiltration of the evil one since the days of Constantine (the late Dr. J. Vernon McGee said "the de-evil" he had that marvelous Texas draw... "the de-evil found he could not lick the Church so in the person o' Constantine, he jo-ined the Church...")
The tithe was for the Old Covenant priesthood tribe of Levi who (no surprise to those study the OT) had little to no land grants or inheritance... the store house of Malachi 3 was the welfare system of the nation... the Church at least in America has abdicated that to the government ages ago...
NT giving is 100% not 10% and the duties of priesthood are not for a portion of the believers but for all. Luke 14:25-35.
tithing to an out of whack structure is enabling it to continue to hamstring the effect God intended to be like a spiritual conflagration...
Again point 1 and 2 have nothing to do with the topic of Tithing.
Point 3 is just a general statement and still off topic.
NT giving is as a man prospers. Stewardship is 100%
1Cor.16 [2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him,
Luke.16
[1] And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
[2] And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
[3] Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
[4] I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
[5] So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
[6] And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
[7] Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
[8] And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
[9] And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
[10] He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
[11] If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
[12] And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Luke 14:25-35. has nothing to do with the duties of priesthood.
Prayerfully watch this from Dr. J. Vernon McGee.
Dr J Vernon McGee Q&A - Is Tithing for Today?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWItOyH3fs&feature=player_embedded#
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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John Hale
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Point number 1... the one provision for women to be allowed in ministry is the insufficiency of males in ministry.
Point number 2... since all are called to be in ministry / priests (a royal priesthood in the very scripture you quoted I should read) and I can easily say MOST believers are not in ministry... then no one ever need question whether those women who step up into the pulpit belong there again...
Point number 3... the structure of the Church has been compromised by the infiltration of the evil one since the days of Constantine (the late Dr. J. Vernon McGee said "the de-evil" he had that marvelous Texas draw... "the de-evil found he could not lick the Church so in the person o' Constantine, he jo-ined the Church...")
The tithe was for the Old Covenant priesthood tribe of Levi who (no surprise to those study the OT) had little to no land grants or inheritance... the store house of Malachi 3 was the welfare system of the nation... the Church at least in America has abdicated that to the government ages ago...
NT giving is 100% not 10% and the duties of priesthood are not for a portion of the believers but for all. Luke 14:25-35.
tithing to an out of whack structure is enabling it to continue to hamstring the effect God intended to be like a spiritual conflagration...
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
My answer to this point is very similar to the question about women preachers. We in the Body of Christ are called everyone of us to be in ministry according to the calling and ability God gave us.
We are the kingdom of priests Israel was intended to be in Exodus but had to settle for a priestly tribe... which we also have tried to force upon the New Covenant (the clergy) those who attended seminary etc. while the rest pack pews as it were bleachers to cheer on the professional Christian in the pulpit... in that system a tenth was required to make up for the priests' lack of land inheritance...
We are supposed to be the priesthood and therefore the money we spend on our ministry and our basic survival needs is the tenth... B U T...
this does not means we can lavish ourselves with worldly fortunes in the name of taking care of ourselves as God's ministers and ministeresses (the original definition of Mr. and Mrs. btw)...
It would be better invested in a tithe to a Church even if it usurps the duties of the so-called laity... at least it is using the money (basically) for the Gospel... mostly... well... kind of... (building bigger buildings... never mind...) so many pet peeves so little time to gripe about them... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Your post starts off with a red haring which I dismiss as pointless to subject.
You put forth some opinion without any scriptural backing. Some of which is not Biblical at all but a bending of text for a personal interpretation.
I suggest that you prayerfully read the following and show me where the Jewish earthly Kingdom is made reference to..
1Pet.2
1. [5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
2. [9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
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John Hale
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My answer to this point is very similar to the question about women preachers. We in the Body of Christ are called everyone of us to be in ministry according to the calling and ability God gave us.
We are the kingdom of priests Israel was intended to be in Exodus but had to settle for a priestly tribe... which we also have tried to force upon the New Covenant (the clergy) those who attended seminary etc. while the rest pack pews as it were bleachers to cheer on the professional Christian in the pulpit... in that system a tenth was required to make up for the priests' lack of land inheritance...
We are supposed to be the priesthood and therefore the money we spend on our ministry and our basic survival needs is the tenth... B U T...
this does not means we can lavish ourselves with worldly fortunes in the name of taking care of ourselves as God's ministers and ministeresses (the original definition of Mr. and Mrs. btw)...
It would be better invested in a tithe to a Church even if it usurps the duties of the so-called laity... at least it is using the money (basically) for the Gospel... mostly... well... kind of... (building bigger buildings... never mind...) so many pet peeves so little time to gripe about them...
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by mpaper345:
The truth about tithes.
The New Testament says whatever a person purposes in their own heart to give let them give that.
That means whatever a person wants to give is up to them and no Preacher or other person can tell them what to give.
But this is talking about offerings not tithes.
In the Old Testament there was a king of Salem Melchizedek who was the priest of the most high God.
Some nations took Abram's brother's son Lot and all his goods so Abram went to war with them and took back Lot and all his goods and took the nations goods and gave a tenth of all the goods to Melchizedek the priest of the most high God.
The New Testament said God called Jesus to be a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
If Jesus is called of God to be a High Priest patterned after Melchizedek and Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedek then we should give a tenth to the Church because Jesus is made after the order of Melchizedek which means Abram honored Melchizedek as the priest of the most high God so we should honor Jesus and give Him a tenth because He is called of God to be patterned after the life of Melchizedek.
We have to give tithes because that is the way the Church keeps operating and every Christian has to be part of it and do their share but that money is for the preachers needs and no more for the preacher and all the rest of the money is for the ministry and helping people.
The world is not going to give us free materials to build Churches,pay the electrical,gas and water and other things associated with it.The world is not going to take care of the Preacher's needs.The world is not going to give us money to feed people,clothe people and to take care of people's needs because the world is selfish and arrogant and does not believe.There might be a few acceptions of people who do not believe but still believes the Church does good for people but not enough.
we have to give tithes and God is being fair by saying all give a tenth and not demanding more from one person to the next.
When it comes to offerings God said you can give whatever you want and nobody can say how much you have to give.
Matt
My Brother do you give this tenth from the spoils of war?
Please read prayerfully,
Heb.7
[4] Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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mpaper345
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posted
The truth about tithes.
The New Testament says whatever a person purposes in their own heart to give let them give that.
That means whatever a person wants to give is up to them and no Preacher or other person can tell them what to give.
But this is talking about offerings not tithes.
In the Old Testament there was a king of Salem Melchizedek who was the priest of the most high God.
Some nations took Abram's brother's son Lot and all his goods so Abram went to war with them and took back Lot and all his goods and took the nations goods and gave a tenth of all the goods to Melchizedek the priest of the most high God.
The New Testament said God called Jesus to be a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
If Jesus is called of God to be a High Priest patterned after Melchizedek and Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedek then we should give a tenth to the Church because Jesus is made after the order of Melchizedek which means Abram honored Melchizedek as the priest of the most high God so we should honor Jesus and give Him a tenth because He is called of God to be patterned after the life of Melchizedek.
We have to give tithes because that is the way the Church keeps operating and every Christian has to be part of it and do their share but that money is for the preachers needs and no more for the preacher and all the rest of the money is for the ministry and helping people.
The world is not going to give us free materials to build Churches,pay the electrical,gas and water and other things associated with it.The world is not going to take care of the Preacher's needs.The world is not going to give us money to feed people,clothe people and to take care of people's needs because the world is selfish and arrogant and does not believe.There might be a few acceptions of people who do not believe but still believes the Church does good for people but not enough.
we have to give tithes and God is being fair by saying all give a tenth and not demanding more from one person to the next.
When it comes to offerings God said you can give whatever you want and nobody can say how much you have to give.
Matt
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Betty Louise
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posted
I am blessed to have two. One in Texas and two in Washington State.
The second Church actually does alot of stuff for the community. Thanksgiving the feed lunch to anybody who comes in off the street. Christmas they wrap anybody's Christmas gifts for free to help people in the community.
Like I said there is still a few Churches that put God first.
I pray that each of you finds one.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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byfaith
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That is fantastic Betty! you are quite fortunate to have a good church home that seems to have their priorities in order.
There are not many of these churches left.
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Betty Louise
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Our Pastor started the Church with money taken out of his retirement fund. The Church paid him back over a ten year period. He has never taken a salary although our Church as grown enough that we pay a small salary to our Associate Pastors. Our Church is big enough to hold 200 people and there is no talk of making it bigger. Instead we support Missions and buy things like Hearing is believing Bibles for Africa and we bought bicycles for African Pastors.
Our Church in Washington also supported Missions. We help single women who choice to have their babies get settled in an apartments and help them find jobs and provided babysitting at the Church nursery for them to work.
There are many Churches out there who are not trying to have huge buildings and luxury items for the Pastor and Church but support Missions regularly.
Sure you have to look for them but they are there.
My sister was a Pastor's wife and I can tell you that she never got rich from being a Pastor's wife.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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John Hale
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A man after my own heart!
I have tried to explain to folks how Christianity is not just another religion with human hierarchical government in need of financial and power based supports (like tithing). We a kingdom of priests (everyone of us) with Jesus Christ as out direct High Priest. No middle men / elders / so called apostles / bishops / etc. And pastors are overseers of novices and those of spiritual infirmities.
I should write a book "The one way back to the oneness Jesus prayed for in John 17... the Bible."
or "The Church is not supposed to be a spiritual country club but a spiritual university of grads and a spiritual hospital of patients who get cured."
Win, disciple, send motto of Horizon Christian Fellowship (a Calvary Chapel spin off in Southern California) that rents and acquires old school campuses rather than building programs... pastors are training and go out to start their own congregations to train pastors to send out to start their own congregations...
It ain't perfect but it's on the right road.
quote:
Originally posted by KnowHim:
Betty I understand how some people think this “To tithe or not should be a personal decision made with prayer” and I agree. The problem I find with people’s decisions on tithing is that the modern day Church preachers pound a false message about tithing on people at least once a month trying to make them feel guilty so they can get more money from them. They start this on people when they are just kids in Sunday school and it is more like brain washing them. They are never taught the truth that tithing was Old Testament and not taught in the New Testament.
I think everything we have belongs to God. Our talent, our money, etc… not just a tenth. But when you give it to God then really give it to God not a building program and all the many programs that the collected money is wasted on. Help someone that needs help. Ever notice how a church will help someone out that is in dire need. They will take up an EXTRA collection for them and give the person who is in bad shape $100.00 to $300.00 when the person really needs a lot more than that. Then worst of all they humiliate the person by making them stand up or something in front of the whole church bragging about how much that gave them when in reality $300.00 don't buy much now a days and it not a drop in the bucket to what they collect for themselves. It makes me sick and I know Jesus has never ever humiliate me and that is not his spirit, even when I deserve to be humiliated He still want do it.
I am 50 years old now and grow very weary seeing how much effort the modern day churches spend on trying to collect more money so they can build bigger buildings to set empty most of the time. It would not be so bad if they actually used the money to help people and spread the gospel but that rarely happens. But still they are teaching the tithe for their own benefit and not actually to use it to do as God would have them. I use to listen to Christian radio but now I get so tired of all the begging for money and ministries trying to sale their books I just turn it off because they spend more time doing that then telling people about Jesus.
When I listen to a preacher and they decide to spend their time begging for money I turn them off as I know what their motive is, it is the money not sharing the wonderful good news of Jesus Christ. The feel good gospel of the modern day church is sending many to hell not to mention robbing them and God.
Good post WildB !
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It's ALL about Jesus!
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
There sure are some bad Churches out there. Our Church when they give money to help someone with a light bill, does it as secret as possible so not to embarrass them. Our Pastor only preaches on tithing once a year. I am indeed blessed to have my Church home.
betty
Yes you are and I am very happy for you.
God bless you and your Church,
David
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