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Author Topic: Salvation is free, but discipleship is costly???
Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
This is cured whenever the natural man is slain by the cross.

Hebrews 10:11-25
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.


quote:
Then the spiritual man can hear.
Isaiah 42:19
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I send? who is blind as he that is at peace with me, and blind as Jehovah's servant?

Habakkuk 2
Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith.
Yea, moreover, wine is treacherous, a haughty man, that keepeth not at home; who enlargeth his desire as Sheol, and he is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all peoples.
Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and that ladeth himself with pledges! Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall bite thee, and awake that shall vex thee, and thou shalt be for booty unto them?
Because thou hast plundered many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall plunder thee, because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein.
Woe to him that getteth an evil gain for his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the hand of evil! Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast sinned against thy soul.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity!
Behold, is it not of Jehovah of hosts that the peoples labor for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity? For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, to thee that addest thy venom, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! Thou art filled with shame, and not glory: drink thou also, and be as one uncircumcised; the cup of Jehovah's right hand shall come round unto thee, and foul shame shall be upon thy glory. For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee, and the destruction of the beasts, which made them afraid; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein.
What profiteth the graven image, that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, even the teacher of lies, that he that fashioneth its form trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise! Shall this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
But Jehovah is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Habakkuk 3:17-19
For though the fig-tree shall not flourish, Neither shall fruit be in the vines; The labor of the olive shall fail, And the fields shall yield no food; The flock shall be cut off from the fold, And there shall be no herd in the stalls: Yet I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation.
Jehovah, the Lord, is my strength; And he maketh my feet like hinds' feet, And will make me to walk upon my high places.

Ezekiel 21:23
And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, who have sworn oaths unto them; but he bringeth iniquity to remembrance, that they may be taken.

Isaiah 43:26-27
Put me in remembrance; let us plead together: set thou forth thy cause, that thou mayest be justified. Thy first father sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

Isaiah 26:8
Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael Harrison
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I remember when I came home from school as a little child and told my parents that a green object was every color but. They said, "My oh my. What are they teaching kids in school?" It seems that they couldn't sbsorb the fact that the object absorbs every color of the spectrum except green, which is reflected off, rendernig it to our minds - green!

In fact the word teaches us of abiding, if we ask Him to remove the blinders. The word has come alive to many who were seeking something beyond what they knew. And it is right there, only we don't see it. And it could be 'heard' from someone who tells it, however what we hear gets distorted before it reaches our heart, and we hear it differently than it is being said. That is because the natural man, that old man of unbelief, distorts it before it is assimilated. This is cured whenever the natural man is slain by the cross. Then the spiritual man can hear.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
If we learn from being taught, from our Bible study for example, then we won't need chastisement.

We don't learn to lean on Jesus by reading the Bible.. We learn of others who did and were blessed in thier doing so. We don't learn to trust, rest or abide in Christ by reading the Bible, we learn that this is His desire for us, but the Spirit also testifies..

We don't know the color green until we see it [Wink]

quote:
Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life.
Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Galatians 6:9
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

2 Thessalonians 3:13
But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good.

1 Peter 4:19
Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Is there any passage in the gospels that would indicate we can opt out of discipleship yet still be saved.

John 21:14-23
This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
So when they had broken their fast, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
He saith to him again a second time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned back on his breast at the supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee? Peter therefore seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me.
This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Chastisement is not punishment. It is discipline. Discipline is instruction often through difficult lessons. And the Father disciplines all His children.

Aaron

Indeed.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Have it your way. I'm going to go suffer the chastisement of reading my Bible now... [Bible]

Aw, it doesn't hurt to read. [Smile]
At least it shouldn't. [Frown]


Aaron

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Carol Swenson
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Have it your way. I'm going to go suffer the chastisement of reading my Bible now... [Bible]
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Aaron,

I just posted Loved By Perfection on May 10. Don't know if you had a chance to read it.

I guess I think of chastisement as being the next step if discipline (teaching) doesn't work.

No, they are one in the same.
Otherwise you have God beating us for no reason. [Big Grin]

And, according to the definitions posted, discipline is not simply teaching by words, is it?

Aaron

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Carol Swenson
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Aaron,

I just posted Loved By Perfection on May 10. Don't know if you had a chance to read it.

I guess I think of chastisement as being the next step if discipline (teaching) doesn't work.


dis·ci·pline

–noun

1. training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.
2. activity, exercise, or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training: A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.
3. punishment inflicted by way of correction and training.
4. the rigor or training effect of experience, adversity, etc.: the harsh discipline of poverty.
5. behavior in accord with rules of conduct; behavior and order maintained by training and control: good discipline in an army.
6. a set or system of rules and regulations.
7. Ecclesiastical. the system of government regulating the practice of a church as distinguished from its doctrine.
8. an instrument of punishment, esp. a whip or scourge, used in the practice of self-mortification or as an instrument of chastisement in certain religious communities.
9. a branch of instruction or learning: the disciplines of history and economics.

–verb (used with object)

10. to train by instruction and exercise; drill.
11. to bring to a state of order and obedience by training and control.
12. to punish or penalize in order to train and control; correct; chastise.


chas·tise

1. to discipline, esp. by corporal punishment.
2. to criticize severely.
3. Archaic. to restrain; chasten.
4. Archaic. to refine; purify.

Synonyms - punish, castigate; whip, beat, flog, spank.

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Aaron,

Could I add a thought here?

Discipline means training. Disciple means the follower of a leader or teacher.

If we learn from being taught, from our Bible study for example, then we won't need chastisement.

Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life.

No, chastisement is not punishment. It is discipline.

See here, it says "God chastises all His sons."

quote:
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Chastisement is not punishment. It is discipline. Discipline is instruction often through difficult lessons. And the Father disciplines all His children.

Aaron

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Michael Harrison
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Yea! I like the way you said that. It has nothing to do with earning. It has to do with being ready for the harvest. It has to do with waiting for the train to pull into the station. Otherwise we could end up in the top less pub across the street, drowining in our sorrows.

"Oops! Was that the train? Did anybody hear the train? I gotta go!"

Too late! Train gone.

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oneinchrist
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Enduring to the end means to stand firm in the faith despite all opposition/adversity. Jesus is telling us that if we do not do this we will not be saved. This has nothing to do with earning salvation. This has to do with the test of the genuineness of our faith in Jesus and our loyalty towards Him.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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Aaron,

Could I add a thought here?

Discipline means training. Disciple means the follower of a leader or teacher.

If we learn from being taught, from our Bible study for example, then we won't need chastisement.

Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life.

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"if" one has not learned to judge ones self before The Lords chastisment then trully one may never had been sealed untill the day of REDEMTION.

WildB,

Could you say that again, in a different way? I'm not quite sure what you're implying.

I'll tell you where I'm going: I chastise my children. To this day they've never asked for correction. They go the way they are used to going until dad "corrects their rudder". I know how to correct their rudder because I know where they need to go. I give correction to them when when I see that it is appropriate. And, when they've learned the correct path they continue on in it.
Doesn't this verse imply the same about God: he chastises/disciplines his children according to His wisdom?

Aaron

P.S. And this isn't about sin, either. For Jesus did not sin, yet "He learned obedience by what He suffered." This is about maturing in the Lord by suffering.

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Aaron
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quote:
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
Here, enduring is implied. Proper chastening has an accomplished goal and the Father's work produces the desired results. If the Father's work is not endured it is not chastening.

quote:
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
Here, nothing about enduring. Chastening from the Father is the mark of a son. Have you partaken of such chastening? Then you are a son.

Aaron

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Michael Harrison
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I read a story of a man not too long ago in a book about persecution of the saints in the Soviet Union. A man's father was tortured in front of his son. The authorities were trying to get the man to denounce Christ. The father died right before the son's eyes. The son did not deny Christ. He went insane.

For all of the people who are so smart, and so sure of yourselves in an environment where there is no real persecution, think about it really hard. For some of you who think you are Christians, (and I have no doubt that you really are) may take the path of Peter in denying thrice, before the cook crows, in the near future.

So where the certainty comes from that you will endure to the end, I cannot tell. Sripture says that the "Love of many," will in fact wax cold before that fateful day, indicating that numbers of people will not have 'overcoming' faith, just from the temptation that will be in the world before that man of perdition is revealed (never mind the persecution).

And it is utter nonesense that anyone thinks that all who do not make it, were not saved in the first place. Those who think that salvation is a gift box delivered with their name on it may fit the description of those listed in Matthew wherein they wept, or wailed with gnashing of teeth, when they find out that they thought wrong. That is precisely what those passages are about. None of us know how hard it can become. None of us here really know!

For without 'overcoming' faith, you will be snuffed out. And God isn't accepting reservations for people who will not endure.It says so right there in scripture. So for me, the most dangerous thing around is the doctrine of osas. In fact, these are the ones whom I fear for the most whether they are really saved or not. At least, I have the concern whether they will endure, seeing they are so boastful. For there is no humility in osas as Paul helps us to understand, for he said that he did not consider himself to have attained resurrection from the dead. And this was Paul. For resurrection from the dead is what Jesus means to us even as we read this if we are His, yet, Paul clearly stated that it wasn't assured unless he reached the end without turning back. That is what it means to be resurrected from the dead irreversably, that you perservered, or clung to Him.

The point is, will one reach out to Him in the time of persecution, and loss of all the worldly things that they love, or will they find it easier to succumb? Just because they are saved doesn't mean that they will reach out to Him point to point in their journey.

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Carol Swenson
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The Sin Of Quenching The Holy Spirit


“Quench not the Spirit” (1 Thess. 5:19).

This sin involves not doing that which the Holy Spirit would have us do. The same word is used elsewhere in reference to the putting out of a fire.

“A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment into victory” (Mt. 12:20).

“Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked” (Eph. 6:16).

“Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens” (Heb. 11:34).

The Sin Of Grieving The Holy Spirit

“And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30).

This sin involves doing that which the Holy Spirit would not have us do.

To illustrate: A believer boards a plane in Chicago for Los Angeles and finds himself seated next to an unsaved man. In flight the Holy Spirit attempts to witness to the unsaved man through the testimony of the Christian, but he remains silent and fails to witness. At this point, the believer has quenched the Holy Spirit. He has not done that which the Spirit of God wanted him to do.

As the flight continues, however, the two men introduce themselves and begin talking, but not about spiritual things. In fact, to the shame of the Christian, several off-color stories are passed between the two men. Now the saved man has gone the second step and grieved the Holy Spirit—he has done that which the Holy Spirit did not want him to do.

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Carol Swenson
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Matthew 24:13

“But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” (NRSV)

Only Jesus’ faithful followers will enter God’s kingdom. The stress in this verse is not on endurance, but on salvation; the verse offers both a promise and a warning. “The end” refers to the consummation of the kingdom at Christ’s return. This became a precious promise to believers who were struggling during intense persecution throughout the history of the church.

Enduring to the end does not earn salvation for us; it marks us as already saved. The assurance of our salvation will keep us going through times of persecution. While some will suffer and some will die, none of Jesus’ followers will suffer spiritual or eternal loss.


Stand Firm

Jesus predicted that his followers would be severely persecuted by those who hated what he stood for. In terrible persecutions, however, they could have hope, knowing that salvation was theirs. Times of trial serve to sift true believers from false ones. When you are pressured to give up and turn your back on Christ, don’t do it. Remember the benefits of standing firm, and continue to live for Christ.


(Life Application Bible Commentary: Matthew)

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WildB
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"if" one has not learned to judge ones self before The Lords chastisment then trully one may never had been sealed untill the day of REDEMTION.

For we, in this Age of Grace, Must not grieve the Holy Spirit, from which we are SEALED.


Becausehelives do you chastise yourself befor or after the transgression,s in your life?

Or do you wait for the Lord to correct your rudder ?

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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No Aaron I have not forgotten Hebrews 12…..

If you endure chastening…

You only give 2 options…

quote:
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

but the little word “ if” implies a 3rd option

If you do not endure the chastening…you have not endured till the end… any child can rebel against chastening…

enduring to the end as Yahshua said…Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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There are three types of Christians, more or less. One is content. Another wants to 'do' for HIM. Another type is pretty well described by the lyric of the song,"Just a closer walk with thee," to the end that these want to draw closer to Him. So to enumerate once again, the three, are those who get saved and are content, those who get saved and want to go all out for Him, and those who get saved and want to draw night to Him. Of these, who do you think that is dearer to Him? It is those who will to draw nigh to Him. That this is of primary importance above all else is illustrated by the verse, "Seek 'first' the Kingdom of God, and HIS righteousness, and all of these will be added on."

The word disciple means, simply, learner! So a command is apparent in the deliberate and repeated use of the word, to the end that it means that once we are committed to Him by belief, we are to learn of Him until a specific result is acquired. Again, to seek first is the extract of 'to learn of Him,' by nature of association. This is our calling, one denied by both the 'content' crowd, and the 'do' for Him entourage.

"Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Mat 11:29-30)

To learn of Him will to cost you much, to the consternation of the 'do for Him' crowd. For even that stands in the way of learning of Him. And what about the content group? The problem with these is that when a tsunami hits, they do not have enough to cling to, to ride out the storm; while when it is sunny, they are like flowers in the church pews in a Florida Key, where the elevation is 12" above sea level.

Therefore the requirement is for one to learn of Him, and the result is that one will find His yoke easy, and His burden light! But without being a disciple, one will not understand what is the significance. It costs you all to learn of Him, which is to "Take His Yoke," stated in the simplicity with which He states it.

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WildB
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1Cor.11
[31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.[32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


--------------------
That is all.....

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Aaron
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These verses came to mind:
quote:

Hbr 12:5-8 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."

If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Bottom line: Good fathers discipline their sons; The Perfect Father disciplines His sons perfectly and without exception. If you are His you will be His disciple.

Aaron

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becauseHElives
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If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

there is no Salvation in Jesus apart from discipleship, to believe different is to believe the lies of Satan.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Pathwalker
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salvation is free, but the dues are rather costly."
This is the quote I heard also!

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Psalm 119:105 " Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path"

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WildB
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I think I hurd the same but a little different.

"salvation is free, but discipleship is costly."


What I hurd was....


"salvation is free, but the dues are rather costly."

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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4. Covenant of Salt.

Numbers 18: 19 -- All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the Lord, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute forever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the Lord unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

II Chronicles 13: 5 -- Ought ye not to know that the Lord God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?

The covenant of salt is an extremely important concept in the East. It is mentioned various times in both the Old and New Testaments. The covenant of salt means that you have pledged or promised fidelity to someone. By eating a salted meal with another person, the covenant is accomplished. Even if the other person is a thief or a murderer, he will not steal from you or hurt you. To Easterners, breaking a covenant of salt means death.

God had a covenant of salt with His people of the Old Testament, and we also have it in the Age of Grace in which we live. Every day we eat God's salt, because we live by His grace. Some of us dishonor Him, however, and break the covenant by our actions and our words.

Matthew 5: 13 -- Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

In the Eastern household, salt was kept in a large stone jar on the floor. Every day the floor was washed with water. The jar would continually absorb some of the water, and the salt at the bottom would leach out and lose it's 'saltiness'. When the household reached the lower level of 'unsalty' salt, it would be tossed out onto the street so the jar could be refilled. The record in Matthew relates this to our commitment to God and His Word. Non-commitment is bland and tasteless. Those who are not committed will soon find themselves trodden underfoot by the world.

Colossians 4: 5, 6 -- Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

If our words are salted, they will be gracious and truthful. We will mean what we say and say what we mean.

The covenant of salt is a promise of allegiance between us and God. God has never broken His covenant with us, and we must strive not to break our covenant of salt with Him.

http://www1.itech.net/~ydl/Orientalisms_of_the_Bible3.htm

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Keith
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Salvation is free, it is the gift of God.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We did not have to do anything to acquire the infinite love and favor of God. When we were separated from Him by sin, He gave His all for us in the infinite sacrifice of His only begotten Son. We were indebted to Him, yet He paid the ultimate sacrifice for us at no cost. This He did for each and every one of us.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

There was no cost in being justified, Christ did this for all humanity. The question is, how will we respond top this infinite love. Will we love Him, as He has loved us? Will we give our all, as He gave His all for us. This is where personal cost comes into place. We can earn nothing in the way of salvation, we can only respond to the love of God, or not.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Will we give our all to God, as He has given His all to us? This is the love relationship of our salvation. We love Him, because He loved us first. If we wish to be in heaven with Him, it will cost us everything. We will prove by the choices we make in this life, either our love for Him, or our love for ourselves, which is selfishness, the root of all sin.

Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

PRAISE GOD!

Y. b. in C. Keith

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oneinchrist
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The question that has been asked by many in the past is...... "Is discipleship a condition for salvation?" I contend that this would have been a foolish question to ask the Apostles in their day especially since everyone that believed and was baptized in the Name of the Lord was named a disciple of the Lord Jesus.


with the disciples which were at Damascus...Acts 9:19

Then the disciples took him by night, and...Acts 9:25

assayed to join himself to the disciples...Acts 9:26

The disciples had heard that Peter was... Acts 9:38

the disciples were called Christians... Acts 11:26

Then the disciples, every man according...Acts 11:29

the disciples were filled with joy, and...Acts 13:52

as the disciples stood round about him...Acts 14:20

Confirming the souls of the disciples...Acts 14:22

they abode long time with the disciples...Acts 14:28

put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples...Acts 14:28

in order, strengthening all of the disciples...Acts 18:23

exhorting the disciples to receive him...Acts 18:27

and finding certain disciples,...Acts 19:1

from them, and separated the disciples...Acts 19:9

people, the disciples suffered him not...Acts 19:30

Paul called unto him the disciples...Acts 20:1

when the disciples came together to break...Acts 20:7

things, to draw away disciples after them...Acts 20:30

And finding disciples, we tarried there...Acts 21:4

also certain of the disciples of Caesarea...Acts 21:16

Def. of Disciple: "one who follows one's teaching" or "a pupil who submits to processes of learning under a teacher"

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
In other words, if a person is a diciple, then they are a christian........not the other way around. Remember, the ones added to the church were first called "disciples" and then at a later time called "christians" by non-believers. There is to be no disconnect between being baptized into Christ and becoming a disciple of His.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Accepting Jesus into your heart as a Christian is the easy part, but you have to make a decision to take up your cross and follow and become a disciple for Jesus no matter what. Being in America it is more difficult to understand, but in other countries people may have to lose their lives or end of up jail for spreading the Good News or taking their stand.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


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Aaron
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Good question, Daniel.

The way I see it we are born (again) and raised to be mature sons. This is really no different then what a father on earth does for his children. And, speaking as a father of two girls, I can tell you that, at no time, have my children sought discipline. Never once, have they come to me and asked, "Dad, I realize I'm a bit irresponsible with my homework. I was wondering: could you discipline me so I can mature?"

Ha.

Not gonna happen. However, because I am their father and I know what is best for them I will press a lesson in their lives when they need to learn it. Now, since these lessons are contrary to their natural impulses they, inevitably feel some pain: at least the pain of lost traditions until the new lesson is fully formed in their lives.

The other thing to note: I teach them when they are ready. At one, my daughters were not ready to handle knives of any kind (butter or otherwise) so at no time did I put a knife in their hand. In fact, if they reached for a knife I would "rise up against them" so they would know, unequivocally, that knives were not to be touched. Then, when their fine motor skills became developed and their sense of personal responsibility was keen(er) I taught them to use a knife. I put the knife in their hands and I instructed them to use it.

Now, although they could wield a knife at a young age they were not given the authority, by me, to do so. Power without authority causes damage and they could have damaged themselves and others. No, it was only until they were ready and until I said they were ready were they actually permitted to handle a powerful tool.

When I consider how God raises sons I see this pattern: the Father maturing the sons to handle, in greater capacity, the affairs of His Kingdom to the point where, when they are fully mature, they reflect the nature and character of God in their lives. This happens through discipline by God the Father as the man is taught to put to death the things of the flesh and instead to live by the Spirit. When the man lives by the Spirit he is a mature son. At this point the son might say "When you see me you see the Father". I believe this is Gods intent in the lives of the saints: to raise His children to be mature so they glory that shines from them is the glory from the Father in Heaven.

So verses also come to mind:

Act 9:16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him], that we may also be glorified together.

Phl 1:29,30 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

1Th 3:4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

2Th 1:4,5 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer

2Ti 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

1Pe 4:19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls [to Him] in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

Bless you,
Aaron

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oneinchrist
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Being discipled cannot be equated with a physically demanding "obstacle course" that only a few can obtain. Being discipled is a matter of allowing God to change the heart through His Word and His Spirit. Once again, I just dont understand the belief that an individual is saved, and then they can decide at a later time whether or not they wish to put themselves in subjection to(be discipled by) the teachings and commands of Jesus Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In other words, if a person is a diciple, then they are a christian........not the other way around. Remember, the ones added to the church were first called "disciples" and then at a later time called "christians" by non-believers. There is to be no disconnect between being baptized into Christ and becoming a disciple of His.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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The way I see it is:

Salvation is a free gift from God. Discipleship is us giving ourselves to God to serve Him as He wills; as the Holy Spirit leads us to.

There are people who are old, weak, sick, and all they can offer are faith and prayer. I'd like to think the Lord loves them too even though they can't serve the Lord in as many ways as other people can. Maybe they are believers but not disciples. Guess it depends on how you define it.

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Good NewsforAll
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I think that he said discipleship is costly because many can come against you and you can make many enemies. Look at Jesus he had many come against him. It can be a very lonely life taking a stand.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


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Isaiah
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That may not have been what he meant -i don't know -sometimes when we try to clarify, we confuse the issue.

Maybe he meant something like a... 'let's say there is free food at a certain place -but you have to do some walking to get there' -sort of thing?

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oneinchrist
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I was listening to a radio preacher the other day and he kept emphasizing "salvation is free, but discipleship is costly."

My first thought upon hearing this was "since when is discipleship an option for a believer?" Is there any passage in the gospels that would indicate we can opt out of discipleship yet still be saved. In the book of Acts anyone that was added to the church was called a "disciple". What did Jesus say?.......
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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