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Author Topic: Twisting Acts 2:38 - Baptism for salvation
Michael Harrison
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It says that one must be baptized in Jesus name. I would wonder why that people read one thing on the bible page, and in their mind thinks another, except, I am just as vulnerable. But there comes a point where you discover something past what the mind limits you to. This passage says to be baptized in Jesus name. It's His name we are to be baptized in. It does not say to be baptized 'in water' in His Name. If we will look, these are two distinct sentences with different meanings. Yet the mind sees something that is not there in the command in one of those sentences. Why? Because the logic in our mind applies other instances illustrated in scripture, to what we more easily comprehend, which is physically getting wet. It seems in reading that this has something to do with it. But getting wet is a type and shadow.

So why did they dunk em in the book of Acts? I dunno! But the passage says to be baptized in Jesus Name. That is the same as being baptized into the person.

Now this goes full circle. For many think of salvation as some-thing! Salvation however is someone. The name and the person are one entity. Be baptized into the person: "For as many as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ." Because salvation is not something you get. If you don't have the person, you don't have salvation.

There are those who think that because they relate to the fact that Jesus died for their sins, that they are saved. It is for them like choosing sides for "Red Rover, Red Rover, send someone right over," and someone switches sides (if they can't break through). Or it is like choosing sides for softball, where someone chooses the players on their team, and another alternately does the same. In fact this must be where the doctrine of election comes from. For some feel that they were so elected by being chosen. That is why they think that they cannot lose their salvation. But that would be the doctrine of self election, based on the fact that they felt chosen, and seemingly complied (in image anyway). However, salvation is a participation thing. There is a distinct point wherein the believer chooses to follow, and is at this point, born again. Being born again is a part of being baptized into His name. It is how we are born again by being baptized in His name. But it does not stop there, for Paul said that, "from glory to glory He is changing me." He is implying the metamorphosis of the believer in understanding. He is implying that the revelation of Jesus is increasing and expanding within the one dimensionally, bringing one into the knowledge of Jesus, who He is to us, and to the whole of creation. This involves baptism also, together with the revelation of Him.

I do not put God in a box. He works in mysterious ways, and experience varies, still in conformity with scripture. But if you are willing to be baptized in His name, you will find Him out. Only, don't suppose that getting wet with worldly water will reveal Him to you!!! If you are going to get wet with eternal worth, immerse yourself in Him. Only pay attention! Even though it is worded this way, only He can immerse! And he will.

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jimbarn
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Baptism is a most important 'first' step in a believers life.It along with the Lords Supper are very much a part of the church. The new covenant.
Also, Mark 16:16 is not found in the earliest manuscripts, such as the Dead Sea scrolls.
Neither are for salvation,but both are teachings of our Lord.(commands,if you will.)

Jimbarn
a recovering pharisee

[Smile]

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Dale!!! Thunder!! Greetings and warm hugs to you both! Just cause i've not posted doesn't mean I have not wandered through here once in a while! Great to see you both still here too. I has been a long time! Love you both and think of you often. Hope all is well with you and yours. Dale say hello to Deb and your family! Thank you all for your prayers. It is a blessing to pray for each other and comfort to know you are prayed for! Love Ya!

Blessing in Christ's Name!
Linda

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becauseHElives
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quote:
OneinChrist said: " think as Christians we should spend more time encouraging baptism than trying to prove why it isn't necessary. "

I have to agree- this is a subject that always arouses great debate. But here is what Christ said:

I to agree....what ever scripture teach we should encourage, but being careful to add nothing to the finished work of salvation that Yahshua completed.

Salvation equals Yahshau's death burial and resurrection (His Blood on the mercy seat) and my daily responce to that Gift of Grace.

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill the law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to thee for dress;
Helpless, look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When my eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.
Let me hide myself in Thee.

http://x.imeem.com/zUilvW_RhA/?d=1

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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becauseHElives
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[wave3] Hey Linda [wave3] good to see you back [thumbsup2] My Deb ask about you the other day when we were talking. You have been on our mind and in our hearts and always will be.

In Yashua's love
dale

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Thunderz7
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hea Linda,
long time no see.

Hope and pray u are doing well,
be blessed in Jesus

love in Christ
T7

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helpforhomeschoolers
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OneinChrist said: " think as Christians we should spend more time encouraging baptism than trying to prove why it isn't necessary. "

I have to agree- this is a subject that always arouses great debate. But here is what Christ said:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I don't think that Christ's instructions regarding the nations has changed- as this was his instructions to the the apostles, it is also HIS instruction to us.

Does this mean water baptism is required for salvation? Again we must look to the scripture for the answer and it is there:

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Clearly- there is one requirement to salvation and that is belief!

We are saved by THE BLOOD not by water!

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

However! Christ SAID:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

and there is a reason for this and it is a reason that is neglected by a great number of the professing church today!

Water baptism is an outward expression of an inner condition that is NECESSARY to salvation and that is that of a contrite spirit confessing sins and submitting to the power of the almighty GOD.

Christ himself had to submit in this manner. The scripture tells us that Christ came not only by blood but by blood and water. It was at his own baptism that the heavens opened and the Spirit of the almighty proclaimed that the FATHER was well pleased with the son.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Water Baptism does not save us. Clearly Matthew 16 shows this...

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

we see two events- a man who believes and is baptisted shall be saved! Indeed!


A man who believeth not is damned!

Belief is the essential thing! BUT Baptism was important enough that Christ instructed the apostles to take Baptism to the nations. Because Baptism is the outwardly expressed confession of our sinful nature and our need for cleansing and this is absolutely necessary for the forgiveness of sins by the power of the blood.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Today too many preach a false salvation that is absent true submission... absent true humility, absent repentance, absent a contrite spirit.

Water Baptism is about the confession of our need for cleansing before the brethren and before the unseen powers that be in this world. It is about our burial of the flesh with Christ and also rising with him in the Spirit.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Does the scripture show that there were those who were baptized with the Spirit without having received water baptism? Sure!

Does that mean we are to forget and consider water baptism of no importance?

Surely not!

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oneinchrist
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Hi Isaiah,
I have to say that I do believe that you make some very good points about baptism in your post. According to the book of Acts everyone that was added to the church was baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus. I think as christians we should spend more time enouraging baptism than trying to prove why it isnt necessary. If what Peter says in the book of Acts is true, then it is God who puts His seal of approval (by His Spirit) on them who obey His Son in baptism. Now that seems to be a lot more than what a lot of churches seem to preach today. Events in history have caused this disconnect and I am going to do some research and read a few books to see when and why things have changed. Nice to fellowship with you Isaiah. Keep persevering!

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Isaiah
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It was received UPON not WITHIN -the difference is important! (Joh 14:17, last part.... dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.)

Are you saying we need not be baptized or should not if it is at all possible -or that it is no longer something we ought to do -or that it is not a prerequisite to receiving WITHIN ONE (not merely with one) God's spirit? There seems to be a lot of baptizing going on in the bible even after Christ died.

These things -and all others -can be twisted by cults, but that is no reason to do away with the necessity of baptism.

Christ, our example in all things, thought it rather important....
Mat 3:14-15 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

It should not take focus off Christ, but Christ purposefully focused our attention on IT.

If it was not important after Christ's death, why were some who were baptized by John baptized AGAIN after Christ died, so that they might receive the spirit?
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

They were still baptized with water -as was Christ of whom the following was written -but it was now possible that water baptism be followed by the following...
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It does say...
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, -but yet the surrounding verses says he DID baptize -this is not to say that baptism wasn't necessary -but that it was not the focus of what Christ sent HIM to do.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Though one can be powerful for God when the spirit is but with them..

Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

And in Acts, CHRIST PERSONALLY TOLD SAUL TO MAKE HIS WAY TO DAMASCUS, AND THAT THERE HE WOULD BE TOLD WHAT IT WAS APPOINTED FOR HIM TO DO. AFTER RECEIVING HIS SIGHT AGAIN, THE VERY FIRST THING HE WAS TOLD TO DO WAS TO BE BAPTIZED.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

It is only a physical act, but it was chosen by God, and at such time he does wash away sins, and cleans the vessel which is about to receive HIS SPIRIT WITHIN IT.

HOWEVER.........

Should God allow some circumstance to arise wherein those whom he has called have no access to any water, and he does not provide any -It is up to him whether he can make exception -but it is never up to us.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
There is but one sin that will not be forgiven man: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit!

from the text concerning the Pharisees.


Matt.12


[24] But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
[25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
[27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

[28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

[29] Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
[30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

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That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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One has to be careful whom they call cults. Jesus said, "Whosoever shall say to his brother raca, shall be in danger of hell fire." (So much for once saved always saved. Raca alone [calling him a fool] will do it.)
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WildB
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Twisting Acts 2:38 - The Question of Baptism by Water for Salvation

Craig Branch

One of the most common methods cult leaders use to establish their false doctrine is to employ segmented text attention. That is, isolating verses which on the surface seem to the novice Bible student, to affirm the cult's doctrine.

The "doctrine of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1) seeks to undermine the Person and work of Christ (i.e., a different Jesus and a different gospel, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

In line with the cult's false gospel of works as opposed to grace (Romans 11:6), in order to be justified (declared righteous) before God, many cults teach that one of several necessary steps to becoming saved is to be baptized in water. This inevitably removes the focus from Christ's finished work and imputed righteousness to the individual (faith in Christ alone by grace alone), and subtlety or overtly leads to the conclusion that "official" baptism by and into the cult (the one and only true church) actually will save.

Several groups teach baptismal salvation. Among them are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, United Pentecostals, and many Churches of Christ.

There are about eight main verses that the cults use as proof-texts for their doctrine of baptismal regeneration, but the most popular is Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them, `Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

Notice that on the surface it seems to prove their point, but not when one applies sound principles of interpretation. Remember the question to always ask is, "What does the passage mean", not, "What does it say?". For instance, Jesus seems to say in Luke 14:33 that one cannot be a disciple (Christian) unless he first gives away all his possessions. Obviously we have to interpret the verse in light of the context and in relation to the rest of Scripture.

First is the historical context. Jesus and the Gentile converts to Judaism were very familiar with the symbol of baptism for cleansing and separation. It was normal practice (Unger's Bible Dictionary, p. 122; New Bible Dictionary, Douglas, p. 131). John the Baptist continued the symbol of baptismal cleansing of repentance, but noted there was a baptism which superseded it -- that is baptism with the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8).

The grammatical context is also important. A key word in Acts 2:38 for the baptismal salvation proponents is "for"; "baptized... for the forgiveness of sins." They insist that the meaning be interpreted "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins. The problem with this insistence is that the word "for" (eis, in Greek) has several connotations in New Testament Koine Greek. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says that eis is a versatile word which primarily "denotes entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among," (p. 183).

In other words the symbol of baptism could either be pointing towards the cleansing and forgiveness (with reference to), or could pointing to the actual procuring of forgiveness (in order to).

Renowned Greek scholar A. T. Robertson states that not only does eis signify "aim or purpose" (in order to) as in 1 Corinthians 2:7, it can just as well mean "on the basis or ground of (with reference to), Matthew 10:41; 12:41.

He states that, "the illustrations of both usages are numerous in the New Testament and the Koine (New Testament Greek) generally.

"One will decide the use here (Acts 2:38) according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins..." (Word Pictures of the New Testament, pp. 35-36).

Why do the overwhelming percentage of Greek scholars agree with Robertson? Because the rest of Scripture refutes baptismal regeneration. All one has to do is read Acts 10, concerning the account of Peter taking the gospel (which saves, Romans 1:16), to Cornelius and the Gentiles. As Peter proceeds through the gospel message (vs. 34-43), the Scriptures relate that the gift of the Holy Spirit was received upon believing by these Gentiles before they were baptized in water (10:44-48; 11:17-18). Additionally, the Scripture teaches that this is the same way all are saved (Acts 11:15-18, 15:7-11).

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/baptism.htm

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That is all.....

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