|
Author
|
Topic: Dangerous trend of Biblical Hermeneutics growing.
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
wparr writes quote:
So we can take Peter's letters OUT of the Bible??
That's what you are implying.
another overreaction. It's not "either all or nothing". I'm only talking about that one statement in Peter's letter regarding the false teachers which most likely applied to the readers in his own time, as I said before. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
God bles, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged | 
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
and henceforth the main threat to the church now comes, not from false teachers trying to pull Christians back into the Mosaic system, but from outside the church from Darwinists, from scientists, from unbelievers in general, from New Agers, from Mormons, and from JWs, and similar entities, and no longer from within the church.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Boy are you
G R E A T L Y deceived and BLIND to the deception and false teaching FROM WITHIN Churches
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
quote:
Peter was warning the newly forming churches that during this transition period from the Mosaic system to the church separating in its liberty as the church of Christ, false prophets WILL come in among you and WILL introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
So we can take Peter's letters OUT of the Bible??
That's what you are implying.
What BIBLICAL basis do you have that God didn't have Peter write that warning for US TODAY also??
1 Peter 1:6-11
(6) In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
(7) so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
(8) and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
(9) obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
(10) As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
(11) seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
So then by that SAME personal application of YOURS
These by Peter aren't for today EITHER.
We AREN'T going to be distressed by various trials, that was JUST for the early church too.
1 Peter 1:14-16
(14) As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
(15) but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
(16) because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
Peter ISN'T tell us to be obedient and Holy, only the early church
WHERE does it END???????
I look at numerous commentaries on 2nd Peter 2:1 and NONE of them took YOUR viewpoint.
In fact here's what John Gill's Exposition of The Bible says
quote:
This is a prophecy of what should be, and agrees with the prediction of our Lord, Mat_24:11 and which regards not only the times immediately following, in which it had a remarkable fulfilment, for false teachers now began to arise, and appeared in great numbers in the age succeeding the apostles, but to all periods of time from hence, to the second coming of Christ; and these were to spring from, and be among such that bore the Christian name, and so regards not Mahometans and Deists; and it is to be observed, that the phrase is varied in this clause, and these are called not "prophets" but "teachers": because as prophecy was more peculiar to the former dispensation, so is teaching to the present:
Know what's kind of interesting, the verses RIGHT BEFORE those you dispute.
2 Peter 1:20-21
(20) But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
(21) for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
wparr writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
But WHAT basis do you use to determine if a particular verse applied ONLY at the time of the writing, or applies today?
Your PERSONAL feelings? (DANGEROUS)
if not my personal feelings, whose feelings should I use, wparr? yours? Get real. Every Christian uses their own feelings.
wparr continues: quote:
The flood and plagues record A HISTORICAL EVENT that already happened.
2 Peter 2:1
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there WILL also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
WILL shows FUTURE TENSE, (AND it's NT not OT)
God is giving a heads up, a warning of WHAT WAS AHEAD, NOT something that already happened.
Peter was already an adult fisherman when Peter became a disciple of Jesus around 26 A.D.
Peter thus lived and wrote in the interval between 26-30 A.D. and 70 A.D.
Peter was warning the newly forming churches that during this transition period from the Mosaic system to the church separating in its liberty as the church of Christ, false prophets WILL come in among you and WILL introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
In my mind, there is no warrant to now "fast-forward 1,950 years to our time" as if Paul was not thinking about his own time and was thinking about our time, totally unrelated to what was happening to the church then.
The fact is, it was a VERY, VERY, VERY DANGEROUS time (to use your own phrase in a more appropriate place) while the church was separating from the Mosaic system which had been in place 1,500 years.
It was not until Peter went to the Gentile Cornelius that it became understood that this church was going to be something quite different than the Mosaic system:
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then has God also to the Gentiles granted repentance to life.
But by the second century A.D., the church had fully separated and the Word of God had been fixed, and henceforth the main threat to the church now comes, not from false teachers trying to pull Christians back into the Mosaic system, but from outside the church from Darwinists, from scientists, from unbelievers in general, from New Agers, from Mormons, and from JWs, and similar entities, and no longer from within the church.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
But, is it not true that a good Bible student should also ask himself or herself whether a particual verse applies only to its time or whether the verse applies also to our own time, or is that not a good study method?
Since when is that not a valid scriptural study method?
But WHAT basis do you use to determine if a particular verse applied ONLY at the time of the writing, or applies today?
Your PERSONAL feelings? (DANGEROUS)
And BA, COME ON,
I give you more Biblical understanding credit than to compare the verses I showed to the plagues and flood.
The flood and plagues record A HISTORICAL EVENT that already happened.
2 Peter 2:1
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there WILL also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
WILL shows FUTURE TENSE, (AND it's NT not OT)
God is giving a heads up, a warning of WHAT WAS AHEAD, NOT something that already happened.
In essence, Yahweh is giving a PROPHETIC warning to His Church.
So what Bible basis do you have have that this was TOTALLY fullfilled and no longer applies today.
THAT is how a GOOD Bible student interpets God's Word - let Scripture interpet Scripture, not ones personl feelings and beliefs.
See with your personal belief that this ONLY applied to those it was written to, carried into other Scripture you could just as easily dismiss as NOT for today:
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
(ONLY for those disciples who heard Him speak this)
or Ephesians 5:1-4
(1) Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
(2) and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
(3) But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
(4) and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
(was this ONLY for The Church at Ephesus?)
See such a slipery slope to go down.
WHERE does it then end?
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(ONLY for the original Disciples - NOT for today)
I'm not saying you are dismissing those verses, but with your "It was ONLY for the first century Church" thinking process (WITHOUT ANY Scripture to back it up), people can just as easily use the same thinking to dismiss other verses.
Peter warned of false teachers;
Paul OVER and OVER warned of false teachers;
John warned of false teachers;
Judas warned of false teachers;
Y'shua warned us to "BE NOT DECEIVED"
Think MAYBE, JUST MAYBE Yahweh is sounding a warning here to carry untill the END??
I say as GOOD Biblical interpretation, this is so.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WKUHilltopper
Advanced Member
Member # 5472
|
posted
quote:
How do you see application of that with regard to women speaking in the assembly? I still feel that this a valid sripture today, many do not. How does your view of past present and future content apply with a tough scripture like that? [/QB]
To be honest with you, I feel the same way. I am not at all comfortable with a woman delivering a sermon to a congregation. God created men and women as equals, but with separate duties for each of us. I think it's perfectly fine for women to minister to women, but as a congregation I don't believe it's Scriptural. I could be wrong, but that's just my gut feeling.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WKUHilltopper
Advanced Member
Member # 5472
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
brother WKUHilltopper writes quote:
Wparr is saying that if you can refute one passage in the Scriptures, then what keeps you from disregarding others you don't care about?
Refute? Is someone now refuting a passage in the Scripture by saying that a particular scripture applied to such and such a time, like the ark of Noah or the plague of frogs in Egypt? ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Hmmm, no. I wasn't implying any one individual was refuting Scripture other than collectively as a culture. What I was commenting on was what I perceive Wparr's "slippery slope" observation to be.
Certainly, there are things that in the OT that no longer apply--we no longer have the authority to stone those who commit adultery, for example.
I think the "slippery slope" in wparr's context means caution on changing the meaning of the Scriptures. For example, God says He created everything in six days. Our culture says otherwise. The "slippery slope" is saying,"Ok, God really didn't mean six days. Six days meant something else--one day was really one million". Are we to interpret that this must be in error? So if one ("one" meaning collectively or as a society) can simply change the intent of God's actions, then how much easier does it become to change everything else? So if the Bible is truly wrong about six days, then there must be other things wrong about it, such as the sin of homosexuality. And if a person or culture has the liberty to change the word of God to their own liking, then you can finally conclude there is no God since everything else has been changed to suit the individual.
That's what I perceive wparr's point to be.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
That is a very good way of saying it Thunder. I think that well covers what BA is saying and the valid point that he is making without denying the truth that Walter is also sharing.
We are not building arks today, but all that is given regarding the ark has value to us today.
How do you see application of that with regard to women speaking in the assembly? I still feel that this a valid sripture today, many do not. How does your view of past present and future content apply with a tough scripture like that?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
brother WKUHilltopper writes quote:
Wparr is saying that if you can refute one passage in the Scriptures, then what keeps you from disregarding others you don't care about?
Refute? Is someone now refuting a passage in the Scripture by saying that a particular scripture applied to such and such a time, like the ark of Noah or the plague of frogs in Egypt?
I'm not refuting any verses in the Bible at all, as if they never existed or should not exist. I'm fully aware that all the verses that are IN the Bible are really there. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
But, is it not true that a good Bible student should also ask himself or herself whether a particual verse applies only to its time or whether the verse applies also to our own time, or is that not a good study method?
Since when is that not a valid scriptural study method?
Or perhaps I should call it what brother wparr called it, "a dangerous trend of Biblical Hermeneutics"? ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
May God bless WKUHilltopper above all the hills around him.
I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) of Yeshua-Jesus
IP: Logged |
|
|
Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
|
posted
The WORD is GOD;
was, is, and is to come;
yesterday, today, and forever.
I believe all scripture,
what "is written",
has past, present, and future content.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Amen Walt! God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His truth is absolute not relative, and it does not change with the culture.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WKUHilltopper
Advanced Member
Member # 5472
|
posted
I understand what Wparr is saying. As we're in the age of grace, thanks to the sacrifice our Lord has made, but that doesn't discount the importance of the OT. I think the slippery slope Wparr is saying that if you can refute one passage in the Scriptures, then what keeps you from disregarding others you don't care about?
Otherwise, I think Wparr is saying people now claim that homosexual relationships is now ok because our culture says so and the instructions provided from the Scriptures on this subject is out of date and do not apply. I believe that's his point and from that view, I agree completely with that position.
If you can change one part of the laws of God, then the rest are subject to modification--that's his point, I believe.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Amen Walt!!!!!!!!
The deceived will not receive, but the Brethren will be blessed by the Truth of God's Word, and your eloquent and timely post.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
WParr I do agree with most of your posts, but I also believe that there are some scriptures that applied then and not now. However, I do not think that the two you quoted are good examples. For example, women not being allowed to talk in church. Those women that were addressed were disruptive in the church so the service focus was switched from God to the distractions. I don't believe that applies today unless of course there was a church where this was happening.
BA I can't build the Ark either. My landlord has a fit if my daughter writes on the sidewalk with sidewalk chalk (although he is rarely here since he lives in Florida and rarely stays in his apartment under us thankfully) but I can't imagine him being thrilled if I decided to build a huge boat. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) He would be quite a site to see if I did try it though. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
And they have already been raining on your parade, so it can't be you. It has to be someone without rain. So whoever will make the new ark will have to live in Sub-Sahara where there has been a persistent drought. so it must be brother timspong in Nigeria. ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif)
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Or perhaps someone on this very CBBS will be called upon VERY VERY VERY soon to "make another ark after the pattern?"
Well I can tell you right now that it won't be me. My backyard is only 15' x 12' tops. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
wparr writes quote:
A VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS THING TO DO
An overreaction.
The Bible has tens of thousands of verses in it; would it be surprising if 1 or 2 or several more were applicable, in terms of their import, just for their own time?
We are, e.g., not going to have any more Mosaic plagues of flies, are we? Or are we?
Or perhaps someone on this very CBBS will be called upon VERY VERY VERY soon to "make another ark after the pattern?"
Some things in the Bible ARE only for their own time.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
That's an Excellent point Brother Walt! AMEN!
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
I have seen displayed here at thechristianbbs a method of Biblical Hermeneutics that is growing and becoming a trend within Churches.
It is a VERY DANGEROUS slippery slope to go down.
That is to dismiss Bible verses as "not applicable today" without ANY Bible based authority or justification to do so.
This has been done here with
(2 Peter 2:1)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Saying it only applied to 1st Century Church.
If it was ONLY for the people Peter wrote the letter to, they WHY DID GOD SEE FIT TO INCLUDE IT IN THE BIBLE?
WHERE within God's Word is this interpetation justified????
In essence people who do this rip out those verses from God's Word.
A VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS THING TO DO
At Church I was attending, the pastor(?) during his sermon was quoting
1st Corinthians 14:27-28
(27) If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
(28) but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
And said that "Paul was addressing an abusive situation in the Church, we don't have that abusive situation today, therefore these verses don't apply today and we don't need interpretation any more" ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I left that church (NEVER to return) saying "the pastor(?) threw The Bible out the window"
This is a slippery slope because then it becomes easier and easier to just dismiss the verses you struggle with, or don't like.
Once a person or church starts down this slippery slope WHERE DOES IT END???? ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
That's how some people justify homosexual marriage, that was for then NOT for now.
That's one method new(old pagan)age thinking creeps into churches.
If you start taking verses out that you don't think apply, you are weakening God's Word, and as the practice continues, His Word starts unraveling.
Then you start forming God in YOUR inmage (making Him to be whay YOU want Him to be like) rather than what He reveals Himself to be in HIS Word.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
