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Author
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Topic: The Difference Between Apologists and Heresy Hunters
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HisGrace
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I would prefer to let the article rest with the people, and let them discern for themselves if there is a difference between apologists and heresy hunters. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
HFHS is right. This article is a joke, and her review is dead on.
Considering how much grief you've given other people for posting articles from the internet, I don't really understand your posting this one.
What article[s]? This is the only one that I can recall that spells an opinion. Maybe I have made first-hand quotes from some the preachers. Grief? Maybe it's more like conviction.
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hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I would prefer to let the article rest with the people, and let them discern for themselves if there is a difference between apologists and heresy hunters.
HFHS is right. This article is a joke, and her review is dead on.
Considering how much grief you've given other people for posting articles from the internet, I don't really understand your posting this one.
Unless of course, this one is okay because you agree with it and it "appears" to debunk the articles that you don't agree with.
I'm afraid you picked the wrong article to use in an attempt to bolster your case on this subject.
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
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hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
This daily devotional for to-day is given by Gloria Copeland and expresses perfectly how we should always be cognisant to every little prompting of the Holy Spirit.
He Will Lead You - Gal. 5:16
This I say then, 'Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.'
Walking in the Spirit. That's the key to overcoming the flesh. If you follow the prompting of the Spirit of God within you, you won't be dominated by the pressure your flesh tries to put on you.
As you listen to the written Word and the Holy Spirit telling you what to do, you'll constantly be making little adjustments in your life according to what He says. And those little adjustments will keep darkness from overtaking you.
You see, God knows just what you need. He can look ahead in your life and see the traps and pressures the devil is laying for you. So follow the Holy Spirit's leading and He will maneuver you safely around them to victory.
Assuming that greed and materialism are considered "lusts of the flesh", I find it comical for Gloria Copeland to write on this subject.
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
All the scriptures you quote are the word of God, but they make one look at oneself. That is what fundamentalism does. It makes one look at oneself, and that is needed in the beginning for repentance and Salvation and it's an ongoing process throughout our lives, BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY THING WE DO AS CHRISTIANS. WOF teaches us to look at Jesus, not ourselves for the answers and for our Salvation and walk in faith.
I wish that I could see this. I cant. I see that WOF is still the same old works thing, repackaged and relabeled and mixed with the worldly to look appealing. It is still about man working and not resting; still about the uplifting of man and not the uplifting of HIM.
I also think that you White Eagle are the exception to the rule of people that espouse WOF, in that I do believe that you study and I dont see that you follow these teachers so much as you support seeing the deeper meanings that are in the scripture.
There is, however, a far difference between gaining wisdom and applicable understanding of the fundamental and going beyond the fundamental to what is not any longer fundamental.
I see that you do the former, but defend those doing the later thinking that they do what you do and I fear that is not the case.
We should hope I think to never be so literal that we cannot see the spiriutal deep things in the scripture. I cant view water baptism to exclude the spiritual baptism by the Spirit of God. I should not view the OT wilderness wanderings so literally that I can not see that allegorically they speak of the Church today. There are many out there who do this. BUT neither can I view things so spiritually that I negate that which is literal. My conversations over the years with you have taught me that even when you are defending WOF, personally you have not done these things. But I cannot say that of those you defend and that troubles me. It troubles me mostly because I see thousands of people out there who do not study thier Bibles and do not have a deep and intimate relationship with our LORD, but have only what they have learned through these teachers and it is seriously lacking.
I think that Deb sees the same thing. I think that just as you defend against the religiosity that has called itself Christian Fundamentalism and is not because it has hurt you; I see that she defends against the infiltration of New age spirtuallity that is nothing more than Old age, kaballah, gnosticism, babylonian occultism, repackaged and buried in today's church beginning with WOF and continuing through to pramatic church growth/emergent church apsotasy because she too has been hurt by it.
The point is neither of these things is Christianity!!! Both should be spoken against with equal zeal, and we have to come to the place where CHRIST is OUR LIFE and there is nothing else that matters. As Paul said... the place where possessing nothing we have all things and to live IS Christ and to die gain.
My heart breaks because I see things coming that if we do not have that.... we will not be able to stand.
If tomorrow we awoke to a life in Christ that looked not at all like this one, but looked like the Christian life of someone for example in the 10/40 window, would our love and realtionship with Christ be enough? I fear for many who have been told that their earthly lifestyles and wordly blessings are a sign of their faithfulness and a reward for the same, their faith will be shaken to the very bone if not gone completely because it was not in Christ in the first place.
Please dont think that I dont know that with you I am preaching to the chior because I do believe you have a real realtionship with Jesus. But White Eagle, I dont believe that about every eye that will read this, and for them I do fear, real fear, to the point of tears and prayerful sleepless nights. Maybe it is because I read too much news or maybe it is because I have a burden for and know the plight of Christians in the the 10/40 in very real and personal terms... but what ever reason, I fear for many sitting on church pews in this nation who do not have a clue and are seriously misguided if they do not know that Jesus loves those who have suffered and who do suffer now in this world for the NAME of Christ and little else of HIS Glory, and if not for the grace God go any of us! I pray that we not feel that we have need of nothing to the point that we find that we have need of everything and we have to hear him tell us that we are naked.
Do we not care that today, this day 80,000 people will die in asia without having ever heard the name of Jesus... not once, while we who are here in the richest most blessed country on the planet earth, sit comfortably in from of our TV sets to hear the latest word from take your pick and learn how God wants to bless you with a new this or a new that if you just have faith enough!
If I have a car and God wants to bless me with another Car, I guarantee it will not be for me, but to sell and send someone to the 80,000 that will die tormorrow without having heard His Name or the widow in my church that has none. THIS WALK IS NOT ABOUT US!!!! WOF teaches that it is all about us while claiming that they are teaching it is about him.. the walk and the talk dont match! A little truth with a little poison is still poison. And Satan still comes as an angel of light.
Thats all.
Love In Christ,
Linda [/QB]
Amen Sister Linda, Amen! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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HisGrace
unregistered
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posted
This daily devotional for to-day is given by Gloria Copeland and expresses perfectly how we should always be cognisant to every little prompting of the Holy Spirit.
He Will Lead You - Gal. 5:16
This I say then, 'Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.'
Walking in the Spirit. That's the key to overcoming the flesh. If you follow the prompting of the Spirit of God within you, you won't be dominated by the pressure your flesh tries to put on you.
As you listen to the written Word and the Holy Spirit telling you what to do, you'll constantly be making little adjustments in your life according to what He says. And those little adjustments will keep darkness from overtaking you.
You see, God knows just what you need. He can look ahead in your life and see the traps and pressures the devil is laying for you. So follow the Holy Spirit's leading and He will maneuver you safely around them to victory.
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
All the scriptures you quote are the word of God, but they make one look at oneself. That is what fundamentalism does. It makes one look at oneself, and that is needed in the beginning for repentance and Salvation and it's an ongoing process throughout our lives, BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY THING WE DO AS CHRISTIANS. WOF teaches us to look at Jesus, not ourselves for the answers and for our Salvation and walk in faith.
I wish that I could see this. I cant. I see that WOF is still the same old works thing, repackaged and relabeled and mixed with the worldly to look appealing. It is still about man working and not resting; still about the uplifting of man and not the uplifting of HIM.
I also think that you White Eagle are the exception to the rule of people that espouse WOF, in that I do believe that you study and I dont see that you follow these teachers so much as you support seeing the deeper meanings that are in the scripture.
There is, however, a far difference between gaining wisdom and applicable understanding of the fundamental and going beyond the fundamental to what is not any longer fundamental.
I see that you do the former, but defend those doing the later thinking that they do what you do and I fear that is not the case.
We should hope I think to never be so literal that we cannot see the spiriutal deep things in the scripture. I cant view water baptism to exclude the spiritual baptism by the Spirit of God. I should not view the OT wilderness wanderings so literally that I can not see that allegorically they speak of the Church today. There are many out there who do this. BUT neither can I view things so spiritually that I negate that which is literal. My conversations over the years with you have taught me that even when you are defending WOF, personally you have not done these things. But I cannot say that of those you defend and that troubles me. It troubles me mostly because I see thousands of people out there who do not study thier Bibles and do not have a deep and intimate relationship with our LORD, but have only what they have learned through these teachers and it is seriously lacking.
I think that Deb sees the same thing. I think that just as you defend against the religiosity that has called itself Christian Fundamentalism and is not because it has hurt you; I see that she defends against the infiltration of New age spirtuallity that is nothing more than Old age, kaballah, gnosticism, babylonian occultism, repackaged and buried in today's church beginning with WOF and continuing through to pramatic church growth/emergent church apsotasy because she too has been hurt by it.
The point is neither of these things is Christianity!!! Both should be spoken against with equal zeal, and we have to come to the place where CHRIST is OUR LIFE and there is nothing else that matters. As Paul said... the place where possessing nothing we have all things and to live IS Christ and to die gain.
My heart breaks because I see things coming that if we do not have that.... we will not be able to stand.
If tomorrow we awoke to a life in Christ that looked not at all like this one, but looked like the Christian life of someone for example in the 10/40 window, would our love and realtionship with Christ be enough? I fear for many who have been told that their earthly lifestyles and wordly blessings are a sign of their faithfulness and a reward for the same, their faith will be shaken to the very bone if not gone completely because it was not in Christ in the first place.
Please dont think that I dont know that with you I am preaching to the chior because I do believe you have a real realtionship with Jesus. But White Eagle, I dont believe that about every eye that will read this, and for them I do fear, real fear, to the point of tears and prayerful sleepless nights. Maybe it is because I read too much news or maybe it is because I have a burden for and know the plight of Christians in the the 10/40 in very real and personal terms... but what ever reason, I fear for many sitting on church pews in this nation who do not have a clue and are seriously misguided if they do not know that Jesus loves those who have suffered and who do suffer now in this world for the NAME of Christ and little else of HIS Glory, and if not for the grace God go any of us! I pray that we not feel that we have need of nothing to the point that we find that we have need of everything and we have to hear him tell us that we are naked.
Do we not care that today, this day 80,000 people will die in asia without having ever heard the name of Jesus... not once, while we who are here in the richest most blessed country on the planet earth, sit comfortably in from of our TV sets to hear the latest word from take your pick and learn how God wants to bless you with a new this or a new that if you just have faith enough!
If I have a car and God wants to bless me with another Car, I guarantee it will not be for me, but to sell and send someone to the 80,000 that will die tormorrow without having heard His Name or the widow in my church that has none. THIS WALK IS NOT ABOUT US!!!! WOF teaches that it is all about us while claiming that they are teaching it is about him.. the walk and the talk dont match! A little truth with a little poison is still poison. And Satan still comes as an angel of light.
Thats all.
Love In Christ,
Linda
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150
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posted
Amen to White Eagle and HisGrace !!!!!!!!!!!
I still get great teachings from some WOF sermons. The Holy Spirit uses them to HIS purpose. If it were sin to listen to them He would have told me and HE hasn't.
My eyes are open to what God wants me to what HE wants me to study. He is using them to HIS purpose and blessing many people by their teachings.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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HisGrace
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Softtouch, I think you totally misunderstand the WOF aspect of Christianity. They take it beyond the fundamentals. You quote alot of scripture, but have you lived in it? WOF teaches people how to live in Faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus commandment: Love the Lord and love others as oneself. (very simple) yet impossible to do without faith and the Holy Spirit.
All the scriptures you quote are the word of God, but they make one look at oneself. That is what fundamentalism does. It makes one look at oneself, and that is needed in the beginning for repentance and Salvation and it's an ongoing process throughout our lives, BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY THING WE DO AS CHRISTIANS. WOF teaches us to look at Jesus, not ourselves for the answers and for our Salvation and walk in faith.
Amen and Amen WhiteEagle!! This is the most powerful lesson I have learnt from the WOF'ers - that we have to fix our eyes on Jesus. We must never turn our gaze away. God doesn't want us to forget for one second what Jesus did for us, through his shed blood, on that cruel cross.
John 3:30 He must become greater and greater, and I must become less and less.
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
White Eagle: I was reading this (quote below) and thinking on another statement you made about going back to the times of the Puritans (my praphrase)
quote:
I see fundamentalism as legalism and very narrow minded. It lacks creativity or freedom. It's Salvation under works. The fruit is disillusioned people, unfruitful Christians, hidden alcoholics, adulteries kept hidden and a mask presented to the world.
Maybe it is our Maine familial roots that connected here, but I could relate to what you are saying. Our grammy is 94 God Bless her, but when my mother in law was a young woman,her mother made her to walk to school with her Bible in hand to demonstrate her (Boy I dont know... her chastity probably)her "good" girlness! This to my dear MIL who really was a good girl was tramatizing because she was teased and she still talks of this today. Never mind the fact that the pastor of the little Baptist church was skimming the tithe to buy his alcohol!
You are right, that is a picture of legalism under the guise of fundamentalism. But is it really fundamentalism? Is it right to call it fundamentalism?
Wouldnt true fundamentalism be the teaching that we do not need war with our flesh, because Jesus has set us free from bondage to the desires of our flesh?
Yes, it is legalism that causes man to try and do himself what ONLY Christ in us can do and that is change our hearts and give us peace and make us to desire what HE desires and not what our flesh desires.
But fundamentalism must teach what is true and what is basic and simple and FUNDAMENTAL to our faith and that is that CHRIST has done what could not be done by us in our flesh because the flesh is weak.
Raceism is not FUNDAMENTAL to Christianity - it is antithesis with Christianity.
Pure looking outside while sin filled lusting inside is not fundamental with Christianity, it is antithesis with Christianity.
We could list a page of autracities done over the centuries in this nation and even more done in Europe in the name of Fundamentalist Chrsitianity that are anything and everything but fundamental to Christiantiy.
But are they fundamental to Christianity? NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your post, Linda. I speak out against these things from experience with them. I have been hurt by this kind of religion.
Softtouch I too take the Bible literally, actually more literally than a typical fundamentalist.
Softtouch, I think you totally misunderstand the WOF aspect of Christianity. They take it beyond the fundamentals. You quote alot of scripture, but have you lived in it? WOF teaches people how to live in Faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus commandment: Love the Lord and love others as oneself. (very simple) yet impossible to do without faith and the Holy Spirit.
All the scriptures you quote are the word of God, but they make one look at oneself. That is what fundamentalism does. It makes one look at oneself, and that is needed in the beginning for repentance and Salvation and it's an ongoing process throughout our lives, BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY THING WE DO AS CHRISTIANS. WOF teaches us to look at Jesus, not ourselves for the answers and for our Salvation and walk in faith.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
Amen Sister Linda, that was a Great Post! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
White Eagle: I was reading this (quote below) and thinking on another statement you made about going back to the times of the Puritans (my praphrase)
quote:
I see fundamentalism as legalism and very narrow minded. It lacks creativity or freedom. It's Salvation under works. The fruit is disillusioned people, unfruitful Christians, hidden alcoholics, adulteries kept hidden and a mask presented to the world.
Maybe it is our Maine familial roots that connected here, but I could relate to what you are saying. Our grammy is 94 God Bless her, but when my mother in law was a young woman,her mother made her to walk to school with her Bible in hand to demonstrate her (Boy I dont know... her chastity probably)her "good" girlness! This to my dear MIL who really was a good girl was tramatizing because she was teased and she still talks of this today. Never mind the fact that the pastor of the little Baptist church was skimming the tithe to buy his alcohol!
You are right, that is a picture of legalism under the guise of fundamentalism. But is it really fundamentalism? Is it right to call it fundamentalism?
Wouldnt true fundamentalism be the teaching that we do not need war with our flesh, because Jesus has set us free from bondage to the desires of our flesh?
Yes, it is legalism that causes man to try and do himself what ONLY Christ in us can do and that is change our hearts and give us peace and make us to desire what HE desires and not what our flesh desires.
But fundamentalism must teach what is true and what is basic and simple and FUNDAMENTAL to our faith and that is that CHRIST has done what could not be done by us in our flesh because the flesh is weak.
Raceism is not FUNDAMENTAL to Christianity - it is antithesis with Christianity.
Pure looking outside while sin filled lusting inside is not fundamental with Christianity, it is antithesis with Christianity.
We could list a page of autracities done over the centuries in this nation and even more done in Europe in the name of Fundamentalist Chrsitianity that are anything and everything but fundamental to Christiantiy.
But are they fundamental to Christianity? NO!!!!!!!!!!!
So is fundamentalism the enemy or is the devil who perverts what is fundamental the enemy???
Have we not become part of the problem and not the solution when we adopt the devil's lies that say that these things are fundmental?
You cant get more fundamental than what Jesus taught! Should we not seek to be as fundamental as Jesus was about our faith?
Can we not see the enemy at work in this situation in the global scheme of things. We have Isalm that is fundamentally violent, oppressive, and worse. I say fundamentally so because it is their Holy Book that dictates these things.. they are things fundamentally true to the Islamic religion.
Then we have that being contrast with things that are NOT fundamental to the Christian faith, but are called fundamental.
Instead of bashing Christian Fundamentalism, should we not be shouting about what is done in the name of fundamentalism but IS NOT fundamental and IS NOT CHristian?????
Instead we embrace what the enemy has invented and called Christian and is not and we bash what is Fundamental to the Faith and call what is anything but fundamental fundamental?????
ughhhhhhhhhhh! This is so backaward....so wrong...so the true work of Satan all the way around!
Fundamental Christianity is not leglistic or opressive; it has never beaten anyone or flogged anyone or burned a cross on a lawn, or carried a horrid mutilated baby picture to protest abortion and it surely has never protested the war at the grave site of a soldier and screamed obcenity at his wife and family!
Likewise, fundamental Christianity does not teach men to love and cling to and desire the things of this world; it does not find pleasure in the worldly;it does not teach us that our treasure is here in earthly goods; it does not feed the shepherds on the backs of the sheep; it does not teach man to love his life; it does not exalt material goods and make them to be a sign of one's faithfulness; it does not teach man to seek man's purpose in this life. It does not reduce our LORD Jesus to a spiritually dead man who had to battle demons in the pit of hell to free my soul and yours. It does not teachj that the church is here to put the devil under the feet of Christ or to form sweeping armies of Christians and send them out to establish a Christian kingdom on earth by the hand of men, and on and on...
It occurs to me that we might better serve the body if we sought to learn and teach what it means to be fundamental in our faith and seek that, and likewise HIM who is the most fundamental expression of our faith rather than the lies of the devil promoted by men on both sides of this issue.
JMHO
Peace Be with YOU!
Linda
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
What is a Christian Fundamentalist?
The term fundamentalism includes many different areas of application -- such as religious fundamentalism, and scientific fundamentalism -- but as far as Christianity is concerned, fundamentalism is a strictness of literal interpretation of the Scriptures, and a desire to take the Bible seriously in all matters.
Fundamentalism in the media has been applied primarily to religious extremists, like "militant, Muslim fundamentalists." Following in that broad stroke of application, if any other group claims to be a "fundamentalist" they are looked upon as ALSO being extremist, and like the militant Muslim fundamentalist, they are looked upon as being dangerous. Nothing could be further from the truth!
The term “fundamentalism” today is, of course, simply misleading.
In Christianity it refers to those who read the Bible literally, those who believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
By this definition, every Muslim also is a “fundamentalist,” because every Muslim believes that the Quran is the unadulterated word of God delivered in the Arabic language to the Prophet Muhammad. And they also take it quite literally.
The fact that both are fundamentalists just means they take both books literally. One is safe, and sacrificial of their own lives, while the other is deadly, and sacrificial of others.
I'll add this: Most every mathematician is a fundamentalist too! To be a recognized mathematician, he or she must take math statements literally, and must believe the science of mathematical law as not allegorical, and subjective, but absolute. Does that approach to the study math make a mathematician DANGEROUS? Of course not! Only the subjective mathematician is dangerous, because math facts are truths are up to his or her feelings at that moment instead of to absolute laws.
Christian Fundamentalism comes from the Bible, and was promoted by Jesus Christ Himself. And believe me, it is the safest way of thinking and living ever presented to mankind!
SCRIPTURES THAT DEMAND LITERAL FUNDAMENTALISM
The Bible demands literal interpretation of its Scriptures. Christians call that a fundamental approach to the Scriptures. If a believer takes the Bible seriously he or she will be a fundamentalist. Following are some of the Scriptures that demand fundamentalistic approach the interpretating the Bible:
THE BIBLE DEMANDS STRICTNESS IN DOCTRINE
Matthew 28:20 -- Jesus commanded His disciples to go into all the world, “Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Teach everything Jesus taught without adjustment, or partiality.
Acts 20:27 -- The Apostle Paul explained, “For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.” He had not held back from teaching anything that the Bible said. That is quite a task!
Ephesians 4:14 -- Paul also says that without an absolute, fixed reference point of literal truth, believers would remain confused and deceived when he challenges us, “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.”
1 Timothy 1:3 -- “As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach NO OTHER DOCTRINE.” There were many other "teachers" who constantly tried to introduce new doctrines into the Christian belief system, but because the doctrine was settled with the Apostles, no more was to be tolerated. Did you get that? There is NO TOLERATION for any other doctrine than is already taught in the Scriptures, literally!
1 Timothy 6:13-14 -- “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; that thou keep this commandment WITHOUT SPOT, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 Timothy 1:13 -- “Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.”
2 Timothy 2:2 -- “And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, THE SAME commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.”
Titus 1:9 -- “Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”
THE BIBLE DEMANDS THAT WE TEST ALL THINGS
Isaiah 8:20 -- “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
Matthew 7:15 -- “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
Acts 17:11 -- “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
Romans 12:2 -- “... that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
1 Corinthians 2:15-16 -- “But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
Ephesians 5:10 -- “Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.”
Philippians 1:10 -- “That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.”
1 Thessalonians 5:21 -- “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
1 John 4:1 -- “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
Revelation 2:2 -- “I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”
THE BIBLE DEMANDS CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
Galatians 2:5 -- “To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.”
Philippians 1:7 -- “Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel.”
Jude 3 -- “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”
THE BIBLE DEMANDS PLAIN EXPOSURE OF ERROR
Psalm 119:128 -- “Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.”
Romans 16:17 -- “Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.”
Galatians 2:11 -- “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.”
1 Timothy 1:19-20 -- “Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.”
2 Timothy 2:16-18 -- “But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.”
THE BIBLE DEMANDS SEPARATION FROM ERROR AND APOSTASY
Romans 16:17 -- “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID THEM.”
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 -- “BE YE NOT UNEQUALLY YOKED TOGETHER WITH unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. WHEREFORE COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.”
2 Thessalonians 3:6 -- “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye WITHDRAW YOURSELVES from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”
1 Timothy 6:3-5 -- “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF.”
2 Timothy 3:5 -- “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.”
Titus 3:10 -- “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition REJECT.”
2 John 10-11 -- “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, RECEIVE HIM NOT into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
Revelation 18:4 -- “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
THE BIBLE DEMANDS STRICT SEPARATION FROM SIN AND WORLDLINESS
Matthew 6:24 -- “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. YE CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MAMMON.”
Romans 12:2 -- “And BE NOT CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
2 Corinthians 6:3 -- “Giving NO offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.”
Ephesians 5:11 -- “And have NO fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”
1 Thessalonians 5:22 -- “Abstain from ALL appearance of evil.”
Titus 2:11-14 -- “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY LUSTS, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from ALL INIQUITY, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
James 1:27 -- “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and TO KEEP HIMSELF UNSPOTTED FROM THE WORLD.”
James 4:4 -- “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the FRIENDSHIP OF THE WORLD IS ENMITY WITH GOD? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”
James 4:8 -- “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. CLEANSE YOUR HANDS, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.”
1 Peter 1:15 -- “But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in ALL MANNER OF CONVERSATION.”
1 John 2:15-17 -- “LOVE NOT THE WORLD, NEITHER THE THINGS THAT ARE IN THE WORLD. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
1 John 5:19 -- “And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
Source: http://www.biblebc.com/Christian_Helps/what_is_a_christian_fundamentali.htm
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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WhiteEagle
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Softtouch:
Concerning judging, Paul said he didn't even judge himself.
We are to be fruit inspectors. If the doctrine is wrong the fruit will be wrong.
What is the fruit of the WOF movement?
What is the fruit of Fundmentalism?
Good questions to ask yourself.
I see fundamentalism as legalism and very narrow minded. It lacks creativity or freedom. It's Salvation under works. The fruit is disillusioned people, unfruitful Christians, hidden alcoholics, adulteries kept hidden and a mask presented to the world.
The Word of Faith gives hope, it challneges people to really read their Bibles and see what God is saying and what is written and challenges people to apply those words to their lives.
Gospel means Good News.
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
The Favorite Mantra of the False Teachers of the Word Faith Movement is “Touch Not God’s Anointed!” Yet, they use this scripture Totally Out Of Context (which again is no surprise from a movement that claims it’s followers are all ‘little messiahs’ and ‘god men’). The moment anyone Dares to point out the Errors of their teaching this is the cry… and then the one pointing out the errors are labled “Heresy Hunters.” Nevermind the Clear Commands of God’s Holy Word (Our ONLY True Ruler to Judge Doctrine by) which tells us
quote:
2 Timothy 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
I found a very good article that I hope you’ll take the time to read. It shows how this ‘mantra’ is being taken out of context (something we’re Not supposed to do with God’s Holy Word).
“Touch Not God’s Anointed?”
In Acts 20:28 the Apostle Paul warns that false prophets and false teachers shall arise from among us in the church. Surely this prophecy is being fulfilled today, as we see so much error and bizarre behavior being embraced and promoted in the church today. This disease has spread even to some, who in the past seemed so discerning when it came to the pure doctrine of the Word of God.
When an honest correction is made by some sound Bible apologist to a false teaching, the cry by some, who are ignorant in God's Word, is invariably "touch not God's anointed"! Then these "faithful" individuals rally around the false teacher, or self appointed "anointed one", and defend whatever outrageous teaching he/she has most recently propagated. Would not a truly called individual welcome an honest and biblical correction? Look at Paul the Apostle who praised the Bereans because they checked the scriptures to see if what he (Paul) had taught was correct. Are today's arrogant "anointed" greater than the Apostle Paul? We think not!
Let's take a look at how the Bible defines the term "God's anointed", which the misled Christians often cite as proof for their defense of error. In Chronicles 16:22, we see this appearing in a psalm of thanksgiving that David had written to God. David is thanking the Lord for His protection as they entered the land of Canaan. In verse 21 David says: "He (God) suffered no man to do them wrong, yea, He reproved kings for their sakes, saying touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm". Here God is warning the kings of heathen nations not to touch His anointed people the Israelites. The Hebrew word for "touch" means exclusively to physically lay hands on, or to strike someone as a means of punishment. God was simply warning the Canaanites not to do harm to his chosen people, the Hebrews. In Psalms 105:15 this is simply repeated and should not be considered a separate usage.
The other reference that is often used to warn people not to challenge false teachings by these modern day prophets and false teachers is 1 Samuel 24:6. Here David sneaked up on King Saul as he lay sleeping in a cave, and cut off a portion of Saul's robe. David exclaimed: "6And he said unto his men, The LORD forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the LORD's anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD.".
The same Hebrew word is used here as in the previously quoted verses. The word is naga and always means to physically touch another person. Under no circumstances can it mean to question the teachings of some "anointed one". God does not have any "sacred cows" when it comes to false doctrine. On the contrary we see over and over in the scriptures that we are to be accountable to each other and the Word of God in whatever we teach and practice.
Another favorite passage of these false teachers is Matthew 7:1 that states "Judge not, that ye be not judged." This has been twisted by these false teachers to mean that Christians can never make judgment about their teachings or doctrines. However, Jesus is here warning us not to judge someone else's sins if we are practicing those sins ourselves! Nothing here about judging doctrinal error. We as well as our teachings will be judged against God's Word. Christ certainly was not telling us not to judge the doctrines of these teachers, as these "anointed ones" often claim today.
In The Bible we are told to try the spirits, (1 John 4:1), to judge prophecies (1 Corinthians 14:29); to distinguish between good and bad fruit (Matthew 7:16-23); identify false teachers (Romans 16:17,18); and to discern good from evil in a person's life and behavior as well as in his teachings (Hebrews 5:11-14). And this is just a short list of God's warnings about false teachings.
It continually amazes us that men would prefer to spout false doctrine when the real teachings of the Bible are so much superior.
Come, let us all be like the Bereans - not afraid to challenge and correct anyone who brings heresies into the church under the guise of being "anointed", ever remembering this commandment: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine ye have learned; and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).
quote:
Matthew 24:23-27. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)
http://www.ibae.org/html/touch.html
Sorry, I know you are responding to Pleasemaranatha, but there is so much here that is making me rather ill.
Being "god-men" or little gods as has been bandied about from the WOF teachings as heresy:
Yet... the Bible implicitly teaches us "Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Testing the spirits: he who denies that Christ IS come in the flesh 1 John 4:2-4 (KJV) "IS" is a continuous present tense. ie Christ in the believer, the Hope of Glory. as well as meaning Christ came to earth the Son of God found in the form of a man.
So he who denies that Christ is come in our flesh as believers is of the antichrist. As well as those who deny that Christ is God come in the form of a man in the flesh.
We have God in us. Christ in us. We have the Holy Spirit and God is with us and in us.
I'm not a little god, but I can understand how the WOF use this analogy to explain out what I just wrote to aid people in understanding the meaning of Christ in us, the hope of Glory.
One can't judge any doctrine until they have practiced the correct doctrine in their own life.
Words are words and have different meanings to different people. Even the words written in the Bible when read by the fleshly mind. It's the Holy Spirit that leads you to be able to judge the soundness of a doctrine, not one's abiltiy to read.
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HisGrace
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I would prefer to let the article rest with the people, and let them discern for themselves if there is a difference between apologists and heresy hunters.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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This article is such a joke! This article is not about discerning the difference between a Heresy Hunter and an Apologist!!!!!!! I am not a hyper Calvinist and I am certainly not a cessationist, but this article is not about empowering the Body of Christ or bringing discernment.
This article is about defending Word of Faith.
The author uses the very tactics that he claims one should look for to determine who are Heresy Hunters and makes himself to be one in the process.
The very first of the seven things (which by the way are about three things and four that are just restatements of each other)this person claims heresy hunters do is use labels, and then he proceeds to make this statement:
quote:
Yet, when you listen to them talk they often sound like Hyper-Calvinists and Cessationists
In this same paragraph where he claims early church fathers like Irenaeus as true Apologists, he goes on to admonish people for using the labels of Gnosticism and others.
Perhaps this author has never read the works of the early church fathers like Irenaeus’ Against Heresies or Tertullian’s Prescription against Heretics. Maybe he does not know that they named names un ashamedly and called Gnosticism as such, and called for the invocation of Church Discipline against them. Tertullian felt that the likes of Valentinus and Marcion did not even have the right to utter the scriptures as they were heretics and not brethren.
If this writer had studied the life’s works of these men and lies of the heretics that they exposed he might know that the very heresies of the likes of EW Kenyon, and Kenneth Copeland and Hagin are just modern day versions of the same heresies the heresies that the early church fought against.
I find it ironic that this writer would choose George Muller as someone to compare with the apostates of today’s word of faith movement. Muller was a Calvinist; Muller was fully aware of the Bible’s call for the Christian to deny self and live this life not for the pleasures of self but for HIS Glory, which is a far cry from the WOF movement’s continual cry of “Lord Bless ME!” Muller saw self denial in this life as a postponement of pleasure in this life, for the hope of far greater blessing in the one to come and God did bless him in this life, but Mueller did not lavish that blessing on himself, he used it to care for the children the world forgot… and not after he had blessed himself in all abundance either!
I just don’t see how anyone could place Mueller in the same category as today’s WOF teachers and preachers. There is no comparison. Mueller was a lover of God for GOD and not for what God could do for him, and Mueller sought no glory for himself; Mueller sought to give GOD the glory for all things and to have happiness in his soul no matter what the circumstances of his life. Mueller gave all his income to the church from 1830 till his death in 1898! Mueller never asked a single soul for donations to his support his causes.
This author wants you to see the people that print this on websites as heresy hunters doing an injustice to those who spread apostasy, but lets look at who it was that said these things:
quote:
In the beginning of the Pentecostal movement at Azusa street in 1906, the leaders of this movement, William J. Seymour and Charles Parham were labeled "rulers of spiritual Sodom." Another person labeled them, "Satan's preachers, jugglers, necromancers, enchanters, magicians, and all sorts of mendicants." This same person also labeled the Pentecostal movement as "spiritualism." Another well known preacher of that time labeled it, "the last vomit of Satan." A Bible teacher whose writings I love made a statement about the Pentecostal movement that I disagree with: "emphatically not of God and founded by a Sodomite".[3]
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Pentecostals were also falsely labeled as "hypnotists," "mentally unstable" and attributed the miraculous
G. Campbell Morgan, contemporary of Seymour and Parham, Westminster Chapel pastor who is to this day for his gift of exegesis and Biblically sound doctrine and exposition of the scriptures, described the Azusa Street activities as "the last vomit of Satan."
Rueben Archer Torrey, intimate friend of DL Moody, pastor of the Chicago Avenue Church, a scholar of the scripture, a man said by his colleagues to have been a man who lived in continual prayers, and a man who is to this day of impeccable reputation, declared that this new Pentecostal movement was "emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite."
This is the reputation of H. A. Ironside: “Never formally ordained and with no experience whatever as a pastor, Ironside took over the 4,000-seat Moody Memorial Church in Chicago and often filled it to capacity for 18 1/2 years. A seminary president once said of him, "He has the most unique ministry of any man living." Although he had little formal education, his tremendous mental capacity and photographic memory caused him to be called the "Archbishop of Fundamentalism." And he a man respected to this day for his solid doctrinal stance said both the holiness and Pentecostal movements were "disgusting. . .delusions and insanities." In 1912 he said of their meetings "pandemonium's where exhibitions worthy of a madhouse or a collection of howling dervishes," were causing a "heavy toll of lunacy and infidelity."
W.B. Godbey’s reputation is not as impeccable perhaps as the others who spoke against the goings on at Azusa Street, this is largely because he was an eccentric and remained loyal to Wesley and Methodistism at a time when many were leaving, but he is to this known for his hell fire and damnation style of preaching and his commitment to holiness as a lifestyle. He said of the Azusa Street participants "Satan's preachers, jugglers, necromancers, enchanters, magicians, and all sorts or mendicants," and he claimed the movement was the result of spiritualism.
Clarence Larkin is also a man whose reputation is unchallenged. He is best known for his chart and drawings explaining dispensationalism. And of Azusa Street he said: "But the conduct of those possessed, in which they fall to the ground and writhe in contortions, causing disarrangement's of the clothing and disgraceful scenes, is more a characteristic of demon possession, than a work of the Holy Spirit. From what has been said we see that we are living in "Perilous Times," and that all about us are "Seducing Spirits," and that they will become more active as the Dispensation draws to its close, and that we must exert the greatest care lest we be led astray."
All of these men were contemporaries of the time with Seymour and Parham ; they are to this day respected contributors to American Church history and contributions to the Church are un- refuted to this day.
What is even more Ironic to me however, is that this author does not bother to tell his readers that Parham himself rebuked Seymour for what happened on Azusa Street:
Parham publicly denounced the revival and its leaders in October 1906 using the following adjective phrases to describe what he saw: "awful fits and spasms" of the "holy rollers and hypnotists." "sensational Holy Rollers." He described the Azusa "tongues" as "chattering, jabbering and sputtering, speaking no language at all" (Synan, p. 102).
Parham said the Azusa Street meetings were largely characterized by manifestations of the flesh, spiritualistic controls, and the practice of hypnotism (Sarah Parham, The Life of Charles F. Parham, Joplin, MO: Tri-state Printing, 1930, p. 163).
According to Parham, two-thirds of the people professing Pentecostalism in his day "are either hypnotized or spook driven" (Parham, Life of Charles Parham, p. 164).
In his writings about Azusa Street, Parham described men and women falling on one another in a morally compromising manner. I have seen this same thing in video recordings of Laughing Revival services.
When Parham arrived in Azusa Street in 1906, he began his first sermon by telling the people that "God is sick at his stomach" because of the things which were occurring at Azusa (Charles Shumway, A Study of the "Gift of Tongues," A.B. thesis, University of California, 1914, pp. 178,179; cited by Goff, Fields White Unto Harvest, p. 131).
To my understanding Parham never changed his opinion of Azusa Street. But the author of this article either does not know this or intentionally left it out thinking his readers would not know it.
quote:
By giving the false labels to Word-Faith which these heresy hunters have done, they have placed themselves in the same league as the Pharisees of Jesus day and have placed us in the same company as our Lord Jesus. Those of us affiliated with the Word-Faith movement should be thankful for this minor persecution.:
My mom would have said this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black; personally I find the arrogance and pride of this statement to be very telling. This is not the statement of one who seeks to have his readers seek God’s Biblical Truth above all things; this is not a statement of love for one’s brethren gone astray; this is not even a statement of one godly brother rebuking the error of his brother. This is a statement that truly separates the “Heresy Hunter” from the apologist, defender of the faith, heresy expositor – this is a statement of a man who has a personal agenda and that agenda is the defense of WOF apostasy. Further, it is a statement that shows ignorance of the scripture, as the church will be according to the scripture be persecuted by the world, not the brethren and so either this person considers these godly men of American church history (Torrey, Ironside, Clarence Larkin) not to be part of the church, or he does not know what the scripture says about the persecution of the church.
Point 2: Heresy Hunters take scripture out of context:
quote:
Therefore, Hagin was simply stating that man was created in God's image and has a higher place than the angels and other created beings. In this sense, Hagin is teaching that man was created in God's class. Further more, Hagin was simply teaching the truth that we are members of Christ's body. He was not teaching that each Christian is the Messiah Himself. He was teaching that we are a part of one body and that we have a place and position in Christ that we often do not recognize. Besides, Mr. Hux neglected to include Hagin's proof Scripture (2 Cor. 6:15) as well as Hagin's full statement. Hagin was by no means teaching that God was a big man and that we are on His level.
This writer’s defense of Hagin further shows his lack of discernment; while it is very true that the OT word translated angels is elohim, but sound hermeneutics tells us that when that very scripture is quoted in the NT by Paul the word used is Aggelos and not theos. Therefore, scripture being the interpreter of scripture and not man…. The KJV translation angels is an accurate one. Further, the OT was not written in Greek. The Septuagint came out of Babylon, and that should speak something to someone.
Further, Mr. Hux may have failed to include 2 Corinthians 6:12 as Hagin’s proof text, but that does not change the fact that it is Hagin who takes this scripture out of context and manipulates it to fit his own theology. Clearly this scripture when shown in full context shows that Paul is saying AS CHRIST HAS NO CONCORD WITH BELIAL – YOU WHO ARE BELIEVER”S and are the TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GOD HAVE NO CONCORD WITH IDOLS OR INFIDELS because GOD IN YOU HAS NONE.
IS GOD A TEMPLE or DOES GOD DWELL IN ONE? We are the body of Christ for certain, but I assure you we are in this life being conformed to the image and likeness of Christ from the inside out and this tent of flesh and bones that we dwell in is not Christ like and never will be. It is being left here with the rest of the things corruptible. The followers of Hagin do not understand that if they did, they would be preaching the same Gospel Christ preached and they do not. They would like the great men of the church that this author has belittled in this article know that this life is temporary and our reward and treasure is not found in the corruptible things of this life that will burn here with this world and they would know that we are to seek that which is above and not here below, but they don’t. They preach instead “Bless me Lord, with all things earthly” not realizing that the church has so much more than what is earthly… we have been blessed now with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies.
3. Comparison method
Again, I find this author’s attempts to put Copeland in the same category with the likes of Spurgeon to be laughable. He doesn’t like that Copeland’s teachings are compared to new age, which is really old age, but none the less. He tries to compare Spurgeon. I tell you if Spurgeon had used the words the Copeland uses, and called faith a force as Copeland has, Copeland would still be preaching new age heresy and Spurgeon not… because Spurgeon would understand that faith is something that we press into GOD with and not something that we use to exert our authority over the devil with and demand of God what we believe to be ours. That is because Spurgeon understood that we have no authority over the devil. Spurgeon understood that the devil is the God of this world and our salvation has bought us from under the authority of the devil, but that we are here to resist the devil and stand against his wiles and not to rule over him. Spurgeon also clearly understood that prayer is not demanding from God your rights, but humbly and reverently making known to him through supplication the desires of your heart which should match the desires of HIS if you be led by HIS spirit and hello, if you think that the desire of God heart for you is to drive around in a new Mercedes, that you gained by fleecing the flock, while 80,000 people today die in the 10/40 window and face eternity in hell then you better get praying for some discernment and wisdom.
It is true that Jesus was accused of doing the works of Beelzebub, by the Pharisee. However it is also true that the Pharisee did not know the Father GOD.
Does this author assert that those who see the Heresies of Copeland and Hagin and most if not all the WOF movement as apostasy do not either know the Father God?
The works of Jesus were the works of the Father. Somehow, I just cannot see that the works of Copeland and Hagin and Hickey and the WOF movement can be likened to the works of Jesus. For one thing Jesus did not do those works for profit and taught that we give freely as we are given to freely. Where does Jesus teach the apostles to take from the Kingdom and bless themselves and then throw the rest of what is left to the children under the control of the devourer? Where do the apostles teach this to the church? This is exactly what the WOF preachers do.
You will note that it was the children of the devil that did not recognize the Father or discern HIS presence from the presence of the enemy… the sheep knew their shepherd and followed HIM not the teachings of men.
4. False Implications
Again the author shows that his article would have been more honestly titled “In Defense of WOF” as that is clearly his agenda. This whole section makes me ill to my stomach to read.
“Kenyon believed that the cross is where Jesus bore our sins. Kenyon certainly believed that the cross was a necessity. The reading of several of his books would affirm this. The references are too numerous to quote. However, Kenyon believed strongly in the message of the cross. He simply wanted his readers not to stop there and settle on the cross but to go beyond that to the resurrection and the ascension. However, the modern day apologists will not tell you that”
What this author does not tell you is that the implications are anything but false and what Kenyon believed and what Copeland teaches is that the work was not finished on the cross and Jesus had to go to hell and fight the demons for the keys to the gates of Hades and be born again in hell and then raised. This is blasphemy!
Jesus was raised in the flesh that he died in nail prints and all because his flesh had no sin except that which he bore of those who slew him and that the grave could not hold him and HE went there with all authority and power and had to battle no one in HELL for the Keys cause Jesus went to the grave with the Keys in HIS HOLY HANDS, where they had always been. The victory was won on the cross when the blood was shed to pay the price of sin period for all mankind. It was able to pay the price ONLY because it was completely innocent and it was completely innocent because it was GOD manifest in the flesh. Yes, it is the rising of Christ that is our hope of also rising. But Jesus did not die a spiritual death in hell. Jesus defeated sin IN THE FLESH ON THE CROSS, and the implications of anything else deny the very deity of Christ! AND that my friends is Heresy of the Pharisee!!!!!
5. Sensationalizing
God is fully capable of keeping His church from being "destroyed from within." However, the Heresy Hunter must use such sensational tactics as Christianity being in a "Crisis," or that the Faith Teachers are preaching a "different" gospel, or that we have become a "cancer" or "AIDS" in the body of Christ.
This author’s words here speak louder than mine ever could! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Is this man defending the word of God or the words of men? Does this man seek to have you know the Bible so well that you can be wise as serpents and harmless as doves or does this man seek to push his own agenda, which is the same agenda as the coming ecumenical world wide religion of lying signs and wonders of the Antichrist church? That is the persecution of the saints of God who fear only God and desire only what God wills and stand against the devil and his deceptions and tell people to not be deceived by the itching ears of their flesh and conformed to the ways of the world but to read their Bibles and be transformed into the image of Christ.
Wake up folks…. The Christ in my Bible does not look like EW Kenyon or Kenneth Copeland or Marylyn Hickey or Joyce Meyers. The Christ in my Bible was humble and self sacrificing and gave freely and loved fully and unconditionally and laid his life down for the church… he did not brag or boast or exalt himself and his ministry he was obedient to the Father and HE exalted the Father. He was a servant of the people he loved and he served then with HIS very life. We are asked the same only we don’t have to die to give our selves… we are a living sacrifice. Show me some sacrifice in these WOF preachers. Show me then teaching sacrifice. Show me one Paul among them. It just is not there. There is no piety, no humility, no sacrifice; they love this life and they preach the love of this life and all the things of this world and that is antithesis of what Jesus preached.
6. Theological Prejudice/Bias in interpreting proof texts of those that they disagree with
I love this question: “Does Embracing The "Right" Theology Make One Superior?”
Then of course it is followed by a dissertation of the Pharisee.
Hello! There Pharisee did not embrace right theology. The Pharisee embraced the written word and tried to remove from it the spirit of the law that was Jesus/ God’s Grace not yet manifest in the flesh.
It is equally in error to think that one can embrace the Spirit of God apart from the word of God. God and HIS word cannot be separated!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man lives not by Bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth from the Father…
It is not important what any man think about what God has said… it is important what God has said and HIS word does not contradict HIS Spirit.
7. Incorrectly using "Scholarship" to make their point
I suppose not using scholarship at all is preferable???
Honestly, I don’t agree with some that this author has posted in opposition of . I don’t agree with MacArthur on many things for example he subscribes for example to Covenant theology for one thing and this is not scriptural.
None the less, this article is a joke. It is not good scholarship or even well substantiated opinion. It clearly has been ill named and would have been more accurately and honestly titled “In Defense of WOF”
There are Heresy Hunters out there and that is indeed the work of the devil who plays both sides of the fence and wants to stop the work of the Church in ministering to the body to be Bereans and not followers of men.
It is very simple to know a heresy hunter. A heresy hunter is one whose heart is not one of love for the truth and whose burden is not for the children of God. A heresy hunter seeks to exalt himself and his agenda at the expense of someone else. He usually begins with good intentions but the enemy gets the best of his flesh and he begins to think that God needs his trumped up help to get HIS agenda heard.
The apologist or heresy expositor, even though he may make human mistakes and not be an eloquent writer or speaker, desires one thing and that is what God desires, and that is that none should perish, be deceived, or devoured by the enemy, but that all should seek God and HIS kingdom first, and esteem no man above the word.
If you want to defend WOF, more power to you defend away, the WORD will stand for itself, but trying to disguise your defense as something it is not is about the same as heresy hunting in my mind.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Hi His Grace! Greetings in the name of the Most High God!
Most on this message board are born again Christians, how true, BUT NO CHRISTIANS KNOWS IT ALL and sharing your faith and instruction as the Spirit leads is the will of God. In this world of 7 billion plus people, how many people do you think are truly born again! I trully believe only a small percentage are born again. As the bible states in Matthew 7:13-14
" ENTER YE IN AT THE STRAIT GATE: FOR WIDE IS THE GATE AND BROAD IS THE WAY, THAT LEADETH TO DESTRUCTION, AND MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT; BECAUSE STRAIT IS THE GATE, AND NARROW IS THE WAY, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FINDETH IT."
There are people who will use feelings to mandate their belief and not the word of God. When I read the Bible, I rather use one translation because it teaches me thru the Spirit. I become nervous when a person use 20 different versions of the bible to have their claims be justified. This almost sound, "I want to say this to be correct"! That could be dangerous. Even Paul stated that if you desire a gift, desire the best gift.
There are alot of shrewed people out there that have lost their vision or maybe they never had it!
In the same chapter of Matthew it goes on to say many will say, Lord, Lord but their hearts never accepted what Jesus said to do!
Last night at work, I had been challenge by a Muslim, he had asked- Who do you believe to be the messenger" And I replied the Messiah is Jesus the Christ! I went in detail about what that means. You see in Islam, they believe a final messenger will come to advenge the world for turning their backs on Allah! I asked him to translate the word Allah to English and tell me what it is! He said God! I told him Jesus fills each prophecy of old down to the tittle and dot 100% concerning the rites of the Messiah. There is no other one under earth where by you can be saved!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
They usually deny the Virgin birth, the Bodily ressurection of Jesus the Christ; they deny that Hell ever existed and heaven only abids in dimentions while on earth. That man is finite and has no spiritual essence. These are usually the ones who say Lord, Lord but are ravening wolves! They devour from with in.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) The majority of the ones who are reviewed on this board profess to be born-again Christians.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Apologetics is the study of defending the Christian Faith especially how to debate against those religions that are not Christian. Most Christian can basically give an answer of why they believe in Jesus. However Apologetics uses sciences like archeology etc for those people who would rather kill the Jews and Christians. If you would like to understand apologetics alittle better. Check out www.apologeticscourses.com
Why should you accept the Bible as innerant? Why should you believe in one God versus many gods?
Is there any extra-biblical proofs that the history it claims truly exist!
There are those who uses the Christian Faith to rip down others just because they have a nominal, apostatical view.
They usually deny the Virgin birth, the Bodily ressurection of Jesus the Christ; they deny that Hell ever existed and heaven only abids in dimentions while on earth. That man is finite and has no spiritual essence. These are usually the ones who say Lord, Lord but are ravening wolves! They devour from with in.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
Dear Soft Touch,
I wrote, "We should br careful not grieve the Holy Spirit". I was speaking of myself too. You know that saying about when you point your index finger at someone, you have 3 pointing back at yourself. I don't want to judge others because I can see my failings. None of us are perfect...just Jesus.
I really didn't think you were pointing fingers at me in particular ![[Wink]](wink.gif) I understand what you're saying here, but by the same token the Bible admonishes us to Judge Righteous Judgement and to Test the Spirits. We're to hold All Teaching up to the Light of the Scriptures and if it doesn't line up, then we have clear direction on what to do (which is in the other thread I linked to here )
I'm honestly not trying to 'bicker' but just shed light on an issue that seems to get pushed under the bed a lot. I do hope you'll take the time to read the article above and the other thread as well. There is Solid Biblical Truth to feast on in them
And thanks for the hug! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Pleasemaranatha
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Dear Soft Touch,
I wrote, "We should br careful not grieve the Holy Spirit". I was speaking of myself too. You know that saying about when you point your index finger at someone, you have 3 pointing back at yourself. I don't want to judge others because I can see my failings. None of us are perfect...just Jesus.
I just want to show mercy and agape love during my life. God is so good to us all. Some of the members might have gotten blessed by the WOF preachers. I know I have. God has used many people from alot of faiths to do His will. I am wanting to be careful not to attack someone who might be an annointed man of God.
Hey everyone can have an opinion here can't they?
I Love you guys !!!!!!!!! Let's not bicker sis. ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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SoftTouch
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With all due love and respect Pleasemaranatha, the Holy Spirit is Never grieved when someone follows HIS commandments to correct error I hope you'll check out the new thread here on "How Do You Deal With False Teachers?": http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000103;p=1#000000
Now, onto addressing the Source of the first post here...
I find it not at all surprising that this ‘admonition’ is coming from a website entirely created to Defend the Word Faith Movement. Check out the homepage: http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/index.html
The Favorite Mantra of the False Teachers of the Word Faith Movement is “Touch Not God’s Anointed!” Yet, they use this scripture Totally Out Of Context (which again is no surprise from a movement that claims it’s followers are all ‘little messiahs’ and ‘god men’). The moment anyone Dares to point out the Errors of their teaching this is the cry… and then the one pointing out the errors are labled “Heresy Hunters.” Nevermind the Clear Commands of God’s Holy Word (Our ONLY True Ruler to Judge Doctrine by) which tells us
quote:
2 Timothy 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
I found a very good article that I hope you’ll take the time to read. It shows how this ‘mantra’ is being taken out of context (something we’re Not supposed to do with God’s Holy Word).
“Touch Not God’s Anointed?”
In Acts 20:28 the Apostle Paul warns that false prophets and false teachers shall arise from among us in the church. Surely this prophecy is being fulfilled today, as we see so much error and bizarre behavior being embraced and promoted in the church today. This disease has spread even to some, who in the past seemed so discerning when it came to the pure doctrine of the Word of God.
When an honest correction is made by some sound Bible apologist to a false teaching, the cry by some, who are ignorant in God's Word, is invariably "touch not God's anointed"! Then these "faithful" individuals rally around the false teacher, or self appointed "anointed one", and defend whatever outrageous teaching he/she has most recently propagated. Would not a truly called individual welcome an honest and biblical correction? Look at Paul the Apostle who praised the Bereans because they checked the scriptures to see if what he (Paul) had taught was correct. Are today's arrogant "anointed" greater than the Apostle Paul? We think not!
Let's take a look at how the Bible defines the term "God's anointed", which the misled Christians often cite as proof for their defense of error. In Chronicles 16:22, we see this appearing in a psalm of thanksgiving that David had written to God. David is thanking the Lord for His protection as they entered the land of Canaan. In verse 21 David says: "He (God) suffered no man to do them wrong, yea, He reproved kings for their sakes, saying touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm". Here God is warning the kings of heathen nations not to touch His anointed people the Israelites. The Hebrew word for "touch" means exclusively to physically lay hands on, or to strike someone as a means of punishment. God was simply warning the Canaanites not to do harm to his chosen people, the Hebrews. In Psalms 105:15 this is simply repeated and should not be considered a separate usage.
The other reference that is often used to warn people not to challenge false teachings by these modern day prophets and false teachers is 1 Samuel 24:6. Here David sneaked up on King Saul as he lay sleeping in a cave, and cut off a portion of Saul's robe. David exclaimed: "6And he said unto his men, The LORD forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the LORD's anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD.".
The same Hebrew word is used here as in the previously quoted verses. The word is naga and always means to physically touch another person. Under no circumstances can it mean to question the teachings of some "anointed one". God does not have any "sacred cows" when it comes to false doctrine. On the contrary we see over and over in the scriptures that we are to be accountable to each other and the Word of God in whatever we teach and practice.
Another favorite passage of these false teachers is Matthew 7:1 that states "Judge not, that ye be not judged." This has been twisted by these false teachers to mean that Christians can never make judgment about their teachings or doctrines. However, Jesus is here warning us not to judge someone else's sins if we are practicing those sins ourselves! Nothing here about judging doctrinal error. We as well as our teachings will be judged against God's Word. Christ certainly was not telling us not to judge the doctrines of these teachers, as these "anointed ones" often claim today.
In The Bible we are told to try the spirits, (1 John 4:1), to judge prophecies (1 Corinthians 14:29); to distinguish between good and bad fruit (Matthew 7:16-23); identify false teachers (Romans 16:17,18); and to discern good from evil in a person's life and behavior as well as in his teachings (Hebrews 5:11-14). And this is just a short list of God's warnings about false teachings.
It continually amazes us that men would prefer to spout false doctrine when the real teachings of the Bible are so much superior.
Come, let us all be like the Bereans - not afraid to challenge and correct anyone who brings heresies into the church under the guise of being "anointed", ever remembering this commandment: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine ye have learned; and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).
quote:
Matthew 24:23-27. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)
http://www.ibae.org/html/touch.html
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Pleasemaranatha
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Dear HisGrace, I enjoyed your post! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
We should be careful not to grieve The Holy Spirit. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
God please continue to Bless HisGrace and her loved ones.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
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HisGrace
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quote:
---Nevertheless, there comes a fine line between the valid ministry of an Apologist (one who is defending the faith given to the church) and the need to search for something to use against those you may disagree with theologically in order to make them appear cultic and heretical to the general public. The latter is a Heresy Hunter. Heresy Hunting has become a cultic practice unto itself and the purpose of this essay is to show the reader the invalidity of such a practice. I will show you seven tactics that these people use in their vendetta against those they do not agree with. I will especially show you how these tactics have been used in the attacks against the Word of Faith movement.
web page
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