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Author
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Topic: Did Jesus Christ Desire Evil In Gethsemane?
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jasonlevene
Community Member
Member # 5007
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by rancan6776:
Anyone who knows "TRUTH" knows that evil has never been a desire. If we christians who are all man hate evil think how much more Jesus hates it.
In fact I believe that it was the fact that the sins of the world being placed on Him is the very reason our Savior despised the cross. It seperated him from the Father. "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?"
This is what Jesus did not want.
If our Savior despised the cross, and separation from the Father, and it was God the Father's will that Jesus go the cross and be separated from the Father, then you are saying Our Savior despised the Father's will...and that is evil.
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The Gethsemane Formula: Revealing The True Jesus
http://www.jasonlevene.com
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yeshuaslavejeff
Advanced Member
Member # 4506
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by rancan6776:
Anyone who knows "TRUTH" knows that evil has never been a desire.
>Really, what about:Matthew 5:28
>But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman >lustfully has already committed adultery with her >in his heart.
If we christians who are all man hate evil think how much more Jesus hates it.
In fact I believe that it was the fact that the sins of the world being placed on Him is the very reason our Savior despised the cross. It seperated him from the Father. "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?"
This is what Jesus did not want.
Nowhere in Scripture can you show that Jesus did
not want to happen what happened. I think you
could find in Scripture that the Father and Jesus
PLANNED IT ALL BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD.
Death was the price for sin, was separation?
I think english doesn't do justice to the original
(which I don't know if anyone knows yet)
because Jesus had to suffer death as the Lamb Who
was Slain "since the creation of the world"
but did He have to be separated? He may not even
have asked the question(s) posed in most english
translations about 'the cup' and 'forsaken me'.
Maybe He did, and maybe we'll find out some day.
RE another quote:
"Satan wanted Him to die without making it to the cross. Satan wants to invalidate God's prophetic truth. That is what I think the prayer is about, search and see."
Scripture says that if the enemy of Yeshua had
known the Plan of G_d, he would never have had
Him nailed to the tree. He had no idea of the
Plan of G_d through the crucifixion, and very much wanted Yeshua to die on a tree, thinking by doing
so the Hope of mankind would be foiled.
The enemy would have prevented Yeshua's birth and
life in any way possible, true, from the corruption of mankind by fallen angels, the death of every male child under 2 in bethlehem,and the repeated atttempted extermination of G_d's People.
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1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)
Posts: 75 | From: tulsa | Registered: Mar 2005
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rancan6776
Advanced Member
Member # 3943
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posted
Anyone who knows "TRUTH" knows that evil has never been a desire. If we christians who are all man hate evil think how much more Jesus hates it.
In fact I believe that it was the fact that the sins of the world being placed on Him is the very reason our Savior despised the cross. It seperated him from the Father. "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?"
This is what Jesus did not want.
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yeshuaslavejeff
Advanced Member
Member # 4506
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posted
I never thought this before in the last 30+ years,
but, as it is so with many many other 'words',
perhaps the original is not at all what we get in
english translations,
perhaps Yeshua did not ask a question even;
He certainly never sinned - that's not the question,
but the apostate wolves in sheeps clothing were
already at work when the letters of Paul to the
church(es) were written, and it is easy to show that
by the 3rd to 4th century the true disciples had had
to run for their lives with the true Scriptures into
hiding, and the 'official' 'church' corrupted the
scripture they had in their possession and turned
it into the basis for their heirerarchal power
with overwhelming deception.
Since even the so called church fathers and other
'ancient' authorities and documents like the vulgate? were already fallen away from the faith
in Yeshua and from the one true Plan of Yhwh -- the true Gospel -- turning aside to another gospel
just as Yeshua and Paul and the other apostles
warned had happened/would happen;
further since most all the organized religious groups, churches, schools, etc
are accepting/heading toward/falling for the
one world church and government,
who do you trust???
RE scripture: "Whoever trusts in man is cursed."
and "No one who puts there trust in Yhwh will
ever be disappointed."
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1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)
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jasonlevene
Community Member
Member # 5007
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
2. Jesus did not want to drink of the cup. --'O my father, if it is possible, let his cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will but as you will.' (Matthew 26:39)
Naw, He knew that He could talk to His Father as a Friend, and He was simply expressing His feelings as a Son of man at how enormous and painful the coming task was--yet He made Himself available.
I think His response was more like "O Father, I wish this would have to be done, but I agree with You that it needs to be done", type of response.
BORN AGAIN
I agree with you in the sense that he never expected God the Father to actually take the cup away from him but his words clearly confirm that he did not want to drink of the cup.
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The Gethsemane Formula: Revealing The True Jesus
http://www.jasonlevene.com
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
2. Jesus did not want to drink of the cup. --'O my father, if it is possible, let his cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will but as you will.' (Matthew 26:39)
Naw, He knew that He could talk to His Father as a Friend, and He was simply expressing His feelings as a Son of man at how enormous and painful the coming task was--yet He made Himself available.
I think His response was more like "O Father, I wish this would not have to be done, but I agree with You that it needs to be done", type of response.
BORN AGAIN
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by jasonlevene:
quote:
Originally posted by In Rhythm...:
I write this not to argue with jasonlevene. I write this instead that those who believe may not be sidetracked by deceptive doctrines, but be steadfast in the knowledge of Christ. We must guard God’s word as our most precious possession, is this age when Christian apologetics is almost extinct.
Believe it or not, this is what Christianity is all about. Discussion, debate, trying to discern what is righteous and what is heresy.
quote:
Originally posted by In Rhythm...:
I would begin to challenge this assertion here...Never is Jesus thinking about not going through with it. Taken in context, he is simply asking the Father if there is another way (within His will) to save us.
He is scared, but he is not filled with or did desire evil. There is nothing wrong with clarifying the will of God. Here is what Jesus basically means: “God, if there is another way (within your will), let it be, otherwise proceed”.
Now you still have to ask the question...why was Jesus seeking 'another way'? If Jesus never thought about not going through with going to the cross, why did he ask God the Father to 'take the cup away from him'? Yes he left it up to God the Father and in this way continued to remain obedient to him but you and I both know that his words confirm that he did not want to go to the cross. This puts points 3 and 4 back in play. Jesus desired the nullification of the will of God for the gratification of his flesh.
Also, Jesus did not choose to abandon the cross...he just did not want to endure it. Choosing gratifies one's desires and Jesus chose to gratify his desire to remain obedient to God and go to the cross as God's will had required (Matt. 26:42) --against his own will.
What is Will and what is Truth and where does Christ Stand?
Bible, King James Version
John.18
[38] Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
from the text http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4850941
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That is all.....
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jasonlevene
Community Member
Member # 5007
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by In Rhythm...:
I write this not to argue with jasonlevene. I write this instead that those who believe may not be sidetracked by deceptive doctrines, but be steadfast in the knowledge of Christ. We must guard God’s word as our most precious possession, is this age when Christian apologetics is almost extinct.
Believe it or not, this is what Christianity is all about. Discussion, debate, trying to discern what is righteous and what is heresy.
quote:
Originally posted by In Rhythm...:
I would begin to challenge this assertion here...Never is Jesus thinking about not going through with it. Taken in context, he is simply asking the Father if there is another way (within His will) to save us.
He is scared, but he is not filled with or did desire evil. There is nothing wrong with clarifying the will of God. Here is what Jesus basically means: “God, if there is another way (within your will), let it be, otherwise proceed”.
Now you still have to ask the question...why was Jesus seeking 'another way'? If Jesus never thought about not going through with going to the cross, why did he ask God the Father to 'take the cup away from him'? Yes he left it up to God the Father and in this way continued to remain obedient to him but you and I both know that his words confirm that he did not want to go to the cross. This puts points 3 and 4 back in play. Jesus desired the nullification of the will of God for the gratification of his flesh.
Also, Jesus did not choose to abandon the cross...he just did not want to endure it. Choosing gratifies one's desires and Jesus chose to gratify his desire to remain obedient to God and go to the cross as God's will had required (Matt. 26:42) --against his own will.
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The Gethsemane Formula: Revealing The True Jesus
http://www.jasonlevene.com
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In Rhythm...
First Post
Member # 5404
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posted
I write this not to argue with jasonlevene. I write this instead that those who believe may not be sidetracked by deceptive doctrines, but be steadfast in the knowledge of Christ. We must guard God’s word as our most precious possession, is this age when Christian apologetics is almost extinct.
To say that Jesus was evil, or had evil within him, is to deny that while fully human, he was fully God. And to say that he did not have our emotions and feelings, is to deny that while fully God, Jesus was fully human.
1. It was God the Father's will that Jesus drink of the cup. (Matt. 26:42) This is correct.
2. Jesus did not want to drink of the cup. --'O my father, if it is possible, let his cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will but as you will.' (Matthew 26:39)
I would begin to challenge this assertion here. Let’s first examine God’s side of the issue. Jesus, as God, understood exactly what was going to happen to him. He knew the prophecies inside and out. After all, he gave them to the prophets. On the human side, he was scared as could be. How would you feel, if you could end world hunger, but first you had to be tortured and then killed, and you knew exactly what would happen to you? That was part of the deal with being fully human. He could feel every lash of the whip, every thorn in his head, every punch, and each nail. Nobody in their right mind would look forward to this kind of treatment. Never is Jesus thinking about not going through with it. Taken in context, he is simply asking the Father if there is another way (within His will) to save us.
3. Jesus thus did not want to fulfill the Father's will and in this way he desired evil. (An unfulfilled Father's will is the equivalent of unfulfilled divine prophecy - that cancels out YHWH altogether)
He is scared, but he is not filled with or did desire evil. If that were the case, he would have run away instead of going to the garden of Gethsemane. He clearly wanted the Father’s will from the beginning. That is why he was there. That is why he chastised Peter for fighting back. He knew how it would have to go down. There is nothing wrong with clarifying the will of God. Here is what Jesus basically means: “God, if there is another way (within your will), let it be, otherwise proceed”. He was voicing his fear to the Father, while remaining humble and obedient. There is no wrong in this. Jesus fulfilled the will of the Father and each prophesy. YHWH is, was, and will always be who He says he is, and can not ever be defined by our limited expressions.
4. Point 4 is a moot point because points 2 and 3 were previously refuted. Jesus obeyed from the beginning, and would never have acted or desired outside of the Father's will.
Take care, those that believe, not to even listen to the words of those that go against the very nature of Christ you that have been taught, lest the enemy sow doubt upon you too. Guard your hearts.
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"No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier." 2 Timothy 2:4
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven, or deescended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is HIS Sons name.
If you know?
Psalms 68:4-5
Sing to Yahweh, sing praises to His Name;
Extol Him who rides on the clouds.
By His Name YAH.,
And rejoice before Him.
A Father of the fatherless, a defender of widows, Is Yahweh in His holy habitation.
John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has commanded all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
I(Yeshua) can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is rightous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of THE FATHER who Sent Me.
John 20:17 Yeshua said to her, Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to MY Father; but go to My brethern and say to them, I am ascending to MY Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.
John 1:2 He (Yeshua) was in the beginning WITH Yahweh.
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
I always have a problem with creeds and the like, as the ones I have read seem to begin with the Father as the creator, but I have never seen this written in Scripture.
At the start of John 1 we learn that the Word created all things, and that that word is Christ. This follows throughout the N.T. as well, there is one Lord. It doesn't matter which testiment we read, it is the same one Lord, that is to say the manifestation of God is the Messiah, and it is the Messiah which created all things. And this manifestation of God was made flesh and tabernacled with His people Israel, called the Word and in Genesis 1:1 called 'ĕlôhîym.
And in the very last verses the Bible gives us, last as far as looking as far forward as we have definate words for, that God will one day be all in all. Not the Father, but God.
At time present the Son had been given all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, but one day God will be all in all:
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Taking Isaiah 45 apart it becomes much more clear:
Isaiah 45:1. THUS SAITH JEHOVAH...
3. I, JEHOVAH ... AM THE ELOHIM OF ISRAEL.
5. I AM JEHOVAH ... THERE IS NO ELOHIM BESIDE ME.
6. I AM JEHOVAH, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE.
7. I, JEHOVAH DO ALL THESE THINGS.
8. I, JEHOVAH HAVE CREATED IT.
11. THUS SAITH JEHOVAH, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL,
AND HIS MAKER.
13. SAITH THE JEHOVAH OF HOSTS.
14. THUS SAITH JEHOVAH. SURELY EL IS IN THEE;
AND THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO ELOHIM.
15. VERILY THOU ARE AN EL THAT HIDEST
THYSELF, 0 ELOHIM OF ISRAEL, THE SAVIOUR.
17. BUT ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED IN JEHOVAH.
18. FOR THUS SAITH JEHOVAH THAT CREATED THE
HEAVENS; ELOHIM HIMSELF THAT FORMED THE
EARTH AND MADE IT... I AM JEHOVAH; AND
THERE IS NONE ELSE.
19. I, JEHOVAH SPEAK RIGHTEOUSNESS.
21. HAVE NOT I, JEHOVAH? AND THERE IS NO
ELOHIM BESIDE ME; A JUST EL AND A SAVIOUR;
THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.
22. FOR I AM EL, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE.
24. SURELY IN JEHOVAH HAVE I RIGHTEOUSNESS
AND STRENGTH.
25. IN JEHOVAH SHALL ALL THE SEED OF ISRAEL BE
JUSTIFIED, AND SHALL GLORY.
Now read the chapter through and tell me, are Jehovah, El, and Elohim one and the same? Is there only one God? And is not that one God Creator, Saviour, and the only One to be worshipped? And did you note that in verse 23 El says something that is repeated in Ph'p 2:10? According to this, Christ is El. And El is both Elohim and Jehovah.
Lastly I can say that God became the Father once He begat Himself of the seed and offspring of David. The following verse reveals a relationship we later learn is connected with the word 'adoption', Israel being one of the three in Scripture:
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exo 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
The only other place I am aware of in the O.T. of God being called the Father is when He likens Himself as such in a future time when once the Son would come into the flesh, future tense:
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.
But as such, God was never called the Father till Christ came and was called the Son. In the end God shall be all in all once Christ is able to return to that Spirit which we know God is, for He must reign till...that God may be all in all.
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Tennessee Elijah
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Member # 5277
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posted
Please find scripture in the Bible to support or refute this: The Father Creator, Jehovah God is perfect. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
There is no evil in God.
Lucifer is not perfect, because he was created with freedom to make choices -- just as Adam and Eve were empowered to do.
In our world of this day, many people tend to misunderstand the simplicity of God's Word.
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DO A WEB SEARCH TO FIND JIGROP
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yeshuaslavejeff
Advanced Member
Member # 4506
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posted
{3. Jesus thus did not want to fulfill the Father's will and in this way he desired evil.}
Yeshua always pleased, and always wanted to please,
His Father. If Yeshua had ever desired evil, He
would have been divided against Himself - He never
chose to want nor to desire evil, nor to disobey in
even a jot or tittle His Father's Instructions.
Yeshua perfectly obeyed, else He could not be
anyone's Saviour.
The original Hebrew probably was much more clear, as
is very very often the case. Yhwh's Word is never
broken.
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1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
For my brethren and companions' Peace be within thee.
Authorized Version 1769
Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
In the New Testament there are 23 synonymous words used for:
"SIN", "WICKEDNESS", "EVIL", "UNGODLINESS", "DISOBEDIENCE", "TRANSGRESSION", ETC.
The AV could have done a much better job for English readers, if only it were written later. Below are several examples, Youngs being perhaps most likely to carry the original thought forward for us.
This verse is somewhat difficultly rendered with the seemingly odd multiple negatives and probable internalizing of the word (hamartia) 'sin' has being a verb. This Greek word is always a noun.
It may be likened to trying to hand me something I don't want to take, and saying I was tempted. Technically I was being tempted even though it is not tempting to me or I would want it. It is the presentation by an outside force of something that internally I could never deire or accept.
Related to this subject, in the Greek, we can have two, three, four, five negetives all stacked up, and this declares a stronger sense of the negative, in this case we are really reading that Christ will never be failing to hit the mark, and this particular word translated 'sin' always means in a moral sense = a sin, whether by omission or commission, in thought, word, or deed.
'Hamartia' used in connection with the sin-offering (Heb. 10:6, 8, 18; 13:11, as in Ps. 40:6, cp. Lev. 5:8).
Look at it in a straight Greek translate without the idiomatic language:
Concordant Greek Text Sublinear -ultraliteral English
Heb 4:15
NOT for WE-ARE-HAVING chief-SACRED-<One> NO beING-ABLE TO-TOGETHER-EMOTION to-THE UN-FIRMnesses OF-US <One>-HAVING-<been>-triED YET according-to ALL according-to LIKEness apart-from sin
Concordant Literal New Testament and the Concordant
Heb 4:15
For we |have not a Chief Priest not |able~ to sympathize with our *infirmities, yetbut One Who |has been tried~ accordingin all respects according like us, apart from sin.
YLT
Heb 4:15
for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but one tempted in all things in like manner-apart from sin;
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Hebrews 4:15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
It can be noted that in the surrounding verses the Lord was waring of great demoniacs being present, the disciples were overtaken into sleep, the Christ was being attacked with everything Satan had to bring, He was sweating great drops as blood, a sign of near death. Satan was attempting to bring His death before the fulfillment of prophecy, it was that way from the beginning, and so Christ prayed to let this cup of death which He was then under attack of pass from Him, then angels came an ministered unto Him.
Satan wanted Him to die without making it to the cross. Satan wants to invalidate God's prophetic truth. That is what I think the prayer is about, search and see.
Joh 18:11
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
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jasonlevene
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Member # 5007
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
quote:
tell me where this formula goes wrong:
I can only tell where I see it wrong.
quote:
1. It was God the Father's will that Jesus drink of the cup. (Matt. 26:42)
I agree with the formula so far.
quote:
2. Jesus did not want to drink of the cup. --'O my father, if it is possible, let his cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will but as you will.' (Matthew 26:39)
Still agree with the formula up to this point,
Jesus, who was fully man, didn't want to drink the cup.
quote:
3. Jesus thus did not want to fulfill the Father's will and in this way he desired evil. (An unfulfilled Father's will is the equivalent of unfulfilled divine prophecy - that cancels out YHWH altogether)
Though Jesus, who was fully man, didn't want to drink the cup;
Jesus, who was fully God, did obey the Father's will.
[here is where I see the formula as wrong]
So there is no unfilled Father's will,
there is no unfilled divine prophecy,
Jesus did drink the cup,
YHWH was not canceled,
YHWH "is" and HE "is" a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM.
T7
I agree...number 4 of the formula is:
4. Jesus rejected his 'evil' desire to not drink of the cup by concluding that: --'O my father, if this cup can't pass away from me unless I drink it, thy will be done.' (Matthew 26:42)
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The Gethsemane Formula: Revealing The True Jesus
http://www.jasonlevene.com
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
quote:
tell me where this formula goes wrong:
I can only tell where I see it wrong.
quote:
1. It was God the Father's will that Jesus drink of the cup. (Matt. 26:42)
I agree with the formula so far.
quote:
2. Jesus did not want to drink of the cup. --'O my father, if it is possible, let his cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will but as you will.' (Matthew 26:39)
Still agree with the formula up to this point,
Jesus, who was fully man, didn't want to drink the cup.
quote:
3. Jesus thus did not want to fulfill the Father's will and in this way he desired evil. (An unfulfilled Father's will is the equivalent of unfulfilled divine prophecy - that cancels out YHWH altogether)
Though Jesus, who was fully man, didn't want to drink the cup;
Jesus, who was fully God, did obey the Father's will.
[here is where I see the formula as wrong]
So there is no unfilled Father's will,
there is no unfilled divine prophecy,
Jesus did drink the cup,
YHWH was not canceled,
YHWH "is" and HE "is" a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM.
T7
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
There is no "formula" and your premice is flawed by being filtered through your misperceptions.
What think you of Christ, Jason?
Have you ever placed your faith and trust in Him?
There is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus.
Romans 10:
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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helpforhomeschoolers
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It is not a sin to have the will of a man. It is sin to know that God is God and still to not surrender it to the will of God.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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many responses already made:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=003213;p=0
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If it be possible, let this cup pass from me;
meaning not only the hour, as it is called in Mark, the present season and time of distress, and horror; but all his future sufferings and death, which were at hand; together with the bearing the sins of his people, the enduring the curse of the law, and the wrath of God, all which were ingredients in, and made up this dreadful bitter cup, this cup of fury, cursing, and trembling; called a cup, either in allusion to the nauseous potions given by physicians to their patients; or rather to the cup of poison given to malefactors the sooner to dispatch them; or to that of wine mingled with myrrh and frankincense to intoxicate them, that they might not feel their pain, or to the cup appointed by the master of the family to everyone in the house; these sorrows, sufferings, and death of Christ being what were allotted and appointed by his heavenly Father: and when he prays that this cup might pass from him, his meaning is, that he might be freed from the present horrors of his mind, be excused the sufferings of death, and be delivered from the curse of the law, and wrath of God;
which request was made without sin, though it betrayed the weakness of the human nature under its insupportable load, and its reluctance to sufferings and death, which is natural; and yet does not represent him herein as inferior to martyrs, who have desired death, and triumphed in the midst of exquisite torments: for their case and his were widely different; they had the presence of God with them, Christ was under the hidings of his Father's face; they had the love of God shed abroad in them, he had the wrath of God poured out upon him; and his prayer bespeaks him to be in a condition which neither they, nor any mortal creature were ever in.
Moreover, the human nature of Christ was now, as it were, swallowed up in sorrow, and intent upon nothing but sufferings and death; had nothing in view but the wrath of God, and the curse of the law; so that everything else was, for the present, out of sight; as the purposes of God, his counsel and covenant, his own engagements and office, and the salvation of his people; hence it is no wonder to hear such a request made; and yet it is with this condition, "if it be possible". In Mark it is said, "all things are possible unto thee", (Mark 14:36) ; intimating, that the taking away, or causing the cup to pass from him, was: all things are possible to God, which are consistent with the perfections of his nature, and the counsel of his will: and all such things, though possible in themselves, yet are not under such and such circumstances so; the removal of the cup from Christ was possible in itself, but not as things were circumstanced, and as matters then stood; and therefore it is hypothetically put, "if it be possible", as it was not; and that by reason of the decrees and purposes of God, which had fixed it, and are immutable; and on account of the covenant of grace, of which this was a considerable branch and article, and in which Christ had agreed unto it, and is unalterable; and also on the score of the prophecies of the Old Testament, in which it had been often spoken of; and therefore without it, how should the Scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? they would not have been the Scriptures of truth.
Besides, Christ had foretold it himself once and again, and therefore consistent with the truth of his own predictions, it could not be dispensed with: add to all this, that the salvation of his people required his drinking it; that could not be brought about no other way in agreement with the veracity, faithfulness, justice, and holiness of God. This condition qualities and restrains the above petition; nor is it to be considered but in connection with what follows:
nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt;
which shows that the request was far from being sinful, or contrary to piety to God, or love to men, or to true fortitude of mind; the pure natural will of Christ, or the will of Christ's human nature, being left to act in a mere natural way, shows a reluctancy to sorrows, sufferings, and death; this same will acting on rational principles, and in a rational way, puts it upon the possibility the thing, and the agreement of the divine will to it. That there are two wills in Christ, human and divine, is certain; his human will, though in some instances, as in this, may have been different from the divine will, yet not contrary to it; and his divine will is always the same with his Father's. This, as mediator, he engaged to do, and came down from heaven for that purpose, took delight in doing it, and has completely finished it.
John Gills Commentary
The statement merely shows the agony of His humanity as the wrath of God upon sin is going to fall upon and be borne upon Jesus as the propitiation for ALL sin.
The statement shows the faithfulness and absolute dedication of His diety in His willingness to suffer the most abject horror and degredation for humanity to fufill the Father's will.
Luke 22:
39: And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
40: And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
41: And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42: Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43: And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44: And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
At no time did Jesus desire other than to do the Father's will, and at no time did He do other than the Father's will.
John 10:
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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jasonlevene
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Member # 5007
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posted
If anyone says this is blasphemy, tell me where this formula goes wrong:
1. It was God the Father's will that Jesus drink of the cup. (Matt. 26:42)
2. Jesus did not want to drink of the cup. --'O my father, if it is possible, let his cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will but as you will.' (Matthew 26:39)
3. Jesus thus did not want to fulfill the Father's will and in this way he desired evil. (An unfulfilled Father's will is the equivalent of unfulfilled divine prophecy - that cancels out YHWH altogether)
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The Gethsemane Formula: Revealing The True Jesus
http://www.jasonlevene.com
Posts: 18 | From: Bronx, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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