|
Author
|
Topic: Europe
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I am an American and before I was 30 years old I had never stepped a foot outside of Florida and so I was naive at best that life was any different anywhere else than there. I am married to an Army brat who lived 24 years in Germany on the economy not a military base and was educated in German schools. He also has traveled Europe and lived 3 years in Korea... also on the economy.
Based on my knowledge of life which I have come to understand through 15 years with my European reared American husband, and his European and asian born siblings I think that there is a great deal of truth in Freddy's first post is true, although I am not sure that I see it as being as positive as the Eroupeans here do in many ways though.
I do think that Europeans are more... there is that word again.. liberal.. actually more humanistic in their thinking that we are in the west. More tollerant of other cultures and beliefs... a more pluralistic society than we are in the west. Rather Ironic for a country that calls itself a melting pot. From a humanistic view this is a positive thing. From a Christian world view it is not a positive thing, but a thing of copmpromise.
I think that because of our geography alone, we are very ignorant as a nation of the ways of thinking in the world and shamefully also ignorant of the struggles, plight, social and economic conditions in the world.
The example of dishwashers that freddy gave was one that rang true to my understanding. I do believe that Europeans are more aware of even more conscienceous of environmental issues. Part of this I think is because you have had to be so.. the vast expanses of open land and resources that we have here are not the case in Central Europe. I remember my husband talking to me about waste here in the US and how it amazed him the waste that we have here even in something as simple as the packaging of products.. where in Germany for example manufacturers are much more conservative with their packagaing of products because they are required to gather and recycle it. I remember during the oil embargos of the 70's here, we were grumbling that gasoline might go to a dollar a gallon, and yet Europe had been at that time paying the equivalent of some $3.00 or more a gallon for years. Europeans would not have dreamed of driving the gas hog muscle cars that were so popular here in the 60s and 70s! It would have been viewed as obscenely wasteful. These kinds of differences exist even in agriculture where here in America we have ranches that are literally thousands and thousands of acres and our cows roam free...as opposed to germany which is small and people raise cows in stalls. The physical differences alone of America compared to many European nations requires Europeans to live differently.. use resources differently, and I think this causes Europeans to be more environmentally aware or consciencious than we are here in America. This is certainly something that is positive and even Christian to be good stewards of our resources and not wasteful and yes as a nation we would do well to accept a word to the wise as sufficient as my dad would have said.
Again, geography has played a part in our .. hmmm ... our whole persona as a nation in that we really apart from the need for exports do not have to be too neighborly or accepting of other nations if we dont want to because unlike Germany for example again... there is no one that can simple march across some invisable line in the ground and into our territory with tanks. It is beyond our comprehension at this point that any of us could go to work this morning and come home to find that our loved ones across the street are no longer free. So we are a nation that is often oblivious and totally consumed with our own little world and our own little lives. This is not a luxury that many europeans have and that has lead to your being a more tolerant and pluralistic society.
I dont know how or why Europe is more open to drugs, perverted sexual expression and profane language than we are in America, but I do know that they are...perhaps this is just a result of tolerance and pluralistic views of society in general.
But if we stop for a moment and take a look at those things in terms of Christianity, I see that these things have ultimately led to the compromise of spiritual standards as well. The Church of England is about as apostate as apostate can get for example.
Please know that I am not Europe bashing... America is well on her way to catching and perhaps rivaling you in this regard and in regard to issues of sexualtiy as well.
Right now in America, there is a struggle going on. We keep trying to convince ourselves that America is a "Christian Nation" when the truth is that America is not and has never been a Christian nation. We have only claimed GOd's name when it suited the agenda of the powers that be at the time. This nation for example required Biblical values in order for the documents of our foundation and independence from Europe to stand. But even the framers of our constitution were not in agreement on Who and what Christ is. Most of us here would not consider the views of many of them to be Christian... Many of them were diests, others were Free Masons. If we took time to read their private letters we would find that many were of the very same beliefs that we would call a JW a hertic for expressing. This errored thinking that we were a Christian Nation has led many down the road of trying to legislate Christianity and they are no different than Constantine who tried to marry the church to the government and ended up creating something that was anything but the church. The truth is that there will be no Theocracy... no Christian nation until Christ himself sets his foot on the Mt of Olives and establishes a 1000 year reign and there isnot supposed to be... clay and iron do not mix.... not in Europe and not in America. The church is supposed in exisit in the world but not be OF the world.
Our views as Christians of social and economic issues should be BIBLE based and irrespective of our differing cultures. Our citizenship is a heavenly one.
And from that perspective what Walt says is true...
There is NOTHING good (works or people) independant and apart from Yahweh.
The ONLY good that exisits in any of us is GOD that exisits in us and manifests HIS fruit- good works out of us.
So know the MUSLIM or the HINDU or the Wiccan or the whomever who is not born again is not capaable of producing good because the tree is not good. The good works that the unregenerate man does in the end... in the big picture scheme of things profits nothing... because the woman that he saved from rape is still ultimately going to die and face hell unless she comes to Christ...
So does the Muslim do nothing... of course not! It would be the greatest of evil to see a person being raped and do nothing when you could have done something... so what is the point?
The point is simply to understand that there is a difference between (a) what motivates the unregenrate person in the doing of "good" deeds and the born again person in whom GOD is working to manifest HIS will and want. and (b) there is a difference in the end of time value of the deed itself... only those works that were worked by GOD through men will stand the fire of judgment and will profit in the long run ... in eternity.
Why is it important to make these points?
Because understanding them leads us to understand what we are without GOD and why we need GOD in the first place. Understanding this ultimately leads to our either placing faith in self and having a humanistic view of the events of life and dealing with them from that humanistic perspective or placing ALL faith in GOD and repenting of our human error and surrendering ALL that we are and have and do to GOD... understanding these things helps us to die to self...Ultimately it leads to freedom because we no longer live but HE lives in us.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Jazzee
Advanced Member
Member # 6040
|
posted
Anyway, I am European and I just wanted to say that I can only agree on what Freddy posted.
--------------------
all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
Posts: 34 | From: Denmark | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Jazzee
Advanced Member
Member # 6040
|
posted
I know what it means ![[Wink]](wink.gif) Just wondered if Wparr did.
--------------------
all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
Posts: 34 | From: Denmark | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
|
posted
Jesus means we should have a concern for the ones in pain before us, in both social and spiritual needs.
The world would be a changed place if every Christian attended to the sorrows that are plain before him.
When you receive eternal life - God’s kind of life in you - God will give you the resources to love Him and other people as you should. You can’t do it apart from having His life in you.
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Jazzee
Advanced Member
Member # 6040
|
posted
Wparr have you ever read the story of the GOOD samaritan?
What do you think Jesus is trying to tell us?
--------------------
all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
Posts: 34 | From: Denmark | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Jazzee
Advanced Member
Member # 6040
|
posted
ok guess I finally found the right button.
I am from Scandinavia and have lived here all my life. I am married to an african american and I can only totally agree on what Freddy says.
--------------------
all things are possible for she who believes in the Lord
Posts: 34 | From: Denmark | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
It is strange that most Europeans believe Americans are niave when it comes to Europeans.
I accept that Europeans are a bit prejudiced towards Americans when it comes to knowledge of Europe, but that's because it's based on a lot of experience. Working for an American company here in London, I meet quite a few guys from the US, and even some who've lived here for a while still have some funny notions about Europe.
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
|
posted
It is strange that most Europeans believe Americans are niave when it comes to Europeans. I have lived for 7 years in Germany. (I' hatte un Deutschland siebon Jahren gewohnen). I had the pleasure to meet many unique people. The foundation of Jesus is Lord and a guiding way is no more different from here in the USA and Europe. It is one thing to be religious and another to follow and live for Jesus (although this concurs with the definition religion too). ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE ARE RELIGIOUS IN SOME WAY OR FASHION, but that does not mean they follow Jesus according to what Jesus has said.
Since I am a first American Born decedent, European traditions is a way of life, but as my children do grow up they tend to speak English more than French or Yiddisch or Ladino.
Soul can only be truly decerned by God almighty, but people can only decern if another person is displaying ethics becoming of a good person.
The Book of Proverbs, is what I call "WISDOM SET DOWN THRU THE AGES ORDAIN AND INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF"
Probably what am saying now might seem to be un kosher. When I had watched the movie "Polyana", I had learned that there is just as many happy text in the bible as there is warning text in the bible. BUT ALL THE TEXT IN THE BIBLE ARE INSPIRED AND UNIQUELY PLACED AND INERRANT BY GOD AND FOR GOD. POLYANA has taught me, that If I choose to see the evil in a person, I will find it and on the other hand IF I CHOOSE TO FIND THE GOOD IN A PERSON, I WILL FIND IT!!!!!!!
INTRISINCTLY, A PERSON WILL RETURN THE SAYING, THERE IS NO ONE WHO DOES GOOD, FOR ALL IS EVIL, BUT THAT IS THE UNREPENT AND UNRIGHTEOUS PERSON. ONCE WE HAVE CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT GOD'S MESSIAH JESUS IS THE SAVIOUR AND WILL SAVE US FROM BEING ETERNALLY SEPARATED FROM GOD AND HIS ABODE. THE BIBLE THROUGHOUT SAYS THOSE WHO DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL TRANSVERSE JERUSALEM TO FROM ON HIGH WORSHIP GOD ALMIGHTY.
I- Eduardo Grequi am persuaded that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and no one can come to the Father but thru the Messiahship of God"
Anyone, who has accepted Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour is my brother and sister, therefore I will fellowship. It will be up to God to sift out the wolves in sheep clothing. Abide therein those who choose to do so.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
quote:
freddy05
Wparr- If Europe is as dead spiritually as you seem to think. And if America is as spiritual as you seem to think...
America is spiritually dead also.....
There is a small remnant world wide still true to the Faith of Yeshua delivered to the saints...
so few in fact that when Yeshua returns He said "would He be able to find any Faith at all present on the earth".
humanism is the gospel of the day, man only needs more money to solve the problems of the world. ... (so man thinks)
The politicians worldwide say God "Yahweh" is not needed.
this is true in Europe and it is true in America
If every one in the world, had all they could eat and drink, all the designer clothes their hearts could desire , perfect health, a dream house and car, and money in excess and did not know the power of the new birth through the Blood of Yeshua this world would still be in turmoil.
because men and women without Yahweh are desparatly wicked,
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
What, everyone? You believe that all 250 million people here have forsaken God?
456 million if you count the whole EU! 50% bigger than the US! Over 700 million if you include non-EU and Russia!
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
What is it that I see wrong with Europe?
FORSAKING Yahweh their creator, isn't that enough?
What, everyone? You believe that all 250 million people here have forsaken God?
You must have had a busy 3 years here meeting everyone.
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
What is it that I see wrong with Europe?
FORSAKING Yahweh their creator, isn't that enough?
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
I'm NOT saying cut all social programs.
They are the DUTY of Governments - DUTY.
But that DOESN'T make them "good" from a Scripture perspective if they do what they are SUPPOSE to do.
Jeremiah 2:13
For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water.
Forsaking Yahweh is the FIRST evil in His eyes, and leads to other evils.
Many in America are hard to reach with the gospel, because they are "good" moral people, have a good job and house and such.
They are "self" dependant.
They don't see why they need God.
Yahweh calls that self reliance SIN
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Can't you SEE and UNDERSTAND that concept????
Yes I see and understand your concept. Do you see and understand the concept of providing everyone with health care, education, and basic necessities when I society is able? Can you see how that is a good thing?
Maybe we should just cut all social programs to $0. After all, if they aren´t attached the gospel then they are worthless. We should save our money and use it to send more puppet shows to tribal people in the amazon.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
|
posted
In regard to what is "good", I invite you all to check out my new website: http://christianityetc.org. It seeks to define what is "good" and to present various statements regarding "Christianity and other good topics". The focus of these articles is not on popular standards for goodness, but eternal ones. I am regularly adding more statements. I'm open for feedback and suggestions for the improvement of this site and its statements.
--------------------
Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
I lived in Scotland for a year, and Germany for 2.
Your guys (freddy and ahar) views of "good" are from an worldy now perspective rather than from a Scriptural eternal one.
By YOUR standards mormons are "good" people, but they are lost and facing eternal damnation.
There is NOTHING good (works or people) independant and apart from Yahweh.
Okay - so wparr has lived here. What is it about Europe that you so condemn?
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
From and Eternal perspective they are MEANINGLESS.
DON'T take what I'm saying as meaning Christians aren't to help people, but helping independant of Yahweh doesn't accomplish anything.
If you take a starving homeless person, and give them food and shelter - without the gospel.
You just have let another well adjusted person goto hell.
Do you say THAT is good?
Suffering is EVERYWHERE, in MANY MANY MANY MANY forms.
We CAN'T stop it, or end it.
But we CAN bring Y'shua into it.
How many Christians SUFFER because of their faith?
Scripture declares that it WILL happen.
Yahweh USES this suffering to show His glory.
Have you read Job??????
Getting drug addicts off of drugs, without getting them born-again does NOTHING.
But Yahweh, thru His children, can use the drug addiction as a MEANS to come to salvation.
Many times people have to come to the end of their rope before they will reach out and trust God.
THAT is what Yahweh wants most.
So ANY works independant of Him is MEANINGLESS.
Can't you SEE and UNDERSTAND that concept????
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
|
posted
Wparr- If Europe is as dead spiritualy as you seem to think. And if America is as spiritual as you seem to think...
Then I think its pretty sad that Europe with less money and "no morals" is able to do more for its poor than the US with its enlightened "spirituality" and "compassion".
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
There is NOTHING good (works or people) independant and apart from Yahweh.
So to clarify your view. If a Muslim man walks down the street and notices through a window that a child is about to be raped... the Muslim man goes in there, stops the rape from occurring, and subdues the criminal until police arrive...
A Mormon lives next door to a family that has had a hard life and is in a tough financial circumstance. A government program is cut and the family faces losing their health care before a new baby is to be born. The Mormon has
compassion and pays for the family´s health care until their situation turns around.
An Athiest helps a struggling old lady across the street.
Wparr according to your views, you don´t think the Muslim, Mormon, or Athiest have done good things. Am I understanding you correctly?
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
MOST (not all of course) of "christianity" within Europe is but an empty dead shell of religion.
And America is fast on their heels.
But America has a greater proportion of fasle gospel teachers operating than does Europe, but that's because Europr is dead enough that satan doesn't need to polute what's there.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
I lived in Scotland for a year, and Germany for 2.
Your guys (freddy and ahar) views of "good" are from an worldy now perspective rather than from a Scriptural eternal one.
By YOUR standards mormons are "good" people, but they are lost and facing eternal damnation.
There is NOTHING good (works or people) independant and apart from Yahweh.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by freddy05:
I´m not saying Europe is "better"... all I am saying is rather than making blanket statements about a region that has a bigger and just as diverse (if not more) than the USA is just plain silly.
Don't think that will stop anyone on here ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Most of the people on here who post comments about Europe:
a) Don't live here
b) Have probably only ever been here for a week or two on holiday
c) Take most of their opinions from a small select band of websites that reinforce the views that they currently hold
d) Are unlikely to be able to correctly place most of the countries of Europe on a map.
I feel sorry for people who make pronouncements regarding Europe and our allegiance with the anti-christ - they do so out of complete ignorance, and are unable to move beyond their own prejudices to find out for themselves what may be going on.
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
But since you like it so much, and seem to have the same values, why not go back and stay?
Ha ha! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I´m laughing cause when I wrote my original post, right as I clicked "post", I knew someone would respond with the old "If you don´t like America then get out" logic.
Maybe I wasn´t clear enough in the original post. What I read on these boards is "America good and blessed by God! Europe is Satan´s!"
My only point is that there are good things about Europe, yes even SUPERIOR things. Only an arrogant or ignorant person will refuse advice or fail to see the good.
I´m not saying Europe is "better"... all I am saying is rather than making blanket statements about a region that has a bigger and just as diverse (if not more) than the USA is just plain silly.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
|
posted
Europe is POST Christian. . ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
But since you like it so much, and seem to have the same values, why not go back and stay?
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
|
posted
I´ve seen posts on other threads that have made reference to "morally lost Europe" or the "evils of Europe" or "Do we want to end up like Europe?" etc...
I am not European. Well, I guess my great great great great grandparents were. I was born and raised in the USA.
For many years I shared many of the same prejudices of Euopre I am ashamed to admit.
Then I lived there for about 9 months.
A few observations: (from Western Europe and Scandinavia... eastern Europe is another whole world away)
Despite the more open sexuality, tolerance of drugs, and swearing...
I encountered less general poverty than in the US.
I encountered people that could afford dishwashers, large cars, big houses, but chose not to because of environmental impact or because of a "I don´t need it, so why buy it" attitude.
I encountered less kids being openly disrespectful to parents in public.
I encountered more people concerned with affairs in the developing world.
I encountered more people who viewed health care and education for all children as a right rather than a privilage.
I encountered more acceptance without strings attached than I do in the US. (and from what I saw, there were less of a popularity contest than in the US)
In the cities (probably much like the US) I encountered less racism and prejudice than in rural areas.
Europe has a very dark history, but among the younger generations (born after 1930s I would say) I noticed less nazi-ism, stalin-ism, racism, etc... than I notice extreme bigotry or racism in America.
In my experience, Europe has many "Family Values" to teach Americans. And yes, its possible to learn from Europe even if there are undesirable things in Europe.
And note, much of what I said are generalizations... but based on 9 months living among the people and culture, I feel I am qualified to make the observations.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
