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Topic: Christians should be against any involuntary taxes.
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Pio
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posted
I agree that involuntary taxes are something that should not exist (in the USA), because the founding Fathers gave us the ability in the Constituion to creat Tariffs. It is when we errode our soveirgnty <--sp? as a nation by NAFTA and other non-tariff agreements we then have to make up for the wealth leaving the government by taking it forcefully from ourselves in the form of taxes.
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I dont either think of taxes as being involuntary. I voluntarily pay my taxes because the Bible says render unto Caesar. I dont think it matters that Caesar is elected or if he is a Fidel Castro. GOD ultimately is the one who allows any government... even the bad cruel ones to be in the place of Governement and so whether we are bond slaves like the children of God in Egypt or Americans living in a Representative Republic or Brits living under a Queen, ours is not to refuse to render unto Caesar....... and when Caesar becomes too burdensome to bear to petition GOD to deliver us.
In this country we are unique because we do have the ability to elect those who govern us and we can chhose to vote for those who are opposed to more taxes, but when the taxes are legislated, the payment of them by Christians should be in our hearts and minds voluntary not involuntary because to feel that they are involuntary is to oppose GOD who has ordanined that we should live at this time under this government.
Our rising in opposition as Christians to our government should only be in cases where our government would have us do something that would be opposed to GOD... an example being Nebudchadnezzar's wanting God's people to worship his image.
Like I said early in this thread, I point is not that we as christians should not pay taxes because it is clear in the bible that we should pay our taxes. What I'm am talking about is that we as citizens of this nation are responsible for our government because they are to representing us. And it is our representitives that keep laws that allow for the use of force, deadly if neccessary, to put those in jail who do not want to volunteer there taxes. And if it is just one person who doesn't want to pay taxes, yet we coerce them through threat of force to pay, the taxes are no longer voluntary.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I dont either think of taxes as being involuntary. I voluntarily pay my taxes because the Bible says render unto Caesar. I dont think it matters that Caesar is elected or if he is a Fidel Castro. GOD ultimately is the one who allows any government... even the bad cruel ones to be in the place of Governement and so whether we are bond slaves like the children of God in Egypt or Americans living in a Representative Republic or Brits living under a Queen, ours is not to refuse to render unto Caesar....... and when Caesar becomes too burdensome to bear to petition GOD to deliver us.
In this country we are unique because we do have the ability to elect those who govern us and we can chhose to vote for those who are opposed to more taxes, but when the taxes are legislated, the payment of them by Christians should be in our hearts and minds voluntary not involuntary because to feel that they are involuntary is to oppose GOD who has ordanined that we should live at this time under this government.
Our rising in opposition as Christians to our government should only be in cases where our government would have us do something that would be opposed to GOD... an example being Nebudchadnezzar's wanting God's people to worship his image.
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WKUHilltopper
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
This sections been empty to long.
So in a democratic society where the people are responsible for the government. Wouldn't it be wrong for christians to not be actively protesting involuntary taxes (i.e. income, property....). Because all involuntary taxes are stealing, and stealing is wrong.
Taxes are part of the "Golden Rule". Whoever has the gold, rules.
It's only "theft" if a government declares it is.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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becauseHElives
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A few thoughts on the subject....
I do not endorse the man ( Aaron Russo )I do not know anything about his personal life or (the music used) but his message is truth!
view (Trailer 1)
view (Trailer 2)
view (CMN Interview)
@...
http://www.freedomtofascism.com/
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
here it is as basic as I can put it. As a christian, as well as a human, I believe it is wrong to extract property from another person through violence.
The Supreme Court doesn't agree with you. Try refusing the government your property when it demands it and and see how violent it gets...
My point exactly
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WKUHilltopper
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
here it is as basic as I can put it. As a christian, as well as a human, I believe it is wrong to extract property from another person through violence.
The Supreme Court doesn't agree with you. Try refusing the government your property when it demands it and and see how violent it gets...
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I don't believe in the social contract theory.
I didn't ask for the services given, and just because I exist does not mean I concent to them and I am under no obligation to pay for services when the terms of service was never agreed upon.
Whether you believe in it or not, it's true. You consent to the services by living in the US. Do you watch TV? Do you drive a car? Have you ever called the Police? Have you been to school? By undertaking these actions you implicitly agree to goods and services.
By walking or driving around at night you 'consume' the street lights - just because it's not like an apple that you ask for does not exclude it from being a good or service - in economic theory these are called 'public goods'. By watching TV you implicitly agree to the FCC as the regulating body, paid for out of taxes. By driving a car on public roads you implicitly agree to the Government maintaining them, therefore you pay taxes to cover this. By calling the Police, or going to school you implicitly agree to consuming these services and therefore pay taxes to pay for it. Even by breathing the air around you, you agree to regulations on clean air regulated by the EPA and to the funding of the armed forces which are there to keep you safe, both of which are funded from taxes.
Whether you like it or not, taxes are NOT theft. The terms of service are laid down in the laws and the US constitution - the people of the US agree to these every time there is an election. If enough people didn't like the laws on tax then they would vote for a candidate that would change it.
To be honest, I find the notion that taxes are theft pretty ridiculous, and there is certainly no biblical support for that view. In fact, in Matthew 17 vs24-27 Jesus pays a tax, and the Old testament is littered with times when people have paid taxes, for example 2Kings 23 vs 35.
Tell me, if all taxes were voluntary, what would the USA look like?
So your telling me that if I move into an area, knowing the mafia controls that area and they are going to provide "protection" for me at a weekly fee. And everyone knows that if I don't pay they will come with guns and mess my property up and maybe give me a good beating. But because I had fore knowledge of this, is it OK?
But my original statement is more reflected in this scenario:
You are a silent partner for a security agency. The partner who is running the business begins coercing through threat of violence all the persons that live in the area to pay up for this agency's services. Is that OK? You also know that if you want to pull your money out of the partnership he's going send his thugs after you too. Shouldn't you be actively trying to talk the other silent partners into ending this partnership to end this agency's activities.
Know that I am in no way advocating not paying you taxes and I haven't said that anywhere. What I am saying is that the practice of extracting taxes through coercion is wrong. And we are not silent partners, but active partners and should be actively convincing all the other partners in this nation to end this coercion.
I really don't know what america would look like. I know it's a scary thing that we would not have the default services that we enjoy now and the police protection that everyone can rely on. I do know that a lot of charities exist and I imagine that good hearted persons would be willing to donate their time to give additional protection and help when needed as many neighborhood watch programs due now. I also think that when the local, state and federal governments don't have monopolies on the services they provide, private individuals and businesses will rise up to provide those services on a free market basis.
I also know that there will never be no government because it is so scary to people. But I do think that we can convince people to see the way the government programs and laws that exist are funded and that it is not right. Therefore, hopefully people would stop voting for more programs that require more taxes and start voting in leaders and representatives that will not be pushing their pet programs but will be pushing to end government programs to bring it down to just protecting our inalienable rights of life, liberty and property, as well as some other services like roads. Maybe government would then cost so little we could find some other way to fund it.
How this all falls into our christianity is that we should follow the existing laws. It says it all over the place in the bible, just like the examples placed into this thread. But if we have the ability to end an injustice shouldn't we? And I believe that our current tax systems are an injustice, therefore I am trying to get people to think the same way as I do. Who knows, mabey I'm wrong and it is OK for the majority to rule the individual for some greater good of the society. But I believe that any use of force or fraud to come to any gain is wrong, whether by an individual or a group that, even if that group or individual is an estabished authority.
This is probable how I should have started this thread.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I don't believe in the social contract theory.
I didn't ask for the services given, and just because I exist does not mean I concent to them and I am under no obligation to pay for services when the terms of service was never agreed upon.
Whether you believe in it or not, it's true. You consent to the services by living in the US. Do you watch TV? Do you drive a car? Have you ever called the Police? Have you been to school? By undertaking these actions you implicitly agree to goods and services.
By walking or driving around at night you 'consume' the street lights - just because it's not like an apple that you ask for does not exclude it from being a good or service - in economic theory these are called 'public goods'. By watching TV you implicitly agree to the FCC as the regulating body, paid for out of taxes. By driving a car on public roads you implicitly agree to the Government maintaining them, therefore you pay taxes to cover this. By calling the Police, or going to school you implicitly agree to consuming these services and therefore pay taxes to pay for it. Even by breathing the air around you, you agree to regulations on clean air regulated by the EPA and to the funding of the armed forces which are there to keep you safe, both of which are funded from taxes.
Whether you like it or not, taxes are NOT theft. The terms of service are laid down in the laws and the US constitution - the people of the US agree to these every time there is an election. If enough people didn't like the laws on tax then they would vote for a candidate that would change it.
To be honest, I find the notion that taxes are theft pretty ridiculous, and there is certainly no biblical support for that view. In fact, in Matthew 17 vs24-27 Jesus pays a tax, and the Old testament is littered with times when people have paid taxes, for example 2Kings 23 vs 35.
Tell me, if all taxes were voluntary, what would the USA look like?
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by NLP:
I don’t liketh the tax maneth! ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif) , but I pay him anyway ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
BrianGrass,
Are you talking more specifically about the IRS? If this is more who you are referring to you are 100% correct, they are THIEVES! I’ve seen what they did to my parents…goes way beyond even usury. ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
I'm really talking about any income taxes. Property taxes are voluntary in that you never really own you property, but are leasing exclusive rights to do whatever any local municipality dictates is ok to do with that property and that you can transfer those rights to another. The fact that you are taxed on the property you own and the governing body and take it from you for none payment tells you that. I mean if you truly owned you own property than it in itself would be soverein and we couldn't have that could we.
Sales and consumption taxes are voluntary to the purchaser or consumer, but not the person doing the selling. If they didn't charge the tax the government would revoke there right to do business and if they continued to sell their goods, the men with guns would come along to end it.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
here it is as basic as I can put it. As a christian, as well as a human, I believe it is wrong to extract property from another person through violence.
You're going to have to explain that a bit more - how do you link taxes to extracting property through violence? Just be
The fruits of one's labor is the most basic definition of property. In this society, money is the fruit of your labor. Taxes take that money away. It is taken by violence because if you refuse to pay, men with guns will come to your house and take you away and if you resist, they will use lethal force against you if they deem it neccessary.
But by the very fact of living in the US you agree to letting the Government take some of your money in taxes. If you do not agree, either move to a country whose policies that you agree with or ask the Government to change the rules.
It is like any other transaction - by paying taxes you are contributing to the goods and services that you receive by living in that country. Theft is taking without permission - you have given your permission so it is not theft.
I don't believe in the social contract theory.
I didn't ask for the services given, and just because I exist does not mean I concent to them and I am under no obligation to pay for services when the terms of service was never agreed upon. The argument that I can leave if I don't like it holds no water. I have just as much right to lease and own property and reside on that property as the next man and no one has the right force services on me because a dictator or a majority decide they are best for the greater good whether or not I was there before them or after.
Its like the guy on the street corner who washes your window when you pull up to the stop light and puts his hand out afterwards. Only when its Uncle Sam he's got a gun in in the other hand and he will shoot you if you try to pull away without paying up. Is it OK because I didnt' choose another route even though I new this guy would be there and I new what he would do. I mean at least Uncle Sam asks for the least amount of money than the other corners in town, I guess that makes it OK
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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NLP
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posted
I don’t liketh the tax maneth! , but I pay him anyway
BrianGrass,
Are you talking more specifically about the IRS? If this is more who you are referring to you are 100% correct, they are THIEVES! I’ve seen what they did to my parents…goes way beyond even usury.
Posts: 45 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2006
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Wouldn't it be wrong for christians to not be actively protesting involuntary taxes (i.e. income, property....). Because all involuntary taxes are stealing, and stealing is wrong.
What is a Born-Again follower of Jesus function and calling in society?
Matthew 28:19-20
(19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Acts 1:8
but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
A Christian's "purpose" is to impact individual's hearts, not society's behavior.
As hearts are changed THEN behavior will change.
But we are part of this society.
If we were talking about a church community, where the church was taking the donations, by force if neccessary and you were part of this church. You would be very much against this practice. (I hope)
Is it then because the nation we are a part of is not a christian organization or because it is on a much larger scale, it is OK for us to allow this sort of coersion to take place.
But at least I could quit going to the above mentioned church, however the united states is country where I reside.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
here it is as basic as I can put it. As a christian, as well as a human, I believe it is wrong to extract property from another person through violence.
You're going to have to explain that a bit more - how do you link taxes to extracting property through violence?
The fruits of one's labor is the most basic definition of property. In this society, money is the fruit of your labor. Taxes take that money away. It is taken by violence because if you refuse to pay, men with guns will come to your house and take you away and if you resist, they will use lethal force against you if they deem it neccessary.
But by the very fact of living in the US you agree to letting the Government take some of your money in taxes. If you do not agree, either move to a country whose policies that you agree with or ask the Government to change the rules.
It is like any other transaction - by paying taxes you are contributing to the goods and services that you receive by living in that country. Theft is taking without permission - you have given your permission so it is not theft.
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
here it is as basic as I can put it. As a christian, as well as a human, I believe it is wrong to extract property from another person through violence.
You're going to have to explain that a bit more - how do you link taxes to extracting property through violence?
The fruits of one's labor is the most basic definition of property. In this society, money is the fruit of your labor. Taxes take that money away. It is taken by violence because if you refuse to pay, men with guns will come to your house and take you away and if you resist, they will use lethal force against you if they deem it neccessary.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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wparr
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Wouldn't it be wrong for christians to not be actively protesting involuntary taxes (i.e. income, property....). Because all involuntary taxes are stealing, and stealing is wrong.
What is a Born-Again follower of Jesus function and calling in society?
Matthew 28:19-20
(19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Acts 1:8
but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
A Christian's "purpose" is to impact individual's hearts, not society's behavior.
As hearts are changed THEN behavior will change.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
here it is as basic as I can put it. As a christian, as well as a human, I believe it is wrong to extract property from another person through violence.
You're going to have to explain that a bit more - how do you link taxes to extracting property through violence?
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
here it is as basic as I can put it. As a christian, as well as a human, I believe it is wrong to extract property from another person through violence.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
Without taxes, how is the government supposed to make money?
Where else are they going to pull it out from???
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I think you both are missing the point. We live in the USA, ... <snip>
With that said I am not saying we should not obey our laws and not pay taxes, but saying as the individuals that are responsible for the government, we should be working to end the involuntary theft (taxes) that we, who can elect officials and vote for laws and propositions, have the authority to change as citizens.
Well, I live in the UK but that's by the by.
I haven't missed the point - I don't think that taxes are involuntary theft. It's not theft if what is taken is by agreement. You live in the US, and by living as a citizen in the US you automatically agree to live by the laws of that country. If you don't agree with the laws then you can either ask the lawmakers to change the law or live somewhere else. Until the law is changed, then it is not theft.
Another example is court ordered reposession of goods. If you owe someone some money (e.g. unpaided traffic fines), the courts can order the 'repo man' (we call them bailiffs) to come and take your stuff to cover the debt - this is involuntary (i.e. you don't want them to take it) but it's not theft.
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Cheers
Andy
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
I think you both are missing the point. We live in the USA, a representative republic, that means that we elect our representitives and leaders by voting. These representatives and leaders are supposed to be responsible to us and we are resposible for the representitives and leaders we elect. Also we vote on laws and propositions that we are responsible for. Therefore every individual is responsible for the government that is in place.
With that said I am not saying we should not obey our laws and not pay taxes, but saying as the individuals that are responsible for the government, we should be working to end the involuntary theft (taxes) that we, who can elect officials and vote for laws and propositions, have the authority to change as citizens.
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
But this is a government by the people not an individual. Therefore by not opposing the theft, we are contributing to it. In the case of Caesar, he was the only one responsible for the robbery.
Taxes are not theft.
They are part of the social contract that we have with the country that we live in - we pay taxes as we live here, and in return the state provides services for the state (military, health, government, social care etc)
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Cheers
Andy
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Caretaker
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Romans 13:
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5: Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6: For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7: Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
This sections been empty to long.
So in a democratic society where the people are responsible for the government. Wouldn't it be wrong for christians to not be actively protesting involuntary taxes (i.e. income, property....). Because all involuntary taxes are stealing, and stealing is wrong.
Er, no. Taxes are taxes, however you might want to describe it.
Render unto Caesar .....
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
But this is a government by the people not an individual. Therefore by not opposing the theft, we are contributing to it. In the case of Caesar, he was the only one responsible for the robbery.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
This sections been empty to long.
So in a democratic society where the people are responsible for the government. Wouldn't it be wrong for christians to not be actively protesting involuntary taxes (i.e. income, property....). Because all involuntary taxes are stealing, and stealing is wrong.
Er, no. Taxes are taxes, however you might want to describe it.
Render unto Caesar .....
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
Yeah, you know I never thought about that... you might have a point.
But then again, the government got to get it's money from somewhere, yo! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
This sections been empty to long.
So in a democratic society where the people are responsible for the government. Wouldn't it be wrong for christians to not be actively protesting involuntary taxes (i.e. income, property....). Because all involuntary taxes are stealing, and stealing is wrong.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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