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Topic: ===> PETITION TO CONGRESS TO "BAN GAY MARRIAGE"
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redbankrick
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^^^The majority of minorities do NOT support so called gay weddings;(& one can spectulate that if they legalize the many Mexican illegals that their Catholic teachings would make them against gay nups)--- it is also a high irritant especially to many blacks as efforts are made to equate it to BLACK CIVIL RIGHTS:
The Rev. Jesse Jackson, with Dr. King when he was shot also has said homosexual rights are NOT the same as civil rights.
---"Gays were NEVER called three-fifths human in the Constitution....",the Rev. Jackson has said.
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Everybody’s Doing It (Jeremiah 5:25-31)
The universality of sinning is one of the great facts revealed in God’s Book. Unless we see this, we will never understand the need for the Cross of Christ. If it is possible for there to be sin but no sinning, then the Atonement is unnecessary. The terrible truth that the man of sin is born from the bosom of sanctification is one that is always ignored outside God’s Book. The sin of a heathen nation never comes anywhere near the sin of what we call a Christian nation.
(a) The Propagation of Super-sinners (5:26-27)
Whenever God talks about sin, He always makes its setting His own people. “For among My people are found wicked men.” Jeremiah is talking on the line that they, as the people of God, have fostered super-sinners, the like of which have not been seen on the earth before. To-day there are books known and revered by many which are a cultured snare to get Christians away from the one great standing in Christ Jesus. Sin, blasphemy and perditious acts are only possible in a community God has blessed. I am either producing fruit to the glory of God, or I am turning myself into a son or daughter of perdition. Judas and John are both productions of the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Chambers, O. (1999, c1936). Notes on Jeremiah (electronic ed.). London: Oswald Chambers Publication Association, Ltd.
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The issue of homosexual behavior has had a lot of publicity of late. Homosexuals say that the slaves have been freed and women have been liberated, so gay rights are long overdue. Society does seem to be moving in that direction. Many homosexuals are "coming out" and openly declaring their homosexuality. In many parts of the western world, homosexual couples receive the same recognition as heterosexual couples with regard to social security benefits. Some church leaders are giving their blessing to homosexual relationships, homosexual church members and even homosexual ministers.
Many homosexuals' claim that...
They are made that way.
Homosexuality is of no harm to the participants or to anyone else.
If it feels right to those involved, it is nobody else's business.
Homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships are equally valid. (Some even claim that the Bible condones homosexual relationships.)
Made that way?
Since other groups who have been discriminated against (such as women, blacks and the disabled) have been given equal opportunity, homosexuals claim that they, too, should be liberated. However, as one Christian expert has said...
"Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does."1
In contrast, homosexuals claim that scientific studies have shown that there is a biological basis for homosexuality.
Three main studies are cited by "gay rights" activists in support of their argument2—Hamer's X-chromosome research,3 LeVay's study of the hypothalamus,4 and Bailey and Pillard's study of identical twins who were homosexuals.5
In all three cases, the researchers had a vested interest in obtaining a certain outcome because they were homosexuals themselves. More importantly, their studies did not stand up to scientific scrutiny by other researchers. Also, "the media typically do not explain the methodological flaws in these studies, and they typically oversimplify the results".6 There is no reliable evidence to date that homosexual behavior is determined by a person's genes.
To the extent that biological or social factors may contribute to a person's bent toward homosexual behavior, this does not excuse it. Some people have a strong bent towards stealing or abuse of alcohol, but they still choose to engage or not engage in this behavior—the law rightly holds them accountable.
The final report of the Baptist Union of Western Australia (BUWA) Task Force on Human Sexuality states 'that a person becomes a homosexual ultimately by choosing to be involved in same-sex activity... This is in contrast to innate characteristics such as gender and ethnicity.'7 The report affirms that 'the Bible is clear that sin involves choice, and it unequivocally condemns homosexual behavior as sin'.7
The foundational teaching on marriage and sexual issues is found in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. When Jesus was questioned about marriage, He referred to these 2 chapters (Matthew 19:1-12; Mark 10:1-12). Genesis teaches us that 'male and female He created them' (Genesis 1:27). We were created to a plan—male and female complementing each other. That is, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, nor Madam and Eve.
Genesis also teaches that God instituted and designed marriage between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:18-25). There are a number of reasons why He did so.
The complementary structure of the male and female anatomy is obviously designed for the normal husband-wife relationships. Clearly, design in human biology supports heterosexuality and contradicts homosexuality.
The combination of male and female enables man (and the animals) to produce and nurture offspring as commanded in Genesis 1:28—'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth'. This command is repeated to Noah after the Flood (Genesis 8:15-17). But procreation is not the only reason God made humans as sexual beings. The BUWA report affirms 'that sexual intimacy between husband and wife is good, and is intended by God for bonding, pleasure and procreation.'7
Thirdly, God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit. Woman was to be the helper that man needed (Genesis 2:18). However, the woman's role as the helpmate is certainly not an inferior one. The enterprising God-fearing woman in Proverbs 31:10-31 is an inspiring role model.
No harm?
Andrew Lansdown points out that 'homosexual activity is notoriously disease-prone. In addition to diseases associated with heterosexual promiscuity, homosexual actions facilitate the transmission of anal herpes, hepatitis B, intestinal parasites, Kaposi's Sarcoma and AIDS.'1 Research on the life expectancy of a group of homosexual men in Canada in the early 1990s indicated that they could expect 8-21 years less lifespan than other men.8
Effect on others
Secular psychologists assure us that 'children raised in lesbian and gay households are similar to children raised in heterosexual households on characteristics such as intelligence, development, moral judgments, self-concepts, social competence and gender identity'.6 The humanists have, however, forgotten one important ingredient.
'Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it' (Proverbs 22:6).
You cannot faithfully teach God's Word to your children while living a lifestyle specifically condemned by God's Word. All Christians are sinners forgiven by God's grace, but living in a homosexual relationship constitutes habitual, unrepented sin.
Nobody else's business?
Gay activists claim that homosexual activity is nobody's business other than those involved in the relationship. However, this is not true. God, our Designer and Creator, has authority over all aspects of our lives. He makes the rules, and He quite specifically forbids homosexual behavior.
'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination' (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).
Disobedience of such a clear command indicates rejection of God's authority.
Some people argue that the Old Testament law (including Leviticus 18 and 20) was superseded with the coming of Christ. However, we should at least consider as binding those aspects of the law that are renewed in the New Testament. The teaching of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 was certainly reaffirmed in the New Testament.
Equally valid?
Some people claim that homosexual behavior was only condemned in the Bible because it was associated with idolatry (e.g. 1 Kings 14:24). However, it is clearly condemned apart from idolatry as well (e.g. Leviticus 18:22). It is described in Scripture as an unnatural, immoral perversion.
'For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another...' (Romans 1:26-27).
The Greek word arsenokoitai used in 1 Timothy 1:10 literally means 'men who sleep with men'. It is the same Greek word used for 'homosexual offender' in 1 Corinthians 6:9, variously translated as 'abusers of themselves with mankind' (KJV), homosexuals (NASB) or homosexual offender (NIV).
Some people claim that the sin involved in Sodom was rejecting hospitality customs or selfishness rather than homosexual behaviour. Certainly, the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great and their reported sin was grievous to God (Genesis 18:20). God sent angels to Sodom and...
'Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sex with them”' (Genesis 19:4-5).
"While it is true that the Hebrew word yadha does not necessarily mean 'to have sex with,' nonetheless in the context of Sodom and Gommorah, it clearly had this meaning. ...It means 'to know sexually' in this very chapter when Lot refers to his two daughters not having 'known' a man (19:8)."9 You would not offer virgins to appease a mob if their sin was lack of hospitality, but only if their desire was sexual.
Although Ezekiel 16:49 condemns Sodom for its selfishness with regard to poverty etc., this does not contradict its condemnation for homosexual practices. "The very next verse of Ezekiel (v. 50) calls their sin an "abomination". This is the same Hebrew word used to describe homosexual sins in Leviticus 18:22."10
It is also used in Scripture to describe such things like the practice of offering children to Moloch, but never such things as mere selfishness or lack of hospitality. Even in legal parlance, the word used to refer to one aspect of homosexual practice is 'sodomy'.
Another argument is that Jonathon and David were homosexuals as 'Jonathan “loved” David (1 Sam. 18:3), that Jonathan stripped in David's presence (18:4), [and] that they kissed each other (20:41)'.11
However, 'David's “love” for Jonathan was not sexual (erotic) but a friendship (philic) love. And Jonathan did not strip himself of all his clothes, but only of his armor and royal robe (1 Sam. 18:4).'12 Also, a kiss was a normal greeting in that day, such as when Judas kissed Jesus. In several cultures today, men normally greet each other with a kiss, too. Further, David's love for his wives, especially Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11), clearly reveals his heterosexual orientation.
Isaiah 56:3 states that eunuchs will not be excluded from God's presence ('my temple'), but practising homosexuals are not eunuchs. Eunuchs have no sexual relations at all.
Other scriptural arguments for homosexuality can similarly be easily refuted. It is clear that heterosexual marriage is the only form of marriage sanctioned in the Bible and that homosexual practice is always condemned.
Punishment
The Bible not only describes homosexual behavior as detestable, but it also calls for the punishment of those involved (Leviticus 20:13). Their unrepentant attitude caused God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25).
Just as homosexual conduct has been punished in the past, so it will also be punished by God in the future.
"...Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
Hope
However, there is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.
'Liberal' churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of 'love'. They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, 'because they can't help it'. They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.
Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the 'liberals' tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.13
Conclusion
As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude. If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority, and we can make our own rules. However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so. God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis.
More on-line information on this topic
What about gays needs to change? Answer
It may not be what you think.
What does the Bible say about same sex marriages? Answer
Can a gay or lesbian person go to heaven? Answer
What should be the attitude of the church toward homosexuals and homosexuality? Answer
Read stories from those who have struggled with homosexuality - GO
References and notes
Lansdown, A., The 'Rights' of Homosexuals, Life News, p. 1, February 1995.
Randall, D.A., Bill Loader on Homosexuality, Life News, p. 4, September 1996.
Hamer, D.H. et.al., A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation, Science 261(5119):321–327, 1993.
Levay, S., The Sexual Brain, MIT Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA, 1993 (as quoted in ref. 6, pp. 367, 665).
Bailey, J.M. and Pillard, R.C., A genetic study of male sexual orientation, General Psychiatry 48(12):1089–1096, 1991.
Matlin, M.W., Psychology, 3rd ed., Harcourt Brace College Publishers, Fort Worth, Texas, USA, p. 366, 1999.
Excerpts from the Baptist Union of WA document on human sexuality, Life News, October 1997. (Final Report of the Task Force on Human Sexuality, Baptist Union of Western Australia, July 1997).
Hogg, RS, et al., Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay men. International Journal of Epidemiology 26(3):657–61, 1997.
Geisler, N.L., Christian Ethics, Michigan, USA, Baker Books, p. 261, 1989.
Ref. 9, p. 262.
Ref. 9, p. 259.
Ref. 9, p. 265.
See, for example, the testimonies of people rescued from homosexual sin at www.exodus-international.org/testimonials_left_homosexuality.shtml, 28 October 2003.
Author: Ann Lamont , Answers in Genesis.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
That's ironic - looking back at my post to check spelling etc, the advert at the top of this page is for for their collection of gay and lesbian wedding rings.
It is not ironic. The ads come from Google and are based on the subject of the page. The subject of this thread happens to be about Gay marriage.
I can not control all the ads that come in but I can block some of them.
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quote:
Originally posted by giel:
what did gay people ever do to you to be hated so much. Oke they are unnatural but the fact is they exist and everything has his place in the creation of god.
I know for one, that I don't hate gay people. It is a sin just like if you are a murder, thief, adulter, etc....
If I did not care about gay people I would never say a word and just let them walk blindly in to hell, but I don't want to see anyone go to hell. Sin is sin and will drag you to hell if you don't come to know Jesus Christ, repent of your sin and ask Him to save you.
Homosexuals argue that they did not make a conscious decision to be that way, so it must be natural. They are born that way—just as all of us are born with a sin nature and sinful desires (Ephesians 2:1– ). Tell them that it is natural for them, and for all of us, to be tempted to do things that God says are wrong. In the same way, pedophiles and adulterers (alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.) don’t make a conscious decision to "choose" that self-destructive lifestyle, they simply give in to their sinful desires. However, although sin is natural for unbelievers, that doesn’t mean God wants them to remain that way. God can set them free from their sinful nature (Romans 7:23–8:2), give them new desires (Ephesians 4:22–24), and help them withstand temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13).
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BrianGrass1234
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I wasn't saying that any sexual act that would not cause procreation was a sin. I was trying to say that you really can't define it as wrong out side of the Bible and that person might argue a homosexual act is a sin in that naturally sex is for procreation (although most times that not why people are doing it) and a homosexual act could not result in procreation. So than it would be unnatural. I also know that there are many animals that have homosexual sex and that the argument in gay sex being unnatural is a weak arguement. Therefore, out side of the Bible and other religious writings, you can't show that there is anything wrong with homosexual acts between consenting adults.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Room DZ-015
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
To Room DZ,
Outside of what God commands in the Bible, or what some other religious writings say, there is nothing differant than two persons of the same sex having a sexual incounter than those of the opposite sex other than one can procreate and the other cannot. You need to decide on your own if you are to obey Gods word or not.
What if the heterosexual couple are using contraception? Your answer suggests to me that any sexual act not intended for procreation is sinful in itself, which is revealing.
Posts: 6 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2006
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Eduardo Grequi
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It is quite interesting to hear people say or write, "DO NOT QUOTE THE BIBLE!" However, the Bible is the standard by which I live, because it is the standard for me I will quote it. Sorry Charlie!! The Bible says it is wrong, then it is wrong!! ANY CHRISTIAN- not willing to make the bible their center counselling piece for their behaviour, has questionable alliances!
I will tell you this, when I was a child I was sold by my father to his debtor for whatever sex crazed thing this man wanted to do. He did acts that were unmentionable. I was 8 years old at the time! for 8 years I have lived as a sex toy with the event that it must have been okay, until I read the BIBLE,- I THEREFORE was at war with the events of my life! NO ONE ON THIS EARTH HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL ME OTHERWISE! Homosexuality is a sin! ANd in the olden days you would had been shot! And in some countries today, beheaded!
I had to put charges against my father and this individual, and GUESS WHAT I WON! The pervert had to go to jail. WISH THEY WOULD BRAND HIS FORHEAD, GAY CHILD MOLESTER!
Whether a person decideds for him or herself to be a homosexual is between God, the two people.
It is quite alarming that a homosexual individual will prey on children for their needs much quicker than a heterosexual individual.
As for me, Jesus the Christ is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, no man comes to the Father except by me!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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J Stuart
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quote:
It scares me to death that you think the government should have any business protecting us from ourselves. The government has no right to prohibit any thing I do to myself or any dangerous position I put myself into. The government should only be in the business of protecting us from others, us from the government and us from other nations. One example would be a large group denying a small group form doing any action that hurts no one else but themselves and is consentual amoung adults. People should be responsible for themselves and if there recklessness in actions hurt others than it is a civil or criminal case to atone for the actions. Government should not be outlawing things to protect us from things that might happen.
Yes, yes, we've all heard the slippery slope argument; and to an extent you're right... TO AN EXTENT.
But lets weigh the gains from the losses: who is harmed by an ammendment against gay marriage? No one; the "gay community" might kick up a fuss, but the fact remains that they haven't lost anything but their right to a meaningless piece of paper (and trust me, a marriage license between two people of the same sex would be meaningless in the eyes of God).
What have we gained? We've strengthened the right and moral institution of holy matrimony, and we've potentially nudged many thousands of gays away from the path to hell. And I'm not being dramatic or preaching fire and brimstone, but it's right there in plain english in the Bible: people who live in homosexual sin WILL go to hell. If we can just keep them from legal marriage we might be able to push them further from that dark road.
I don't think a ban on gay marriage would in any way constitute any kind of government "intrusion" or "oppression." THATS being dramatic.
And remember that in our hearts no person knows what its like to suffer the oppression of the state more than a Christian. Who was it being fed to the lions in the Colosseum? Was it homosexuals? No! It was Christians being condemned by sinful, homosexual roman emperors like Nero and Caligula.
And let us not forget the ultimate act of oppression and violence by the romans against Jesus Christ.
Trust me, a true Christian knows about persecution.
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Don't the sun look angry through the trees
Don't the trees look like crucified thieves
Don't you feel like Desperados under the eaves
Heaven help the one who leaves
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by Room DZ-015:
I would like to hear one good reason why homosexuality is a sin. One good reason. Do not quote the bible at me; just explain what makes a sexual act between two people with the same genitals more inherently "sinful" than a sexual act between people with different genitals.
This is one of things that I have struggled with. I can construct a purely logical argument for all of God's other rules to see why he asks us to do these things. Homosexuality is the one that I have, as yet, failed to do. I cannot go further with this than a theological reason - that God has told us it is a sin, that a man and a woman are the designed way and I have to accept it.
I'm not saying it's not possible at all, I'm sure someone cleverer than I am has come up with a cunning argument. Maybe someone else has something?
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Andy
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BrianGrass1234
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To Room DZ,
Outside of what God commands in the Bible, or what some other religious writings say, there is nothing differant than two persons of the same sex having a sexual incounter than those of the opposite sex other than one can procreate and the other cannot. You need to decide on your own if you are to obey Gods word or not.
To J Stuart,
It scares me to death that you think the government should have any business protecting us from ourselves. The government has no right to prohibit any thing I do to myself or any dangerous position I put myself into. The government should only be in the business of protecting us from others, us from the government and us from other nations. One example would be a large group denying a small group form doing any action that hurts no one else but themselves and is consentual amoung adults. People should be responsible for themselves and if there recklessness in actions hurt others than it is a civil or criminal case to atone for the actions. Government should not be outlawing things to protect us from things that might happen.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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J Stuart
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quote:
I would like to hear one good reason why homosexuality is a sin. One good reason. Do not quote the bible at me; just explain what makes a sexual act between two people with the same genitals more inherently "sinful" than a sexual act between people with different genitals.
Well, I could quote some of the passages of the Bible that CLEARLY explain why homosexuality is a sin; such as Romans 10:15 or the entire last half of Jeremiah 36
But since you requested nonBiblical explainations I can give you the simplest: God and the Lord Jesus Christ (PBUH) created man in a certain way. A perfect design for God's intentions, and one of those intentions was for a man and woman to wed in Holy matrimony (as is explained in the Bible).
For a man to marry another man would be like to put foil in your microwave even while the instructions clearly tell you not to; but in this case its not just a fire hazard, but a damnation hazard!
The government's job is to protect its citizens, and that should very logically extend to protecting its citizens from themselves and the harm they could cause to their eternal souls.
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Don't the sun look angry through the trees
Don't the trees look like crucified thieves
Don't you feel like Desperados under the eaves
Heaven help the one who leaves
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Room DZ-015
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I would like to hear one good reason why homosexuality is a sin. One good reason. Do not quote the bible at me; just explain what makes a sexual act between two people with the same genitals more inherently "sinful" than a sexual act between people with different genitals.
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BrianGrass1234
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If a married couple is to have a certain bundle of rights for their partnership as a co-habitating unit, than any persons who enter into a similar agreement of a life long co-habitation partnership should recieve equal rights. This should include those of opposite sex, same sex and multiple partners. The government should not be involved with marriage in the first place and you should not get any special bundle of rights just because your a spouse. But if we are going to give these special rights to some, we have an ethical obligation to give them equally to all.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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That's ironic - looking back at my post to check spelling etc, the advert at the top of this page is for love and pride for their collection of gay and lesbian wedding rings.
[ June 24, 2006, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: David ]
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
God does not create a person with homosexual desires. A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for them to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality.
I think that this is where we need to be very careful when talking to non-christians about this issue, as the language that we use is not always understood. Man was not 'created with homosexual desires', with creation being in the Genesis sense, but not in the sense of being born. When we say that a person becomes a homosexual because of choice, this is not using the sense of being a homosexual that the majority of the population use it. 'Being' gay is not a sin, but a homosexual intention, thought or act is. I think this is where we as christians are unable to get over the message of 'lover the sinner, not the sin'.
quote:
Originally posted by David:
As Christians, we are to seek to share the love of God and salvation through Christ with homosexuals. We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle.
www.gotquestions.org
This is true, but I see little distinction between a 'civil partnership' (for more details see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4497348.stm) and a civil wedding. Both are not undertaken in the eyes of God, so how can god approve of one and not the other? Should we ban people having a civil wedding?
I do not agree with same sex marriage, as marriage is a religious concept and the two are diametrically opposed. But if we allow 'civil weddings', that is wedding ceremonies that have nothing to do with God, then how can we oppose 'civil partnerships' as they are also legal civil matters and not related to the church or Christianity. We are not approving of the life they have chosen, simply extending the legal and other protections available to people married in a civil wedding.
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Cheers
Andy
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giel
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what did gay people ever do to you to be hated so much. Oke they are unnatural but the fact is they exist and everything has his place in the creation of god.
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KnowHim
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posted
The Bible clearly and consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). God does not create a person with homosexual desires. A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for them to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality.
We also have to remember that homosexuality is just as forgivable a sin as all other sins. God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God’s love and desire to save extends to homosexuals (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17)
To give sanction to homosexual marriage would be to give approval to that lifestyle, which the Bible clearly and consistently condemns as sinful. I believe that Christians should stand firmly against the idea of gay marriage. Marriage is ordained by God to be between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:21-24; Matthew 19:4-6). Homosexual marriage is a perversion of the institution of marriage and an offense to the God who created marriage. God forbids and condemns homosexuality, so He clearly is opposed to homosexual marriage. As Christians, we are to seek to share the love of God and salvation through Christ with homosexuals. We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle.
www.gotquestions.org
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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Looks like he's been booted out from the forum, which I think is a shame as I've always found it better to try and discuss things with people - if you're civil with them, they generally are civil back. Stopping talking completely with someone generally doesn't work, but I'm not a mod here so I carry on.
I'll run through with some comments on his ironic points for completeness sake:
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
Actually, I agree completely, for the following reasons.
1.Homosexuality is not natural, much like oculur defects (needing glasses/contacts/lasik), polyester, and birth control.
I seem to remember several studies showing that there probably is a genetic component to being gay. However, this area is still being looked at so no real conclusions yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
2. Heterosexual marriages are valid becasue they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs more children.
Interesting - can't remember seeing that in the bible. Your words, not mine.
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
I don't think the biblical argument goes into that either. Ask Dick Cheney ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if Gay marriage is allowed, since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.
Don't think that this was ever an argument used by Christians
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.
Christianity doesn not treat women as property, and does not forbid divorce.
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.
I do agree with this point however - the 'establishment' have not always been great at protecing minorities - christianity does not teach pursecution of any group though.
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire counrty. That's why we have only one religion in America.
Don't know about the US - I live in the UK and our political process is strictly secular. If you don't believe this, you don't know anything about our government and how our media approach politicians who profess a religious belief
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that seeing married tall people will make you tall.
Never seen a christian argue that
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
I thought people already marry their pets in the US - I'm sure it was on Jerry Springer once.
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
10. Children can never suceed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.
Having grown up in both a dual and single parent household, my experience is that a two parent, make and female household is better than a single parent household. A list of studies as long as your arm have been conducted in the UK
that show that children growing up in single parent households are more likely to do badly at school, commit crime and generally have a worse future life than those from two parent households.
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer lifespans.
This one I don't agree with - changing patterns of relationships have changed society for the worse. The breakdown of the family unit had caused a myriad of problems that we don't really have any answers to as yet
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a "seperate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Seperate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as seperate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
Civil partnerships are seperate but equal under English law - there is nothing you can legally do if you are married that you can't do with a civil partnership. Comparing this to the appalling racial segregation in the Southern US states in the 1950s is to belittle everything that the civil rights activists stood for. Shame on you.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Room DZ-015
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Looks like you covered all the bases, Mephisto.
Posts: 6 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mephisto
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quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
Quote:
As for those who seek to lovingly and compassionately care for the basic needs of others, numerous and very adequate statutory provisions already exist to accommodate hospital visitation, common title to property, inheritance, health care, power of attorney and many other legal necessities.
One potential solution to this is a law recently passed in the UK, giving the option of a 'civil partnership'. It isn't marriage, but bundles the legal necessities together into one area.
For me the key question is will we show people the love that Christians have for their neighbour by stamping on them, or by setting an example of care and compassion.
I've always thought that we (Christians) don't make enough of a distinction in our minds of the difference between 'being' gay and thoughts and acts. Someone who is gay (that is phyically attracted to the same sex) is not sinning through simply existing and having a particular genetic and social makeup, any more than someone who through their social and genetic makeup is predisposed to jealousy or anger. The sin is the act, intention or thought, rather than the person themselves
Actually, I agree completely, for the following reasons.
1.Homosexuality is not natural, much like oculur defects (needing glasses/contacts/lasik), polyester, and birth control.
2. Heterosexual marriages are valid becasue they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs more children.
3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if Gay marriage is allowed, since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.
5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.
6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.
7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire counrty. That's why we have only one religion in America.
8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that seeing married tall people will make you tall.
9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
10. Children can never suceed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.
11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer lifespans.
12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a "seperate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Seperate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as seperate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
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Mephisto
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Quote:
Marriage was never intended to be a means for making official an economic partnership or legal social contract. Nor is it the appropriate means to bring about equality and fairness to a segment of society. Marriage is the social, legal and spiritual uniting of two people (one man and one woman with the capacity to procreate) into "one flesh" in a spiritual act that God makes a reality. As for those who seek to lovingly and compassionately care for the basic needs of others, numerous and very adequate statutory provisions already exist to accommodate hospital visitation, common title to property, inheritance, health care, power of attorney and many other legal necessities.
God has brains! He has very wisely ordered His creation for everyone's good. Violating this created order will only produce chaos and ultimately, destruction. Those who foolishly and arrogantly flaunt or seek to change God's laws will find that they are engaging in the exercise of self-destruction. For those who are willing to face reality there is a much better option - the life-transforming power of Jesus Christ which can utterly change and completely fulfill our lives. This is the message of love, acceptance and hope that we believe and teach.
:::::::::::::::::::
For those that don't believe in God, well I can see why they would just want to bask themselves in sin. Because once this life is over, and 100% of all people die, that is all the so called fun and self satisfaction they will ever have for eternity. Because if they believe it or not, the bible says:
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hebrews 11:24 through Hebrews 11:25 (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13 through Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
Few find it. Life is about choices. If you know the way and choose not to take it, that is your choice. No one can make anyone make the right choice. We can only show them the way and if they choose to join in with the majority and take the broad road, there is nothing we can do about it.
All I know is I for one want to meet Jesus Christ who gave His very life for all.
We only have to answer for what we do on judgement day, not what others do. I will answer for me and you will answer for you.
There's two forms of marriage, religious, and civil. "Getting married" normally entails a priest or some form of religious authority figure blessing the couple and quoting scripture of whichever respective religion.
Civil marriage entails the exchanging of surname, establishment of kinship, and the legal recognition to be able to inherit someone's possessions in case they die without a will.
Since marriage as a religious tool is a religious ceremony, having the State recognize it would be a violation of the First Amendment. Mixing religion and State is expressly prohibited.
I believe that the Netherlands, including other nations, have legalized gay marriage. Have they slipped into chaos? How would a civilization slip into chaos from legal recognition of marriage between two people?
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Quote:
As for those who seek to lovingly and compassionately care for the basic needs of others, numerous and very adequate statutory provisions already exist to accommodate hospital visitation, common title to property, inheritance, health care, power of attorney and many other legal necessities.
One potential solution to this is a law recently passed in the UK, giving the option of a 'civil partnership'. It isn't marriage, but bundles the legal necessities together into one area.
For me the key question is will we show people the love that Christians have for their neighbour by stamping on them, or by setting an example of care and compassion.
I've always thought that we (Christians) don't make enough of a distinction in our minds of the difference between 'being' gay and thoughts and acts. Someone who is gay (that is phyically attracted to the same sex) is not sinning through simply existing and having a particular genetic and social makeup, any more than someone who through their social and genetic makeup is predisposed to jealousy or anger. The sin is the act, intention or thought, rather than the person themselves
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
Quote:
Marriage was never intended to be a means for making official an economic partnership or legal social contract. Nor is it the appropriate means to bring about equality and fairness to a segment of society. Marriage is the social, legal and spiritual uniting of two people (one man and one woman with the capacity to procreate) into "one flesh" in a spiritual act that God makes a reality. As for those who seek to lovingly and compassionately care for the basic needs of others, numerous and very adequate statutory provisions already exist to accommodate hospital visitation, common title to property, inheritance, health care, power of attorney and many other legal necessities.
God has brains! He has very wisely ordered His creation for everyone's good. Violating this created order will only produce chaos and ultimately, destruction. Those who foolishly and arrogantly flaunt or seek to change God's laws will find that they are engaging in the exercise of self-destruction. For those who are willing to face reality there is a much better option - the life-transforming power of Jesus Christ which can utterly change and completely fulfill our lives. This is the message of love, acceptance and hope that we believe and teach.
:::::::::::::::::::
For those that don't believe in God, well I can see why they would just want to bask themselves in sin. Because once this life is over, and 100% of all people die, that is all the so called fun and self satisfaction they will ever have for eternity. Because if they believe it or not, the bible says:
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hebrews 11:24 through Hebrews 11:25 (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13 through Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
Few find it. Life is about choices. If you know the way and choose not to take it, that is your choice. No one can make anyone make the right choice. We can only show them the way and if they choose to join in with the majority and take the broad road, there is nothing we can do about it.
All I know is I for one want to meet Jesus Christ who gave His very life for all.
We only have to answer for what we do on judgement day, not what others do. I will answer for me and you will answer for you.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Mephisto
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How is gay marriage a challenge to traditional values? What adverse problems will it create for society?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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me, too
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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redbankrick
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Gay marriage is a challenge to traditional family values. This data though is not to bash gays, as the Lord hates the sin, loves the sinner...but offered as information or a vechicle for action...redbankrick
TWIMC: Info on a Petition Against Gay marriage to Congress:
www.nogaymarriage.com/default.asp
A Petition to Members of the 109th Congress Opposing Homosexual Marriage
The new 109th Congress will be voting on the Marriage Protection Amendment, a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as being only between one man and one woman.
Our joint efforts are paying off. Opposition to legalizing homosexual marriage continues to grow. According to a recent poll, those opposing homosexual marriage has gone up 10 percentage points in the last year! Kansas recently became the latest state to put a homosexual marriage ban into their constitution by a margin of 70 to 30.
Please sign the petition supporting the Marriage Protection Amendment. We presented over 2 million petitions to the 108th Congress and they had a big impact. We want to increase that to 3,000,000 for the new 109th Congress. Please sign this new petition even if you signed the earlier one to the 108th Congress.
Sign the petition and forward it to your family and friends.
To sign the new petition, click on the above link. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
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