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Originally posted by Billy:

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Do you believe all those questions require a qualified answer too?

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Please explain what you mean by qualified. If you mean that you need scriptural evidence for those questions, I can provide it.

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Not only so, but the Scriptural referrances which teach on these Truths are indeed qualified, and hinge on further Scripture.

Please post the Scriptural referrances, and we will pray our Father to fill us with wisdom in order to quote the proper referrances and to understand what is being said

Tell me, what do you see from where you are..?
[Ephesians 2:6
and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:]

Do you see Jesus Living His Holy Life in and through you from Heaven?
[Hebrews 12:2a
looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith

Separated off from the world in the spirit with Christ on His Throne?
[2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.]

Or do you see a reflection of Him while here on earth? 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

2 Corinthinas 4:1-12
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we faint not: but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves; we are pressed on every side, yet not straitened; perplexed, yet not unto despair; pursued, yet not forsaken; smitten down, yet not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

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Well, I really don't like the way that the question is posed. Especially the 'separated off' part.

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I'm gonna need further explanation on that one.

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However, I will be gracious in this regard, and answer your question.

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Thank you, praise God!

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Short answer, both.

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Both are Scriptural, and both are meant to exhort born again believers in Christ. There is no divide between a Christian taking his place in Christ on His Throne and a Christian walking in the Spirit here on earth, for He has made the two one. But it's our perspective that matters, for in the first we see only Him and in the second we see Christ in us while we walk with Him. Either way, Christ is preached!

Oftentimes I forget that I am seated with Christ in the Heavenlies and rely on my own strength to accomplish a task, yet it really is Him in me, even though I do not reckon it so! For it is what I've recieved even if I'm faithless at any given moment.

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

I can look back and see JESUS as my Life even when I was unregenerate, for it's His ETERNAL Life I've recieved! No matter where I look, there He is!

I both recieved a new past and a new future as much as I've recieved a new NOW!

I see Him taking the blows of rejection for me when I was a child, I see Him speaking with you in my present through my unique personality and I see Him shining forth through me in the new Heaven yet to come!

1 Corinthians 6:15-20
Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

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Long answer, I see in scripture that the goal of God is to make us holy. That is to say that we are to be set apart from the world. This does not denote an overtone of separating ourselves entirely from the world, because we are called to reach out to the world for Christ. In this sense, we are separated by our inclination toward the things of God, for man is inclined toward only self, apart from God.

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I also see, in scripture, that we are called to reflect Christ, though this concept is not pit in contrast to the concept described above, but is a direct result of it.

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As we live a 'set apart' life for Christ,

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we will grow to be more like Him.

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This is what all of the apostles call us to do in their epistles.

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Like a child putting on his father's clothes, we long to be just like our heavenly Dad.

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Thus we imitate His behavior and strive to be just like Him though we, being mere men, can never attain that standard.

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Paradigm Shift
By John Woodward
September 14, 1998
A concept that has become influential in leadership circles is that of the "paradigm shift." A writer on this topic explains, "The term 'paradigm shift' was introduced by Thomas Kuhn in his highly influential landmark book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Kuhn shows how almost every significant break-through in the field of scientific endeavor is first a break with tradition, with old ways of thinking, with old paradigms. For Ptolemy, the great Egyptian astronomer, the earth was the center of the universe. But Copernicus created a paradigm shift, and a great deal of resistance and persecution as well, by placing the sun at the center. Suddenly, everything took on a different interpretation ... Whether they are instantaneous or developmental, paradigm shifts move us from one way of seeing the world to another. And those shifts create powerful change... The more aware we are of our basic paradigms, maps, or assumptions, and the extent to which we have been influenced by our experience the more we can take responsibility for those paradigms, examine them, [and] test them against reality." [1]

When a believer in Christ comes to grasp the fuller understanding of what abiding in Christ means (John 15), there should be a paradigm shift -- a radical change in his whole outlook.

F. J. Huegel commented on Hudson Taylor's testimony and its relevance to the believer today saying, "The apprehension of this principle (i.e. identification with Christ in death and resurrection) revolutionized the life and work of a great pioneer of modern missions. And, wherever it is apprehended and faithfully acted upon ... the same glorious results must follow. Defeat must give place to victory; spiritual poverty and decrepitude to riches of grace and fullness of life; weakness must give place to power; a mechanical striving to imitate Christ, to a delightful spontaneity in the participation of His divine life; a gnawing sense of insufficiency for Christian life and service to a glorious all-sufficiency in a deep union with the all-sufficient Christ ... That the position which we have been considering is revolutionary, involving radical readjustments in all phases of the Christian life, we would not deny. As never before, 'old things have passed away and all things are become new [2 Cor 5:17].'"[2]

Here are nine "shifts" for the believer's "paradigm":

1. regarding resources for living: self effort shifts to empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:3);

2. regarding perception of personal identity: feelings/ achievements-based identity shifts to a spiritual/Christ-centered identity (Eph 2:6,10);

3. regarding acceptance by God: performance-based acceptance shifts to grace-based acceptance (Eph 1:6);

4. regarding work: doing in order to be shifts to being in order to do (Col 2:6);

5. regarding self-worth: self-worth based on success by the world's standards shifts to self-worth based on being created in God's image and redeemed by Christ's precious blood (Gen 1:26,27; 1 Pet 1:18,19);

6. regarding holiness: the believer is no longer just a 'sinner saved by grace', rather a saint who sometimes sins (1 Cor 1:2; 6:11);

7. regarding ministry: the believer does not primarily 'work for the Lord', but rather cooperates with God through His strength and guidance (Gal 2:8);

8. regarding Christ's offices: Christ is not only Savior and Lord, but Savior, Lord, and Life (Rom 5:10);

9. regarding God's law as a means of righteous conduct: The believer's resource for godliness is not primarily an external code of rules, but rather the spiritually prompted, internal principle of the law of love (Rom 7:5,6; 13:8-10).

British preacher, Stephen Olford observed, "The Avis philosophy ('We try harder') is fatal in the Christian life. We do not live the Christ-life by trying, but rather by trusting. When we try, it is self-effort, and we are bewitched; when we trust, it is Spirit-effort, and we are blessed."

The Galatians 2:20 paradigm is not grasped by biblical and theological study alone -- it is revealed by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God" (1 Cor 2:12). Biblical knowledge is not the same as biblical insight. How the Lord must yearn for us us to appreciate the gracious blessings of life through Christ!

Olford went on to recall his "paradigm shift" about the abundant life: "I recall when this truth became a reality in personal experience. I had already surrendered my life to Jesus Christ for the Christian ministry. While I waited to start my theological training, I spent weekends preaching in local churches. Every time I opened my mouth to speak, I was haunted by the memory of past defeats. Instead of turning to the Lord for deliverance, I tried to conquer the problem by self-effort. The result was disastrous! Instead of being liberated I was paralyzed. "In desperation I went to hear a missionary on furlough give a series of studies on Romans. Expounding chapter 6, he paused to ask this question, 'Is there someone here who is haunted by his past and defeated in his witness?' I knew God was speaking to me, so I listened the more intently. Then he continued, 'Do you know that such introspection is a violation of the principle of grace? God has condemned, crucified, and buried your 'old self.' What right have you to visit the cemetery of your moral past and dig up the bones? Accept by faith what God has done and trust the Holy Spirit to liberate you to live the resurrection life in Christ.' That was all I needed. I saw the foolishness and futility of self-effort, and the grace of God set me free!"[3]

Can you say "amen" to Dr. Olford's wonderful discovery? Are your perceptions of the Christian life humanistic and feelings-based, or Biblical and Christ-centered? Let us continue under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God as He "shifts our paradigm -- unveiling further riches of God's glorious provision for us in Christ!

J.B.W.

Nov. 5, 01

Notes:

a revision of Grace Notes from Sept. 14 & 21, '98

[1] Stephen Covey, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, pp. 28,29).

[2] F. J. Huegel, Bone of His Bone, (Zondervan), pp.91-93.

[3] Stephen Olford, Not I, But Christ, (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books), p. 136.

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Does that make sense to you? It's kind of a hodge-podge of a bunch of different sermons that I've heard on the subject of regeneration and sanctification. Hopefully it doesn't sound like a jumbled mess.

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In Christ,
Billy.

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It's a good day precious saint!

A good day to die.

1 Corinthians 15:31 AMP
[I assure you] by the pride which I have in you in [your fellowship and union with] Christ Jesus our Lord, that I die daily [I face death every day and die to self].

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Canaan and the Cross: The Testimony of James Markey (Part 1)
By James Markey
September 20, 2007
I am from Fort Wayne originally. When I was 9 years old my parents divorced, my dad left the house, my mom went off to work, and my brother and sister went to college. I went from having a fairly normal family life to being all alone. I remember just feeling completely abandoned, ashamed, and depressed. I really felt there was something wrong with me or why would God let this happen? Deep down, I was angry at God. To sum up, I felt rejected. Rejection is good word to describe most all hardships whether it is abuse, neglect, abandonment, etc. The rejection I felt was subconscious, so it was not something I could verbalize. Throughout my childhood and teen years I just felt like I did not belong. I often felt depressed - like I was an outsider.

I went to school at Indiana University in Bloomington where I became a Christian while reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. I had always thought Christians were naive and just wishful thinkers who lacked intellect. Lewis, though, was anything but naive and dumb, and his arguments in my thinking were irrefutable. At some point while reading his discussion of the Moral Law of the universe the Holy Spirit just overwhelmed me. It was as if God revealed directly to me I was a sinner, Christ paid the price of my sins, the devil had been blinding me, and most of all - that God LOVED and ACCEPTED me! The perfect cure for the feelings of rejection I had felt all my life! I was filled love, joy, peace, etc. To put it in spiritual geographical terms I went from Egypt (unsaved), through the Red Sea (salvation) through the Wilderness (fleshly Christianity), through the Jordan (identification with Christ) and straight into Canaan (Spirit-filled Christianity) in one fell swoop! I was on such a high - morphine had nothing on me!

After about three months, though, I experienced rejection in a relationship with a woman, got my eyes off the Lord, and crossed back over the Jordan into the Wilderness. I had had enough teaching about salvation, however, that I knew I was secure, but I couldn't figure out how to back to Canaan (Spirit-filled life). I once again felt rejected by God and others. I didn't know what happened or even what questions to ask.

For the most part over the next 26 years I wandered in the Wilderness. It's not as bad as 40 years, but it still stinks! I had tasted the fruits of Canaan, though, and nothing could dissuade me from pursuing the Lord. I always read and memorized Scripture, prayed, went to Church, went to conferences, etc. My biggest problem was I got caught up with what I believe is a huge problem in the Church - legalism, i.e. DOING in order to BE instead of BEING in order to DO. I kept TRYING to live the Christian life in my own strength (the flesh) and failing. I believe the problem was (and is) that there is so little teaching of--and so much ignorance about--the Cross and identification with Christ.

When I got married, the one thing I knew I would never do was to get a divorce. I didn't care what else happened, I wanted desperately to spare my children (and myself) the pain I felt when my parents divorced. I then experienced the ultimate rejection. Eight years ago my wife ran off with another man and left me with 5 children aged 11,9,7,5 and 1. I was really angry now, but it was subconscious. I am a Christian. How could I accuse God? After all, He can't be wrong!

I now understand why my wife left. It is not much fun living with a Wilderness Christian. Like Israel in the desert, I became angry or depressed (depression is inward anger - like a temper tantrum) when rejection (trials) would come from her or others. Like Israel, I then would run in fear to sin to get my emotional needs met. The result would be guilt and shame, for which I would confess and receive cleansing. However, also like Israel, I could not enter Canaan living that way.

About three years ago I started reading a book by Francis Schaeffer titled 'True Spirituality.' I had never read anything like it before. I had read most of Schaeffer's other books, and respected him greatly. This was the only book, though, he wrote on the Christian walk. No kidding, I read it seven times! In his chapter entitled 'The Centrality of Death' Schaeffer wrote, " As Christ's rejection and death are the first steps in the order of redemption, so our rejection and death to things and self are the first steps in the order of true and growing spirituality. As there could be no next step in the order of Christ's redemption until the step of death was taken, so in the Christian there can be no further step until these first two steps are faced - not in theory only, but at least in some practical practice. Rejected, slain." God was opening my eyes at least intellectually to the Cross, but I still was missing something. I then read several other books along the same lines by Jerry Bridges, Steve McVey, Bill Gillham, and Charles Solomon. I read and reread them. More light was coming in, but I just couldn't get back to Canaan!

A friend then shared something that really helped. He said I had all the knowledge, but lacked having a "shared emotional state" with others. This, he said, is how the Lord matures us. The Holy Spirit used that to open my eyes to the fact that I needed to have a shared emotional state with God through the Holy Spirit which basically means my spirit communing with God's Spirit (2 Cor. 13:14). By spending extended time in the Word, prayer, and study, God began to speak to and strengthen my spirit (inner man). I began to comprehend in my mind and spirit the "love of Christ which passeth knowledge" (Eph. 3:16-19) The Holy Spirit revealed to me why all the rejection had come. It was because of His love! I knew this intellectually, but now God confirmed it in my mind through His Spirit.

Our culture basically says that you should do anything to avoid pain. It wasn't much different with Israel in the desert. Israel could not enter the promised land because they were afraid of suffering and death because of their of unbelief (Heb. 4:6) It was the same for me. The fear of suffering and death was due to my lack of faith and is what kept me in the Wilderness for so long. I had believed the lie that because of the rejection I had faced God didn't really care about me. I didn't believe God would "resurrect" me if I gave up my life. However, the revelation of the Holy Spirit enabled me to move beyond mere intellectual understanding, and I was ready to go to the Cross and enter Canaan.

More than anything else, God used two books by Charles Solomon to set me free from my flesh (self-life) that I was experiencing in the Wilderness: 'Handbook to Happiness' and 'The Ins and Out of Rejection.' Positionally, all believers are dead in Christ and are risen in Him. The "flesh" remains alive, but the old man is dead (Rom. 6:1-11). Basically, what I learned is that I could not experience the reality of the new life in Christ until I experienced the reality of the death of my "old man" in Adam. In order to overcome the flesh I needed to experience the sufferings (rejection) God brought my way: "he that has suffered (to death) in the flesh has ceased from sin, so that he should no longer live the rest of his time in the flesh to the will of man but to the will of God" (1 Pet. 4:1). The good news is there is joy on the other side of the Cross: "For the joy set before Him Jesus endured the cross" (Heb. 12:2). Instead of being resentful of trials, I learned I should submit to them and share in His sufferings so that I can share in the power of His resurrection. The Apostle Paul said his greatest goal was to "know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death" (Phil 3:10). I now understand why Scripture says to rejoice in trials! (Rom. 5:3-5; James 1:2-4). Experiencing the new life in Christ has filled my soul with a deep understanding of God's love and acceptance.

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Canaan and the Cross: The Testimony of James Markey (Part 2 )
By James Markey
September 19, 2007
Through prayer, meditation, and suffering I believe the Lord has led me back into Canaan. He is bringing healing and maturity to my mind, will, and emotions through the fellowship of His Spirit and His people. However, I know my stay here is not guaranteed. My flesh is always lurking and has an accomplice in the devil. The only way to deal with my flesh is to DAILY take up the Cross (Luke 9:22-26), appropriate by faith the death of the old man and the new life in Christ (Rom. 6:11), and emotionally connect up with God(2 Cor. 13:14). Whatever controls the mind controls the walk, so I spend a lot of time in Scripture, prayer, and study.

Crucifying the flesh is also a necessary step to overcome Satan. "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (Rev. 12:11). Just as Israel had to take back the land from their enemies, so Satan wants to once again throw me out of the Spirit-filled life. The devil doesn't mind Wilderness Christians, but those dwelling in Canaan - walking in the Spirit - are a threat to him. Once the flesh is crucified there are two main ways I have learned to do battle with the Enemy. One is to put on the armor of God and the other is to resist the devil.

I put on the armor by praying over and quoting verses associated with each piece (Eph. 6:10-18). The armor begins with the Belt of Truth. The truth that sets me free is that I am forgiven, my old man is dead, and I have a new identity in Christ (John 8:32, Gal.2:20, Rom. 6:1-4, Luke 9:22-26, Col. 3:1-4). The Breastplate of Righteousness has to do with justification and sanctification. Both are by faith and not works. Sanctification (holiness) is made operable as I reckon myself to be dead to sin and alive to God. (Rom. 6:11, Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 1:17;14:23;5:1). The Gospel of Peace refers to the peace I have now with God because Christ fulfilled the law for me (Rom. 5:1, Rom. 8:1-4, 8:15, 1 John 5:18). The Shield of Faith is the most important of all. Satan twists the truth in an attempt to bring about anxiety and fear which are never of the Lord. I quench the fiery darts by praying about all my anxieties and experiencing His peace(Phil. 4:4-7). The Helmet of Salvation has to do with the renewal of my mind which occurs through mediation and study (Rom.12:1-2, Col.3:1-4, Eph. 4:22-24). Finally, the Sword of the Spirit is the offensive weapon of praying over Scripture for others and myself (Heb. 4:12, 2 Cor. 10:4-5).

The key verse to resist the devil is James 4:7: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." I submit to God by placing my agenda at the Cross and acknowledging His plan is best, appropriating by faith my position in Christ, and resisting the devil in the name of Jesus. He really does flee! One of Satan's tricks is to stir up my emotions through lies and then accuse me - as if there was something wrong with me! When that occurs I resist him. Sometimes the emotion stays in which case I know it is from the Lord. Mourning and sadness are feelings we should feel from time to time as God uses them to humble us. Bitterness and anger are dealt with through forgiveness ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do"). The fear of negative emotions is usually worse than the emotion itself. In the past I ran from the feelings in fear. Now I am learning to submit to them, allowing "patience to have her perfect work" (James 1:2-4). In a short time joy and peace return. Fear and anxiety are never from the Lord! (Phil. 4:6-7).

A couple of months after learning to walk in the Spirit I faced my first significant rejection. I found myself losing my contentment and was coveting a relationship with a woman. Previously, this wiped me out. Through Solomon's books and Scripture I was now prepared to deal with the rejection. God just happened to have me reading Joshua about the sin of Achan. The first defeat Israel suffered after entering Canaan was due to Achan's coveting. Just as Israel 's first defeat after entering Canaan was due to coveting, so it proved to be my first significant defeat as well. The solution for Israel was to kill the coveter, and so it is the same for me. Achan was stoned – I had to go to the Cross again. God used the rejection I felt from the relationship to bring me to the Cross.

God was showing me how to deal with rejection. The rejection leads to loss of self esteem, then frustration, hostility and depression. Through surrender and forgiveness the anxiety, frustration, hostility and depression I felt were dealt with. The remaining emotions of rejection – sadness, isolation, loneliness, etc., were then used by the Holy Spirit to bring me to death on the Cross. I then once again identified with Christ's death and EXPERIENCED His acceptance. His love enabled me to overcome the rejection and corresponding low self esteem. I once again experienced the reality of the fact that I am a new creature in Christ – accepted, significant and loved by God beyond anything I can imagine. So what if people reject me?

The way of the Cross is the way to Canaan, the Spirit-filled life: "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests, and be slain, and be raised the third day. If any man will come after Me let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for My sake, the same shall save it. For what is man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?" (Luke 9:22-25). As I have experienced the death of my old man (loss of my life) by submitting to the suffering brought on by rejection, I have been able to experience my new life and His wonderful love and acceptance. The Lord has led me back to Canaan through the Cross.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Do you believe all those questions require a qualified answer too?

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Tell me, what do you see from where you are..?

Do you see Jesus Living His Holy Life in and through you from Heaven? Separated off from the world in the spirit with Christ on His Throne?

Or do you see a reflection of Him while here on earth?

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Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:

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Zeena wrote
Do you have a mentor in the Lord?

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I have several. Though I am in Kuwait, right now, I keep in contact with them via e-mail.

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I have several too, praise God! I'm glad you're keeping in contact.

I heard WildB say that you were in the army over there in Kuwait.

What are you doing over there?

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Also, I am working on setting up a Bible study among the men that I go to chapel service with, here.

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That sounds great! I pray it's fruitful in the Lord.

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This will provide me with even more direct, personal mentoring, until the time provides that I can get back home to my wife and baby girl.

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Yes, though not without a firm covering of prayer

I'll pray for you and they to remain faithful, so that you can be reunited with your beloved[s]!

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At that time, I will graft myself back into my home church and resume ministering and being ministered to.

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Did you ever really stop ministering or being ministered to?

Isn't the service itself a form of ministry?
The men you are with surely need to see the Lord, yes? Don't we ALL!

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However, I am not completely convinced that you and I are on completely different sides of this matter. For instance...

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Do you agree that it is the work of the Lord that save us, and not any work of our own?

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Do you agree that a prayer or a baptism cannot save us, but only the work of the Holy Spirit that draws us to the Savior, Who has already paid for our sin debt through His blood?

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Do you agree that, when we are saved, we are regenerated (or born again), and therefore we are new creatures, in the Lord?

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Do you agree that, as new creatures, we have new desires?

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Do you agree that, as new creatures, we no longer delight in sin, but that it is a burden to us?

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Do you agree that, as new creatures, doing God's will is not longer a burden to us, but a joy?

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Do you agree that this transformation leads to a life that yields the type of spiritual fruit that is described in Galatians 5?

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This is all that I have been trying to convey. If we are truly Christians, it will be evident by our fruit. If we aren't, likewise, it will be evident by our evil deeds and lack of continued repentance.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Do you have a mentor in the Lord?

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Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:
Let us speak the scriptures to one another in love, and not dabble in our personal interpretations of life experiences.

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If you wanted me to quote the Sciptural referrances to my doctrine brother, all you had to do was ASK.

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Does the Lord teach us through personal life experiences? Yes, but He never teaches us anything unbiblical through life experiences. Anything we learn, we should be able to back up with scripture.

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The Holy Spirit often brings up relevant Scripture to the topic and hand, in my day to day walk with Him

I do not look at Scripture through the lens of my experience though, just the opposite, I look at my experience through the lens of the Logos, through Scripture and by abiding in Christ.

When in doubt, I ask Him!

How does my experience line up with what the Holy Spirit is revealing to me at THIS moment..?
[Psalm 105:41]

What Scripture, Lord, is relevant for THIS situation..?
[2 Timothy 3:16-17]

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This is where I find fault with this carnal Christianity nonsense. I don't see where it is described in scripture.

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New Imprinting
By John Woodward
June 7, 1999
June '99 theme: Identity in Christ

In Wisconsin, the International Crane Foundation leads the world in saving this type of bird from extinction. In addition to the zoo-like displays of the various species, there is a special compound called Crane City. Here the birds are protected from all contact from undisguised humans. Orphaned birds in this compound are fed by people in crane outfits! These Big Bird imitators teach the cranes to run, fly, and hopefully learn the natural skills required to survive when reintroduced in the wild.

Why such insistence on avoiding visual contact with the human form of the trainers? I.C.F. explains, "One of the main problems with the hand-reared chicks is that they become imprinted on human caretakers: they orient to humans instead of cranes as their species and, consequently, show no fear of people. This confusion could lead to the death of an introduced crane because cranes are hunted in many areas of the world." If cranes receive false imprinting from humans, they would forfeit their true potential as successful creatures of their species.

Cranes are not the only creatures that are imprinted by their surroundings. As we grew up, we were "imprinted" with identity messages from those around us. Our parents, brothers, sisters, teachers, friends, and others dished out to us (often inadvertently) various doses of negative imprinting--rejection, or inflated imprinting--flattery. Since a child is "wet cement", he interprets these various relationships, conversations, and conflicts as formative messages of his personal identity and self worth.

Now we "fast forward" to our conversion--when we received Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. We rejoiced that our sins were forgiven and that we received the gift of eternal life; but we may have overlooked the tremendous change that took place in our spiritual identity at the New Birth (Titus 3:3-7).

We tend to confuse the virtue of humility with false humility--minimizing the gracious, dignified spiritual identity which is ours in Christ. Humility requires us to give full credit to God and those whom He has used to build our lives. Yet, since we are to think soberly of ourselves, we must not minimize God's blessings to us by believing the twisted imprinting of the past. Instead, we are to affirm our new identity in Christ! We have a new nature! (2 Cor 5:17).

Now you need the Lord to restore your soul by IMPRINTING this new identity in your mind, will and emotions.

The practicality of this month's topic is vital, for "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." (Rom 12:3; Prov 23:7 ). Our attitudes, motivation, and morality are intuitively guided by what we perceive as our REAL identity. Since some exaggerate our identity, and others dwarf it, we must attentively study what God Himself has revealed to His children in the Bible.

Let us focus on the Epistle to the Ephesians now, looking for the phrase "in Christ" or "in Him". Here are some of the 22 occurrences; rejoice in them!

"To the SAINTS who are in Ephesus, and FAITHFUL IN CHRIST JESUS." 1:1

"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING in the heavenly [places] IN CHRIST." 1:3

"He CHOSE US IN HIM before the foundation of the world." 1:4

"IN HIM we have REDEMPTION through His blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins, according to the riches of His grace." 1:7

"IN HIM also we have obtained an INHERITANCE." 1:11

"IN WHOM also, having believed, you were SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise." 1:13

"IN WHOM we have boldness and ACCESS with confidence through faith in Him." 3:12

"And RAISED [us] up together, and made [us] SIT together IN THE HEAVENLY [places] IN CHRIST JESUS." 2:6

"That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His GRACE in [His] KINDNESS toward us IN CHRIST JESUS."2:7

"For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created IN CHRIST JESUS for good works." 2:10

"But now IN CHRIST JESUS you who once were far off have been BROUGHT NEAR by the blood of Christ." 2:13

"That the Gentiles should be FELLOW HEIRS [with Israel], of the same body, and PARTAKERS OF HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST through the gospel." 3:6

"God IN CHRIST FORGAVE YOU." 4:32

Notice that almost all of these passages are from Ephesians chapters 1-3. The Spirit guided Paul to write the doctrinal foundation first, then the practical applications in chapters 4-6. You readers with the gift of exhortation want to be sure that we do not overlook the good works referred to in chapters 4-6 -- granted. My concern, though, is that we need to discern the difference between spiritual realities and spiritual duties. Our identity in Christ is a SPIRITUAL REALITY whether we have a "bad hair day" or not. As God renews our minds, we can daily reckon as true our identity in Christ; thus our attitudes and actions will increasingly correspond to Christ who is our life.

A suggestion for your journal would be to weave these precious truths into a description of your spiritual identity in Christ; e.g "Thank You God that you have made me a saint, a faithful one in Christ..." The other epistles contain dozens of additional insights on the believer's new identity.

Ask the Wonderful Counselor to illumine you regarding the negative imprinting you have carried with you and let go of it. Look to His Word to renew your mind and meditate on your new identity IN CHRIST!

The hymn, "My Father is Rich in Houses and Lands", testifies

I once was an outcast stranger on earth,
a sinner by choice and an alien by birth;
But I've been adopted, my name's written down,
an heir to a mansion, a robe and a crown.

I'm a child of the King,
A child of the King;
With Jesus my Savior,
I'm a child of the King.

Our Father, we renounce the harmful, false imprinting about our identity which we have received in this fallen world. We joyfully affirm what You have declared about our new identity in Christ. We praise You! Amen.

JBW

June 7, 1999 Vol. 2 # 23

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Sources:

International Crane Foundation, quoted in J. Daniel Lupton, People of Promise (Mainstay Church Resources) p.18

"My Father is Rich in Houses and Lands" by Harriett E. Buell

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Do we sin, as Christians? Yes. Billy Graham sins. John MacArthur sins. We all come into our walk with Christ with a lifetime of bad habits that need to be done away with. However, at the moment of regeneration, we are seeded with a new found love for Christ, which is evidenced in how we live our lives. We don't simply "receive" Christ as an accessory to our lives. We receive Him as the substance of our lives. You have rightly said that without Him we have no life, for He is Life.

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If He is at work in us, how can we stray from Him?

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If He is our Shepherd, how can we stray?

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If He is our Father, how can we sin without being disciplined and brought back into communion with Him?

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These are all questions answered by the scriptures that I listed above. If a man sins, it does not mean that he is not a Christian. If God does not chasten him, he should hit his knees and pray that God reveal to him if he was ever saved to begin with.

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Agreed. But if he does sin, he aught to ask the Lord what's going on, I heard you the first time, and was not in disagreement. Though I would not say that we should be dwelling on the sin itself.. For in so doing you MUST take your eyes off of Jesus!

Tell me, what do you see from where you are..?

Do you see Jesus Living His Holy Life in and through you from Heaven? Separated off from the world in the spirit with Christ on His Throne?

Or do you see a poor reflection of Him while here on earth?

1 Thessalonians 3:5
For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent Timothy to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless.

Colossians 2:8
Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

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If he dies after living a life of sin in which he was never brought back into communion with God, it is highly likely, according to scripture, that he was never truly saved.

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Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. Galatians 5[/qb]

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For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6:10-16

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Romans 6:3
Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

James 4:4
Ye adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.

Not speaking to you specifically bro, just quoting in accordance with what you also quoted..

For we have no power in ourselves to resist sin apart from the Spirit of Christ And if we chose to put Christ aside, as our Life here on earth, we do both grieve AND quench the Holy Spirit with who we are sealed.

It's AS we submit to God in Christ Jesus that He fills us with His Holy Spirit.

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Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? 2Corinthians 13:5

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We can have full confidence that He that began a good work in us will see it through to fruition. If we are truly His we will continue to grow, and though we may stray, we will not get far before He brings us back to Him. If He never brings us back to Him, we were never saved to begin with. This is scriptural.

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Yes it is Scriptural

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I can sure tell you that it has happened in my life, many times, but that doesn't matter if it is not found in scripture. However, I have provided for your plenty of scriptures that point you to this very truth.

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On a side note, I like that you credit the Holy Spirit for scripture memory. Jesus did say that this is one of the roles of the Helper. That He would remind us of the things that Jesus said. I need to work on my scripture memory. I can usually remember what a verse says, but not where I read it. Or I can remember where I read it, but not exactly what it says. I need to work on that. Perhaps I should ask a mentor how to better meditate on scripture.

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As far as prayer goes, I am happy to hear that your prayer life is going so well. It is good to feel as though you have a good open line of communication with our Father, throughout the day. I would only suggest that you not neglect the great benefit that is having a regularly scheduled quiet time. God does tell us, throughout the Bible, that we need to be still and know... that we need to be still and listen... that we need to be still and hear. In our stillness, reflection and study of His word, we learn great truths from the One that is most qualified to teach us.

In Christ,
Billy.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:
As much as you quote scripture, I assume that you must atleast be fairly equipped to interpret it. Can you please tell me what these verses have in common?

"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:17-20

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. Galatians 5

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6:10-16

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? 2Corinthians 13:5

Compare 2Corinthians 13:5 with 1John 1&2, and tell me that there is no evidence in our lives of God's grace. If we don't see a stronger desire to serve the Lord, and we haven't been freed from sin in order that we may serve and glorify Him with our walk, what power has He given us? What is our testimony without this? What has He freed us from, if we are still in bondage to sin? What have we died to, when we died with Christ, if we did not die to our old sin nature? The Spirit bares witness with our spirit, in as much as we will walk in the Spirit, if we are truly saved (Galatians 5:16).

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The work of sancification in my life has been three fold.

The moment I recieved Jesus I had peace with God and joy when thinking of what He had done for me.
I was instantaniously sanctified by the sanctification of Jesus unto God.

During my walk with Him He has spoken both into my life [spirit] and over my soul concerning many sins that were plaguing me. I've witness a LOT of them fall off, and expect the others to do so to, for Jesus conquered it! Yet there are a few bestting sins I've entrusted to the Lord [it's not immoral sin, but a few habbits]. Here I am being sanctified daily in my experience.

Did not Israel march around the walls of Jerico seven days and nights before blowing the trumpet?

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

They MUST fall off, for mighty to save is my redeemer, yet in God's time. Do I work with Him, yes I do. He works in me, and I believe on Him to make a short work of my flesh. And He is, praise God!

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Now, in answer to your question those passages have quite a few things in common.

God is speaking with believers in these passages, giving us a clear warning of what happens when we either refuse to abide in unbelief or in rebellion.

God is neigh to us, but are we neigh to Him? Ye, closer than neigh, for He indwells us by His Spirit! Do we indwell Him? Are we in Him as He is in us?

He is in us and He came to save us! Save us from the enemy, the world, the flesh and the devil! Yet, we are not up to the task, for there is only One who is Righteous, only One who is sinless, only One who became sin for us so that He could save us from it!

Yea, He conquered the power of sin becuase He became it, it could not overcome Him and it died with Him! We died with Him!

[Yes, The Holy Spirit is speaking this to me every bit as He is to you, probably more!-lol].

We need to reckon what He's done our our behalf as our very own, as it really is ours in Christ!

He is THE LIFE, He is our very Life-Breath!
He is the Eternal Life and He has given us that very same Life! The Life of God, who is not overcome with sin, but the overcomer of it!

Do we speak with Him as such, or as some long distance relationship? You know, I don't even stop to pray anymore, He is THAT close! I can speak with Him on the potty and there He is! You know why? It's cause this is HIS LIFE, it's JESUS in me [and you and us]! We really did unite ourselves to Him upon believing on His Name! We really did recieve the Holy Spirit as our promised possession, though HE is the One doing the possessing as we yeild our bodies to Him in Holy Sacrifice. YET, it's not us, but Jesus in us! He is our Life!

Some relevant Scripture is being served up to my mind by the Holy Spirit now;

Romans 5:7-9
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And again, and in greater measure;

Romans 5:10-11
For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Is a carnal Christian still a Christian, yes he is! But God has no much more for us as we come to LEARN to trust Him, rest in His Love for us and His sure promises and most of all in abiding in Christ.

I would ask if you abide in the Spirit at ALL times? I know I don't, yet, I am growing more accustomed to it with the passage of time and familiarity. I still often forget.. Yet He never forgets me, He reminds me! He reminds me of what I've recieved when I RECIEVED JESUS!

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

It is for LOVE that He rebukes and chastens us! It's is for our GOOD that we obey! Our faith depends on it! Yet God is Faithful should we refuse.

Psalm 31:24
Be strong, and let your heart take courage, All ye that hope in Jehovah.

Did I answer properly?

If so, may I please ask a question?

Was Paul a a condemned sinner during the time when he was walking after the flesh?

Romans 7:24
Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

Before finally reaching out to Christ as Life?
If so, how could He write the Scripture?

... The historic present tense [Greek] is used throughout Romans 7 ...

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Bearing the Cross
By John Woodward
May 17, 1999
The story is told of a child in a church service who was intrigued by the hymn, "Gladly, the Cross I'd Bear". Some time following church, the little one told his mother that he really liked the song they sang about the bear. "What song did we sing about a BEAR?" she asked. The child responded, "You remember, "Gladly, the Cross-eyed Bear"! Hopefully his mom could enlighten him. . .

Perhaps we too feel a little confused about the various facets of the Cross. Andrew Murray noted two fundamental aspects of the Cross. Christ died for us--that is the REDEMPTION of the Cross: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit." (1 Peter 3:18).

Believers died with Christ--this is the FELLOWSHIP of the Cross: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."(Gal 2:20).

Since our theme this month is "the flesh", let us study some verses that relate the cross to "the flesh". Galatians 5:24 states "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." In other words, because the believer is united with Christ, THE AUTHORITY OF THE FLESH HAS BEEN BROKEN! We are free!

Now I think we need to answer two questions arising from Galatians 5:24. First, Does this verse teach that the flesh is no longer present in the believer? No; the context indicates that the believer needs to "walk in the Spirit" to avoid the "works of the flesh" (v.13,16,17-see previous issue). [However, the "old man" (our unregenerate human spirit) WAS crucified with Christ and IS NO LONGER IN THE PICTURE because it was replaced with "the new man" (the regenerate human spirit) -- Rom 6:6, Col 3:9,10, 2 Cor 5:17] .

Second, Does Galatians 5:24 teach that the believer somehow directly crucified his flesh? I propose that this crucifixion of the flesh is a consequence of our union with Christ at salvation. Our part was to repent and believe; God's part was to unite us with Christ and BREAK THE AUTHORITY OF SIN in our lives--(John 8:32).

The believer's indirect "crucifixion of the flesh" is comparable to the indirect use of "save" found in 1 Corinthians 9:22. Paul wrote, "To the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means SAVE some." Here Paul aims to "save some" through his preaching of the gospel. Would Paul directly save them? No; God would save them THROUGH Paul's witness. Similarly, believers "have crucified the flesh" indirectly as a consequence of being united with Christ: "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Cor 6:17). So through Christ, THE AUTHORITY OF THE FLESH BEEN NULLIFIED BY GOD!

This truth is also taught in Colossians using the symbolism of circumcision: "And you are complete in Him [Christ], who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Col 2:10-12). Circumcision was the Old Testament sign of the covenant relationship with God. It conveyed the idea of putting off the sin inherited from Adam, and anticipating the promised Seed who would come--Christ (Gal 3:16). Those who are redeemed by Him are spiritually "circumcised". As the prophet foretold, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jeremiah 31:33). When we walk in the Spirit we are living in accordance with our "new heart".

There is another use of "putting to death" of the flesh that needs to be examined. In Romans 8:13 we read, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you PUT TO DEATH the deeds of the body, you will live." Charles Solomon explains, "When flesh is in the ascendancy or control we are functionally (though not organically) separated from the Source of Life which results in a STATE of death (Rom 8:6) while having a STANDING of Life (Col 3:4)". In other words, if the believer "walks according to the flesh" he does not lose his salvation, but he does hinder fellowship with God. (Fleshly thoughts and actions grieve the Holy Spirit--Eph 4:30).This "putting to death" the deeds of the flesh differs from the FACT of our crucifixion with Christ and the blessings that flow from it (as described above). Rather, Paul exhorts us in Romans 8:13 to apply the Cross to the flesh patterns which still exist in the soul.

Our POWER SOURCE for this is the Holy Spirit: "If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [for holy living] through His Spirit who dwells in you."(Rom 8:11).

OUR STRATEGY is to set our minds on the truth, on our freedom, on Christ, and on the Spirit's active ministry in us: "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit." (Rom 8:5).

One concluding reference to the cross in the believer's life is Luke 9:23: "Then He (Jesus) said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." Here our Savior calls us to say "no" to our will and "yes" to God's will--no matter how difficult the consequences. The Lord Jesus demonstrated this commitment in His prayer in Gethsemane (Mark 14:36).

Are we gladly willing to bear His Cross? This involves reckoning our true identity and freedom in Christ. Thankfully, we can rely on His Resurrection life in us to live according to God's good, acceptable, and perfect will. This is the life God calls us to live--a life without regrets.

Our gracious God, we thank you for the freedom from the authority of the flesh that is our birthright in Christ. As we stand in grace, we choose to live by grace. In Christ's victory we pray, amen.

JBW

May 17, '99 vol 2 # 20

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:
"I have been faithless at times in my walk with the Lord, but He has never left me, nor forsaken me. I have turned my back on Jesus, only to find Him in front and behind no matter where I've turned. I have ran from Him, only to find Him beating me to the mark!"

Momentary wanderings do not mark an unregenerated Christian, nor does it point to a lack of salvation. When we know that God has not done a work in a person is when He does not chasten them. When He does not bring them back to Himself. This may take time, but as John points out, in his first epistle, this will not become a lifestyle for the person. As Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. Paul exposes just what that fruit is, in Galatians. As we know from nature, a tree that bears no fruit is dead.

So there will be evidence of salvation.

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The evidence your looking for is found in none other that Christ Jesus, who is your Life!

If you're looking at yourself for the fruit of the spirit you're looking at the wrong person, for there is Only ever One who is of God, whom we have recieved by faith that He would save us.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

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We can determine whether we are saved or not, by looking into the scriptures.

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Romans 8:16-17
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I'm not going to look at myself to see fruit in order to believe what I've recieved. I'm going to believe what I've recieved becuase HE said I've recieved it!

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

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It should be terrifying to any 'believer' when they find themselves living a sinful lifestyle.

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It should bring them back into the lifestyle of repentence that is the evidence of our regeneration.

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Is the evidence of our salvation found in that, at one time in our lives, we repented, or in that we are still repenting, today? Is the evidence found in that, at one time in our lives we had faith in Jesus Christ, or in that we still have faith, today? What does the Bible say about it? The entire Bible?

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:
In an effort to understand how 2Timothy 2:13 lines up with 1John (because, as scripture, they cannot contradict one another) I looked up 2Timothy 2. It seems to me that this verse is taken out of context, in regard to the manner in which you use it. I say this because it is preceded by two verses that flatly contradict your interpretation of it.

11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

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Or we will do the will of His Father.

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12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

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This is plain to understand.

So, how does 2Timothy 2:13 fit into this paradigm?

"...if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

Christ is faithful to those of faith. This is true, right? This is obviously not a verse that is talking about those that have fallen from faith in Christ, but rather those that profess Christ, but have never put faith in Him. Paul is obviously saying (considering the context) that Christ is glorified, even when those that do not know Him confess Him, because He does not lose His true nature, which is faithfulness.

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This is my take on this verse. What say you?

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged |