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Topic: Question about epistles.
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Eden
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Hi, BrianGrass1234. You said:
I know others claim that they do, but I was wondering if the writers themselves ever claimed that authority.
Eden here:
I think Paul directly states that what he taught did not come from man but came from God:
Galatians 1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood.
Paul was certified by God Himself, starting on the road to Damascus and thereafter for 14 years in the desert:
Galatians 1
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2
1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation ...,
Be blessed,
Eden
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
[QUOTE]To BrianGrass1234: The epistles and NT are useful to us in that they comprise a record of the word of God in the time of the early church.
They comprise a record of the word of God - and blueprint.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
I am not substituting my own thoughts. I am going by what the Bible says.
There is no question about what it says. We disagree about what it means.
To BrianGrass1234: The epistles and NT are useful to us in that they comprise a record of the word of God in the time of the early church. God reveals facts about His character, realities of the eternal life and eternal living, His plan for man, etc., within the words that He speaks. We should hold this record in high esteem...as we should for the words He speaks today.
Aaron
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I know Paul, as well as the others were hand picked by Jesus himself, in person, to go and spread the gospel throughout the world. So I know that their words carry alot of wieght, but are they specific instruction to all christians, like Jesus's words, or were they specific to the churches given to and passed on a further knowledge for the rest of us.
I believe these men were a voice for Jesus, because he needed an earthly contact to fulfill all of his instructions for good Christian living and to establish his church.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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BrianGrass1234
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I think I need to clarify my post. I'm looking for support as to whether or not Paul's and Timothy's and the others letters to churches hold absolute authority as does God's law given to Moses does and the words of Jesus that apply to all christians, or were they just instruction to those churches, but to be seen as additional knowledge and understanding for the rest of us and not law.
I know Paul, as well as the others were hand picked by Jesus himself, in person, to go and spread the gospel throughout the world. So I know that their words carry alot of wieght, but are they specific instruction to all christians, like Jesus's words, or were they specific to the churches given to and passed on a further knowledge for the rest of us.
I'm asking this because is seems weird to me to have the law given to the Jews, then Jesus becomes the perfect sacrifice to fulfill the law and then these other's come along to lay down an other law. It just makes more sense to me that this was instruction and advice to these churches rather than a new law to follow since the debt to sin was already paid.
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
The scriptures say that the Word is God and God is the Word, and that the Word became flesh. This is saying that the whole Bible is God-breathed, which would include even the words of Paul.
Stop right there. Are you saying that your Bible became flesh? "The Word of God" is clearly Jesus Christ. Why do you say it is the Bible? Also, what does the Bible say about "all authority"? Who has it? Does the Bible ever say that "the scriptures have all authority"?
quote:
1 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
I have no issue with this as long as you're not substituting your own thoughts. For instance: many people read "and is profitable for" as "and is the only thing necessary for". Also it is doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness that makes a saint perfect not the scriptures...the scriptures merely assist in those endeavors. If all was in the text, how could the Pharisees search the scriptures and not find authentic life?
Here is another example: I can say "A reliable engine is profitable for your trip Westward." Am I claiming that an engine is the only thing required for the trip? No. I said "it is profitable". Meaning: It will help you.
Aaron
I am not substituting my own thoughts. I am going by what the Bible says. Also, I would never compromise the power of the scriptures, by calling them merely an 'engine' or a 'text'.
John 1: (KJV) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.....
14AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
The scriptures say that the Word is God and God is the Word, and that the Word became flesh. This is saying that the whole Bible is God-breathed, which would include even the words of Paul.
Stop right there. Are you saying that your Bible became flesh? "The Word of God" is clearly Jesus Christ. Why do you say it is the Bible? Also, what does the Bible say about "all authority"? Who has it? Does the Bible ever say that "the scriptures have all authority"?
quote:
1 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
I have no issue with this as long as you're not substituting your own thoughts. For instance: many people read "and is profitable for" as "and is the only thing necessary for". Also it is doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness that makes a saint perfect not the scriptures...the scriptures merely assist in those endeavors. If all was in the text, how could the Pharisees search the scriptures and not find authentic life?
Here is another example: I can say "A reliable engine is profitable for your trip Westward." Am I claiming that an engine is the only thing required for the trip? No. I said "it is profitable". Meaning: It will help you.
Aaron
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Col. 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— A little loose in the translation in my opinion. This version is more precise:
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;This speaks of the obedience to God's word I suggested. Where as the first one may suggest that the all the words of God were given to Paul, which is clearly error.Aaron
The scriptures say that the Word is God and God is the Word, and that the Word became flesh. This is saying that the whole Bible is God-breathed, which would include even the words of Paul.
1 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The great dispensation of Paul -
Col.1:24 I am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am participating in the sufferings of Christ that continue for his body, the church. 25 God has given me the responsibility of serving his church by proclaiming his entire message to you. 26 This message was kept secret for centuries and generations past, but now it has been revealed to God’s people. 27 For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory.
28 So we tell others about Christ, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all the wisdom God has given us. We want to present them to God, perfect in their relationship to Christ. 29 That’s why I work and struggle so hard, depending on Christ’s mighty power that works within me.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Caretaker
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John 14:
26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
2 Peter 1:
19: We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 3:
15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17: Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18: But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
1 Thess. 5:
27: I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
2 Timothy 3:
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Paul was not merely a shadow of Jesus. He was an empty vessel who was filled with power to teach about the power of the Holy Spirit, introduced in Acts 2, and he went travelling from city to city forming new churches. He and his apostle followers were given a special commission to unveil the mysteries of the Word.
By special commission do you mean "greater than any other commission given"? Also, are you suggesting that Paul was more than a vessel for God's work?
quote:
Col. 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—
A little loose in the translation in my opinion. This version is more precise:
quote:
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
This speaks of the obedience to God's word I suggested. Where as the first one may suggest that the all the words of God were given to Paul, which is clearly error.
Aaron
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
To be precise Paul did not "contribute to the word" he was merely obedient to it. The testimony of his obedience is found within the epistles and the New Testament.
I would have written it: The Word of God (Jesus) spoke (the word of God) to Paul and he was inspired to write the epistles.
Aaron
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake
Paul was not merely a shadow of Jesus. He was an empty vessel who was filled with power to teach about the power of the Holy Spirit, introduced in Acts 2, and he went travelling from city to city forming new churches. He and his apostle followers were given a special commission to unveil the mysteries of the Word.
Col. 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
[QUOTE]My response shows that Paul was an extremely important contribution to the Word, because he wrote the Epistles, inspired by Jesus himself.
To be precise Paul did not "contribute to the word" he was merely obedient to it. The testimony of his obedience is found within the epistles and the New Testament.
I would have written it: The Word of God (Jesus) spoke (the word of God) to Paul and he was inspired to write the epistles.
Aaron
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Key word: "a"...as in "a chosen vessel". We mustn't read it "the"...as in "the exclusive vessel". More than just Paul carried the gospel of God in the world.
The OP said "I would like to know why the epistles are included as the Word of God, and not just church instruction."
My response shows that Paul was an extremely important contribution to the Word, because he wrote the Epistles, inspired by Jesus himself.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Jesus said re: Paul
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake
Key word: "a"...as in "a chosen vessel". We mustn't read it "the"...as in "the exclusive vessel". More than just Paul carried the gospel of God in the world.
Also, context is key. He was answering Ananias' wavering obedience with clarity. Just prior to the verse above is this:
quote:
Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name."
The Lord's response was: "Duly noted. But my plan continues anyways. And because you're weak in your understanding I'll tell you a bit more about my choice for a vessel."
Aaron
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Good NewsforAll
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Everything written in the Bible is the Word of God. After Jesus went to heaven, he had to have someone continue his message of saving grace. That is why we have the Epistles.
Jesus said re: Paul
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I believe the whole Bible is the inspired Word of God. Maybe that is a weakness on my part, I don't know.
betty
Weakness? Nonsense. I will study the Bible until I die. In fact, studying the Bible helps us discern the word of God.
Those from Berea were noted for studying the scriptures and believing Paul's message on account of their study:
quote:
"Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men."
I believe their diligence was important for a couple reasons: 1) they were hearing something from Paul that had never been said before and 2) there was a tremendous amount of pressure from the traditions of men and religion to reject what Paul was teaching.
Aaron
P.S. I sent you a PM.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I believe I can learn many things studying the Scriptures of both the Old Testament and New Testament. From what I can see they did not ask us to worship them, but to worship Jesus.
In many ways I have the faith of a child when it comes to the Bible. I believe the whole Bible is the inspired Word of God. Maybe that is a weakness on my part, I don't know.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Do you believe your words are the Words of God?
My words? No, not my words. I have spoken what God has wanted me to speak in some situations. Therefore I have spoken the word of God. And, what I say on behalf of the Holy Spirit carries the same authority as did Paul's words spoken in the same manner. This is true because the authority of God's word lies not within Paul or myself but with the Holy Spirit. (there are some differences between Paul and myself, of course, but that is another topic).
quote:
Do you believe anyone's writtings today should be added to the Bible?
No. Of course not. As saints we are commanded to discern what is the word of God and what is not. The word of God has authority in our lives...no matter if it was written down 2000 years ago so that we may read it or spoken to us last week by another saint.
The authority is His. And we live by every word that continually proceeds from the mouth of God.
Bless you,
Aaron
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Do you believe your words are the Words of God? Do you believe anyone's writtings today should be added to the Bible?
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Consider: such a statement invalidates the teachings of the apostles. God gives his word to people...daily.
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I disagree. I believe the Words written by the Apostles in the Bible is indeed the Word of God.
thank you,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
We are not learning God's Words from people but from the Word of God.
Consider: such a statement invalidates the teachings of the apostles. God gives his word to people...daily.
quote:
This does not mean we can't learn from Christian writers, but when what they say is different from the Bible, we are listening to the wrong teacher.
I agree but...Consider: the apostles wrote about many things that were "new" and were revealed by the Lord from heaven. The saints were charged with "discerning the truth" long before the Bible was compiled.
quote:
There is a trend today to dismiss things from the Bible we don't like. That is why there are homosexuals who are board members and clergy in our world today.
I couldn't agree more! However, I believe that most problems in the church arose from the practice of elevating the work of the original apostles to a "special" status. Rather than seeing what they did as a vital working of the Body of Christ that continues to this day their work is segregated as "unachievable" by today's standards...just like modern Christendom has done with their "annointed" and the work they do.
This is what happens when anything other than the Holy Spirit is given ultimate authority in the Christian life...the same Holy Spirit said to have "all authority" in the Bible is still the ultimate authority today.
One has to wonder, if such a truth is so explicate and in the Bible then how did we start believing something different?
Aaron
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TEXASGRANDMA
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The reason I believe the Bible should be the final Word on our lives, is there are many wolves in sheep clothing who will tell you things that are suppose to be of From God that is not true. God will not tell you anything that is contradictory to the Bible. I remember when hearing some folks on TV talking about their time living with a cult. The first thing the leader did was prohibt the Bible. Why? Beacuse he did not want them to read the Bible for themselves and find out the truth for themselves. When Jesus was on this earth He made it clear that He did not come to do away with God's law. I will not attend any Church where the Preacher does not use the Bible as His text. We are not learning God's Words from people but from the Word of God. This does not mean we can't learn from Christian writers, but when what they say is different from the Bible, we are listening to the wrong teacher.
There is a trend today to dismiss things from the Bible we don't like. That is why there are homosexuals who are board members and clergy in our world today.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Aaron
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First, let's get something straight: the "word of God" is what the Father is saying at the moment. Sometimes He will use the scriptures (OT and NT) to convey His message. Sometimes He will speak something that is not in the scriptures. Given that the enemy can quote from scripture, knowing the "word of God" from words of men or the enemy requires discernment from the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said, "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me."
This is a reality for the children of God: they will live according to the word of God...the one that proceeds from Him in the moment.
That being said: The "Word of God" (big "w") is Christ. But I don't want to hang here too long.
As far as the epistles are concerned...this is written about them:
"..and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."
In my mind there is no doubt: Paul recorded the word of God in his epistles to the saints. That is to say Paul wrote what the Lord instructed him to write. I believe the other NT writers were equally invested in their letters.
Be Blessed,
Aaron
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I believe God spoke through the writers of the Epistles. I believe the whole Bible is the inspired Word of God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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BrianGrass1234
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I would like to know why the epistles are included as the Word of God, and not just church instruction.
I know the law was given to Moses from God, so thats the Word of God. I know all the history should be accurate. The prophets were also instructed by God and Jesus was God so his words get that authority as well. But do Paul and the rest that wrote letters to the church ever say that their writings were directed by God and carried that absolute authority? I know others claim that they do, but I was wondering if the writers themselves ever claimed that authority.
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