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Topic: Romans 13
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Itty-Bitty Girl, take a moment and pray for understanding before you read what I have to say.
Luke 6:
20 He lifted up his eyes to his disciples, and said, "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the Kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be filled. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.
22 Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall exclude and mock you, and throw out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake.
23 Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven, for their fathers did the same thing to the prophets.
24 "But woe to you who are rich! For you have received your consolation.
25 Woe to you, you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.
26 Woe, when men speak well of you, for their fathers did the same thing to the false prophets.
27 "But I tell you who hear: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who mistreat you.
29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer also the other; and from him who takes away your cloak, don't withhold your coat also.
30 Give to everyone who asks you, and don't ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again.
31 "As you would like people to do to you, do exactly so to them.
32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive back as much.
35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.
36 Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is also merciful.
37 Don't judge, and you won't be judged. Don't condemn, and you won't be condemned. Set free, and you will be set free.
38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you."
39 He spoke a parable to them. "Can the blind guide the blind? Won't they both fall into a pit?
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41 Why do you see the speck of chaff that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?
42 Or how can you tell your brother,'Brother, let me remove the speck of chaff that is in your eye,' when you yourself don't see the beam that is in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck of chaff that is in your brother's eye.
43 For there is no good tree that brings forth rotten fruit; nor again a rotten tree that brings forth good fruit.
44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For people don't gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.
45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings out that which is good, and the evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings out that which is evil, for out of the abundance of the heart, his mouth speaks.
46 "Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?
47 Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like.
48 He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.
49 But he who hears, and doesn't do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great."
Slavery is a terrible thing, and those that have participated in selling of the souls of men/women/children, that have not plead the Blood of Yeshua over the horrible sin of mistreating other human lives, will have punishment enough in Hell for eternity.
Itty-Bitty Girl, if you have made Yeshua Lord of your life, if Yeshua is your Savior, you must forgive those who have done this horrible act of making slaves of Yahweh’s Creation.
There is a principle in the scriptures you must consider….
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed;
One of my daughters was raped and she became pregnant….
I had a choice to make life or death, blessing or curse
I could have become bitter and let that horrible experience become a curse and bring death in our lives….
But I choose life, I choose to forgive the man that raped my daughter, I choose to love that little baby boy, I choose to make Yeshua Lord of the situation. Now my daughter is married to a wonderful husband, that has made that little boy his own, their home is a blessing to many because I choose life.
Have you ever considered the blessing that is yours because your ancestors where taken from their home and made slaves….
Yes it was horrible, but look at the condition of being a citizen of Africa and a citizen of America
Blessing or curse
Life or death
We all have the choice everyday
Love you Itty-Bitty Girl, praying that you will understand my words and Yeshua’s love
dale
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said:
Our founding fathers did nothing to end chattel slavery. The founding fathers considered blacks to be chattel.
Was that something that born-again Christians would do???
Eden here:
In those times, yes. Abraham and Sarah had hundreds of slaves.
Because of the way that the white southerners twisted the bible, people make it seem like God condoned chattel slavery. They think that chattel slavery is what God wanted, because they think it's "in the bible". Chattel slavery is NEVER CONDONED BY GOD.
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, Eden?
How dare you say that God condoned the abuse and cruelty done to my ancestors? Indentured servitude is NOT CHATTLE SLAVERY. Abraham and Sarah may have had hundreds of “Indentured servants” but NOT chattel slaves. What a DISGUSTING thing for you to say! How could a person be so cruel to even say such a thing? That statement is an obscenity to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Slavery continued into the 1800s, but it is to the credit of the Christian nations that when the Christian nations heard about the butchery that was involved with getting a hold of slaves by the slave traders in Africa, then the Christian nations were the first to work towards the abolition of slavery.
Well, I’m not so sure about that, Eden. I have been told otherwise:
quote:
But recently, many historians have begun to focus on the role slavery played in the lives of the founding generation. They have been spurred in part by DNA evidence made available in 1998, which almost certainly proved Thomas Jefferson had fathered at least one child with his slave Sally Hemings. And only over the past 30 years have scholars examined history from the bottom up. Works by Gore Vidal, Henry Wiencek, and Garry Wills reveal the moral compromises made by the nation's early leaders and the fragile nature of the country's infancy. More significant, they argue that many of the Founding Fathers knew slavery was wrong--and yet most did little to fight it.
Source Cited: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040112/12slave.htm
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Eden
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Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said:
Our founding fathers did nothing to end chattel slavery. The founding fathers considered blacks to be chattel.
Was that something that born-again Christians would do???
Eden here:
In those times, yes. Abraham and Sarah had hundreds of slaves. Slavery continued into the 1800s, but it is to the credit of the Christian nations that when the Christian nations heard about the butchery that was involved with getting a hold of slaves by the slave traders in Africa, then the Christian nations were the first to work towards the abolition of slavery.
But slavery was a sign of the times. Joseph was sold as a slave into Egypt.
In the days before the nations borders became as fixed as they are now (and some borders are still in flux), there were numerous little wars in which people took the spoil of war, which included taking people captive and make them serve in the capacity of slaves.
To be sure, this is all sinful Adam stuff. Eversince Adam and Eve sinned, the glory of God was no longer attainable and Satan did what he could to encourage baser behavior, and even Israel was part of this, being descended from the first Adam.
But when Jesus comes, all iniquity will cease, including whatever slavery is STILL being practiced somewhere in the world this very day.
Be blessed.
Eden
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TB125
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Aaron, I'm glad that my further explanation was helpful.
The Christian's challenge is to be "in the world" without being "of the world", to provide the spiritual blessings of God's gospel without getting bogged down in the political procedures of the world or imprisoned or executed by its worldly officials. So the concerned Christian always has to decide what kind of response he/she is going to make to the pressures and abuses that the world seeks to impose upon him/her and others to force them into its mold. The difficulties of this challenge are being demonstrated in hundreds of ways every day in various incidents and lawsuits and confrontations that are reported in the media from around the world. Some of these difficulties are reflected in the various issues and candidates upon which people will be voting next Tuesday.
It is good to share with you Aaron in this timely discussion.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Aaron
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Yes, Bob, it helped to clarify your point.
To me the following distinction is important: Paul was called to be a servant of Christ, to preach the gospel of God. The consequence of obedience to that call was persecution.
Paul did not set out, for instance, to rid the woman of her demon. Nor did he attempt to enlist a cadre of like-minded fellows to aid in his cause.
Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner."
If we don't believe God speaks to us today then the only alternative is worthless religiosity with good intentions.
Aaron
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TB125
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Aaron indicates quote:
I have the most contention with the phrase "demonstrate against".
in my statement.
Some Christians may "demonstrate against" public practices and policies, such as abortion or racial segregation or same-sex marriages, and others may not.
Whether or not a Christian "demonstrates" or just preaches and teaches, his/her witness may create an incident that is addressed in a civil court. See Acts 16:18-24, which describes how Paul and Silas were arrested, whipped, and thrown into prison because they delivered a slave girl from her demonic power to tell fortunes and according to her owner they were "advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice" (Acts 18:21. This is a perfect example of my point.
Such persecution, even of a more severe nature such as execution, is happening every day in some areas of the world where Christians and their teachings are not to be accepted or tolerated. Christians in these areas have to make life-and-death decisions regarding how they are going to respond to the policies and practices that the government imposes on its citizens and residents when these policies and practices are basically abusive or otherwise objectionable.
I hope that this further explanation clarifies my point.
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Bob
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Peter and Paul preached and taught against idolatry. Paul was arrested several times by Roman officials. He stirred up riots in several cities. Both Peter and Paul were executed in accord with Roman justice, not by any Jewish or secular authorities.
There aren't many Christian topics that one can preach or teach about today that won't offend someone and possibily create a civil disorder or lawsuit. Note the frequent arrests and conflicts that are caused by some Christians who are trying to stop abortions, pray in public, display the Ten Commandments in public, or teach against the violence of some Islamic radicals.
I think that my point is still valid.
I have no problem with their preaching and teaching. I have the most contention with the phrase "demonstrate against". To me, this implies an organized rally to show one's strength of political force. While riots (and mass repentance) did break out it was not the motive of Paul or Peter to bring about such responses from the crowds. The preachers preached the message. Their charge was simply "say what God is telling you to say at the moment". The crowds responded to the message empowered by the Spirit of God.
Conversely, we imagine that God's strength is displayed in large crowds. The larger the crowd... the greater display of God's power.
To illuminate the works of Dr. King: did he preach Christ? He certainly referenced Him on occasion. And maybe it is a simply missive by the media powers that be but Dr. King is known for preaching equality and anti-discrimination. The other thing that tips me off about his work is this: even the heathens laud his accomplishments. If he had preached Christ the heathens would want nothing to do with his work. But he preached something that resonated with the heathens as well.
Mind you, this is no diatribe against political equality and anti-discrimination merely illumination of how events deemed "worth-while" are not necessarily counted as "works of righteousness" by our Lord.
Christ is offensive enough to the world. Preaching His message is certainly dangerous but change will occur because of it. Men fall into error when they seek "the change" before "being obedient to the Lord".
Aaron
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TB125
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Peter and Paul preached and taught against idolatry. Paul was arrested several times by Roman officials. He stirred up riots in several cities. Both Peter and Paul were executed in accord with Roman justice, not by any Jewish or secular authorities.
There aren't many Christian topics that one can preach or teach about today that won't offend someone and possibily create a civil disorder or lawsuit. Note the frequent arrests and conflicts that are caused by some Christians who are trying to stop abortions, pray in public, display the Ten Commandments in public, or teach against the violence of some Islamic radicals.
I think that my point is still valid.
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Bob
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
2. Preach and teach and demonstrate against its abuses and wasteful practices, but be willing to accept the consequences of doing so that may be imposed by the government and its representatives.
a. Examples: Martin Luther King Jr., Peter and Paul, and other martyrs to their convictions and faith.
[/QB]
As far as I know Paul and Peter preached for Christ not against governments. And, it seems to me, that if anything was spoken of against the governments it was written in private letters to the saints so that they could be prepared.
Christ is offensive enough to the worldly. A dedicated effort to cause disruption is not needed.
Aaron
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TB125
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BrianGrass1234 asks quote:
If a government is breaking God's commands, are we still obligated, by the word of God, to pay?
This is just one of several such questions in this thread.
I will seek to respond to this question and those related to it by briefly stating that there only four options for any citizen of any country in the world to take in response to his/her government. They are as follows:
1. Pay the taxes and fees that the government imposes on its citizens and residents, obey its laws, vote as allowed, and put up with its abuses and wasteful policies and practices.
2. Preach and teach and demonstrate against its abuses and wasteful practices, but be willing to accept the consequences of doing so that may be imposed by the government and its representatives.
a. Examples: Martin Luther King Jr., Peter and Paul, and other martyrs to their convictions and faith.
3. Leave the abusing and wasteful country and take up residency and citizenship elsewhere.
a. Examples: the Pilgrims, and immigrants from various nations of the world.
4. Lead and or participate in a violent revolution to overthrow the abusive and wasteful government and to establish a new one that will be more responsive to the needs of its citizens.
a. Examples: Signers of the Declaration of Independence, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln
Sooner or later each adult citizen of every nation has to decide how he/she is going to relate to his/her established government. He/she only has these four options at his/her disposal. Good citizenship is a part of God's challenging call to each of his disciples, so each of us has to decide how we are going to participate in the affairs of the government under which we choose to live. Since no government is perfectly wise and compassionate, this decision is not an easy one to make.
It may help to realize that there are really no "political" solutions to the abusive and wasteful practices of government. That is why the preaching of the "gospel" and the ministry of evagelism is so important in the Christian's practice of his/her faith and citizenship.
In response to Brian's specific question, I would suggest that Christians are to pay their taxes and preach the "Word" until the officials of the government stop them from doing so by "nailing" them to their "crosses".
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Bob
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Example: A german keeps paying his taxes to Hitler, even though he thinks what is going on is evil, but doesn't want the SS to come after him and his family. Is he sinning by supporting the murder of so many through is tax money? Or his he just following Romans 13?
Jesus respected the laws of the land. Notice what he said -
Mark 12:13 Later the leaders sent some Pharisees and supporters of Herod to trap Jesus into saying something for which he could be arrested. 14 “Teacher,” they said, “we know how honest you are. You are impartial and don’t play favorites. You teach the way of God truthfully. Now tell us—is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?
15 Should we pay them, or shouldn’t we?” Jesus saw through their hypocrisy and said, “Why are you trying to trap me? Show me a Roman coin, and I’ll tell you.” 16 When they handed it to him, he asked, “Whose picture and title are stamped on it?” “Caesar’s,” they replied.
17 “Well, then,” Jesus said, “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.”His reply completely amazed them.
Matthew 17:24 On their arrival in Capernaum, the collectors of the Temple tax came to Peter and asked him, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the Temple tax?”
25 “Yes, he does,” Peter replied. Then he went into the house.
But before he had a chance to speak, Jesus asked him, “What do you think, Peter? Do kings tax their own people or the people they have conquered?”
26 “They tax the people they have conquered,” Peter replied.
“Well, then,” Jesus said, “the citizens are free! 27 However, we don’t want to offend them, so go down to the lake and throw in a line. Open the mouth of the first fish you catch, and you will find a large silver coin. Take it and pay the tax for both of us.”
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Jesus did not rebuke the devil with "all authority is given by God, not you", but with "Serve only God."
So if this means Romans 13 does not apply to all authority, should we support these false authorities by paying taxes to them?
However, the reality is that we also live in the natural. If we have a mayor who supports gay rights and sponsors a splashy Gay Pride parade every year, we still have to respect our municipal government by paying our property taxes every month.
I don't think we would not get too far without paying taxes to 'false authorities."
A lot of people are against the monarchy in Canada and figure it is a waste of good taxpayers' dollars, but still Canadians should show respect to the Queen.
My question is of principle. If a government is breaking God's commands, are we still obligated, by the word of God, to pay? Not looking at the worldly consequences, just what God thinks. I'm not really talking about our government, but in general, on principle. And furthermore, if the government is doing evil, and we continue to pay our taxes, are we then supporting evil and sinning if we know were are money is going.
Example: A german keeps paying his taxes to Hitler, even though he thinks what is going on is evil, but doesn't want the SS to come after him and his family. Is he sinning by supporting the murder of so many through is tax money? Or his he just following Romans 13?
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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TB125
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Here is my brief summary regarding the basic functions of government that may address some of the concerns that are expressed in this thread regarding the "authorities" that are cited by Paul in Romans 13 and whether or not Democrats can be Christians in another thread.
The basic functions of government are to provide all of its citizens with these benefits:
I. Primary benefit
1. Safety from physical and mental harm from others through these means:
a. Military and police forces.
b. Laws regarding public behavior and the treatment of others, building codes, and public transportation.
c. Courts and judges to allow citizens to request justice for injuries that they have suffered because of someone else.
d. Appropriate agencies at federal, state, county, and local levels to manage the necssary provisions to provide this safety.
Examples: national military forces, national guard, police forces, judges, correction officers, FBI, FAA, Coast Guard, Homeland Security, Highway Commission, etc.
II Secondary Benefits
1. General well-being of individuals
a. Laws governing the practice of medicine and the production and distribution of beneficial drugs.
b. Laws governing the production and distribution of food.
c. Laws governing the care of dependants, individuals who can't take care of themselves.
d. Some funding for this function at civic levels.
2. Education of children and youth to prepare them for responsible participation in civic life and private business, to be mature independant adults.
a. System of public schools with established laws and standards for educational programs and their curricula.
b. Official managers responsible to the people for the administration of these programs and the approved distribution of the required funds.
c. Hired principals, teachers, and other workers to operate the schools.
d. Approved curricula at every age level.
Problems that hamper the effective implementation of these functions in any form of government (republic, democracy, monarch, dictatorship, confederacy):
1. There are not enough citizens who are in agreement regarding what is most beneficial (best or good) for all of the people. This creates constant internal struggles.
2. Although equality of every citizen is desirable, not every person is equal. Some have more resources, skills, energy, motivation, and compassion than others.
3. Life is not fair and some individuals are not interested in being fair with others. Too many individuals, including elected officials, are selfish and too many individuals don't know how to spend (or manage) someone else's money (public funds).
Good citizenship is a part of God's oversight for his creation. His rules and standards for public conduct are not limited by the labels that we attach to them, such as democratic or republican Christian or secular. They are established, and God is in charge! Our commission is to glorify God by how we love him and our "neighbors". I hope this helps to shed some light on this matter.
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Bob
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Jesus did not rebuke the devil with "all authority is given by God, not you", but with "Serve only God."
So if this means Romans 13 does not apply to all authority, should we support these false authorities by paying taxes to them?
However, the reality is that we also live in the natural. If we have a mayor who supports gay rights and sponsors a splashy Gay Pride parade every year, we still have to respect our municipal government by paying our property taxes every month.
I don't think we would not get too far without paying taxes to 'false authorities."
A lot of people are against the monarchy in Canada and figure it is a waste of good taxpayers' dollars, but still Canadians should show respect to the Queen.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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BrianGrass1234
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Luke 4:5-8
5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours."
8Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.
This also seems to nullify the stance that all authority is by God. Jesus did not rebuke the devil with "all authority is given by God, not you", but with "Serve only God."
So if this means Romans 13 does not apply to all authority, should we support these false authorities by paying taxes to them?
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becauseHElives
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![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) BrianGrass1234, Good NewsforAll,
The Child of Yahweh, owes complete obedience only to “The Kingdom of Yahweh”
In recent years, Christians have interpreted Romans 13 as a command for unlimited submission to government by Yahweh. Many proponents of this belief have sat passively by, in the soft pews of their place of worship, while evil has triumphed in most areas of family and church life. In our pacifistic smugness, many have allowed government to become god without even knowing.
Yet, when confronted with the true meaning of Romans 13, absurd accusations are shouted in religious rhetoric toward those who would dare to break an unjust law or even to question the almighty government. The opponents of unlimited submission to government are deemed as rebellious, anarchist and disobedient. However, there is no practical, historical or biblical consistency in the shallow agreements of these simpletons.
First, unlimited submission to government is not practical. For a philosophy to be a valid philosophy, it must be consistent. As a result, it does not make practical sense to blindly obey a tyrant like Adolph Hitler or deem a law such as abortion-on-demand a legitimate law just because one's government says it is public policy. However, if Romans 13 teaches unlimited submission to government, then we must obey and acknowledge all laws, good and bad, as the will of Yahweh. If all governments are of Yahweh, then all laws are of Yahweh. This in not practical from any point of view.
Second, it is not historical. Our founding fathers recognized and understood tyranny and despotism. They perceived the ultimate end of the king's actions. Thus, they besought George III to relent in his persecutions and implored him to uphold his covenant agreement.
In July of 1774, our forefathers met in Fairfax County, Va., and considered ways of forcing Great Britain to redress American grievances. George Washington and George Mason were the instrumental agents in drafting what has come to be known as the "Fairfax Resolves."
Ponder for a moment Resolves five and six:
"Resolved that the claim lately assumed and exercised by the British Parliament, of making all such Laws as they think fit, to govern the people of these colonies, contrary to the first Principles of the Constitution, and the original Compacts by which we are dependent upon the British Crown and Government; but is totally incompatible with the privileges of a free people, and the natural Rights of Mankind; will render our own Legislatures merely nominal and nugatory, and is calculated to reduce us from a state of freedom and happiness to slavery and misery."
"Resolved that Taxation and Representation are in their nature inseparable; that the right of withholding, or of giving and granting their own money is the only effectual security to a free people, against the encroachments of Despotism and Tyranny; and that whenever they yield to one they fall prey to the other."
All of the Resolves are loaded with bullets that explode against a tyrannical and despotic government. The "shot that was heard around the world on Lexington green was loaded in the "Fairfax Resolves." How can one make that statement? After pleading with George III to uphold his covenant agreement and after seeking for a redress of grievances, the "coup de grace" is plainly stated in the 23rd Resolve:
"Resolved that it be recommended to the Deputies of the general Congress to draw up and transmit an humble and dutiful petition and remonstrance to his Majesty, asserting with decent firmness our just and constitutional Rights and Privileges, lamenting the fatal necessity of being compelled to enter into measures disgusting to his Majesty and his Parliament, or injurious to our fellow subjects in Great Britain; declaring the strongest terms of duty and affection to his Majesty's person, family and government, and our desire to continue our dependence upon Great Britain; and must humbly beseeching his Majesty, not to reduce his faithful subjects of America to a state of desperation, and to reflect, that from our Sovereign there can be but one appeal."
In simple terms, the Resolves offered George III two obvious choices. One was to fulfill his covenant obligations and be the king and ruler to the American Colonies that he had agreed to be or, second, to prepare for war. George III was asked to reflect upon the fact, that if he did not keep his end of the covenant, there could "be but one appeal."
Last --and most important -- it is not biblical. Daniel disobeyed Darius and went to the lions den. The three Hebrew children broke the law for not bowing. The parents hid baby Moses from Pharaoh. Rahab lied to protect the Hebrew spies. The Apostles went to prison for preaching Christ in the authority of Heaven. Paul and his followers in Acts 17 did contrary to all the decrees of Caesar in order to make Jesus the King. Even Jesus lived in direct opposition of the political religious leaders of his day and went to the cross for us.
Romans 13 is a treatise by Paul and the Apostles on the institution of model government. As we rightly divide the word of truth and take this passage in its total context, we will discover seven truths:
1. Good government is ordained by Yahweh.
2. Government officials are to be good ministers who represent Yahweh.
3. We the people must obey good and godly laws.
4. As we relate Romans 13 to America, our Constitution is the higher power -- not the IRS tax code.
5. Good government is not to be feared.
6. In America, we are to pay honor and custom and constitutional taxes to whom it is due.
7. Government is to protect the righteous and punish the wicked.
As a result, we have a practical, historical and biblical mandate to fervently disobey any unconstitutional laws and all government officials who cease to be good ministers of Yeshua. Yahweh almighty is the only power that deserves unlimited obedience.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Romans 13 Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
It is saying exactly what it appears on the surface to mean. Respect the authority of your present government. Further down in the scripture it talks about paying taxes, so there is no doubt what the scripture is telling us.
The present government may not be perfect, but it is still a democratic government. It has taken its stand against embryonic stem cell research, abortion and same-sex marriage. It supports Israel, which is very crucial and biblical.
I shudder to think of the alternatives if another government comes into power. If America goes against these basic principles listed above, they will bring judgment on themselves, as Romans 13 says.
We live in a very disrespectful society. Because of the freedom of choice, comedians feel as if they can say anything and everything they want on talk shows, the internet is overflowing with smear campaigns, and look at the numerous tabloids that distort the truth in a shameful way.
I've heard about a case where a missionary went into a third world country and worked above and beyond, what could be asked of anyone, and only had two converts in five years. It was found out that people back home in her church weren't being encouraged to pray for her. They started to pray for and it was astounding the turnaround in her bringing converts to Jesus. Hundreds became saved after that.
We should show respect and pray for our leaders. Whenever I get jokes about Bush in my e-mail, I delete them right away without passing them on.
We must pray for the present government for wisdom and not be tearing it down.
Yes, Romans 13 means exactly what it is saying. It is speaking about governing authorities, taxes. There is no getting around it.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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BrianGrass1234
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BecauseHelives:
At the end of the passage where it says:
"This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."
If the government is not following God's principles, and therefore would not be an authority created by God, then is taxes, revenue, respect and honor due? Should we refain from paying taxes to a government if those taxes are being used to support what we believe to be wrong?
Even outside of this passage I see that if someone asks of you, you should give. But if you knew that the person was going to take that money to buy a gun to rob or murder another, should you still give it?
I always thought the answer would be yes, we should pay our taxes, but know I'm not so sure. Maybe I should be protesting the tax and make them come and take it from me by force. Because if it is forcefully taken, then I did not condone it and my hands would be washed from supporting evil.
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becauseHElives
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Thanks T7, I needed that little encouragement ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
I pray and hope for that place also,
Dale, your brother in Yeshua
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Thunderz7
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becauseHElives,
good info,
it brings to attention that place where we can live totally in Christ;
which would bring me over the line to your side in that debate we had on swords and Christian defense.
I pray and hope for that place,
be blessed in Yeshua
T7
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becauseHElives
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Understanding Romans 13:1-7
How are we going to overcome Romans 13? What was Apostle Paul really saying? The best way to bring understanding on Romans 13 is to ask, "Who was apostle Paul writing to at Rome?" The answer is found at Romans 1:7: Paul was writing to all those in Rome who are "beloved of God, called to be saints." He was not writing to the general population at Rome. He was specifically addressing the "called out ones," the Body of Christ.
If apostle Paul was advocating obedience to secular authorities, then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul beheaded if he was promoting obedience to Rome?
The world loves its own. If Paul belonged to Caesar, Caesar would not want to kill his own. If Paul was promoting "be subject to Caesar," then Paul would be Caesar's friend. You would not kill your own. You don't destroy the very instrument that advertises for you.
The truth is that Apostle Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government known as the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Already this new government was turning the world upside down. Caesar had Paul killed to help stop this threat to Rome's power.
If Romans 13 does not mean "obey the State," what does it mean? Romans 13 means, "Remember them which have the rule over you," as you will also find at Hebrews 13:7. Since Paul was addressing the saints at Rome, it is logical that he would instruct them to submit to those who look after their souls. It is a reminder to be obedient to the authorities God has placed over His people. For they are truly the "ministers of God to thee for good." Unlike worldly rulers, God's ministers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Therefore, "do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same."
Powers Not Ordained By God
Romans 13 is probably the most devastating thing to a Christian in the hands of the ungodly. It sounds so convincing to obey those who appear to be in power. For too long, secular governments have used Romans 13 as a club to beat Christians into obedience to them. Just because a group maintains power through their guns and jails, does not mean God put them there.
God said there are powers not ordained by Him at Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not."
God didn't put them in power over the righteous.
That's Satan's idea. The righteous don't need worldly, filthy authorities, which are no authorities at all. Do you think that they can instruct the righteous? They themselves steal. They themselves are perverts. And they presume to instruct the righteous? I don't think so.
Secular Governments Persecuted Paul
Apostle Paul had many troubles with worldly rulers. He was given 39 stripes five times by the Jews, beaten with rods three times, in perils by his own countrymen and by the heathen, and frequently in prison. (See 2 Corinthians 11:23-26). In Damascus the governor kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to apprehend Paul. "And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands," wrote Paul at 2 Corinthians 11:32.
That is the same Paul that wrote Romans 13. He was forced to flee from the civil authorities, those "powers that be" that people say are ordained of God. Sorry folks, this does not compute. When Paul says, "the powers that be," he is saying the powers that be powers, are ordained of God. In other words, the only true powers are those that God ordains.
The crux of the matter is this, Does Paul in Romans 13:1-7 argue that the civil government of this world has legitimate authority over the people of God? We believe that the obedient, called-out people of God are not bound to obey manmade civil governments. God's people are answerable to God above all else and are bound by His commands. At the same time, God's people are not to use their liberty as a cloak to do evil, to foment rebellion or waste time trying to influence the politics of the governments of this world. Furthermore, we believe Paul in Romans 13:1-7 is referring to the spiritual leaders of the Body of Christ, not the civil authorities of this world.
If Paul is saying, "Obey the civil authorities," then he has a conflict in his life. Is Paul promoting Caesar or separating from Caesar? If Paul is promoting Caesar, there is no way I want Paul in my Bible. He can't work for Caesar and Jesus Christ. Caesar already has his writings, they are called "revised statutes" or the "law of the land." You can have them if you want. I would rather have God's Word. Actually that which is called the "law of the land," is the law of the devil. The term is used in the U.S. Constitution, where men claim that their laws are the supreme law of the land (See U.S. Constitution, Article VI).
Supreme Law of the Land
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). Do you know what that represents to a Christian? These two commands are the Supreme Law of the Land. If you believe that something else is the supreme law of the land for a Christian, someone has deceived you. It was a thief who drew you away from the true Supreme Law of the Land (see John 10:8).
If you have the two great commandments, how much allegiance do you have left for the worldly rulers of this dark age? Let me tell you, you have ZERO allegiance to Satan and his agents. All your time is spent "loving God" and "loving neighbor," and there is no room left over for obeying Satan and his minions.
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 1 John 5:19
Submitting to the King of Heaven
As true followers of Jesus, we are led by the Spirit and our lives reflect the fact that we belong to another kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven. Our stay on earth is only transitory. As citizens of Heaven, we are bound to submit and pledge allegiance to the King of Heaven and His government over us. We are not bound to obey the government of some nation just because we happen to be living within their so-called "borders."
Remember, "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof" (1 Corinthians 10:26). Yet there is a pack of thieves out there who have divided up the earth and perverts are ruling over it. And they are doing it at the egging on of Satan himself.
Romans 13 has been wrongly interpreted by ruling secular governments to mean a Christian must submit to them. This misinterpretation forms a powerful weapon to neutralize and misdirect the power of God's Kingdom.
As the followers of Jesus Christ, we belong to another Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom has its own government, its own laws, and its own leaders. Apostle Paul was not commanding us in Romans 13 to submit to the civil authorities of the kingdoms of this world. He was commanding us to submit to the authority of God's leaders who oversee the "called-out ones."
It is a fallacy that Paul was commanding Christians at Rome to submit to the secular government. It is time that Christ's followers renounce their allegiance to the ever-changing governments of men. They must set an example that there is a higher and more perfect form of government, the Kingdom of Heaven.
Of course there will be consequences. Jesus was brought to Pilate to be crucified on charges of "perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King" (Luke 23:2). We, too, must be willing to sacrifice even our very lives to proclaim God's sovereign rulership over us.
Loyalty and Obedience to Christ
When we boldly declare that we belong to God's Kingdom, we are left with no choice but to trust God for His provision in the face of a hostile world. We quickly learn that our safety is in our obedience. To trust in carnal weapons and physical force is vanity. We serve a living God. He is well able to make a way for us regardless of how much the modern day Nebuchadnezzar's rage and threaten to destroy us.
Christians are in no way bound by the Scriptures to obey and support the manmade governments of this world. We are bound to live peaceably with all men to the greatest degree possible. Yet our loyalty, allegiance, and obedience must always be found at the feet of Christ. Our goal is to see souls brought to Christ. The more fully we separate from the world and consecrate ourselves to God, the more power we will have to infiltrate the hearts and minds of men with a living example of the Gospel. The world must see that God does have a people on this earth, and that His power dwells in their midst. Let us commit ourselves to His kingdom and be His people.
Warning: Beware of the Living Bible and the Good News Bible. They are merely Bible paraphrases, not translations. The wording is not true to the original Hebrew and Greek. The scriptures are perverted to support secular Christianity.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Our founding fathers were bornagain-type Christians who I think “left” England to find more religious freedom, and yet our Christian forefathers, as you said, instituted checks and balances, to keep our inborn evil tendencies in check.
Our founding fathers did nothing to end chattel slavery. The founding fathers considered blacks to be chattel.
Was that something that born-again Christians would do???
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Eden
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Hi, BrianGrass1234. You said:
Is it OK for God to use government to kill, torture, oppress and enslave because we all are sinful? Is that why it says if you do good, you don't need to fear the
government, but since we are all sinful we should all fear the government?
Eden here:
Great question, BrianG. If God has put authority in place and if we do good, we will receive praise but if we do bad, this authority will punish us. And yet, there are those were doing good, say under Hitler or Stalin, and yet the authorities tortured them and killed them.
I don’t know the answer to your question, BrianGrass1234. The Topic reminds me of another thread in which becauseHElives put forth the idea that now that he is a bornagain Christian, God will protect him or now he will let himself be passively killed by an evil person if God allowed such an evil person to enter his home and becauseHElives will not use a sword to defend himself or his family (or something like that).
Our founding fathers were bornagain-type Christians who I think “left” England to find more religious freedom, and yet our Christian forefathers, as you said, instituted checks and balances, to keep our inborn evil tendencies in check.
It would therefore have SEEMED more appropriate for God to say, “look, you may get creamed out there by authorities, even if you are trying to be good.”
And indeed, there is a greater abundance of “watch out” and “sent you as sheep among wolves” and “they will slay some of you” and “they will persecute you”, and others like it, and there are A LOT MORE of those which sort of “override” the solitariness of that one “authority” scripture.
When there is one scripture and a bunch of similar scriptures, then I tend to go with the bunch of similar scriptures OVER the one scripture.
Be blessed.
Eden
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Know that democracy is not good. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on whats for dinner.
Democracy is good, better a democracy than a dictatorship.
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
according to the scripture above:
"for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
How does that allow for Hitler not being established by God? Or is authority only to be accepted if it follows God's commands and conducts itself justly?:
I believe so. The oppressor needs to be removed from power. A new establishment must be put in place, that serves without oppression.
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BrianGrass1234
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Know that democracy is not good. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on whats for dinner. Thats why our forfathers created a representative republic with checks and balances to keep government from getting to big. But this is beside the point.
according to the scripture above:
"for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
How does that allow for Hitler not being established by God? Or is authority only to be accepted if it follows God's commands and conducts itself justly?:
"3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong."
Would that then mean as soon as Hitler started hurting those that have done no wrong, did he loose the authority given by God? Or was it allowed by God because we have all sinned?
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I mean there have been very evil governments throughout history. Just look at the martyrs, they were killed by those in authority during this time. Is it OK for God to use government to kill, torture, oppress and enslave because we all are sinful?
No way, God does not use the government in that evil way, and God is not pleased with this current government. The American government is supposed to help its people, because the people are in power. This is supposed to be a democratic government, but it is not. The people are supposed to be in power, but they are not.
This rascist and classist government needs to be changed into a government that cares for all of the people, that would please God. And if it be God's will to abolish this evil government, and create a new good one, then may His will be done through us, the people. We can use political power to make this happen.
Power to ALL people! God is no respector of persons.
Remember what it was like before 1776??? America was a British colony, and they fought for a change. In spite of the British conviction that Americans had no right to establish their own laws to promote the general welfare of the people living here in America, the colonized immigrant felt he had no choice but to raise the gun to defend his welfare.
And for the American government, for the American people, one such form of protection was the Declaration of Independence, which states: ". . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."
And now, with that said, I believe that now these same colonized White people, these bondsmen, paupers, and thieves deny the colonized Black man not only the right to abolish this oppressive system, but to even speak of abolishing it, with the labeling of such a movement as "anarchy".
This is very sad. This is NOT a democracy, I believe that neither you nor I have ever witnessed democracy, all that we have ever witnessed is hypocrisy.
There needs to be a change, we must keep our faith in God, but we must show our faith by our actions.
I believe that God is calling us to action, to make a change, to be political.
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Just an idea.
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BrianGrass1234
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Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
I get how we are to submit to athorities to be a good witness. But the parts about how government is always carring out God's will and authority, as well as being established by God. We can look at Hitler, Stalin, ext... I mean there have been very evil governments throughout history. Just look at the martyrs, they were killed by those in authority during this time. Is it OK for God to use government to kill, torture, oppress and enslave because we all are sinful? Is that why it says if you do good, you don't need to fear the government, but since we are all sinful we should all fear the government?
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