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Author
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Topic: If I am wrong, then what do these verses mean to you?
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bought@paid4
Advanced Member
Member # 6110
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pio:
Seriously,
(Joh 9:3-5 ESV) Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
(Jam 2:14 ESV) What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
(Jam 2:17 ESV) So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
(Jam 2:18 ESV) But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(Jam 2:20 ESV) Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
(Jam 2:21 ESV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
(Jam 2:22 ESV) You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
(Jam 2:23 ESV) and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
(Jam 2:24 ESV) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(Jam 2:25 ESV) And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
(Jam 2:26 ESV) For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
(Rom 2:13 ESV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
There are two kinds of righteousness in the Bible: works righteousness and faith righteousness. Faith righteousness is the most important because it is our salvation. Works righteousness should be a result of our salvation, but it won't be unless we renew our minds to God's word. We are not, and cannot be saved from God's wrath through works righteousness. We are saved by grace, through faith. Read Galatians, Ephesians, Romans. That will help you understand better.
Posts: 26 | From: Missouri | Registered: Sep 2006
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Eduardo Grequi
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In the course of History and Time, the word, "LAW" has become synonymous with the word ,"TRADITION". Even in Judism of today, tradition has become law and the torah of the law not well understood. In Catholicism as well as in older Protestant faiths, traditions have now become equated to law. Faith in Christ, tradition and the purity of the law has to be seperate entities.No way traditions are to be kept infalliable and equal to the word of God. When a faith does this, the faith is built and anchored in apostacy. or Babylon. John 3:16 For God so loved the world... when you keep reading the verse you find out, that grace came thru Jesus and not by the traditions of men or if you will the Chruch's extra-biblical tradition. If a person chooses to follow this route, then that person has choosen a different Jesus then the Jesus I came to love and worship. Now on a human level, if one reads the bible and adds to it- then the faith is no different from Mormonism, Catholicism, Jehovah Witness,Islam, Hinduism etc or any other faith. It may look good. It may be pagentery, but God will never allow Holiness with Mammon. We today like the Jews then are challenge to worship God alone and not add to it mammon.
The word "MAMMON" is a common Aramaic word for riches, akin to a Hebrew word signifying to be firm, stedfast (hence Amen). Anything of value is treasure, therefore when we utilize the word "AMEN" we are saying it has value and it should be counted as treasures.
(Mat 6:24) No one is able to serve two lords; for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other; or he will cleave to the one, and he will despise the other. You are not able to serve God and wealth.
From the GILL Commentary:
Mat 6:24 - No man can serve two masters,.... Whose orders are directly contrary to one another: otherwise, if they were the same, or agreed, both might be served; but this is rarely the case, and seldom done. This is a proverbial expression, and is elsewhere used by Christ, Luk_16:13. The Jews have sayings pretty much like it, and of the same sense as when they say (w),
"we have not found that כל אדם זוכה לשתי שולחנות, "any man is fit for two tables."''
And again (x),
"that it is not proper for one man to have two governments:''
their meaning is, that two things cannot be done together:
for, either he will hate the one, and love the other; he will have less affection and regard to the one, than to the other; as the service or orders of the one, are less agreeable to him than the others;
or else he will hold to the one; hearken to his commands, obey his orders, and abide in his service;
and despise the other; show disrespect to his person, neglect his orders, and desert his service:
ye cannot serve God and mammon. The word "mammon" is a Syriac word, and signifies money, wealth, riches, substance, and everything that comes under the name of worldly goods. Jerom says, that riches, in the Syriac language, are called "mammon"; and so the word is often used in the above senses, in the Chaldee paraphrases (y), and in the Talmudic writings; where (z) דיני ממונות, "pecuniary judgments", or causes relating to money affairs, in which were pecuniary mulcts, are opposed to דיני נפשות, "judgment of souls", or causes relating to life and death. The account and interpretation Irenaeus (a) gives of the word, is very wide and foreign; who says, that
"Mammon, according to the Jewish way of speaking, which the Samaritans used, is one that is greedy, and would have more than he ought; but, according to the Hebrew language, it is called adjectively Mam, and signifies one that is gluttonous; that is, who cannot refrain himself from gluttony.''
Whereas it is not an Hebrew word, nor an adjective, but a substantive, and signifies riches; which are opposed to God, being by some men loved, admired, trusted in, and worshipped, as if they were God; and which is incompatible with the service of the true God: for such persons, whose hearts go after their covetousness, and are set upon earthly riches, who give up themselves to them, are eagerly and anxiously pursuing after them, and place their confidence in them; whatever pretensions they may make to the service of God, as did the Scribes and Pharisees, who are particularly struck at by this expression, both here and elsewhere, they cannot truly and heartily serve the Lord. "Mammon" is the god they serve; which word may well be thought to answer to Pluto, the god of riches, among the Heathens. The Jews, in Christ's time, were notorious for the love of "mammon"; and they themselves own, that this was the cause of the destruction of the second temple: the character they give of those, who lived under the second temple, is this:
"we know that they laboured in the law, and took care of the commandments, and of the tithes, and that their whole conversation was good; only that they אוהבין את הממון, "loved the mammon", and hated one another without a cause (b).''
(w) Praefat. Celi Jaker, fol. 3. 1. (x) Piske Tosephot Cetubot, art. 359. (y) Vid. Targum Onkelos & Jon. in Gen. xiii. 13. & in Jud. v. 19. & in Prov. iii. 9. & in Isa. xlv. 13. & passim. (z) Misn. Sanhed. c. 1. sect. 1. & c. 4. sect. 1. (a) Adv. Haeres. l. 3. c. 8. p. 249. (b) T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 38. 3.
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.(Joh 3:6) That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.(Joh 3:7) Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.(Joh 3:8) The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.(Joh 3:9) Nicodemus answered and said to Him, How are these things able to occur?(Joh 3:10) Jesus answered and said to him, You are the teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things?.
The new birth is the beginning of a new life for the believer. We turn from our former sinful ways (thru repentance) and change our way of living ( having been converted)
(Rom 10:8) But what does it say? "The Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the Word of faith which we proclaim) Deuteronomy 30:12-14.(Rom 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.(Rom 10:10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame." Isa. 28:16
We die to the old life of sin, are buried with Christ in the baptism of his death and raised with in Him to "walk in the newness of life" ( a new relationship with God) We are therefore challenge to live holy lives through Jesus the Christ and not thru any tradition of any man.
(Rom 12:1) Therefore, brothers, I call on you through the compassions of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.(Rom 12:2) And be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Pio.
And I have been told here that my Church teaches NO truth. Is this not Truth?
I did not see that statement but I know that Catholics teach a lot of the truth. So do most cults. It is the false teaching they mix in with it that is wrong.
Galatians 5:9 (KJV)
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Yes it is true that Protestants and Catholics affirm the same
beliefs about Jesus’ nature, death, burial, and resurrection.
BUT it is what they add that is the problem, below are some of them:
Tradition: Tradition refers to teachings of the apostles
that Catholics believe have been preserved in the Church
apart from the Bible. “This living transmission, accomplished
in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is
distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected
to it” (CCC, no. 78). Catholics view Tradition
as an authority equal to the Bible (CCC,
no. 82).
Teaching Ministry of the Church (Magisterium):
Catholics believe that their bishops (in communion with
the pope) have been given the task of authentically
interpreting both the Bible and Tradition. This task “has been
entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church
alone” (CCC, no. 85). According to the CCC, “The faithful
receive with docility the teachings and directives that
their pastors give them in different forms” (CCC, no. 87).
The teaching ministry of the Church (Magisterium) is
also considered equal in authority to the Bible and
Tradition. According to Catholicism, the Bible, sacred
Tradition, and the teaching authority of the Church “are
so connected and associated that one of them cannot
stand without the others” (CCC, no. 95).
Mary: Catholics believe that Mary “was totally preserved
from the stain of original sin and she remained
pure from all personal sin throughout her life” (CCC, no.
508). Catholics teach that Mary remained a virgin
throughout her life. They also believe that at the end of
her life she “was taken up body and soul into heavenly
glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things”
(CCC, no. 966). Catholics refer to Mary as “the Holy
Mother of God” (CCC, no. 975). They view her as a
comediator of God’s grace and as a collaborator with the
salvation of Jesus her Son (CCC, nos. 510, 973).
According to Pope Paul VI, “The Church’s devotion to
the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship”
(CCC, no. 971).
Response: Mary should be honored as a godly woman
who was faithful to God. The Scriptures teach the virgin
conception and birth of Jesus (Matt. 1:20-25). Unlike
Catholic dogma, the Bible does not teach that Mary
remained a virgin throughout her life (Ps. 69:8; Matt.
12:46; 28:10; Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; John 7:3). Nor does
the Bible indicate that Mary was conceived without original
sin or that she was bodily ascended into heaven (Luke
1:47). The Bible does not refer to Mary as the Holy
Mother of God. The offering of adoration and prayers to
Mary (and to other saints) is both unscriptural and wrong
(Dan. 3:16-18; Rev. 19:10; 22:8-9).
Sacraments: There are seven sacraments in the
Catholic Church: baptism, confirmation, Eucharist,
penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony.
“The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments
by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the
head throughout the Church which is his Body” (CCC,
no. 774). Catholics believe that the sacraments actually
“confer the grace that they signify” (CCC, no. 1127) and
that their ordained priesthood “guarantees that it really is
Christ who acts in the sacraments” (CCC, no. 1120). For
believers, the sacraments of the Catholic Church “are
necessary for salvation” (CCC, no. 1129).
Baptism: “The faithful are born anew by Baptism”
(CCC, no. 1212). “Through Baptism we are freed from
sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of
Christ” (CCC, no. 1213). Catholics baptize their children
shortly after birth. “The Church and the parents would
deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of
God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth”
(CCC, no. 1250). Catholics teach that “Baptism is necessary
for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been
proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking
for this sacrament” (CCC, no. 1257). “By Baptism all
sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as
well as all punishment for sin” (CCC, no. 1263).
Confirmation: Confirmation completes baptismal
grace by increasing the gifts and strengths of the Holy
Spirit in the recipient (CCC, no. 1303). It is usually done
by the bishop when a child reaches “the age of discretion”
(CCC, no. 1307).
Eucharist (Mass): “The Eucharist [or communion] is
‘the source and summit of the Christian life’” (CCC, no.
1324). Catholics maintain that the miracle of
transubstantiation takes place during the Eucharist.
In this sacrament, they believe that there occurs “a change of the
whole substance of the bread into the substance of the
body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of
the wine into the substance of his blood” (CCC, no.
1376). By receiving the Eucharist, Catholics believe they
are receiving Christ.
Penance (Confession): Penance is the sacrament of
reconciliation. In the sacrament, the sinner confesses all
mortal sins to a priest. The priest imposes acts of penance
and offers forgiveness of sin. “Indeed bishops and priests,
by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the
power to forgive all sins” (CCC, no. 1461). According to
Catholics, this sacrament reconciles one with God (CCC,
no. 1468) and obtains “forgiveness of sins committed
after Baptism” (CCC, no. 1486).
Anointing of the Sick (Formerly known as Extreme
Unction): Only priests and bishops can give this sacrament,
using oil blessed by the bishop (CCC, no. 1530).
The sacrament may be given when a Catholic is in danger
of death because of illness or old age (CCC, no. 1527).
Holy Orders: Catholics believe this sacrament confers
sacred power for service (CCC, no. 1592). There are
three degrees of Holy Order. The highest is that of bishop,
then priest (presbyter), and then deacon. “Without the
bishop, presbyters, and deacons, one cannot speak of the
Church” (CCC, no. 1593). Women may not receive this
ordination (CCC, no. 1577). The pope is the bishop of
Rome. Catholics believe that he has “full, supreme, and
universal power over the whole Church” (CCC, no. 882).
Matrimony: Catholics believe the sacrament of matrimony
“gives spouses the grace to love each other with
the love with which Christ has loved his Church” (CCC,
no. 1661). Remarriage by a divorced Catholic while the
lawful spouse is alive is not allowed (CCC, no. 1665).
The Catholic Church, however, frequently grants annulments
in which remarriage is allowed.
Response: The Bible does not teach a sacramental
theology. What counts with God is genuine love, not ritual
(Gal. 5:6). God does not use sacraments to convey
grace to humanity. This is why Paul can write that baptism
is not part of the gospel (1 Cor. 1:17). There is only
one mediator between God and humanity and that mediator
is the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 9:15). Since
Jesus is easily approachable, there is no need for any
mediator between humanity and Jesus (Matt. 11:28-30).
Pio I suggest that you read the following about Salvation
in the New Testament. (Rom. 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 13;
John 3:16; Eph. 2:8-9.)
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - ROMANS 4:4-5
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something of which to boast, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, -Romans 4:1-5
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain? Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. -Galatians 3:1-7
GOOD WORKS ARE THE RESULT OF SALVATION, NOT THE REQUIREMENT
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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posted
Hi, Pio.
And I have been told here that my Church teaches NO truth. Is this not Truth?
Eden here:
Yes, that was truth. But would you say that the "majority" of the attendees in the Catholic Church are "Catholics" ONLY because they were "born" into a Catholic family and that the majority of Catholics are NOT bornagain Christians, like you seem to be?
I think what is being addressed to you, Pio, is some of the tenets that the Catholic Church holds and even encourages are things like Mary worship, saint worship, the rosary, purgatory, confession to a human priest instead of to Our Heavenly Priest, and so on.
To the extent that you hold some or a part of those "Catholic" non-Biblical views, to that extent will it be said to you that what you believe is, well, non-Biblical?
Be blessed.
Eden
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Pio
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Hmmmm. Unless I am a Jew that has converted to Christianity, It is not likely that I have ever done a work of the law.
The difference between work of law and faith are at least clear to me. Christ told us continue the last supper. Do this in memory of me. If we do this solely out of obedience without true faith (in Christ) then it is a work of the law, if we keep this commandment out of faith in Christ then it is a work of faith. this can go for many acts which Christ commanded. Go forth baptising all nations in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. is Baptism kept out of LAW or Faith?
quote:
Works of the flesh can be works of faith, but faith in self or faith in the things of this world or faith in Karma. Faith must be toward GOD.
The only works that will be standing in the judgment are works of the Spirit, which HE has wrought through us.
Works are evidence of the Spirit of GOD within us; yes they will be present as will be fruit of the Spirit, but only the works of the Spirit will stand the fire and works will not save us.
This is a good point. You are correct in your assesment of faith. I was writing from the standpoint of faith in Christ, and did not specify such. Very good catch it is important for us to be clear as to not misrepresent teaching.
quote:
I dont think that anyone here disagrees with you that faith is always accompanied by works.
That was the point I've been trying to get at. What I believe is what most Christians believe, but I've been told that I am completely wrong in ALL areas because of the Church I attend. And i have been told here that my Church teaches NO truth. Is this not Truth?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
quote:
since it seems no one will answer my two questions, I will procede.
Maybe you better repeat your question because I felt that I answered your questions.
quote:
As well it is important to identify, that works of the LAW and works of FAITH are not the same thing. We do not need works of the law to be justified, and we no not need works of the law for salvation. Salvation come only from the Grace of God brought by Calvary By Jesus Chrst. Works of Faith are neccessary, because they come from true faith. If there are no works of faith then the faith does not exist.
What is wrong with this? because no one here has said there is anything wrong, and it seems to me that you agree with me, yet, at the same time i am being told I am wrong.
Works of the law??? Hmmmm. Unless I am a Jew that has converted to Christianity, It is not likely that I have ever done a work of the law.
Works of faith? The Just shall live by faith in that everything that we do in this life had better be a work of faith. That which is not of faith is sin.
Those who were found righteous under the law are those who's works of obedience to the law were works of faith.
For the Christian there are works of the Spirit and works of the flesh.
Works will not save you. Period.
Works of the flesh no matter how good are still works of the flesh. They will burn.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Works of the flesh can be works of faith, but faith in self or faith in the things of this world or faith in Karma. Faith must be toward GOD.
The only works that will be standing in the judgment are works of the Spirit, which HE has wrought through us.
Works are evidence of the Spirit of GOD within us; yes they will be present as will be fruit of the Spirit, but only the works of the Spirit will stand the fire and works will not save us.
I dont think that anyone here disagrees with you that faith is always accompanied by works.
But again this is true of the heathen as well. I know a pagan woman who does much good works they accompany her faith in Karma and they will follow her to hell as she does not believe in Christ as her saviour.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pio
unregistered
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since it seems no one will answer my two questions, I will procede.
I do not find anything wrong with the post that were written. As well it is important to identify, that works of the LAW and works of FAITH are not the same thing. We do not need works of the law to be justified, and we no not need works of the law for salvation. Salvation come only from the Grace of God brought by Calvary By Jesus Chrst. Works of Faith are neccessary, because they come from true faith. If there are no works of faith then the faith does not exist.
What is wrong with this? because no one here has said there is anything wrong, and it seems to me that you agree with me, yet, at the same time i am being told I am wrong.
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Eden
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lonlesol said, "I am not quite sure if I understand your question but I do know one thing...if a person says that he has faith but does not show it with his actions, then his faith isn't true...faith and works do go together...one without the other is worth nothing..."
Eden here:
I was wondering, lonlesol, what are those actions that he who has faith has to show, please?
Be blessed.
Eden
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Pio
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Forgive me for not being in lately, but my server has been messed up. Can you do me a favor, Please re-read the three post immediately previoous to this one. I need to ask some questions
1)Is anything stated by these posts wrong?
2)Are works of the LAW and works of FAITH the same thing?
after a response I can continue, because I think your ears are not open to what I am trying to say.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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posted
Once Upon A Time, In a far away place there lived a Mother and her daughter. Her daughter loved to greet people, but her Mother did no such thing. The daughters name is Anna Belle and her mother's name is Teacher. Anna Belle when she was in her class room at home, would listen intently to the teacher. The teacher told her that God has two important rules and both have Charity. The first golden rule, the Teacher said 1- Love the Lord your God with all your body, soul and mind 2- Love your neighbor as you would yourself. In the context of their converstiona. The teacher taught Love through action and the student learned love in giving. Anna Belle asked her Teacher, Can I give my heart to the lady next door. The teacher said,If you do- You would die if you did. The teacher said that sometimes God says to give of things that are good while maintaining our health and the other thing is God would not want us to hurt ourselves even it meant to show love to another. Anna Belle understood that she has to do something to show her neighbor that she loved her. So Anna Belle walked over and gave her the most prized possesion she had. That was her bible and in it she left a picture of a heart as well. Anna Belle wrote," My Teacher, my mom said I shouldn't give my heart, but this one would do, but Jesus my Friend gave his heart for you."
Three days a drift the 100 year old lady walked next door and told the Teacher "Anna Belle gave
me her heart and a love letter from God, Its been 70 years since I last prayed but today I began to live. God has shown me that he still cares for me. Today is the anniversary of my Love long since past.
The elderly Lady told the Teacher. I have been told many things, but not many have ever given of themselves like Anna Belle has. What is your name dear Teacher the elder Lady did asked.
The teachers said, Well I am Anna Belle's mother. The best thing I ever taught her is to give a gift of love and Jesus too. The mother's name is Mary. Guess what Anna Belle's dad does. He is a carpenter and has an adopted son named Yeshua too. Faith without works stinks and without Jesus is dead. Faith that works is Jesus that is given!
September 19
Morning
“The liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free.”
- Gal_5:1
This “liberty” makes us free to heaven’s charter-the Bible. Here is a choice passage, believer, “When thou passest through the rivers, I will be with thee.” You are free to that. Here is another: “The mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed, but my kindness shall not depart from thee”; you are free to that. You are a welcome guest at the table of the promises. Scripture is a never-failing treasury filled with boundless stores of grace. It is the bank of heaven; you may draw from it as much as you please, without let or hindrance. Come in faith and you are welcome to all covenant blessings. There is not a promise in the Word which shall be withheld. In the depths of tribulations let this freedom comfort you; amidst waves of distress let it cheer you; when sorrows surround thee let it be thy solace. This is thy Father’s love-token; thou art free to it at all times. Thou art also free to the throne of grace. It is the believer’s privilege to have access at all times to his heavenly Father. Whatever our desires, our difficulties, our wants, we are at liberty to spread all before him. It matters not how much we may have sinned, we may ask and expect pardon. It signifies nothing how poor we are, we may plead his promise that he will provide all things needful. We have permission to approach his throne at all times-in midnight’s darkest hour, or in noontide’s most burning heat. Exercise thy right, O believer, and live up to thy privilege. Thou art free to all that is treasured up in Christ-wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. It matters not what thy need is, for there is fulness of supply in Christ, and it is there for thee. O what a “freedom” is thine! freedom from condemnation, freedom to the promises, freedom to the throne of grace, and at last freedom to enter heaven!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Pio I truly believe that you are NOT trying to be antagonistic. I believe that you do not understand how to reconcile the sciptures with what I have said. But the scriptures must be reconciled. And what I have said is also scriptural.
I have no problem what so ever with the scriptures you posted above before my post. Just as you do not get how you reconcile ones like this with your beliefs..
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All the scripture must reconcile and not contradict, or our understanding of it is in error.
You ask how this one is reconciled with the truth that says it is by the blood alone that we are justified.
(Rom 2:13 ESV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Hearers are not just. But doers shall be justified. The law is done in the heart before it is ever manifest in the body.
This scripture does not contradict that nor the ones above that say that it is by the blood alone and not my works that man is justified.
This scripture simply says that those who will be justified are those who are doers and not just hearers.
Justification ensures that works meet with faith are coming. Here is why:
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This is again GOD's work... GOD sanctifies us. God is author and finisher of our faith. Because I am justified, and Sanctified, and God has given to me the mind of Christ, the Holy Spirit indwelling, the new creatrue born of GOD... I have ceased from my own works and entered HIS rest, and there I no longer live, but the life I live in the flesh is HID in HIM and I live it by faith, and the SPirit of GOD that is within me and seals me BLAMELESS, Body, SOul and Spirit unto the day of redemption, is working always in me to will and to want what GOD wills and wants and transforming me into the image of the SON, and thus there will be works because CHRIST is living and working.
In the born again child of God the law is written in the heart and obedience is a given... not because our flesh has somehow now become able to do what flesh cannot do, but I am now abiding in CHRIST and HE in ME and WE in the Father and the Father in US.
It is the very freedom that comes from being fully justified that I can now rest from trying to save myself and live unto GOD with all my mind body soul and spirit and I do not have to mind the things of the flesh but can mind the things of the spirit. It will never be my flesh that pleases GOD.
We work because we are saved, not so that we can be saved. If there is no works, it is because there is no faith and thus no salvation.
If we no longer live but HE lives in us, there wil l be works guaranteed, because HE is working in us.
Thus Peter says:
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Paul says:
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Pio:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The Blood of Christ ALONE is the basis for God's justification and sanctification of the sinner. The justification of the sinner is a judicial act by GOD ALONE. Faith is the vehicle or the instrument in which the soul aprehends the declaration that God has made which says that a man's sin is credited to the account of Christ who has paid the debt in full and Christ's righteousness is credited to the account of the sinner and the sinner is now wholly righteous. God's justification absolutely ensures that works will happen. Works do not ensure that justification or sanctification will happen or even has happened because men are capable of dead works.
I understand what you are saying, but how then do you reconcile this scripture?
(Rom 2:13 ESV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Justification here does not seem to fit in with what you have stated. How can the Blood of Christ ALONE be the justification when the scripture enumerates the doers of the law. I'm not trying to antagonistic, really.
Again, Linda is telling the truth, doing the law is God's righteousness, and righteousness is good fruit that is necessary to bear, not good works.
Matthew 7:19 (King James Version)
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Philippians 1:11 (King James Version)
"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."
There is no way that anyone could bear the fruit of righteousness without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ because sanctification and justification is obtained through his blood.
No one can be sanctified, no one can bear good fruit, no one can be justified without the blood of Jesus Christ.
The Blood of Christ ALONE is the basis for God's justification and sanctification of the sinner.
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Pio
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The Blood of Christ ALONE is the basis for God's justification and sanctification of the sinner. The justification of the sinner is a judicial act by GOD ALONE. Faith is the vehicle or the instrument in which the soul aprehends the declaration that God has made which says that a man's sin is credited to the account of Christ who has paid the debt in full and Christ's righteousness is credited to the account of the sinner and the sinner is now wholly righteous. God's justification absolutely ensures that works will happen. Works do not ensure that justification or sanctification will happen or even has happened because men are capable of dead works.
I understand what you are saying, but how then do you reconcile this scripture?
(Rom 2:13 ESV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Justification here does not seem to fit in with what you have stated. How can the Blood of Christ ALONE be the justification when the scripture enumerates the doers of the law. I'm not trying to antagonistic, really.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Originally posted by Pio:
Seriously,
(Joh 9:3-5 ESV) Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
(Jam 2:14 ESV) What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
(Jam 2:17 ESV) So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
(Jam 2:18 ESV) But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(Jam 2:20 ESV) Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
(Jam 2:21 ESV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
(Jam 2:22 ESV) You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
(Jam 2:23 ESV) and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
(Jam 2:24 ESV) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(Jam 2:25 ESV) And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
(Jam 2:26 ESV) For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
(Rom 2:13 ESV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Aww, you cut out the most important part of the passage, Pio.
I notice that James 2:15-16 is missing.
James 2:15-16 (King James Version)
"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?"
This is why faith without works is dead.
If you see your old starving sister naked on the street who can't even afford clothes or food, If she comes to you needy while you are carrying bags of clothes and food, what do you do? Do you just say, "Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled" and give her nothing, no food or clothes? What is that? What does that profit? Having faith that the woman would be warmed and fed is not enough. That is not a display of faith.
A faithful person, having faith that the old woman would be warmed and fed would have indeed fed and clothed that woman with those things that they had on hand.
But works such as these cannot save a person.
This person can be doing works such as these for their own glory, which would make them "bad works". Also, this person can be doing works such as these for the glory of God the Father, which would make them "good works".
Works can be either good or bad, they can have either the right or wrong motive.
Works with the wrong motive glorify you… bad works are burned in the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:15 (King James Version)
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
***
…And works with the right motive glorify God the Father…good works endure the fire, and are rewarded.
Matthew 5:16 (King James Version)
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
1 Corinthians 3:14 (King James Version)
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."
***
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
So works do not save us.
But we all must bare good fruit.
Matthew 7:19 (King James Version)
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Good fruit is just good; they are qualities of a person that are line with the word of God.
Galatians 5:22 (King James Version)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,"
***
Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
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helpforhomeschoolers
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The Blood of Christ ALONE is the basis for God's justification and sanctification of the sinner. The justification of the sinner is a judicial act by GOD ALONE. Faith is the vehicle or the instrument in which the soul aprehends the declaration that God has made which says that a man's sin is credited to the account of Christ who has paid the debt in full and Christ's righteousness is credited to the account of the sinner and the sinner is now wholly righteous. God's justification absolutely ensures that works will happen. Works do not ensure that justification or sanctification will happen or even has happened because men are capable of dead works.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pio
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How does Justification work into Salvation in your model becauseHElives?
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Pio
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Acording to my faith, which is constantly bombarded with post that are negative about it, and I'm not allowed to teach. I am taught and believe the same thing you just posted. I state it as we are saved by Grace through faith and shown by our works. However i am always told that my faith is wrong. With that in mind I thought I would give the people who say I'm wrong to explain what is right. So far my faith is being unjustly persecuted at least on this subject.
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becauseHElives
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They mean when the heart is changed by the new birth through the Blood of Yeshua, Yahweh give the believer the grace (the power and the ability to live the same life as Yeshua lived by the agency of the Holy Spirit (keeping the Commandment of Yahweh).
Accomplishing what was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 33:31…
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Thing we must remember is that the keeping of the Commandment add nothing to the Salvation purchased by Yeshua’s Blood, keeping the Commandment only confirms if the new birth has taken place.
Because I do not hold to the “Once Saved Always Saved “view point of Salvation. I believe once you are saved you are washed clean from that point, everything in your past is under the Blood, forgiven and forgotten. But from that point forward you have need to have your feet washed (not the whole body) by confessing any future sin after the new birth to the Heavenly Father in Yeshua’s name.
! John 2: …….
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him………
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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lonlesol
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I am not quite sure if I understand your question but I do know one thing...if a person says that he has faith but does not show it with his actions, then his faith isn't true...faith and works do go together...one without the other is worth nothing...
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Pio
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Seriously,
(Joh 9:3-5 ESV) Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
(Jam 2:14 ESV) What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
(Jam 2:17 ESV) So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
(Jam 2:18 ESV) But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(Jam 2:20 ESV) Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
(Jam 2:21 ESV) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
(Jam 2:22 ESV) You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
(Jam 2:23 ESV) and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
(Jam 2:24 ESV) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(Jam 2:25 ESV) And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
(Jam 2:26 ESV) For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
(Rom 2:13 ESV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
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