|
Author
|
Topic: Rapture
|
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
|
posted
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event.
Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4).
This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half.
Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation.
The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Pio said:
"The Rapture is something I have always found to be vaguely supported by the scriptures at best. So my question is what is the biblical evidence for the rapture, and do you believe in a post or pre tribulation rapture?"
Eden here: The Biblical evidence,
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Do you think that is "vaguely supported"?
I believe that the rapture and the Second Coming will happen at the same time, which would make me "post" tribulation.
Be blessed.
Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Pio: I am sorry that you see this place as hostile. I have been here for a number of years now and I do NOT know this place to be a desert of Charity. Far from it. These people that you see as hostile are people who I personally know to be very kind and loving. People who would be there to pray with you or for you at the drop of a hat or at 3:00 AM. I am not alone in saying this, but many of them have been with me through births and deaths and sicknesses and job losses and moves and good times and bad times and have been faithful friends, encouraging and supportive and prayerful.
The reason that you see us as uncharitable is that you came here with an agenda to defend Catholicism against what you see as misrepresentation. Most of the old timers and regulars here and the owner of this board and myself as well do not view Catholicism as a "Christian Denomination." we certainly do not view the Roman Church as the One True Church. Many of us do not even consider ourselves to be protestants and do not subscribe to protestant denominations ourselves because we see that there is still too much Catholicism in Protestantism. Many of us a greatly troubled that the world sees her as "the church" or as Christian.
This does not mean that we have no love for the people that are members of the Roman Church, actually quite the contrary. We love them deeply which is why we so very much would love to see them come to know the Bible Truth in contrast to the Roman Church's doctrines, dogma, and traditions that are contrary to scripture. We all know that there may well be Born again saints of God in the Roman church, but we believe that GOd calls them out of her.
There is likely nothing that you can say to any of us regarding Catholicism that we have not heard or do not already know. Most of us are very well versed in Christian apologetics and have been through these discussions that you bring hundreds of times.
There is no fellowship the Bible says between light and darkness. Most of us see Catholicism as darkness, perhaps the darkest kind of darkness because it comes masquerading as light... as Christian. If you come as the voice of that darkness then I think you should expect opposition.
If you were a vegan and I came into your home bringing a 1/2 a slab of beef and plopped it down on your kitchen counter and proceded to tell you that you were wrong and totally misunderstoof about beef as I began flay it open and prepared to cook it in your pans, I might expect you to respond in what might seem to be a hostile manner would you not think? It might not be that you are hostile at all, but that you are about to barf, or it may just be that you are tired and you have just spent the last month cleaning and now your gonna have to get the smell of beef out of your house and you are not looking forward to it. Who knows, but surely you would not expect me to get the pans out and show you where the knives are.
We are like Vegans here.. we dont eat Roman doctrine, dogma, or tradition, and you come into our home with a big slab of it to serve us. Our offence is not really at you, but at that smelly bloody corrupt slab of beef your carrying, and frankly we dont get how you can continue to lug it around with ya. Why dont ya take it outside and come back in and we will pour you a cup of tea?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
Shadow,
I agree that it is a SHAME that Priest need money to offer the sacraments for the people. The part that you probably don't know is that in those countries the priest do not recieve a salary from the Church, the only money the get is what they can get from the people. I am not saying that this is correct, but it gives a different perspective, than those of missionaries who have people giving them money from a sponsoring Church.
IP: Logged |
|
|
shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pio:
Kindgo, I didn't mean to ignore you, I think I just looked over your two post in more anxiety than anything. This environment is extremely hostile, and it is difficult to deal with. All i want is if someone is going to hate my faith they do it for real reasons, not false acusations,, based on false understanding of what I believe, but it seems nobody here cares about the TRUTH.
Pio there are certain people here that sadly when you disagree with them and they cant prove you wrong, they question your faith. If you re searching for the truth, some you just have to overlook.
Esp 2:8-9
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But I do agree that Catholics are on the wrong path. The Catholic church just isnt Christian. Say what they want but they are worshipping the Saints, which is a big no no. Purgaotry, confessing to a priest, etc, just isnt supported. I was in Lima, Peru last summer, which is a big Catholic country. The church wont help unless you have money. You have to buy a Bible. We gave out 5000 Bibles to people who were too poor to buy one and had never seen a Bible. Why doesnt the Catholic church give away a Bible? Priest will pray relatives into heaven for the right amount of money. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) You have these million dollar churches, fancy statues, craving, robes and gowns but they cant or wont pass out a Bible. ???I could go on and on but the Catholic church is just corrupt. We had the luxury of an ex-catholic to go with us and explain things. We went to a huge Catholic church just so we could see things.
Heres something for you to read about whether you are saved or not Pio.
http://www.carm.org/catholic/saved.htm Theres some other stuff there too. The guy that runs the site, if you find something that isnt correct, contact him and if hes wrong he ll change it.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
Kindgo, I didn't mean to ignore you, I think I just looked over your two post in more anxiety than anything. This environment is extremely hostile, and it is difficult to deal with. All i want is if someone is going to hate my faith they do it for real reasons, not false acusations,, based on false understanding of what I believe, but it seems nobody here cares about the TRUTH.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
|
posted
Well, I did take my time to answer your question.
I didn't see a reply to the scriptures I posted for you?????
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
HopeForHomeschoolers: It is not that I mind LONG post it is that I do not take kindly to an insult of a long CUT n' PASTE post. All of my post are original words coming from my mind based on the knowledge I have accumulated over time. I take it as a sign of respect to think over a post and write and appropriate response. When someone cut n' paste a post every time in response to a "custom" post I worked on then it shows a lack of respect to me as an individual and to my individual personhood as a unique creation of God. I've done this enough I can generally recognize Cut n' paste vs. Original, your post seems pretty original, and I will read it several times here before I post any further inquires, thank-you for being the first to acually answer a sincer question, my God bless you in this desert of charity.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Pio, from my personal study of the scriptures and History of the Church, I do not believe it possible to be Saved and a Roman Catholic.
Truly I can not judge your heart and know for certain if you are saved, but for me not to warn you to flee from the Roman Catholic System would be a sin for me. I do not want your blood on my hands on judgment day.
I am sincere when I say; I hope to see you in eternity. For I would not which the eternal fires of Hell on anyone.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
I do not doubt your sincerity, however the statement you made make it logical for the following argument to be made.
1)Salvation is a free gift from God, and works play no part of it.
2)If you belong to the wrong church (work)despite your heart felt faith then you will still go to hell
So Salvation can be LOST because of works? That is the logical position you have taken up. So our works in no way shows our faith, and God won't look at our fruits, but God will look at a lack of Fruits and damn? Your position is confusing and muddled with errors.
IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I believe that there will be a pre-Daniels 70th week rapture for the BRIDE of CHRIST because I see it all through the scripture.
This is long, and I know that from your other posts you are not fond of long posts, but this subject I believe is covered throughout the Bible and so I do not know how to explain this in any shorter manner. Hopefully, you will read it all and read it prayerfully that the Spirit will tell you if there is something here or I am just fruity. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
The people that Moses delivered out of Egypt were called the "church" in the wilderness.Acts 7:38; I believe that in many ways they are a prophetic picture in the Natural of the Spiritual NT Church that we are part of. For example:
1. Egypt is seen as the land of sin.. of the heathen. Egypt is a Typology of this World of whom Satan is god.
A.) the new testiment church has been delivered out of sin, passed through the Red Sea of Christ's blood, based on the covenant God made with Abraham, entered our own covenant with GOD at Pentecost.
2. Pharoah is likened to Satan - as is The King od Sodom.. the King of Tyre... Pharioah is a "typology of Satan"
B.)Pharaoh saw himself as a god. Satan sees himself as a god. We are no longer under bondage to him... not any longer owing servitude to him, and yet he persues us, but in the end, God will destroy him and his minions as GOd did destroy Pharaoh and his army.
3. The people took spoil (borrowed) of Egypt when they left that would be consumed and used by them in the wilderness. They wandered in the wilderness for 40 years on their way to the promised land. They lived during those 40 years in the lands that were not their own, and they had they been obeident were to be a living witness to the heathen that the GOd of Abraham was GOD.
b.) When we come out of the world, we bring the world's goods with us and we use them for our walk through this wilderness and the lands that are not our own for we are citizens of heaven. These things are borrowed and we will not take them with us into the promised land - the heavenly Jerusalem. Here like the Hebrews we are strangers in the land.
There is more, but that is part of the rest of the story...
First, I see the coming pre-Daniel's 70th week rapture of the BRIDE of Christ, in the study of the feasts and fasts of God. GOd does every thing that he does at a very exact and appointed time. The first coming of Christ was at an appointed time, the 2nd will be also.
Paul said that the feasts were a "shadow" of things to come and in fact, we see that the nations will come to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles in the 1000 year reign.
Each of the Feasts & fasts have agricultural significance and prophetic Messianic significance. Each of them speaks to some part of Christ's life. Some of them (the first 4)have been prophetically fulfulled by Christ and 3 are yet to be.
Christ was born at the time of Tabernacles;(the word was made flesh and tabernacled among us) Christ was crucified at the Passover; Christ was in the grave on Unleavenend Bread, Christ was risen on FirstFruits.
I believe that Christ will return for the church at a specific time that is related to the fulfilment of the next feast.
First in order to get this, we have to understand that God is not finished with Israel the nation. The scripture tells us that the eyes of Israel have been blinded until the fulness of the gentiles comes in.
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Now we go Daniel and we see that a specific period of time has been determined on the nation of Israel and on the city of Jerusalem....
Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression,(Me: "the trangression of the Gentiles against them and her.") and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
God has promised in the end to avenge the Nation and the City. This is not yet finished. The 70 week is yet to come. The interval between the 69th and 70th week is the time appointed to the church age and the trampling of Jerusalem and the Nation of Israel because of thier own inequity...
Now, the unblinding of Israel.
When Jesus came he came John said "the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world." Crucified at Passover, HE is known as the Passover Lamb. But the Passover Lamb does not take away sin.
Sin is taken away, by the High Priest who places it on the head of the live scapegoat and sends it off out of the camp into the wilderness. This occurs for the NATION - ON THE DAY OF ATONEMENT...Not on Passover.
Christ purged the sin that he carried for us in the grave, placing it on the head of Satan. (This speaks to the scripture that says he will brusie your head and you will brusie his heel.) The sins of of Adam and the sins of the JUST are placed on Satan's head where they belong by the High Priest Jesus and eventually Satan will be sent to the lake of fire.
When Christ comes.. Israel the nation will know that he is the HIGH Priest and that the work was done in 31 AD and they have suffered loss all this time for not knowing this because HE will return WITHOUT SIN. They will only in this late time know that HE is their High Priest.
ROmans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The Passover Lamb was sacrificed first in Egypt and the blood was used to mark the homes of the Hebrews before GOD delivered them out of Egypt so that they would not be smited with the plagues that God was about to bring on Egypt. At this point, God had not yet confirmed the covenant with the Hebrews in Egypt, but had remembered them, because of the covenant that HE had with their Faithers... Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. They would cross the Red Sea in 3 days and in 50 days, they would get their own Covenant at Sinai.
When Jesus said to the disciples, eat my flesh and drink my blood, he was explaining that HE was the passover Lamb sacrificed for them. His blood would cover them until God would establish HIS new covenant with them at Pentecost (50 days later).
As stated earlier, Jesus would be in the tomb on Unleavened bread, symbolizing the purging of the sins of the people that he carried to the grave. He would then Rise on First Fruits - On First Fruits, the HIGH Priest presented a sheave of Barley the first fruits of the Barley Harvest. Jesus presented himself as firstfruits to God when he ascended to HIS Father to be glorified before going to meet with the Disciples.
50 days later comes Pentecost. Pentecost is a harvest celebration. The first harvest of the seasons are completed. At this time the church was born. The Bible says that 3000 souls were harvested that day.
Now there is a long period (3) months until the next feast - this is the church age.
Now, the fall festivals are yet prophetically fulfilled. The Fall festivals are tied to the harvests of wheat, good figs, and olives.
The first of the fall festivals is the Feast of Trumpets. The feast of Trumpets is unique. It is the only feast which occurs of the first day of a new month and thus it is the ONLY feast in which no one knows the day or the hour that it will come. It comes on the first day of the 7th month. In ancient times, men watched the phases of the moon and when the first visable sliver of the new moon was seen by the naked eye, two witnesses would certify that the new month had begun and the Sanheidren would proclaim that beginning of the feast of Trumpets. On this day, there would be a trumpet sounded to announce the Holy Convocation.
Now, the month before this begins a time that was known as a time of repentance the season of "Teshuvah". This season begins on the first day of the month of Elul and continues 40 days, ending with Yom Kippur (the day of atonement) And each day of the month of Elul, a trumpet was sounded to remind the people that the days of awe were coming and they ought to repent before they find them selves in the days of awe.
SO on the Feast of Trumpets (incorrectly called Rosh Hashana) there would actually be 2 trumpet sounds.... the first one for the 30 or 31 day of the season of Teshuvah and the LAST Trump... a long awakening blast for the Feast of Trumpets.
I believe that the rapture of the church will occur at the Feast of Trumpets. I blelieve this for several reasons..
1. It is a 7 day festival season with the feast of trumpets being a long day that extends over 2 days and a period of 7 days between the Last Trump and the Day of Atonement. (10 days total - the last 10 days of the 40 day season of Israel's repentacne)
2. It is the ONLY appointed time in which no one knows the day nor the hour. This is even more so today becuase of the changes that have been made to the calendar. Further, today, there is only one group that I am aware of that is still keeping the feast of Trumpets in the old way, by the visual observation of the first sliver of the new moon, and this is the Karite Jews, who are a group of Jews that do not follow the Talmud, but the Torah.
3. This begins for Israel the time of the coming Day of Atonement in which the sins of the nation are atoned for by the High Priest. I will talk more of this later.
4. The Jewish idioms "Last Trump" "No one knows the day or the hour" "10 days trial" all are associated with this period.
5. Further, the Jewish understanding of the Messiah and salvation and the life to come are very different than ours. This is in part their failure (even of the Apostles in the beginning) to understand when Christ was coming to establish an earthly kingdom.
First we need to understand in Judaism, each man was the priest of his own home. He made sin offerings to GOD regularly as well as peace offerings food and drink offereings etc. But it was on the Day of Atonement that the High Priest made atonement for the sins of the Nation.
(for us who are joined with Christ in body and in marriage and in brotherhood being believers, Christ is also the preist of our home and has made peace offering for us and sin offering)(this is an individual offering as opposed to the offering made for the nation)
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The Jews believed that everyone who was the seed of Abraham and was circumcised and was by this guaranteed to rise in the resurrection. They did not believe that the unrighteous rose.
They also believed that some were wholly righteous. The wholly righteous entered Paradise at the time of their deaths.
Most were only partly righteous, and when they died, they would have to wait in punishment until the next opening of the books in heaven when they could be written in among the righteous.
So, on the feast of trumpets the books are opened and the not so righteous dead, who died since the last day of atonement are written in the among the righteous and received into heaven and they gates are closed. Then among the living... they now go through the days of awe and have the opportunity to repent, and to do good deeds and to change their status before the Day of atonement when the books are sealed for another year.
Now, of course Jesus put the Kabosh so to speak on their errored ideas of passing over with the parable that he told in Luke 16. He explained that at the time of your death you either found yourself in Paradise (abraham's Bosom) or you found your self in the flames of ghenna and there was no crossing over. Jesus also taught that there would be a resurrection of the just AND the unjust. However, Jesus did not correct their thinking that the days of awe and repentance could determin one's righteousness or the righteousness of the NATION on the day of atonement. In fact, Jesus speaks of a 10 day trial for the church of Smyrna.
My point on this #5 here is this:
The 70th week of Daniel is for Daniel's people and for the city of Jerusalem. it is not about the Bride of Christ. It is about the repentance of Israel, their recognizing the atonement of their sins by Christ and HE as THEIR HIGH PRIEST, and his determination of their standing in the year of Jubilee that is the 1000 yr reign and HIS wrath on the world and those that have oppressed Israel and trodden down the Holy City.
The Bride of Christ is now on this earth as Christ is in heaven... WHOLLY righteous by the blood of the Lamb. We have put on Christ and HIS righteousness.
But Israel that was blinded... their time of redemption is Daniel's 70th week.
When Christ came, he came as the Passover Lamb. We know also from the Letter to the Hebrews that HE is the HIGH Priest of the Day of Atonement, and that he carried HIS OWN blood, not the blood of Goats and Bulls to the Mercy Seat, but HIS own... God's Lamb... but this was explained the the Hebrews in the Church, by Paul... it was not openly manifest by Christ to the world or even to the Jews that Christ was the High Priest. Only Paul revealed this and only to the Hebrews in the Church, no other place in NT scripture speaks of Jesus being the High Priest... not even in John's revelation.
Christ is coming back the Lion of the Tribe of Judah who will establish God's Kingdom on earth and cause Israel to reign over the nations for 1000 years, but he is also coming back the High Priest of Israel who is as a nation Blinded at this time.
Paul explains:
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Paul has been explaining the Sabbath Rest.. a limited day that was a day of rest that prophesied of the rest that we have entered in, but all have not entered in and so their remains for those a weekly Sabbath rest, but there is coming a time when they will also, if they remain not in unbelief enter in.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
There are so many things about the Feast of Trumpets that tell me this is the time of the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. There is no part for the Bride of Christ in Daniel's 70th week.
1. Before the Day of Atonement, the High Priest enters the Temple and remains there in preparation of the Day of Atonement for 7 days.
2. The feast of Trumpets is also called by the Jews the day of Judgement because it is the day the books are opened and judgement pronounced. The wholly righteous distinquished from the not so wholly righteous.
3. The period between the opening of the Feast of Trumpets and the end of this season of repentance on Yom Kippur (the day of atonement) is known as the days of Awe and it is a time to repent and do the works meet of repentance. In hopes that your fate might be changed before the books are sealed on Yom Kippur. Which is the purpose of the trial that will come upon Israel this 7 years that is Daniel's 70th week.
4. This is the time of Israel's redemption. The feast of Trumpets is the time of the opening of gates. If you reed Psalm 118 you get the picture of the Gates of Righteousness opening and the Righteous entering , and if you read Isaiah 26 you see the opening of the gates of Jerusalem and GOd's people coming in to her after she has been turned upside down by the enemy. This all speaks to the seasons that will be associated with the last 7 years, the rapture of the church and the restoration of Israel as a nation.
5. This season is also seen as the time for the coronation of Israel's kings. Christ is coming back as the King of all the earth's kingdoms to sit literally on David's Throne.
6. Lastly, it is at the end of this season on the day of Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement that the High Priest declares that the sacrifice for the nation is accepted and the nation's sins are forgiven and the nation is granted GOd's blessing for the time to come. It makes sense to me that this is the day of Christ's second coming.
Now, after Yom Kippur the next festival is the Tabernacles and if you read Micha 4, you see the day coming when the Lord Tabernacles again with his people and reigns over the nations from Jerusalem the nations gather to Jerusalem to learn of the ways of the Lord. This is also called the feast of ingathering and is a celebration of the completion of the fall harvests... it speaks prophetically of the coming 1000 year reign.
So, if this is correct we would see Christ fulfill the last 3 festival's of God's appointed times.. the feast of trumpets with the rapture of the church... this is opening of the books (His coming in clouds for the Bride); The Day of Atonement when Christ is the High Priest pronouncing the saving of Israel (His coming bodily to earth to establish the literal earthly kingdom); and lastly the festival of Tabernacles when He is again tabernacling with HIS people.(the 100 years of peace)
***********************************************
Now, up to this point I have talked a lot about Israel and other than the Bride of Christ being Wholly Righteous and having no need to go through the last 10 days of the season of repentance, the days of Awe that follow the feast of Trumpets or the Day of Atonement.
I would like to talk about her being a BRIDE.
First of all the Jewish wedding is a week long event. This again tells me that there will be a 7 year period that Christ is with the church and the church is not here.
We can see the fact that the Jewish wedding is a week long event here:
Ge 29:27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
Ge 29:28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
The scripture says that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us, and he will return for us. We also see the parable of the virgins where the bridegroom returns for the bride.
The wedding occurs in the father's house, by tradition and in fact it is the father that tells the son when the preparations are ready and for him to go and get the bride. The bride does not know when he is coming. She waits for him. There are many things of the tradition of Jewish weddings that speak to the Bride and Christ...
I have spent most of my day here trying to put all this in my words. I hope you wont mind if I copy and paste someone else's for this part: this shows what I am trying to share:
Rosh Hashanah: The Wedding of the Messiah
The Bible is a marriage covenant. Both the Tanach (Old Testament) and the Brit Hadashah (New Testament) describe how G-d through the Mashiach (Messiah), the Bridegroom, is in the process of marrying His bride, the believers in Him who will ultimately live and dwell with Him forever.
G-d ordained and established marriage and its divine sanctity in the Torah, the very first book of the Bible, Genesis (Bereishit), when He brought Adam and Eve together to become one flesh (Genesis 2:21-24). In doing so, we have a vivid foreshadowing of the Messiah being married to those who would believe upon Him. Let's examine this closer.
Adam is a type of the Messiah Yeshua. Adam was made after the likeness of Yeshua (Romans 5:14). Yeshua (Jesus) was made in the likeness of Adam (Philippians 2:8). In fact, Yeshua is called the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45-47). In Genesis 2:21, G-d had a deep sleep fall upon Adam. Sleep is synonymous with death (Daniel 12:2; John [Yochanan] 11:11-14; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; Ephesians 5:14). The deep sleep that G-d caused to fall upon Adam is a picture of the crucifixion and death of Yeshua, as Messiah ben Joseph. G-d brought a deep sleep upon Adam so He could take a rib from the side of his flesh. This required the shedding of blood. This is a picture of Yeshua who was pierced in the side of His flesh, shedding His own blood when He hung on the tree (John [Yochanan] 19:34).
From the rib of Adam, G-d made Eve. Likewise, by the death of Yeshua and faith (emunah) in Him, G-d established the assembly of believers known in Hebrew as the kehilat. The believers in the Messiah, His bride, become wedded to Him by faith (emunah). This marriage can be seen in the Tanach (Old Testament) as well as in Jeremiah 23:5-6, as it is written, .... this is His name whereby He shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Jeremiah [Yermiyahu] 23:6). In Jeremiah 33:15-16, it is written, "...this is the name wherewith she shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Jeremiah [Yermiyahu] 33:16). So from these passages in Jeremiah, we can see that a wedding is taking place. Therefore, by accepting, trusting, and believing in the Messiah, the bride of Messiah, His followers, become one with Him. These people would include both Jew and non-Jews who have lived since Adam and would include Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon as well as the prophets.
G-d gave the wedding customs, service, and ceremonies to the Jewish people (Romans 3:2; 9:4) to teach us about the Messiah Yeshua (Colossians 2:16-17). With this in mind, let's examine the biblical wedding ceremony that G-d gave to the Jewish people. The ancient Jewish wedding ceremony G-d gave to the Jewish people to teach us about the wedding of the Messiah consisted of 12 steps.
1. The selection of the bride.
The bride was usually chosen by the father of the bridegroom. The father would send his trusted servant, known as the agent of the father, to search out the bride. An excellent example of this can be seen in Genesis 24. In this chapter, Abraham (a type of G-d the Father) wishes to secure a bride for Isaac (a type of Messiah) and sends his servant Eliezer (a type of the Holy Spirit [Ruach HaKodesh]) to do this task (Genesis [Bereishit 24:2-4; 15:2). It is the role of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) to convict the world of sin and lead them to G-d (John [Yochanan] 16:7-8). Just as the bride was usually chosen by the father of the bridegroom, so the believers in the Messiah are chosen by G-d (John [Yochanan] 15:16). The bridegroom chose the bride and lavished his love upon her and she returned his love. This can be seen in Ephesians 5:25, as it is written, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself of it." In Genesis (Bereishit) 24, Rebekah (Rivkah) consented to marry Isaac (Yitzchak) even before she ever met him. Today, the believers in the Messiah Yeshua consent to become the bride of Messiah even though we have never seen Him. First Peter (Kefa) 1:8 speaks of this, as it is written, "Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory."
2. A bride price was established.
A price would have to be paid for the bride. The agreed upon price was called a mohar in Hebrew. Yeshua, being our bridegroom, paid a very high price for His bride, the body of believers. The price He paid was His life. Yeshua considered the price He had to pay for His bride before His death as He went into the Garden of Gethsemane to pray in Matthew (Mattityahu) 26:39, as it is written, "And He went a little farther, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." Yeshua was, in essence, saying, "Father, You have chosen this bride and I have agreed to the terms, but do you realize the price that is being asked for her?" Our mohar, our bride price, was His life. First Peter (Kefa) 1:18-19 says, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." In First Corinthians 6:20 it is written, "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
3. The bride and groom are betrothed to each other.
This is the first stage of marriage known as kiddushin. I have spoken at length of betrothal in Chapter 6, concerning Shavuot. Remember, betrothal is the first of two steps in the marriage process. Betrothal in Hebrew is known as erusin or kiddushin. Betrothal legally binds the bride and the groom together in a marriage contract, except they do not physically live together. Historically, G-d betrothed Himself to Israel at Mount Sinai (Jeremiah 2:2; Hosea 2:19-20). Whenever you accept the Messiah into your heart and life, you become betrothed to Him while living on the earth.
4. A written document is drawn up, known as a ketubah. This betrothal contract is called, in Hebrew, a shitre erusin.
The ketubah is the marriage contract that states the bride price, the promises of the groom, and the rights of the bride. The word ketubah means "that which is written." The groom promised to work for her, to honor, support, and maintain her in truth, to provide food, clothing, and necessities, and to live together with her as husband and wife. The ketubah was the unalienable right of the bride. The ketubah must be executed and signed prior to the wedding ceremony. The Bible is the believer's ketubah. All the promises that G-d provided for the believers in the Messiah are legally ours, as it is written in Second Corinthians 1:20, "For all the promises of God in Him are yea, and in Him Amen...."
5. The bride must give her consent.
As we saw in Chapter 6, which dealt with Shavuot (Pentecost), G-d betrothed Himself to Israel at Mount Sinai as stated in Jeremiah 2:2. Israel consented to the marriage proposal from G-d and said, "I do," as it is written in Exodus (Shemot) 24:3. Likewise, the personal application (halacha) to those who desire the Messiah to come into their hearts and lives is to accept His invitation to do so by faith (emunah), as it is written in Romans 10:8-10:
What, then, does it say? The Word is near you in your mouth and in your heart: that is the word about trust [emunah] which we proclaim, namely, that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered. For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgments and thus continues toward deliverance (Romans 10:8-10 Jewish New Testament Version).
So, even today, to become the bride of Messiah you must still say "I do" to Him.
6. Gifts were given to the bride and a cup called the cup of the covenant was shared between the bride and the groom.
The rite of betrothal (erusin) is completed when the groom gives something of value to the bride and she accepts it. The gift most often given today is the ring. When the groom places the ring on the bride's finger, the rite of betrothal is completed. This completed rite is known in Hebrew as kiddushin, which means "sanctification."
The gifts to the bride are symbols of love, commitment, and loyalty. The gift G-d gives to those who accept the Messiah is the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) (John [Yochanan] 14:26; 15:26-27; Acts 2:38; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22). When Yeshua ascended to Heaven, He gave gifts to men (Ephesians 4:7-8). These gifts included righteousness (Romans 5:17-18), eternal life (Romans 6:23), grace (Romans 5:12,14-15), faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), and other spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1,4). These included wisdom, knowledge, healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:8-11), as well as the gifts of helps and administration (1 Corinthians 12:28).
In addition, at this time the cup of the covenant was shared and sealed between the bride and the groom with the drinking of wine. In doing so, the couple drinks from a common cup. The cup is first given to the groom to sip, and then is given to the bride. This cup, known as the cup of the covenant, is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-33, as it is written:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people (Jeremiah [Yermiyahu] 31:31-33).
Yeshua spoke of the cup of the New Covenant (Brit Hadashah) in Luke 22:20.
7. The bride had a mikvah (water immersion), which is a ritual of cleansing.
Mikvah is a Hebrew word that means "pool" or "body of water." Mikvah is a ceremonial act of purification by the immersion in water. It indicates a separation from a former way to a new way. In the case of marriage, it indicates leaving an old life for a new life with your spouse (Genesis [Bereishit] 2:23-24; Ephesians 5:31). Immersing in the mikvah is considered spiritual rebirth. The reason is that a mikvah has the power to change a person completely. Concerning the marriage to Israel at Mount Sinai, G-d said in Ezekiel 16:8-9, as it is written, "...I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee... and thou becamest Mine. Then washed I thee with water...." The washing, or immersion, here refers to that of Israel before the people received the Torah when G-d betrothed Himself to Israel at Mount Sinai (Exodus [Shemot] 19:14-15). Yeshua spoke to the Pharisee, Nicodemus (Nakdimon), that he must be born anew (immersed) to enter into the Kingdom of G-d (John [Yochanan] 3:1-7). The believers in the Messiah are to be immersed in the name of Yeshua (Acts 19:4). The Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) is the immerser of G-d (Luke 3:16; Acts 1:5; 11:15-16).
8. The bridegroom departed, going back to his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber.
At this point, the bridegroom leaves for his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber for his bride. It was understood to be the man's duty to go away to be with his father, build a house, and prepare for the eventual wedding. Before he goes, though, he will make a statement to the bride. "I go to prepare a place for you; if I go, I will return again unto you." This is the same statement Yeshua made in John (Yochanan) 14:1-3 before He went to His father's house in Heaven, as it is written:
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Fathers' house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself that where I am, there ye may be also (John [Yochanan] 14:1-3).
9. The bride was consecrated and set apart for a period of time while the bridegroom was away building the house.
Before the bridegroom could go and get the bride, the groom's father had to be satisfied that every preparation had been made by the son. Only then could he give permission to the son to go and get the bride. In other words, while the bridegroom was working on the bridal chamber, it was the father who "okayed" the final bridal chamber. The bridegroom did not know when his father would declare the bridal chamber fit and send him to go get his bride. This is exactly what Yeshua was referring to in Mark 13:32-37.
Meanwhile, the bride was to wait eagerly for the return of the bridegroom. In the mind of the bride, the bridegroom could come at any time, even in the middle of the night or at midnight. Therefore, she had to be ready at all times. Yeshua referred to this in Mark 13:32-37 and Matthew 25:1-13. While waiting for her bridegroom to come, the bride had to have thought to herself, "Is he really coming back for me? Is he really going to keep his word?" This was the thought that Peter (Kefa) answered in Second Peter 3:1-13.
10. The bridegroom would return with a shout, "Behold, the bridegroom comes" and the sound of the ram's horn (shofar) would be blown.
The time of the return of the bridegroom was usually at midnight. When the bridegroom did come, he came with a shout (Matthew 25:6) and with the blowing of a shofar (trumpet) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 4:1). The marriage between the bride and the groom will take place under the chupah or wedding canopy. Since Heaven is a type of chupah, we can see that when Yeshua gives a shout for His bride, accompanied by the blowing of a shofar (trumpet), the marriage between Yeshua and His bride will take place in Heaven.
The marriage ceremony will have a sacred procession. For this reason, the bridegroom (Yeshua) will be led to the chupah first. When the bridegroom approaches the chupah, the cantor chants, "Blessed is he who comes." "Blessed is he who comes" is an idiomatic expression meaning "welcome." Yeshua said that He would not return for His bride until these words were said (Matthew 23:39). The groom is greeted like a king under the chupah. During this time Yeshua, the bridegroom, will be crowned King under the chupah, which is Heaven.
11. He would abduct his bride, usually in the middle of the night, to go to the bridal chamber where the marriage would be consummated. This is the full marriage, known in Hebrew as nesu'in.
The bride and groom will go to the wedding chamber, or chadar in Hebrew, where the marriage will be consummated. They will stay in that wedding chamber for seven days, or a week. At the end of the seven days, the bride and groom will come out from the wedding chamber. This can be seen in Joel 2:16.
The word week in Hebrew is shavuah. It means a "seven." It can mean seven days or seven years. An example of the Hebrew word for week (shavuah) meaning seven years can be found in Daniel 9:24, as it is written, "Seventy weeks [shavuah, 490 years] are determined upon thy people..." and in 9:27, "And he [the false Messiah known as the antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [shavuah, seven years]...." The week referred to in Daniel 9:27 is known to Bible believers as the tribulation period. The Jewish people understand this time to be the birthpangs of the Messiah known in Hebrew eschatology as the Chevlai shel Mashiach. This is taken from Jeremiah 30:5-7.
12. Finally, there would be a marriage supper for all the guests invited by the father of the bride.
The bride and the groom would be in the wedding chamber for seven days. When the bride and the groom initially went into the wedding chamber, the friend of the bridegroom stood outside the door. All the assembled guests of the wedding gathered outside, waiting for the friend of the bride-groom to announce the consummation of the marriage, which was relayed to him by the groom. John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist) referred to this in John 3:29. At this signal, great rejoicing broke forth (John 3:29). The marriage was consummated on the first night (Genesis [Bereishit] 29:23). The bloodstained linen from this night was preserved. It was proof of the bride's virginity (Deuteronomy [Devarim] 22:13-21).
On the wedding day, the bridegroom is seen as a king and the bride as a queen. During the consummation of the marriage, the bridegroom (Yeshua) will be crowned King over all the earth and the bride (the believers in Yeshua, the Messiah) will live with Him and rule with Him forever. The crowning of the King and the marriage can be seen in Isaiah 62:3-7. At the end of the week (seven-year tribulation, or birthpangs of the Messiah), the marriage supper will take place. The marriage supper will not take place in Heaven. After the marriage, the bride and Groom will return to earth. The marriage supper will be taking place on earth and only the invited guests of the Father of the Groom (G-d the Father) will be present at the banquet meal. This can be seen in Revelation 19:7-16 and 20:4. Yeshua spoke of the marriage supper and the banquet in Luke 12:35-38 and Matthew 8:11. The wedding supper is a theme of the festival of Sukkot, which will be discussed further in a later chapter. During Sukkot, the people were instructed by G-d to build a temporary shelter. One of the things G-d instructed the people to do is eat there. When they eat, they are to set a plate for seven different people. Among the seven whom a plate is set for are Abraham (Avraham), Isaac (Yitzchak), and Jacob (Ya'akov). This is what Yeshua was referring to in Matthew 8:11.
The unbelievers in the Messiah will attend a separate banquet where the fowls of the air will eat their flesh. This can be seen in Revelation 19:17-18.
The home of the bride was Jerusalem and it was the bridegroom who came to the bride to dwell with her. It is from Jerusalem that the believers in the Messiah during the Messianic age, or Millennium, will reign with the Messiah. This can be seen in Revelation 21:1-3; Ezekiel 43:1-2,7; Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-5; and Zechariah 2:l0-12.
In concluding this section on the wedding, whenever anyone hears the message of the basar (gospel), it is a wedding proposal by G-d to accept Him and be a part of His bride. G-d desires that we accept His invitation and give Him our response of "I do." In fact, Revelation 22:20 is a proposal by Yeshua Himself to accept Him and be a part of His bride. His message in this verse is "Come." Will you say, "I do" to the Messiah's proposal to you?
**********************************************
Lastly, the scripture I believe shows a pre Daniel's 70th week Rapture of the church in the story of Noah.
The ark is a picture of God's salvation.
The ark was made of wood... an earthy substance.
The WORD of GOD was made Flesh... an earthy substance
The ark was covered with Pitch which made it to pass through the water and not take on water or rot in the water. The pitch that covered the ark is likened to the Blood that covers or us in atonement for our sins.
The 8 that were saved in the flood the bible says were saved BY water.1Pe 3:20 We are according to the scripture sanctified by the washing of water by the word Eph 5:26
The ark had one door and the 8 had to enter through that door.
We have one door and that door is Christ and we must enter by Christ.
God called the 8 into the ark when it was time.
God will call us when it is time.
God shut the door of the ark and no man could open it.
God will shut the door of heaven in the appointed time and no man can open it.
The 8 were in the ark 7 days with GOD 7 days before the judgment of the flood came. The earth's people saw this but it was too late; they could not escape the judgment to come.
I believe the Bride of Christ will be in heaven at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. The world will see this, but they will not be able to escape the coming judgments.
************************************************
I believe that this is to the Bride of Christ...
Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
This church alone is is kept from the trial that will come upon ALL the world. That tells me they will not be in the world. Since we are not of the world and this is true of the Bride alone, who are NOW on earth as HE is in Heaven, Righteous, and who are NOW citizens of a heavenly Kingdom, it does not make sense to me that we will be here for what it to come upon the kingdoms of this world. Right now, we are the only ones that are not part of the kingdoms of this world.
That is why I believe in a Pre-Daniel's 70th week Rapture. I do not call it a pre-tribulation rapture because the bible does not speak of 7 years of tribulation. It speaks of 3.5 years called the Great Tribulation. However, 1 week 7 years is appointed and determined upon Daniel;s people and the city of Jerusalem. Not upon the Birde of Christ.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
Pio, from my personal study of the scriptures and History of the Church, I do not believe it possible to be Saved and a Roman Catholic.
Truly I can not judge your heart and know for certain if you are saved, but for me not to warn you to flee from the Roman Catholic System would be a sin for me. I do not want your blood on my hands on judgment day.
I am sincere when I say; I hope to see you in eternity. For I would not which the eternal fires of Hell on anyone.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
What makes you think I'm not saved? Let me tell you quickly What I believe.
Jesus Died on the Cross for my sins and forgiveness can only be obtained through HIM.
Salvation is a Free gift which I am undeserving and can NEVER deserve, so trying to deserve it is useless, and in fact a denial of the Free gift that God gave me. God Gave his Holy Spirit to the Church and Christian to help guide them and we must follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We must seek to live a Christian life. If we do not then our actiions can scandalize and harm the faith of our brothers, and can create a stumbling block for those who do not know Jesus.
becauseHElives: Why do you say that I need to repent and be saved. I AM saved. Why do you insist to cast Judgement upon my faith in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, in Jesus the Source and Summit of the Christian Faith, and in Jesus the Only source of Salvation?
IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
From what I know about Kindgo, David, Linda, wparr, barrykind, Caretaker, TEXASGRANDMA, Itty-Bitty Girl and myself for sure believe the scriptures alone establish truth. (There may be others)
quote:
Pio said...
It's not about whether the WORD appears, the meaning of words change over time. It is about is the teaching REALLY there? no one has SHOWN me anything from the Bible, which is the same thing I've experienced my entire life. I asked an honest question. I'm trying to disprove the Rapture, I just don't see biblical support (evidence) for it. I was hoping somebody here could help me out, after all I understand that you all are Sola Scriptura.
Sola scriptura (Latin for scripture alone) is one of five important slogans of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century CE. Although there is no agreed-upon technical definition among Protestants, it generally meant that Scripture is the only inerrant rule for deciding issues of faith and morals.
Nothing man has to offer of his own intellect or experience is of any consequence in establishing Biblical authority and truth.
While I am not sure about the timing of the Rapture, I do know positively that a Rapture will take place prior to the wrath of Yahweh being poured out on this earth.
I will try to put together the way I see it, but until then I will continue to pray that you may see the error of Roman Catholicism, repent and be saved.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
It's not about whether the WORD appears, the meaning of words change over time. It is about is the teaching REALLY there? no one has SHOWN me anything from the Bible, which is the same thing I've experienced my entire life. I asked an honest question. I'm trying to disprove the Rapture, I just don't see biblical support (evidence) for it. I was hoping somebody here could help me out, after all I understand that you all are Sola Scriptura.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
|
posted
Do you believe in the doctrine of the "trinity"?
Can you show me where this word is in the Bible?
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
EL3LN3TN
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pio:
So my question is what is the biblical evidence for the rapture,
I'm not really seeing how it's possible to have "evidence" for something, or an event that has not yet occurred.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
|
posted
Please let me add:
The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].”
1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven . . . who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
|
posted
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.
The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord.
We are told “to be ready” (Matt. 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matt. 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.
Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.
For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment?
I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
Ok, The Rapture is something I have always found to be vaguely supported by the scriptures at best. So my question is what is the biblical evidence for the rapture, and do you believe in a post or pre tribulation rapture?
I always believe that IF the rapture is truely biblical then a post tribulation rapture makes the most sense. Because God never promised that we would forgoe suffering, and Suffering under the pursecution of the rapture would be a greater witness to the faith than a pre tribulation rapture. ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
