|
Author
|
Topic: Purgatory, nonbelievers, and doubts
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead
"Extreme unction," however, to a burdened soul, was but a miserable resource, after all, in the prospect of death. No wonder, therefore, that something else was found to be needed by those who had received all that priestly assumption could pretend to confer, to comfort them in the prospect of eternity.
In every system, therefore, except that of the Bible, the doctrine of a purgatory after death, and prayers for the dead, has always been found to occupy a place.
Go wherever we may, in ancient or modern times, we shall find that Paganism leaves hope after death for sinners, who, at the time of their departure, were consciously unfit for the abodes of the blest. For this purpose a middle state has been feigned, in which, by means of purgatorial pains, guilt unremoved in time may in a future world be purged away, and the soul be made meet for final beatitude.
In Greece the doctrine of a purgatory was inculcated by the very chief of the philosophers.
Thus Plato, speaking of the future judgment of the dead, holds out the hope of final deliverance for all, but maintains that, of "those who are judged," "some" must first "proceed to a subterranean place of judgment, where they shall sustain the punishment they have deserved"; while others, in consequence of a favourable judgment, being elevated at once into a certain celestial place, "shall pass their time in a manner becoming the life they have lived in a human shape."
In Pagan Rome, purgatory was equally held up before the minds of men; but there, there seems to have been no hope held out to any of exemption from its pains. Therefore, Virgil, describing its different tortures, thus speaks:
"Nor can the grovelling mind,
In the dark dungeon of the limbs confined,
Assert the native skies, or own its heavenly kind.
Nor death itself can wholly wash their stains;
But long-contracted filth, even in the soul, remains
The relics of inveterate vice they wear,
And spots of sin obscene in every face appear.
For this are various penances enjoined;
And some are hung to bleach upon the wind,
Some plunged in water, others purged in fires,
Till all the dregs are drained, and all the rust expires.
All have their Manes, and those Manes bear.
The few so cleansed to these abodes repair,
And breathe in ample fields the soft Elysian air,
Then are they happy, when by length of time
The scurf is worn away of each committed crime.
No speck is left of their habitual stains,
But the pure ether of the soul remains."
In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was inculcated. But when once this doctrine of purgatory was admitted into the popular mind, then the door was opened for all manner of priestly extortions.
Prayers for the dead ever go hand in hand with purgatory; but no prayers can be completely efficacious without the interposition of the priests; and no priestly functions can be rendered unless there be special pay for them.
Therefore, in every land we find the Pagan priesthood "devouring widows' houses," and making merchandise of the tender feelings of sorrowing relatives, sensitively alive to the immortal happiness of the beloved dead. From all quarters there is one universal testimony as to the burdensome character and the expense of these posthumous devotions.
One of the oppressions under which the poor Romanists in Ireland groan, is the periodical special devotions, for which they are required to pay, when death has carried away one of the inmates of their dwelling. Not only are there funeral services and funeral dues for the repose of the departed, at the time of burial, but the priest pays repeated visits to the family for the same purpose, which entail heavy expense, beginning with what is called "the month's mind," that is, a service in behalf of the deceased when a month after death has elapsed.
Something entirely similar to this had evidently been the case in ancient Greece; for, says Muller in his History of the Dorians, "the Argives sacrificed on the thirtieth day [after death] to Mercury as the conductor of the dead."
In India many and burdensome are the services of the Sradd'ha, or funeral obsequies for the repose of the dead; and for securing the due efficacy of these, it is inculcated that "donations of cattle, land, gold, silver, and other things," should be made by the man himself at the approach of death; or, "if he be too weak, by another in his name"
(Asiatic Researches). Wherever we look, the case is nearly the same.
In Tartary, "The Gurjumi, or prayers for the dead," says the Asiatic Journal, "are very expensive." In Greece, says Suidas, "the greatest and most expensive sacrifice was the mysterious sacrifice called the Telete," a sacrifice which, according to Plato, "was offered for the living and the dead, and was supposed to free them from all the evils to which the wicked are liable when they have left this world."
In Egypt the exactions of the priests for funeral dues and masses for the dead were far from being trifling. "The priests," says Wilkinson, "induced the people to expend large sums on the celebration of funeral rites; and many who had barely sufficient to obtain the necessaries of life were anxious to save something for the expenses of their death. For, beside the embalming process, which sometimes cost a talent of silver, or about 250 pounds English money, the tomb itself was purchased at an immense expense; and numerous demands were made upon the estate of the deceased, for the celebration of prayer and other services for the soul."
"The ceremonies," we find him elsewhere saying, "consisted of a sacrifice similar to those offered in the temples, vowed for the deceased to one or more gods (as Osisris, Anubis, and others connected with Amenti); incense and libation were also presented; and a prayer was sometimes read, the relations and friends being present as mourners. They even joined their prayers to those of the priest. The priest who officiated at the burial service was selected from the grade of Pontiffs, who wore the leopard skin; but various other rites were performed by one of the minor priests to the mummies, previous to their being lowered into the pit of the tomb after that ceremony. Indeed, they continued to be administered at intervals, as long as the family paid for their performance."
Such was the operation of the doctrine of purgatory and prayers for the dead among avowed and acknowledged Pagans; and in what essential respect does it differ from the operation of the same doctrine in Papal Rome? There are the same extortions in the one as there were in the other.
The doctrine of purgatory is purely Pagan, and cannot for a moment stand in the light of Scripture. For those who die in Christ no purgatory is, or can be, needed; for "the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanseth from ALL sin." If this be true, where can there be the need for any other cleansing?
On the other hand, for those who die without personal union to Christ, and consequently unwashed, unjustified, unsaved, there can be no other cleansing; for, while "he that hath the son hath life, he that hath not the Son hath not life," and never can have it.
Search the Scripture through, and it will be found that, in regard to all who "die in their sins," the decree of God is irreversible:
"Let him that is unjust be unjust still, and let him that is filthy be filthy still." Thus the whole doctrine of purgatory is a system of pure bare-faced Pagan imposture, dishonouring to God, deluding men who live in sin with the hope of atoning for it after death, and cheating them at once out of their property and their salvation.
In the Pagan purgatory, fire, water, wind, were represented (as may be seen from the lines of Virgil) as combining to purge away the stain of sin. In the purgatory of the Papacy, ever since the days of Pope Gregory, FIRE itself has been the grand means of purgation (Catechismus Romanus). Thus, while the purgatorial fires of the future world are just the carrying out of the principle embodied in the blazing and purifying Baal-fires of the eve of St. John, they form another link in identifying the system of Rome with the system of Tammuz or Zoroaster, the great God of the ancient fire-worshippers.
Now, if baptismal regeneration, justification by works, penance as a satisfaction to God's justice, the unbloody sacrifice of the mass, extreme unction, purgatory, and prayers for the dead, were all derived from Babylon, how justly may the general system of Rome be styled Babylonian? And if the account already given be true, what thanks ought we to render to God, that, from a system such as this, we were set free at the blessed Reformation! How great a boon is it to be delivered from trusting in such refuges of lies as could no more take away sin than the blood of bulls or of goats!
How blessed to feel that the blood of the Lamb, applied by the Spirit of God to the most defiled conscience, completely purges it from dead works and from sin! How fervent ought our gratitude to be, when we know that, in all our trials and distresses, we may come boldly unto the throne of grace, in the name of no creature, but of God's eternal and well-beloved Son; and that that Son is exhibited as a most tender and compassionate high priest, who is TOUCHED with a feeling of our infirmities, having been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Surely the thought of all this, while inspiring tender compassion for the deluded slaves of Papal tyranny, ought to make us ourselves stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and quit ourselves like men, that neither we nor our children may ever again be entangled in the yoke of bondage.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
Eden your misconceptions are truely amazing.
1) The are their three different kinds of priest The High Priest (Jesus), The Ministerial Priesthood (Ordained by sucsessors of the the Apostles by the laying on of hand show as shown in Acts), and the Priesthood of the laity. Which the latter is what you refer to.
2) Not All Priest in the Ministerial Priesthood are celebate, not asked to be. There are 23 Rites of the Catholic Church All unified in DOCTINE and DOGMA, but differing on traditions. Most of the Rites do allowed married men to become ordained.
I have never told you what Rite I am in, or looking at becoming ordained in so asumeing I am going to be a eunuch is a falsehood.
Furthermore, as the Grandson of two ministers, I have seen the falseness that a Church asks the Pastor's family to live in and my Parents grew up in that hypocracy. Why would I want to put a family that I love through all of that.
Do I believe that I can not molest little boys and girls? YES!!!, For one I am not a pedophile NOW. Besides that, Catholic Priest get a bad rap on that whole thing. even ONE child getting hurt in that way is a horrible thing that should never happen. with that being said...
A Study was done on Catholic Priest, Lawyers, Doctors, School Teacher, and Non-Catholic Pastors. Which group do you think had the lowest percentage of member/reports ratio?
The Catholic Priest. meaning that ALL of the other groups were higher. This is s sign that to problem with pedophilia IS NOT, I repeat IS NOT celebacy, but a problem with our society. If we turn to focus on the problem and loose sight of finding the real problem and instead find something we hate and go after it, then who is protecting our Children from the non-Catholic ministers, and their teachers, and the doctors, and the lawyers?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Pio.
You said in one of your posts above that you wanted to become a priest soon. By that presumably you mean be a "eunuch for Christ" that not all men can receive, as Jesus said.
But Pio, do you agree that when we become bornagain Christians (Catholic, Protestant, and if there be any other, let them be included if there is an active faith in Jesus's Substitutionary work), do you agree, Pio, that the Bible says that all who become bornagain Christians are "already priests and kings with Jesus"?
So Pio, when you say you want to be a priest, are you not more referring to being a eunuch for Christ rather than a priest for Christ since by Biblical definition you already ARE a priest, but not a eunuch?
Matthew 19:12 (KJV)
For there are some eunuchs who were so born from their mother's womb; and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there be eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
I don't mean no offense, but are you able to receive it without becoming a pedophile? For Paul, Peter, James, and all those fellow apostles, were MARRIED, lest their burning passion turned to benefit SATAN.
Becoming a eunuch for Christ as contemplated above is a very difficult thing. I would rather see you GET MARRIED as the Apostles Peter and apostles were and as most Protestant preachers are married, lest they fall into temptation.
Be blessed.
Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
It is impossible to be both Catholic and Atheist, and anyone who claims to be such is just fooling themselves.
As to the Canon of the Bible, I am not allowed to discuss it on these boards. I would be glad to discuss it in private, or through email.
I appreciate you kind words, and I agree that not all who call themselves Catholic are Christians. However it IS a fact that if you are not Christian then you are not Catholic. The same way that even if you call yourself Christian and do not accept Christs Sacrifice and Commandments in their entirety you are not saved.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
|
posted
With all do respect- Purgatory only gets its defense in the books of the Apochrypha. There is no scriptural defense for purgatory. The Council of Trent canonized the Apochrypha into the Bible, by doing this it further fragment the believers. No Jew ever accepted the Apochrypha into the Canonized Old Testament. Neither Do Protestants accept them either because the Jews don't. The Apochrypha was never referenced by the Apostles or by Christ himself. I rather follow Jesus. With SOLA SCRIPTURA! SOLO GRATIA! SOLA FIDE! SOLUS CHRISTUS! SOLI DEO GLORIA! The Roman Catholic CHurch although it has the Nicean Creed and believe like others hold onto the traditions of Rome and the non-scriptural authority of the Church Tradition. When I had a debate with a Priest, He said that all believers are welcome to the Church- I told them that is not true, because the Catholic Church believes in closed communion.
In order for a Christian to belong to the Catholic Church- he or she has to acknowledge the Pope as Christ incarnate as his authority. Sorry Po this is not scriptural!
What I do appreciate about the Catholic Church is its pagentry. I have even met 2 military Chaplains who were Catholic that were Athesist.
Po- I hope you realize when you became a Priest, you take on the responsiblity that God places on you and if you do err and lead people astray- God will hold you accountable.
There are Christians within the Catholic church, however not all Catholics are Christians. And as the Bible States -You can not worship God and mammon.
Always in Christ,
Eduardo
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
Ahar, I have started a New Thread "Why do Catholics Confess to a Priest?"
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
Given that David threatened to ban me for 'teaching catholic doctrine' (I was saying that Catholics do believe that christ has died for their sins), I suspect this will be your one and only post.
But I hope not - I would be interested in the debate.
The first question I have (if you're not immediately banned) is why are priests needed for confession? If Catholism teaches that priests are simply there as a conduit but that you can pray directly for forgiveness (like the thief) why are priests needed to perform this function at all? I mean, why bother - why not pray directly to ask for forgiveness?
I responded here to the question of purgatory, because the question was asked to Catholics.
I would be happy to discuss your question. However this thread does not seem like the most appropriate thread. Is there a Debate thread? or perhaps "Exposing False Teachings" is the proper place.
Just to make clear, my purpose in defending Catholic Teaching is so that non-Catholics don't Misrepresent what Catholics believe.
IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
There is a Christ in Roman Catholicism, but it is not the true Christ of Scripture.
The Christ of Roman Catholicism is another Christ, the anti-Christ.
The innocent blood of those that would not except the Roman Catholic Wh!ore, prove Roman Catholicism to be the false system of the anti-Christ she is/was and always will be.
Those that belong to the True Church of Yeshua will always follow Yeshua’s example, Father forgive them they know not what they do. Steven was the first to follow the Lord’s example, the Apostles followed, all but John, they tried but he just would not die.
The True Church could have easily took up arms and defended themselves but it is not the way of the True followers of Yeshua. They loved not their lives unto death.
The Apostle Paul warned in the strongest possible terms about the attitude of God toward those who would pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ. We can understand this, as it cost God his only Son and Jesus a horrible death by crucifixion. He stated:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8, 9
You can defend that wh!ore the “Roman Catholic Church” drunk on the blood of the True Saints, but not I.
I will only preach and defend the True Gospel.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
|
posted
Given that David threatened to ban me for 'teaching catholic doctrine' (I was saying that Catholics do believe that christ has died for their sins), I suspect this will be your one and only post.
But I hope not - I would be interested in the debate.
The first question I have (if you're not immediately banned) is why are priests needed for confession? If Catholism teaches that priests are simply there as a conduit but that you can pray directly for forgiveness (like the thief) why are priests needed to perform this function at all? I mean, why bother - why not pray directly to ask for forgiveness?
--------------------
Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
There is nothing of the true Christ in Roman Catholicism
That is an extremely incorrect statement. Christ is the Head of the Church, the hieght and summit of all of it's actions and Salvation can be obtained ONLY through Christ. What is wrong with what I just stated? Because, it is ALL Catholic teaching.
Yes the Catholic Church counts all Baptised, because Baptism is neccessary for Salvation, and put an indelliable mark on an individual. If I marked you with a tatoo (poor example, but the best i can come up with right now ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif) )Then you would be marked forever whether you decide later you agree with the tatoo or not.
The Catholic Church was created in Mathew Chp. 16, 18 and Confirmed on the Day of Pentecost. This Church lasted as One until 1072, when the Church broke in two, now know as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, but bearing valid Apostolic Succession.
The Title of Bishop among Bishop was not given by Contantine, but by ALL of the Churches East and West. The Pope was the First among Equals. At times Christianity has taken things that were of this world and turned them over to God. God can make new creations just as he can save us.
There can be a Pagan Holiday attributed to almost every day of the year, so does that mean that ALL Christian Holidays are pagan? The Holidays are kept in worship of the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. The Saints are talked about in the bible, and have deeper roots into the Jewish holidays, such as the ten days of awe, When the Jews would go to the graves of their ancestors and pray for ten days asking for their help and praying for them (the ancestors)
ALL Catholic teaching can be backed by Scripture. Roman Catholicism, and A Woman Rides the Beast are not an accurate assesments of Catholic Teaching and Beliefs. If you want an ACURATE assesment the Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and in addition any book that has an "Impramteur" and "Nihil Obstat" in the front cover "contains on errors which are objectionable to the Catholic Faith"
1 tim 3:15 The Church is the pillar and Foundation of Truth (not the Bible).
Mathew 16:19, Mathew 18:18, John 20:23 (Make sure God doesn't read this verse, he might not realize he sinned allowing man to forgive sins)
The Church does NOT teach that a Priest has the power to forgive sins. Jesus forgives through the ministry of the Priest. The priest sits Persona Christi Capitis. Furthermore,
The Catholic Church DID make the Canon of the Bible, this Canon was accepted and used by ALL Christians until Martin Luther, changed it and inserted words.
See the post above concerning purgatory. Christ suffering was complete in terms of the redemptive quality. read Col. 1:24 when paul speaks of that which islacking of the afflictions of Christ, what is he talking about if Christ was Complete in ALL areas for redemption.
Mary is the Mother of God, was not Jesus God? Revelations calls Mary the Queen of Heaven, The hail Mary come from Scripture,the annucuation of the Angel Garbriel to Mary, and Mary's visit to Elizabeth. The second part come from an understanding from the books of Macabees which were taken out of the Bible. Catholics do not WORSHIP mary they venerate her on the level of hyper-dulia. They further do not bow to a statue but bow to god, if this happens to be in front of a statue it is still to God in worship to him, and in thanks for the gift he has given to the world which is represented by the statue.
There is enough on Mary it should be it own thread.
faith in Christ alone was something unknown to Christianity for the first 1500 years. That is why Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James along with the seven books in the Old Testament. The Catholic Church has never said that someone ISN"T in heaven, we can not make that call, because perfect contrition for the sins one has committed is still recognized by God. The Sacraments may all be conducted in two ways. 1)the ordinary way by virtue of the actual physical sacrament and 2) the extraordinary way, when the ordinary way is impossible by desire. The theif on the Cross recieved the sacrament of Baptism by desire, because he truely desired the Truth of Christ, but Baptism was not possible.
Your explinations of the Sacraments are full of incorrect assesments, maybe another thread?
The Mass is pictured in the Book of Revelations as well as the Non-biblical text of the didache which is even before 100A.D. This show the Mass as being MUCH older than what you assert.
here is more on the Didache http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm
More in another thread later.
There have been MANY Church Councils among which is also the Council of Nicea which set the Canon of the bible
The bit on Anathma confused me alittle. Of Course those who deny God's Truth knowingly are Anathma
IP: Logged |
|
|
Pio
unregistered
|
posted
Ok, I'll start with the fact that i am a Catholic, and I'm currently considering becoming a Priest. With that being said, I hope to give you the True Catholic understaning of Purgatory.
The first thing to recognize is thatmartin Luther and the rest of the reformers took seven books out of the New Testament. this is important, because this did not change the Scriptures for Catholics. We interpret the New Testament in ligght of the Old Testament, so if our old Testaments differ, then how we read and interpret the New Testament will change. many of the proof text for Purgatory, as well as prayer for and to the dead, come from these seven books rejected in the protestant reformation. As a Christian who uses a Bible then not followed for the first 1500 years of Christianity then it then can become difficult to understand then the teaching that the faith promulgated throughtout the last 2000 years.
When we sin, we harm ourselves Spiritually, intellectually ect. We recieve FORGIVENESS for these sins through Christ. However the effects of the sin, the pain, drawing away from God ect. are NOT aotumatically healed. it is a process we must go through. Prayer, Contriteness of Heart, The Eucharist are all things which give us God's Grace to help us heal although we are forgiven. In order for us to enter Heaven we must be prefect. That is to mean that once we die, many of us may not have a perfect soul. We can be in a state of Grace, because our sins are forgiven, but still may have healing which needs to happen. This takes place in Purgatory. this is not limbo, or a place to go because God didn't know what to do with us. It is a place of Purification, in preparation to entering Heaven (only those going to heaven go to purgatory). Contrary to popular thought the Catholic Church has never said that you must spend ... much time in purgatory for...sin. We don't know how long Purgatory is, it may be instantanious, or it may be until the end of the world. Remember that God exist outside the bounds of time therefore when we die and we are outside the bounds of time too, so trying to define it by time doesn't work.
I hope this helps, if not then there is a better but much more explination here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
IP: Logged |
|
|
sarah89
New Member
Member # 6045
|
posted
Thanks everyone for your replies... you've given me a lot to consider. I really appreciate it.
Sarah
Posts: 2 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
I'll address "Purgatory" first....
There is nothing of the true Christ in Roman Catholicism
Roman Catholicism
Christian or Pagan?
The Roman Catholic Church, headquartered in Rome, Italy, has its own powerful City-State, the Vatican, and claims over 968 million members worldwide and 60 million in the U.S. and Canada (as of 1996). (Catholic membership figures are considerably misleading, though, in that they count as members every person who has been baptized Catholic, including millions of people who were baptized as infants but who are not practicing Catholics.) The Roman Catholic Church, in its pagan form, unofficially came into being in 312 A.D., at the time of the so-called "miraculous conversion" to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Although Christianity was not made the official religion of the Roman Empire until the edicts of Theodosius I in 380 and 381 A.D., Constantine, from 312 A.D. until his death in 337, was engaged in the process of simultaneously building pagan temples and Christian churches, and was slowly turning over the reigns of his pagan priesthood to the Bishop of Rome. However, the family of Constantine did not give up the last vestige of his priesthood until after the disintegration of the Roman Empire -- that being the title the emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood -- Pontifex Maximus -- a title which the popes would inherit. (The popes also inherited Constantine's titles as the self-appointed civil head of the church -- Vicar of Christ and Bishop of Bishops.)
Prior to the time of Constantine's "conversion," Christians were persecuted not so much for their profession of faith in Christ, but because they would not include pagan deities in their faith as well. Then, with Constantine's emphasis on making his new-found Christianity palatable to the heathen in the Empire, the "Christianization" of these pagan deities was facilitated. For example, pagan rituals and idols gradually took on Christian meanings and names and were incorporated into "Christian" worship (e.g., "saints" replaced the cult of pagan gods in both worship and as patrons of cities; mother/son statues were renamed Mary and Jesus; etc.), and pagan holidays were reclassified as Christian holy days (e.g., the Roman Lupercalia and the feast of purification of Isis became the Feast of the Nativity; the Saturnalia celebrations were replaced by Christmas celebrations; an ancient festival of the dead was replaced by All Souls Day, rededicated to Christian heroes [now Halloween]; etc.). A transition had occurred -- instead of being persecuted for failure to worship pagan deities, Christians who did not agree with the particular orthodoxy backed by the Emperor were now persecuted in the name of Christ! "Christianized" Rome had become the legitimate successor of pagan Rome! This is the sad origin of the Roman Catholic Church.
Below are the highlights of what Catholics believe concerning their source of authority; God, Christ, and Mary; salvation and the sacraments; and heaven and hell. So much more could be said concerning not only the items listed below, but also concerning other areas of Catholic teaching (such as the claims of the Roman priesthood and its supposed origin in the Apostles; the nature of the pope's alleged infallibility and the supposed origin of his office in the Apostle Peter; the nature of the Confessional; the doctrine of penance/indulgences; practices concerning rituals, ceremonies, and relics; the doctrine of Celibacy; policies on marriage and divorce; the role of the parochial school; etc.). Excellent reference sources for a thorough treatment of Catholicism’s origins, beliefs, and practices would be Roman Catholicism (466 pgs.) and A Woman Rides the Beast (544 pgs.).
1. Source of Authority. With respect to the Bible, Catholics accept the apocryphal books in addition to the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. They also accept tradition and the teaching of the Catholic Church as authoritative and at least equal to that of the Bible (cf. Mk. 7:8,9,13; Matt. 15:3,6,9; Col. 2:8). With respect to papal infallibility, Catholics believe that ecumenical councils of bishops and the pope are immune from error when speaking ex cathedra about faith and morals (i.e., "from the chair" -- by sole virtue of position or the exercise of an office). (And by "infallible," Catholics mean much more than merely a simple, de facto absence of error -- it is positive perfection, ruling out the possibility of error. In actuality, Roman Catholicism places itself above Scripture; i.e., it teaches that the Roman Catholic Church produced the Bible and that the pope is Christ's vicar on earth. Catholics also maintain the belief in sacerdotalism -- that an ordained Catholic priest has the power to forgive sins (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5). This of course is a false teaching because no one can forgive sin other then God Himself (Mark 2:7). The Word of God is the ONLY true source of truth, not church tradition.
2. Jesus Christ. Catholicism teaches that Christ is God, but they, nevertheless, do not believe that Christ's death paid the full penalty for sin; i.e., they believe that those who qualify for heaven must still spend time in purgatory to atone for sin (cf. John. 19: 30; Hebrews 10:11,12). There is nothing taught in the Bible about purgatory. Catholics diminish Christ's deity (as do other cults), but in a different manner; instead of bringing Christ low by denying his deity, Catholics elevate Mary high in an attempt to make her equal with Christ, this is heresy.
3. Mary. The Catholic Church gives honor and adoration to Mary that the Scriptures do not; she is readily referred to as "holy," the "Mother of God," and has been dubbed the "Co-Redemptrix," thereby making her an object of idolatrous worship (e.g., the rosary has ten prayers to Mary for each two directed to God). In 1923, Pope Pius XI sanctioned Pope Benedict XV's (1914-1922) pronouncement that Mary suffered with Christ, and that with Him, she redeemed the human race. And Pope Pius XII officially designated Mary the "Queen of Heaven" and "Queen of the World." Catholics claim not only that Mary was perfectly sinless from conception, even as Jesus was (doctrine of Immaculate Conception, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854), but that the reason she never sinned at any time during her life was because she was unable to sin (cf. Luke 1:46,47; Rom. 3:10,23; 5:12; Heb. 4:15; 1 John 1:8,10). Catholics also believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin (cf. Ps. 69:8; Matt. 1:24,25; 13:54-56; Mk. 6:3; John 7:5), and that she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven (doctrine of Assumption of Mary, declared ex cathedra by Pope Pius XII in November of 1950 -- that Mary was raised from the dead on the third day after her death, and anyone who refuses to believe this has committed a mortal sin). The consequence of all this veneration of Mary, in effect, establishes her authority above Christ's -- Rome says, "He came to us through Mary and we must go to Him through her." All this is so obviously idolatrous, one wonders why Catholics take offense when their religious affections are called cultic. Exodus 20:4,5 (the Ten Commandments) strictly forbids bowing down to any likeness of anything in heaven (this includes Mary). It's the 2nd command, read it for yourself! It's the same Scripture found in the Catholic Bible, so why do they disobey God?
4. Salvation. Catholics teach that a person is saved through the Roman Catholic Church and its sacraments, especially through baptism; they do not believe that salvation can be obtained by grace through faith in Christ alone, but that baptism is essential to salvation. Catholics believe that no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved (Unum Sanctum) (cf. John 5:24; Ephesians 2: 8,9; Galatians 2:21; Romans 3:22,23). They also believe that one's own suffering can expiate the sin's of himself and of others, so that what Christ's suffering was not able to achieve, one can achieve by his own works and the works of others (Vatican II). These are all lies of the Catholic church! The thief on the cross was never baptized. The Apostle Paul said Jesus had not sent him to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1st Corinthians 1:17). Jesus didn't baptize (John 4:2).
5. Sacraments. Catholics have seven sacraments: baptism, confirmation, Eucharist (mass), penance/reconciliation (indulgences), extreme unction (last rights), marriage, and orders (ordination). Although not even formally decreed until the Council of Florence in 1439, the Council of Trent later declared all to be anathema whom do not hold Rome's position that it was Christ Himself who instituted these seven sacraments! (The idea behind the sacraments is that the shedding of Christ's Blood in His death upon the cross is of no value unless it is somehow dispensed and applied "sacramentally" by the Catholic priesthood.) Although Catholics believe that the first five sacraments are indispensable for salvation (because without any one of them, a mortal sin has been committed), baptism is considered the most important. Catholics believe that a person enters into the spiritual life of the Church through baptism; i.e., baptismal regeneration -- that a person can be saved through baptism (actually, 'on the road to salvation,' because Catholics never know exactly when they are saved). They practice infant baptism because they believe baptism erases original sin (cf. John 3:18). Titus 3:5 makes clear that we cannot be saved by works, "Not by works of righteousness..." There are NO sacraments taught in the Bible. Nothing is essential for our salvation other than simple child-like faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as personal Saviour to forgive our sins.
6. The Mass. Unknown in the early church, the mass did not become an official doctrine until pronounced by the Lateran Council of 1215 under the direction of Pope Innocent III, and reaffirmed by the Council of Trent. The Church of Rome holds that the mass is a continuation of the sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary -- in effect a re-crucifixion of Christ over and over again in an unbloody manner (cf. Hebrews 9:22; 1 John 1:7). They believe that by this means Christ offers Himself again and again as a sacrifice for sin (cf. Hebrews 7:27; 9:12,25,26; 10:10,12,14,18), and that this sacrifice is just as efficacious to take away sin as was the true sacrifice on Calvary. Catholics thus teach the doctrine of transubstantiation (meaning a change of substance) -- that the bread and wine (at communion) actually become (by the power of the priest!) the body and blood of Christ, which is then worshiped as God Himself! Indeed, the sacrifice of the mass is the central point of Catholic worship, as evidenced by the fact that those abstaining from attending mass are considered to have committed a mortal sin. Of course, holy communion is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches the "Lord's supper" which was simply an ordinance that Christ initiated for believers to do in remembrance of Him, no more. There is nothing magical about the Lord's supper. Nothing changes into anything. It is simply a time to remember Christ in an official church manner, Jesus is NOT dying again. The book of Hebrews tells us repeatedly that Jesus died "once" for all.
7. Purgatory. Of pagan origin, the Roman Church proclaimed purgatory as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548. The Catholic Church teaches that even those "who die in the state of grace" (i.e., saved and sins forgiven) must still spend an indefinite time being purged/purified (i.e., expiated of sins/cleansed for heaven). Technically, this "purging" can occur in this life rather than in purgatory itself, but as a practical matter, purgatory is the best the average Catholic can hope for. Some Catholics will admit that the doctrine of purgatory is not based on the Bible, but on Catholic tradition (which, by Catholic standards, is equally authoritative) (cf. John 5:24; Luke 23:43; 1 John 1:7,9; Phil. 1:23). (Others teach that it is based upon the interpretation of several Scriptural texts -- 1 Corinthians 3:15; 1 Peter 1:7; 3:19; Matt. 12:31.) They teach that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and good works of those on earth (which would include the "purchase" of masses and/or other indulgences), but they are not certain how these prayers and works are applied (cf. 2 Peter 1:9; Hebrews 1:3; John 3:18; 19:30; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8).
8. The Church Councils. There have been three major Roman Catholic Councils: Council of Trent (1545-1563), Vatican I (1869-1870), and Vatican II (1962-1965). The last Council, Vatican II, offered no new doctrines nor repudiated any essential teaching of the Roman Church; it referred to Trent dozens and dozens of times, quoted Trent's proclamations as authority, and reaffirmed Trent on every hand. Even the New Catholic Catechism (1992/1994) cites Trent no less than 99 times! There is not the slightest hint that the proclamations of the Council of Trent have been abrogated by Rome. At the opening of the Second Vatican council, Pope John XXIII stated, "I do accept entirely all that has been decided and declared at the Council of Trent," and all of the Catholic leaders who attended Vatican II signed a document containing this statement. (The current pope, Pope John Paul II, has even cited the Council of Trent as authority for his blasphemous position on Mary.):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Council of Trent -- The Council of Trent was held in an attempt to destroy the progress of the Protestant Reformation; it approved many superstitious and unbiblical beliefs of the Middle Ages (all to be believed under the threat of "anathema"):
(a) Denied every doctrine of the Reformation, from Sola Scriptura to "salvation by grace through faith alone";
(b) Pronounced 125 anathemas (i.e., eternal damnation) upon anyone believing what evangelicals believe and preach today;
(c) Equal value and authority of tradition and Scripture (in actuality, tradition is held above Scripture);
(d) Scriptures for the priesthood only (prohibited to anyone in the laity without written permission from one's superior -- to violate this was [and still is in most "Catholic countries" today] considered a mortal sin);
(e) Seven sacraments;
(f) Communion by eating the bread only (not drinking the wine);
(g) Purgatory;
(h) Indulgences;
(i) The Mass as a propitiatory offering.
Vatican I
(a) Defined the infallibility of the pope;
(b) Confirmed Unum Sanctum (no salvation outside of the Catholic Church).
Vatican II -- made no new doctrines, nor did it change or repudiate any old ones; Trent and Vatican I stand as is (i.e., Vatican II verified and validated all the anathemas of Trent). Vatican II reaffirmed such Roman heresies as papal supremacy; the Roman priesthood; the mass as an unbloody sacrifice of Christ; a polluted sacramental gospel; Catholic tradition on equal par with Scripture; Mary as the Queen of Heaven and co-Redemptrix with Christ; auricular confession; Mariolatry; pilgrimages to "holy shrines"; purgatory; prayers to and for the dead; etc. (Although the restriction against laity reading the Scriptures has been removed, it is still a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic anywhere to read any Protestant version of the Bible. That the real attitude of the Vatican toward the Bible has not changed is shown by the fact that in 1957 the depot of the British and Foreign Bible Society in Madrid, Spain was closed and its stock of Bibles confiscated and burned.)
(a) Reaffirmed the infallibility of the pope (and even when he does not speak ex-cathedra, all Catholics must still give complete submission of mind and will to what he says);
(b) Divided Catholic doctrine into that which is essential core of theology, and must be received by faith, and that which is still an undefined body of theology which Catholics may question and debate without repudiating their essential Catholicism;
(c) Established 20 complex rules concerning when and how any indulgence may be obtained, and condemned "with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them ... [for] the task of winning salvation."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Sampling of the Anathemas (curses) of Trent:
If any one shall deny that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure, or virtually -- let him be accursed (Canon 1).
If any one shall say that the substance of the bread and wine remains in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and shall deny that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the outward forms of the bread and wine still remaining, which conversion the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation -- let him be accursed (Canon 2).
If any man shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, even with the open worship of latria, and therefore not to be venerated with any peculiar festal celebrity, nor to be solemnly carried about in processions according to the praiseworthy, and universal rites and customs of the holy Church, and that he is not to be publicly set before the people to be adored, and that his adorers are idolaters -- let him be accursed (Canon 6).
If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).
If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).
These traditions which began at the Council of Trent are all heresies, NOT based upon the Word of God! Catholicism is a pagan religion, far far from the truth of God's Word. They have churchianity without Christianity!
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Sarah. You say:
______________________
Maybe there are some Catholics out there, or anyone at all who can answer this first question for me. My understanding is that Jesus' death of the cross cleared our debts as sinners. It was a free gift, and we don't have to pay anything for that gift, it was just handed to us. So, I don't quite understand the concept of Purgatory. I know that it is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, but many Catholics have told me that it's mentioned indirectly and that us Christians are just overlooking it because we don't want to believe it exists. Could someone explain to me the basis of the belief in Purgatory?
____________________
Eden here:
Salvation is a free gift to all who believe and accept Jesus as their Substitute who already paid the penalty for their sins, which penalty is death: "the soul that sins, it shall die."
It is a free gift to all who believe in Jesus as their Substitute. Purgatory does not exist in the Bible and it was probably an idea created/added on to the Bible by Satan. Whosoever accepts the sacrificial death of Jesus as "dying in my place", that person is saved, period. No Purg needed; it's a lie from the devil.
You again:
______________________
Next, I'm in high school, and everyday I hear people constantly questioning what I believe, and making fun of what I believe. I don't feel like my faith is strong enough to stand up to these people. Their doubts quickly become my doubts. Does anyone know of any Bible verses or ideas that could help me deal with this? And what should I say to them in return?
_____________________
Eden here:
The more you know about the Bible, as on any subject, the better you will be able to defend yourself. In the meantime, there is no harm in saying "whatever".
Their doubts become your doubts? Yes, it is a very Darwinian world in our public schools these days.
The main thing is: how well do you know that Jesus died in your place and as long as you hang on to that, with more study of the Bible if need be (faith comes by hearing), hang on to knowing that Jesus died for your sins, in your place; you will live, but they will suffer the second death.
you again:
________________
Lastly, I find that I'm actually very afraid of death. I know what Jesus did for me, and I accepted that a long time ago, but death is still so unknown that it's scary. It's easy to question whether or not heaven really exists, because it seems way too good to be true. How can I manage to divert these doubts and turn them into something good for Christ?
_________________________
Eden here: I'm a little older than you, but I find death scary too.
If Jesus said that He was from heaven, you should not doubt that heaven exists.
Be blesed, Sarah
Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
|
posted
Hi Sarah
Purgatory is really a non-scriptural belief. I heard a Priest define purgatory as temporary abode of nothingness of people waiting for final judgement. Now in the Hebrew worldview it is mentioned in the Bible about Shoel. When Lazarus and richman both die ;the richman went to the part where he was tormented in the flames, and Lazarus went to the bossom of Abraham to be comforted. In the New testament it is said to be absent from the body -is to be present with the Lord. Purgatory existed and came into fashion when the catholic round of Arch Bishop said at a meeting that they needed money- so they start selling things like salvation assurance etc.. and to include purgatorial rites in death to make a buck.
Do not get me wrong, there are alot of Born again Catholics, but there is alot of catholic doctrine that is not based in the scriptures of Bible.
In Psalms 119- It talks much of the high authority of the word of God (the Bible).
(Psa 119:11) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
(Psa 119:33) HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
(Psa 119:34) Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
(Psa 119:89) For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
(Psa 119:105) Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
We as Christians are like soldiers and our Commander is Jesus and the book we live by and defend by is the Bible and not the traditions of men.
(Eph 6:10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
(Eph 6:11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
(Eph 6:12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(Eph 6:13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(Eph 6:14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(Eph 6:15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
(Eph 6:16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
(Eph 6:17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
(Eph 6:18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
(Eph 6:19) And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
(Eph 6:20) For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
(Eph 6:21) But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:
(Eph 6:22) Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that ye might know our affairs, and that he might comfort your hearts.
(Eph 6:23) Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Eph 6:24) Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.
In the book of 2 Timothy chapter 3 Paul the apostle urges us as believers of the Lord Jesus Christ to abide in the security of the scriptures alone.
(2Ti 3:14) But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
(2Ti 3:15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(2Ti 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2Ti 3:17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
In the book of the Philippians it is concluded to build on things of value and what are sure and not on things that rip you apart.
(Phi 4:8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
(Phi 4:9) Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
(Phi 4:10) But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
(Phi 4:11) Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
(Phi 4:12) I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
(Phi 4:13) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
(Phi 4:14) Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
Do not worry about purgatory, study God's word and live by it. Purgatory has no scriptural basis. It is a tradion of man. When Jesus the Christ arose from the death- It made approaching God thru Jesus easy. When you pick up the phone dial the number John3:16. It is you contacting Him. After all His word has reach down to us via the prophets of old.
Apostle Paul said it best: Romans 10:8-11
(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Sarah- May the Lord Bless you and keep you- may you find comfort and guidance in the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ- Amen
in Christ,
Eduardo
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
sarah89
New Member
Member # 6045
|
posted
Maybe there are some Catholics out there, or anyone at all who can answer this first question for me. My understanding is that Jesus' death of the cross cleared our debts as sinners. It was a free gift, and we don't have to pay anything for that gift, it was just handed to us. So, I don't quite understand the concept of Purgatory. I know that it is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, but many Catholics have told me that it's mentioned indirectly and that us Christians are just overlooking it because we don't want to believe it exists. Could someone explain to me the basis of the belief in Purgatory?
Next, I'm in high school, and everyday I hear people constantly questioning what I believe, and making fun of what I believe. I don't feel like my faith is strong enough to stand up to these people. Their doubts quickly become my doubts. Does anyone know of any Bible verses or ideas that could help me deal with this? And what should I say to them in return?
Lastly, I find that I'm actually very afraid of death. I know what Jesus did for me, and I accepted that a long time ago, but death is still so unknown that it's scary. It's easy to question whether or not heaven really exists, because it seems way too good to be true. How can I manage to divert these doubts and turn them into something good for Christ?
Thanks.
Sarah
Posts: 2 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
