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Topic: Disquisitive's Question Corner
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Disowning Religious Instruction (Jeremiah 5:11-13)
The false prophets comforted the people in their vain belief; such prophets become “wind”; they speak from themselves, and the emptiness of their prophecies falls upon their own heads. Jeremiah states that God’s omnipotence will not enforce moral truth upon an unwilling mind; there must be an open mind and heart before the truth of God can be received. A scaled mind refuses to be instructed, and a prejudiced mind can only see along the line of its prejudices. Beware of saying, “I will never be in that state of mind.” Any state of mind possible to any human being is possible in every human being.
Chambers, O. (1999, c1936). Notes on Jeremiah (electronic ed.). London: Oswald Chambers Publication Association, Ltd.
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nan29
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Disquisitive,
Belief in Jesus is done by faith, this is true, just like all other religions, but if one is skeptical and searches the truth, there is a mountain of evidence that Jesus existed and He did what the gospels said He did and there were witnesses to these events. Christianity is the only religion that can be proven.
Jesus set himself apart from the others who claimed to be the Messiah. He knew that He would have to perform miracles to get people to believe in him. He knew he had to fulfill the prophecies. Many had come before Him but could not fulfill the prophecies (especially being crucified). Jesus could’ve easily just come and said I am the Messiah and spread the word of God and left it at that. He is the only person to come and say he was God and prove it by performing miracles and be resurrected. No other religion has someone like Jesus. Most religions preach beliefs or the word of God but Christianity is the only one that is backed by miracles and there were thousands of witnesses to these miracles and these witnesses documented what they saw and the documents were authenticated. No one in Jesus’ time could deny what He did. The Jews admitted that he performed incredible acts but they attributed it to sorcery; they could’ve denied he did anything at all, but they didn’t. The Romans admitted that the tomb was empty. They could’ve said it wasn’t. The tomb was heavily guarded because they feared that Jesus’ disciples would steal the body. There was no way the Romans were going to let that happen so they placed several guards day and night. But the tomb was empty, this they couldn’t deny. Jesus fulfilled more than 360 Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah.
If you’re having trouble accepting Jesus by faith, research the evidence. There are many people who found Jesus this way. Your questions and concerns are valid but as I said before if Jesus is real, then believing and trusting in Him becomes the only thing that matters. We also have to trust that God has a plan for bringing people to Him. I don't think He would condemn those that were born without a choice or of no knowledge of Jesus. I trust He has a plan.
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
Thanks, Ahar, that was much more what I was looking for. But I'm still a little bit confused.
For instance, it has occured to me that not everyone has free will. What of the psychopath? It seems rather unfortunate that they are born only to burn. And in the meantime, God has created people who are destined to be saved from the day they are born. What I'm trying to say is -
If we all have free will, then what causes some of us to chose wrongly while others chose correctly? I can only think of two reasons;
He made us differently (like in the case of a psychopath)
He gave us different lives to experience (as would be the case of a Chinese man who was never given an opportunity to learn about Jesus)
Does this not seem unjust? I cannot see how a God would create men flawed and then punish them for it. I understand that we have free will, but some people start out with a huge advantage while others seem to suffer from an impossible disadvantage.
Hi mate
Back from weekend, so I thought I'd pop in and write that post I promised in my lunch hour.
The second reason you give throws up a whole bunch of issues around pre-destination (the idea that God has mapped out your life before you are born) and the issue of what happens to the people who never had the chance to hear the word of God (isolated rainforest tribes etc). I won't go into those here, but start another thread if you're interested.
Nobody is 'born to burn' - the path that they choose is up to them. Even true sociopaths are not guaranteed to become killers from birth - it takes the actions of others and a choice of their own to do this. Even then, they are not without hope - at any time they can choose to ask to be forgiven.
It is true however that different people are given different challenges in life, some more than others, and these are partly a result of who they are and the experiences other people have given them. It's a difficult final message for this, but if a serial child murderer truly repents and some who you may think of as leading a 'blameless life' does not, the serial child murderer will ber saved and the other person not
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Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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In all major religions, the followers strive to rid themselves of sin through various practices. They may pray in a prescribed way, do various good works, deny themselves legitimate sexual pleasure, follow dietary restrictions, lie on beds of nails, etc. The uniqueness of Jesus is shown in His statement, "The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins." No other religious leader has ever made this claim. Jesus Christ alone can wash away every sin anyone has ever committed, be-cause of what He did on the cross. By paying the penalty for our sin, He can release us from the torture of guilt. We cannot do anything in the way of religious works to wash away our sins. Forgiveness is a free gift of God (Ephesians 2:8,9). To see what "religion" does (or rather doesn’t do), see Romans 7:24-25 says.
"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3). Most people believe in God, even Satan does. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him. We must trust in Jesus with everything we have and everything we do. "We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this way, no matter who we are or what we have done" (Romans 3:22). The Bible teaches that there is no other way to salvation than through Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
Jesus is the only way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23). No other religion teaches the depth or seriousness of sin and its consequences. No other religion offers the infinite payment of sin that only Jesus Christ could provide. No other “religious founder” was God become man (John 1:1,14) – the only way an infinite debt could be paid. Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Jesus Christ is the only one that has raised from the dead.
Although Scripture does not attempt to "prove" that Jesus was raised from the dead, it does present conclusive evidence that He was in fact resurrected. Christ’s resurrection is recorded in Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53 and John 20:1-21:25. The resurrected Christ also appeared in the Book of Acts (Acts 1:1-11). From these passages you can gain several "proofs" of Christ’s resurrection. Look at the dramatic change in the disciples. They went from scared and hiding in a room, to courageous and sharing the Gospel throughout the world. What else could explain this dramatic change other than the risen Christ appearing to them?
Look at the life of the Apostle Paul. What changed him from being a persecutor of the church into an apostle for the church? It was when the risen Christ appeared to him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-6). Another convincing "proof" is the empty tomb. If Christ wasn’t raised, then where is His body? The disciples and others saw the tomb where He was buried. When they returned, His body was not there. Angels declared that He had been raised from the dead as He had promised (Matthew 28:5-7). Yet another evidence of His resurrection is the many people He appeared to (Matthew 28:5,9,16-17; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:13-35; John 20:19,24,26-29; 21:1-14; Acts 1:6-8; 1 Corinthians 15:5-7).
The key passage on Christ’s resurrection is 1 Corinthians 15. In this chapter, the Apostle Paul explains why it is crucial to understand and believe in Christ’s resurrection. The resurrection is important for the following reasons: (1) If Christ was not raised from the dead, believers will not be either (1 Corinthians 15:12-15). (2) If Christ was not raised from the dead, His sacrifice for sin was not sufficient (1 Corinthians 15:16-19). Jesus’ resurrection proved that His death was accepted by God as the atonement for our sins. If He had simply died and stayed dead, that would indicate His sacrifice was not sufficient. As a result, believers would not be forgiven for their sins, and they would still remain dead after they die (1 Corinthians 15:16-19) – there would be no such thing as eternal life (John 3:16). "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep" (1 Corinthians 15:20 NAS). Christ has been raised from the dead – He is the first fruits of our resurrection.
(3) All those who believe in Him will be raised to eternal life just as He was (1 Corinthians 15:20-23). 1 Corinthians 15 goes on to describe how Christ’s resurrection proves His victory over sin, and provides us the power to live victoriously over sin (1 Corinthians 15:24-34). (4) It describes the glorious nature of the resurrection body we will receive (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). (5) It proclaims that as a result of Christ’s resurrection, all who believe in Him have ultimate victory over death (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). What a glorious truth the resurrection of Christ is! "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
The whole "We can't comprehend God's Plan," argument (if one could call it that) is used by every religion I've studied so far, beleive it or not; Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Christians *all* use it. And I tend to agree - if there is a God (or gods in the case of Hinduism) then we probably never would ever be able to comprehend them or their actions. But since all religions tend to use this as defence against reasonable criticism, I've become numb to the point.
All may use it, but in Christianity if it is used, it is used in error. Everything that GOd has done for mankind has been to get man to the place of knowing HIM and understanding HIM. In Christianity when we experience the re-birth we receive the mind of Christ. Christianity teaches that man ... carnal un-regenerate man is incapable of knowing GOd, because ONLY the spirit of Gpd can know and comprehend the things of God, but every thing that GOd has done has been for to give us that spirit and reconcile us to HIM and to HIS life from which we have been alienated by sin.
quote:
God should at least give us enough information to be able to chose the right religion, shouldn't he? Or if that is not the case, then he should at least go easy on us if we make the wrong choice (eternity in a lake of fire seems kinda harsh).
God cannot go easy on us. God who is HOLY and JUST cannot do something that is unholy and unjust. We do not chose GOD; GOD choses us. GOD choses to reveal himself to man and when man realizes that GOD is GOD, man bows because GOD is worthy of our bowing.. our humility our respect, worship and honor. THere is no man who has seen GOD and known that HE IS GOD and not bowed. Believing in Christ is not about CHOOSING CHristianty... it is about realizing that we are not god and cannot save ourselves and we need saving because we have sinned and are damned and without GOD and without hope, except that HE loves us and extends his hand to us. It is not about choosing Christianity it is about choosing life. If you were drowing and I threw you a life boat you would not say... gee should I choose your life boat or wait for another... you would grab the life boat and give thanks... the reason you have not grabbed Jesus is because you are not sufficiently convinced that you are drowning and cannot save yourself.... every other religion in the world relys on man to save himself!
quote:
Since all religions are based upon faith, it seems the only way to tell which one is true is to go by what your heart tells you - but the case with me is that I seem to be torn between each religion.
This is so true! All religions including atheism and humanism are based on faith... the problem is ONLY Christianity requires your faith to be in something that is greater than yourself. The origin of sin is pride. Satan's problem is pride... he believes that he can be his own god... and your god as well. We have inherited that sin... the sin of pride that allows us to put our faith in things that cannot be trusted or relied upon namely self. Faith in anything except GOd is faith ill placed and is a faith that can fail us.
quote:
True, some (Christianity and Buddhism in particular) seem more correct then others (Hinduism and Islam) but I can see truths to them all, and I have felt a fire within me while studying each of them. What Mormons call "A burning in your bosom" other Christians say that they "feel Jesus in their heart" - this is universal! Hindus and Buddhists - Pagans and Shintoists and Sikhists - they all feel it! So how can it prove one religion over another?? That is my delema, having personally felt it under many different influences.
Christianity is not about a feeling in your heart or your gut... it is not about feelings at all in fact Christianity teaches us that our feelings are based on emotions and things that are part of the soulish part of man... they are subjective and cannot be trusted. You are correct you can get that feeling by learning to control your breathing or walking on hot coals or participating in a sweat or any number of things from meditating to chanting and 10 things in between but feelings are based in this realm .. on things that can change. God does not change. God is not a feeling. God is truth. Feelings cannot save you from hell; feelings can not change your life unless you let them, desire them to, feelings are subjective.
Budhism cannot save you. You cannot rid yourself of desires... the very desire to rid yourself of desire is a desire! The fact that we desire is not the problem. The problem is that because of sin we desire things that are not what GOd desires and thus faulty... not good for us. The solution is not to rid ourselves of desire, but to desire what GOD desires for GOD alone desires perfectly! GOD through his HOLY SPirit and Christ changes us that we desire the things that GOD desires because we become one with HIM. THis is the re-birth. It does not rely on man (self) to save ourselves by riding ourselves of our desires (this is works and it requires faith in self) Faith in a less than perfect creature is ill placed faith. Budhism cannot work.
Hindusim! If Hinduism were successfull, would 3 billion people be living under a caste system that keeps them in poverty and lack and filth. IF you could wash away yours sins by bathing in the polluted ganges river or by appeasing the god of the Ganges, then why why do parents sell their children into slave labor as early as the age of 4 or five to gain money to feed themselves? Why in one of the most naturally beautiful and diverse places on the planet are 3 billion people living as animals without running water or basic sanitation or enough food to eat and dying of dieases and living lives of hopeless dispair and oppression never even knowing what it is to be loved just because you are human? IF God is in everything then GOD is no more GOD. GOd is become common. God created everything. God is not in everything. God I assure you is appauled that men die of diease carried by rats that run rampant because no one would dare kill a rat for in it is GOD! God did not desire man to worship the creation God desires man to worship the creator as only the creator is worthy of worship. The Hindu gods cannot save you.. you cannot work hard enough to appease them! They cannot be appeased enough to save you from sin because they are not GOD. God is the GOD of all GODS and there is one way to receive HIS grace and mercy and that is to place your faith in HIS CHRiST...which is to place your faith in HIM. HIS WORD ALONE is truth and HE will not share his glory with gods that are no gods.. HE is a jealous GOD and HE will not tollerate idolatry... it is sin and it will damn you to hell. Millions make pilgramige to Ganges to wash away their sins and they leave there every year with their sins and it is evidenced by their unchanged lives. ONLY JESUS can wash away your sins. ONLY HIS BLOOD IS SUFFICIENT TO pay for your sins. Hinduism does not save. All one has to do is look at the oppression of the Hindu people to see that Hinduism does not save... not in this life and surely not in the one to come. Talk to a young teen woman from an unscheduled caste in Uttar Pradesh who is cursed by her family and unloved all her life sent to the streets to sell her body in the sex trade where she abused and used and desires to kill herself for her life is so hopeless and tell me that Hinduism can save you!
Islam cannot save you. Islam requires you to work to save yourself and you cannot work hard enough to be good enough to be acceptable to God if you could live good enough to be acceptable to God you do not need a GOD. Islam is not a religion of peace or unconditional love. It is a religion of oppression. It is a relgion of violence. It is a religion that is not based on love but on fear. It is a religion of contradiction. Allah is not the God of Abraham. Allah cannot save your soul from the wages of your sin and much of what men do to appease Allah is sin in the eyes of the ONE true GOD.
There is ONE GOD who is creator of all heaven and earth and all that is in them, and there is one way to receive HIS mercy and Grace and that way is through belief in the Savior JESUS Christ, HIS only begotten SON, whom HE sent to die on the cross to pay the debt of your sin. Repent and turn from your sin and call on HIM and you shall have life everlasting and not perish.
He loves you and HE extends to you a life raft... do you know that you are drowning?
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nan29
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I hope the books will help you. They're really very fascinating and well written. Lee Strobel was a journalist, so he asked very probing questions.
I think we tend to believe what we want to believe and if we believe strongly enough we will feel it in our hearts, even if it’s not true. When a person is lost, they want to make sense of things to help them through life, they pick a religion and become a believer because for the moment it fills a void in their life, but the true test comes when that religion isn’t enough and they need to keep looking and find something else. The “right” religion should be enough. I think different religions have something to offer everyone but only one will be complete, in that you wouldn’t need anything else. I think God has given us information to choose the right religion but remember since evil exists in the world, its main goal is to confuse people and ruin God’s plan. Try talking to God, not of any particular religion, just a supreme being and ask him to reveal himself to you so that you can choose correctly. Ask him to help you know the truth. He may talk to you in a dream or through another person but somehow, he will communicate with you. A few years ago, I was in a bad place emotionally and I needed to know who I could turn to. I wasn’t into Christianity as much as I am now, but sitting on the train, I asked God, who can I turn to, I literally turned my head and a girl next to me had a magazine and next to the page she was reading was a full length picture of Jesus Christ. That was my answer! So ask the question with all your heart and wait for the response.
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Disquisitive
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Thanks Nan, I really like to get feedback - so far this forum has been very accepting of me (in other communities I have been ignored or worse - banned) - I'd just like to say to everyone who has taken the time how I appreciate it.
The whole "We can't comprehend God's Plan," argument (if one could call it that) is used by every religion I've studied so far, beleive it or not; Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Christians *all* use it. And I tend to agree - if there is a God (or gods in the case of Hinduism) then we probably never would ever be able to comprehend them or their actions. But since all religions tend to use this as defence against reasonable criticism, I've become numb to the point. God should at least give us enough information to be able to chose the right religion, shouldn't he? Or if that is not the case, then he should at least go easy on us if we make the wrong choice (eternity in a lake of fire seems kinda harsh).
I haven't read the books you mention, but I will look into them - they certainly sound interesting.
Since all religions are based upon faith, it seems the only way to tell which one is true is to go by what your heart tells you - but the case with me is that I seem to be torn between each religion. True, some (Christianity and Buddhism in particular) seem more correct then others (Hinduism and Islam) but I can see truths to them all, and I have felt a fire within me while studying each of them. What Mormons call "A burning in your bosom" other Christians say that they "feel Jesus in their heart" - this is universal! Hindus and Buddhists - Pagans and Shintoists and Sikhists - they all feel it! So how can it prove one religion over another??
That is my delema, having personally felt it under many different influences.
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nan29
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I just want to emphasize the point, that if you believe that Jesus Christ is real, then His words are real and if His words are real, you have to heed them. I have to admit, I wish there were some things He didn't say, but I believe in Him so I follow His word (even if at times it's difficult, even if I fail at times). I've investigated other religions, but they were all just religions, and as people here have said, Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's all about Him! Once we believe in Him, we have to take a leap of faith and trust HIM. I often have a lot of questions myself but it doesn't stop me from having a relationship with Him because I know He exists and He must have His reasons. The author I mentioned earlier, Lee Strobel also wrote the Case for Faith and the Case for a Creator. If you want, seek Jesus intelligently, these books are a good start. Then you will come to know Him intimately because where you look for Him, He will find you and you will come out of it a believer too! Have an open heart, so He'll have place to enter.
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nan29
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Hi Disquisitive,
There is a great book called "The Case for Christ". The author is Lee Strobel. He was an athiest and holds a law degree from Yale University. He investigated Christ objectively and came out of it a believer. After reading what he discovered, you might feel the same way. You have many questions about God, but honestly, we may never know all the answers. It's not up to us to know why God does what he does. If you investigate Christ for yourself and find out that He's real, your questions won't really matter. You have to trust that God knows what he's doing whether we understand it or not; or whether we agree with it or not. If you believe in Christ you simply have to have faith that in the end, someday, God will explain. So investigate Christ for yourself, if you look for Him, He will find you.
Nan ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Posts: 38 | From: New York | Registered: May 2006
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
First of all let me introduce myself;
as I am very open to the idea, I just need some convincing.
Again, please don't scorn me as has happened to me in several other Christian communities - I only wish to learn more about your religion.
First of all the Holy Spirit will only call you so many times. If you hear the truth and continue to reject it you may not get another chance. Please watch the below:
Click Here to watch God's Three DEADLINES
Also once again knowing Jesus Christ is not a religion. If you want to really know Him then pray to God and repent of your sins and ask Jesus Christ to pay your sin dept, then and ask God to reveal Himself to you. If you really want to know Jesus Christ and if He is real, you must believe and want to know. If you are looking for religion that is about you then you are mostly likely not going to get to know Jesus Christ.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21
Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him - Psalm 25:14
God will choose you, you don't choose Him. If you hear His voice today and ignore it, then you may never ever get to know Him. This is not scorn but the truth and I only tell you this because I care. If I did not care I would say NOTHING.
God did not send His Son to die on a cross so we could decide if that was good enought for us and if we approve. He offers this as a free gift, if you decide not to take it because you don't understand everything, then you are the one that made the choice and reject God's gift of His only Son.
God sends no one to hell, if someone ends up there, they are the one that made the choice. We all will answer for ONLY ourself and no one else. And no one else will answer for you, but YOU.
Eternity is for ever and ever to make such a mistake of rejecting God's free gift of salvation.
You may want to take a look at the below website:
http://fishthe.net/good-person1.html
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
[qb] I'm not a Christian, but I used to be.
Mephisto,
Did you know the Lord?
First of all salvation is about knowing Jesus Christ and not religion.
Yes, I used to be a Lutheran.
I did not ask if you knew a form of religion. "I used to be a Lutheran" does not mean you ever knew the Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again did you know the Lord Jesus Christ?
.
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nan29
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Think of yourself as a parent, what gives you joy? When your children are good, of course, but how do you measure what “good” is? When there is another side -- evil. We cannot truly appreciate goodness unless there is something else to compare it to. It gives God joy to see us do well despite the ability to do wrong. He wants to know that we are good because we choose to do good not because He merely gave it to us with no choice. What would be the point of God creating people if we were to worship Him like robots? I would rather have a real live child (as opposed to a robot) who chooses to love me rather than one forced to love me, because there is no choice. It means more to me when my child loves me out of his own free will - not because he has to. God created us so we can bring Him joy – by our own free will.
HFHS – I loved your post!
![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi: first let me say that Christianity is not a religion. A religion is a group of things or practices that you do. Christianity is a relationship that we have with God and Christ.
Your question is one that I have asked God in prayer and in studying HIS word and I would like to share with you as briefly and simply as I can what I believe HE has led me to understand. I hope it will make sense to you and not seem too odd.
In the beginning when God created the first and woman, HE created them to have a relationship with him. We know this because the scriptures tell us that they walked with him in the garden... that is a kind of intimacy... to walk together.
But there was evil in the Garden of Eden. Why? Did GOd create evil? The scripture says that GOd created Evil. How does a God who is ONLY GOOD AND HOLY create Evil?
The answer is so obvious it alludes us with the sheer simplicity of it! God is good. The scripture tells us that thre is ONLY ONE THAT is Good and that is GOD.
So although GOD is ALL POWERFUL, there is one thing that God cannot create. That thing is GOD. God is unable to create GOD because GOD is not created... HE is without beginning or end. THe moment that GOD created man... that man was less than God and thus less that WHOLLY Good. Evil is thus present in the garden!
But GOD is also ALL Knowing... God knows the end from the beginning as GOD exisits beyond time. From HIS eyeview he sees the beginning and the end at the same time. Time is not linear to GOD, and so GOD knew that this was a problem and HE solved this problem before he ever laid the foundation of the world.
GOD had a plan... a plan of redemption from the beginning. A plan that would allow man to be not just created and thus not wholly good... but a plan that would allow man to be born of GOD and thus become wholly good, but also this plan would destroy evil in the process.
There is so much more to this than I caould show you in one post or maybe even 20, because this involves much study of the whole of scripture, but I will try to summerize.
Man in the garden sinned... that is that he disobeyed God. God had told them not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for in the day that they did they would die.
Up to this point they did not know anything but God and each other and the Bible says that they were created in his image.. so they looked like God to each other I suppose and they knew only Him and they did not know evil.
But when they ate from the tree they gained knowledge of evil. Personally, I believe that they saw that they were in some part evil... I say this because the scripture says that they were previously naked and not ashamed, but now they tried to hide themselves from God... to cover themselves with fig leaves... they must have felt shame... like something of themselves was not worthy to be in HIS presence.
God loved this man and this woman that he created and he knew that they would sin and that sin would separate them from HIM, but this was part of his plan.
God covered them with skins the Bible says and he sent them out of the garden that they would not eat of the tree of life and live forever in this state ashamed and separated from HIM by sin, but before he sent them out he cursed the ground for their sake. And he cursed the serpent that the serpent would eat the dust of the ground all his days.
This is important because we later learn that sin is passed from adam to all mankind through procreation and that sin lives in the flesh... thus when man dies the sin in his flesh becomes dust of the earth again and is devoured by the serpent that is the personification of evil. In this way the sin is being consumed and eventually one day the earth and the serpent will be destroyed.
But in the mean time there is evil. Why? Why did not God just destroy the serpent? why did GOD allow Satan to run rampant through the earth spreading evil?
Because God is JUST... Satan believes that he can be GOD. God will not destroy even Satan unjustly. God is given Satan the opportunity to do all that he will do and in the end Satan will have failed to be God and Satan will have to bow and acknowledge that GOD alone is GOD and God alone can be God and in that day, Satan can then be held accountible and justly so for his crimes.
Man is part of God's plan to JUSTLY condemn Satan and end his spreading of evil that began in the garden when he chose to deceive Eve that she would disobey God and cause her husband to eat as well.
From the foundation of the world; Christ was at the center of God's plan. God plan from the foundation of the world was that he would manifest himself in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth, who would be born as a man is born but without sin, and would live and die a sacrificial death for the propitiation of our sins, but because HE had no sin, death had no right to him and so GOd would raise him. And through HIM we can have eternal life.
See we are born with sin we inheritied from Adam. Then if we live we eventually come to sin ourselves. The wage of sin is death. But when we die we can only die once... we only have one life to pay the wage of sin with. When I die I can pay for my sin with my death, but I cannot give another life for the sin of Adam in me. I need another life to give for the sin of Adam in me. I need Jesus. Jesus's death paid for the sins of Adam in mankind. THus when I doe my life can pay for the sin I commmit.... but that still leaves me dead! I need a savior! I need Jesus!
Jesus did not only die for to pay the price of sin for me, but HE also arose from the grave! The Spirit of GOD raised HIM up and glorified HIM and God has promised that HE will do the same for me because I believe.
See belief is by faith.... I have faith that God is true to HIS word. Because I believe God gives to me Grace and mercy and creates in me a new creature. This new creature is a Spirit creature that is born of the Spirit of God.
This is a fantastic thing because this new creature is not of the earth and not subject to the authority of Satan... in this life I am now able to walk in the spirit and not the flesh. I am now able to resist evil and the flesh and the sin in my flesh and the lusts of the flesh have no power over me. I am no longer alienated from God in my mind and there is no shame between us. I can now know the things of GOd and HIS spirit within me can direct my paths. So I have peace and Joy and Power in this life in the Holy Ghost no matter my earthly circumstance and God works all things for my good and HIS glory (thus the works of the devil are destroyed); but not only this when this body dies and turns to dust that is nothing more than serpent food, my spiritual body is raised and I am forever in the presence of God!
In the end, Satan is destroyed...evil is destroyed... he has in essence destroyed his own house. Eventually, even he will have to face that and then God will justly destroy him.
LEt me say that these things are interesting things to contemplate, but there is something much more important to comtemplate... you can ask God about these things anytime you want.
But what is most important is this:
You and every other human being alive is born with sin and that sin has damened you to eternal hell. You do not have two lives to pay for your own sins and the sin of Adam too. Thus your soul at the time of the death of your body will suffer punishment in hell and eternal separation from God if you do not come to understand that you are a sinner and you need God.
You must acknowledge your sin and you must repent of it and ask God to save you. IF you will call on HIM he will answer you. If you will believe that HE sent HIS ONLY begotten SON to pay the price of sin for you, HE will send HIS spirit to you to create in you a new creature and give you eternal life, reconcilling you to Himself.
There is nothing more important than this. None of us knows when we will take our last breath. You must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and God and Christ. You must acknowledge your sin, repent, and be baptised in the name of Jesus and by the Holy Ghost believing that Christ died to pay the price of sin for you and rose that you may also rise to eternal life.
Any thing else that you want to know you can know after that. That is the most important thing that you need to know right now.
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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roseofkaren23
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quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
First of all let me introduce myself;
As my name suggests I am very curious about the Christian church but at the same time I'm a little bit skeptical - however, please don't stereotype me as the average unbeliever, as I am very open to the idea, I just need some convincing.
I have dedicated the last few years of my life to studying different religions of the world, including several types of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and many others. To tell you the truth, I am actually most attracted to eastern religions such as Buddhism, but given that my eternal being is at stake I am willing to give every religion my best shot, if that is at all possible.
Since I live in the Bible Belt area of the US, Christianity has always come back to me - however, most of my friends and relatives have been unable to answer my questions. So I came here, thinking you guys might be able to help. (I'm effectively begging to be converted.) Please don't mistake my questions as offensive or overly critical - I am genuinely curious and thirst for answers.
Let's start with my fundamental problem with Christianity. The paraphrase Epicurus, "Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then why is there evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
Again, please don't scorn me as has happened to me in several other Christian communities - I only wish to learn more about your religion.
Posts: 1 | From: Texas City, Texas | Registered: Jun 2006
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Disquisitive
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Originally posted by Duane:
Disquisitive: If people were unable to choose between good or evil, then we would be no more than mindless automatons. God could derive no pleasure from our worship of him if it was not by our choice. Neither could we truly love God if we didn't have the option of hating Him. There is no such thing as a one-sided coin! Evil exists because we have a choice.
God is all-powerful - if needed he could make a way for us to have free-will and not cause harm to others at the same time. If he can do this but choses not to then is he not inherently malevolent?
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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Duane
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Disquisitive: If people were unable to choose between good or evil, then we would be no more than mindless automatons. God could derive no pleasure from our worship of him if it was not by our choice. Neither could we truly love God if we didn't have the option of hating Him. There is no such thing as a one-sided coin! Evil exists because we have a choice.
Mephisto: From your postings I deduce that you believe in what's commonly referred to as Humanism(that is,that man is the ultimate authority, and can decide individually what is right or wrong for them personally). Follow through with the logic of that philosophy: if someone didn't believe that it was wrong for them to murder, then is it acceptable for you to prosecute them if they killed your family? No--because law is a legislation of a moral code. You would be passing judgement upon them based on a moral code that they don't believe in. What if they raped your sister? Stole all of your goods? If each person is free to determine their own moral code, instead of relying upon the absolutes of a moral code(God's Laws), then there is no law and chaos will reign. Man, given the option outside of a moral code, will choose evil because man is inherently evil. Don't believe so? Why do you have keys? Just some thoughts to ponder!
Duane
Posts: 5 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Apr 2006
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TEXASGRANDMA
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But did you have a personal relationship with God? I am Baptist, but being Baptist did not save me. I can attend my Baptist Church till I die and go to hell if I was not saved.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Mephisto
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Originally posted by David:
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
[qb] I'm not a Christian, but I used to be.
Mephisto,
Did you know the Lord?
First of all salvation is about knowing Jesus Christ and not religion.
Yes, I used to be a Lutheran.
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ahar
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Originally posted by Disquisitive:
[Thanks, Ahar, that was much more what I was looking for. But I'm still a little bit confused.
For instance, it has occured to me that not everyone has free will. What of the psychopath? It seems rather unfortunate that they are born only to burn. And in the meantime, God has created people who are destined to be saved from the day they are born. What I'm trying to say is -
If we all have free will, then what causes some of us to chose wrongly while others chose correctly? I can only think of two reasons;
He made us differently (like in the case of a psychopath)
He gave us different lives to experience (as would be the case of a Chinese man who was never given an opportunity to learn about Jesus)
Does this not seem unjust? I cannot see how a God would create men flawed and then punish them for it. I understand that we have free will, but some people start out with a huge advantage while others seem to suffer from an impossible disadvantage.
I do have some ideas on this, but I'm just about to run out the door for the weekend - I'll post again Sunday night!
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Disquisitive
Community Member
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Originally posted by ahar:
Don't believe in starting easy, do you? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Evil unfortunately exists because of free will. We can make the choice to believe in God and follow him, or not. This makes us who we are, gives us the ability to create great and beautiful things, to inspire each other and experience happiness. Without this we would be robots, unable to make choices and live. There is no greater gift than love freely given and received - we can do this as we have free will.
Unfortunately, the consequence of this is that there is a choice - we can choose to kill, hate, maim, murder and make the world a generally miserable place.
We cannot have one without the other - that is God's great gift and great burden on us.
This usually leads people to think that it may explain human caused suffering, but what about naturally caused suffering - diseases, natural disasters etc. This can be thought of in the same way - the very processes that make our planet a fantastic place to live can also sometimes cause problems. The same processes that cause earthquakes also gives us mountains, volcanic eruptions kill but also create life through enriching the soil with minerals and providing heat at hydrothermal vents in the deep ocean. Viruses and bacteria can be positive as well as negative, like those that live in the lower intestine and help you digest your food.
It is a concept very similar to the Eastern philosophy of Ying and Yang - we cannot have one without the other. You can relate this to your own life - if you find someone you love and then marry, you experience happiness and fulfilment, but you are also setting yourself up for a fall, as there will come a time that you may have to live without them, either through death or the breakup of the relationship.
In times of loss, these words can ring hollow, but I think they are neatly summed up by the words of Queen Elizabeth II (current Queen of Britain) at the funeral of her mother in 2002:
"Grief is the price we pay for love".
I hope this is useful[ - I am not a great theological scholar, and I am sure that there are several bible quotes that can be used to illustrate this.
Thanks, Ahar, that was much more what I was looking for. But I'm still a little bit confused.
For instance, it has occured to me that not everyone has free will. What of the psychopath? It seems rather unfortunate that they are born only to burn. And in the meantime, God has created people who are destined to be saved from the day they are born. What I'm trying to say is -
If we all have free will, then what causes some of us to chose wrongly while others chose correctly? I can only think of two reasons;
He made us differently (like in the case of a psychopath)
He gave us different lives to experience (as would be the case of a Chinese man who was never given an opportunity to learn about Jesus)
Does this not seem unjust? I cannot see how a God would create men flawed and then punish them for it. I understand that we have free will, but some people start out with a huge advantage while others seem to suffer from an impossible disadvantage.
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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Disquisitive
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posted
-sorry, must've hit add twice or something,; see below-
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
First of all let me introduce myself;
As my name suggests I am very curious about the Christian church but at the same time I'm a little bit skeptical - however, please don't stereotype me as the average unbeliever, as I am very open to the idea, I just need some convincing.
I have dedicated the last few years of my life to studying different religions of the world, including several types of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and many others. To tell you the truth, I am actually most attracted to eastern religions such as Buddhism, but given that my eternal being is at stake I am willing to give every religion my best shot, if that is at all possible.
Since I live in the Bible Belt area of the US, Christianity has always come back to me - however, most of my friends and relatives have been unable to answer my questions. So I came here, thinking you guys might be able to help. (I'm effectively begging to be converted.) Please don't mistake my questions as offensive or overly critical - I am genuinely curious and thirst for answers.
Let's start with my fundamental problem with Christianity. The paraphrase Epicurus, "Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then why is there evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
Don't believe in starting easy, do you?
Evil unfortunately exists because of free will. We can make the choice to believe in God and follow him, or not. This makes us who we are, gives us the ability to create great and beautiful things, to inspire each other and experience happiness. Without this we would be robots, unable to make choices and live. There is no greater gift than love freely given and received - we can do this as we have free will.
Unfortunately, the consequence of this is that there is a choice - we can choose to kill, hate, maim, murder and make the world a generally miserable place.
We cannot have one without the other - that is God's great gift and great burden on us.
This usually leads people to think that it may explain human caused suffering, but what about naturally caused suffering - diseases, natural disasters etc. This can be thought of in the same way - the very processes that make our planet a fantastic place to live can also sometimes cause problems. The same processes that cause earthquakes also gives us mountains, volcanic eruptions kill but also create life through enriching the soil with minerals and providing heat at hydrothermal vents in the deep ocean. Viruses and bacteria can be positive as well as negative, like those that live in the lower intestine and help you digest your food.
It is a concept very similar to the Eastern philosophy of Ying and Yang - we cannot have one without the other. You can relate this to your own life - if you find someone you love and then marry, you experience happiness and fulfilment, but you are also setting yourself up for a fall, as there will come a time that you may have to live without them, either through death or the breakup of the relationship.
In times of loss, these words can ring hollow, but I think they are neatly summed up by the words of Queen Elizabeth II (current Queen of Britain) at the funeral of her mother in 2002:
"Grief is the price we pay for love".
I hope this is useful[ - I am not a great theological scholar, and I am sure that there are several bible quotes that can be used to illustrate this.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
I'm not a Christian, but I used to be.
Mephisto,
Did you know the Lord?
First of all salvation is about knowing Jesus Christ and not religion.
Saying you are a Christian now days don't mean much, because there are more false Christian's then true ones. A lot of people just think they are born a Christian, some say a pray or follow a ritual like walking down to the front of a church buildings, or being baptized. But none of these things make you a Christian. The only way to have salvation is to be born-again. That means to give up ones life to Jesus Christ and come to know Him. Anyone that claims to be a Christian and does not know Him is just fooling himself or herself. It is all about Jesus Christ and without Him none will be saved. It is not about knowing about Him but in actually knowing Him.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21
Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him - Psalm 25:14
Until we come to realize that life is about Jesus Christ and not about us, we will never come to know Him.
It is not about knowing about Jesus Christ, it is about putting Him on.
Think about it this way. Two men are seated in a plane. The first is given a parachute and told to put is on as it would improve his flight. He’s a little skeptical at first because he can’t see how wearing a parachute in a plane could possibly improve the flight. After a time he decides to experiment and see if the claim is true. As he puts it on he notices the weight of it upon his shoulders and he finds that he has difficulty in sitting upright. However, he consoles himself with the fact that he was told the parachute would improve the flight. So, he decides to give the thing a little time. As he waits he notices that some of the other passengers are laughing at him, because he’s wearing a parachute in a plane. He begins to feel somewhat humiliated. As they begin to point and laugh at him and he can stand it no longer, he slinks in his seat, unstraps the parachute, and throws it to the floor. Disillusionment and bitterness fill his heart, because, as far as he was concerned, he was told an outright lie.
The second man is given a parachute, but listen to what he’s told. He’s told to put it on because at any moment he’d be jumping 25,000 feet out of the plane. He gratefully puts the parachute on; he doesn’t notice the weight of it upon his shoulders, nor that he can’t sit upright. His mind is consumed with the thought of what would happen to him if he jumped without that parachute.
Let’s analyze the motive and the result of each passenger’s experience. The first man’s motive for putting the parachute on was solely to improve his flight. The result of his experience was that he was humiliated by the passengers; he was disillusioned and somewhat embittered against those who gave him the parachute. As far as he’s concerned it’ll be a long time before anyone gets one of those things on his back again. The second man put the parachute on solely to escape the jump to come, and because of his knowledge of what would happen to him without it, he has a deep-rooted joy and peace in his heart knowing that he’s saved from sure death. This knowledge gives him the ability to withstand the mockery of the other passengers. His attitude towards those who gave him the parachute is one of heart-felt gratitude.
Now listen to what the modern gospel says. It says, “Put on the Lord Jesus Christ. He’ll give you love, joy, peace, fulfillment, and lasting happiness.” In other words, “Jesus will improve your flight.” So the sinner responds, and in an experimental fashion, puts on the Savior to see if the claims are true. And what does he get? The promised temptation, tribulation, and persecution. The other passengers mock him. So what does he do? He takes off the Lord Jesus Christ, he’s offended for the word’s sake (Mark 4:17), he’s disillusioned and somewhat embittered, and quite rightly so. He was promised peace, joy, love, fulfillment, and lasting happiness, and all he got were trials and humiliation. His bitterness is directed toward those who gave him the so-called “good news”. His latter end becomes worse than the first: another inoculated and bitter backslider.
The body of Chirst, instead of preaching that Jesus improves the flight, should be warning the passengers they’re going have to jump out of the plane. That it’s “appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27). And when a sinner understands the horrific consequences of breaking God’s law, then he will flee to the Savior solely to escape the wrath that’s to come. And if we’re true and faithful witnesses, that’s what we’ll be preaching. That there is wrath to come; that God “commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). Why? “Because He has appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness” (vs. 31). You see, the issue isn’t one of happiness, but one of righteousness. It doesn’t matter how happy a sinner is, how much he’s enjoying “the pleasures of sin for a season” (Heb. 11:25). Without the righteousness of Christ, he’ll perish on the day of wrath. “Riches profit not on the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death” (Prov. 11:4). Peace and joy are legitimate fruits of salvation, but it’s not legitimate to use these fruits as a draw card for salvation.
Now, can you remember why the second passenger had joy and peace in his heart? It was because he knew that parachute was going to save him from sure death. And as a believer, I have, as Paul says, “joy and peace in believing” (Rom. 15:13), because I know that the righteousness of Christ is going to deliver me from the wrath that’s to come.
Now with that thought in mind, let’s take a close look at an incident on board the plane. We have a brand new stewardess. She’s carrying a tray of boiling hot coffee. It’s her first day; she wants to leave an impression on the passengers, and she certainly does. Because as she’s walking down the aisle, she trips over someone’s foot and slops that boiling hot coffee all over the lap of our second passenger. Now what’s his reaction as that boiling liquid hits his tender flesh? Does he go, “Ssssfffff! Man that hurt”? Mmm-hhh. He feels the pain. But then does he rip the parachute from his shoulders, throw it to the floor and say, “The stupid parachute!”? No. Why should he? He didn’t put the parachute on for a better flight. He put it on to save him from the jump to come. If anything, the hot coffee incident causes him to cling tighter to the parachute and even look forward to the jump.
Now if you and I have put on the Lord Jesus Christ for the right motive, to flee from the wrath that’s to come, when tribulation strikes, when the flight gets bumpy, we won’t get angry at God; we won’t lose our joy and peace. Why should we? We didn’t come to Jesus for a happy lifestyle: we came to flee from the wrath that’s to come. And if anything, tribulation drives the true believer closer to the Savior. And sadly we have literally multitudes of professing Christians who lose their joy and peace when the flight gets bumpy. Why? They’re the product of a man-centered gospel. They came lacking repentance, without which you can’t be saved.
Please think about it.
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KnowHim
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In Dr. Robert Morey’s book The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom, he talks with an atheist about this issue. The atheist assumes that everything is relative, and there are no absolutes (he is absolutely sure of that). Morey replies that the first thing an atheist must do is prove the existence of evil. By what process can an atheist identify evil? He must have a universal absolute to do so. Without an absolute reference point for "good" (which only God can provide), no one can identify what is good or evil. Thus without the existence of God, there is no "evil" or "good" in an absolute sense. Everything is relative. The problem of evil does not negate the existence of God. It actually requires it. Many assume that because evil still exists today, God has not dealt with it. How can atheists assume that God has not already solved the problem of evil in such a way that neither His good-ness nor omnipotence is limited? On what grounds do they limit what God can and cannot do to solve the problem? God has already solved the problem of evil. And He did it in a way in which He did not contradict His nature or the nature of man. We assume God will solve the problem of evil in one single act. But why can’t He deal with evil in a progressive way? Can’t He deal with it throughout time as we know it, and then bring it to the climax on the Day of Judgment? God sent His Son to die on the cross in order to solve the problem of evil. Christ atoned for evil and secured the eventual removal of all evil from the earth. One day evil will be quarantined in one spot called "hell." Then there will be a perfect world devoid of all evil. If God declared that all evil would, at this moment, cease to exist, you and I and all of humanity would go up in a puff of smoke. Divine judgment demands that sin be punished. Ron Meade
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
First of all let me introduce myself;
As my name suggests I am very curious about the Christian church but at the same time I'm a little bit skeptical - however, please don't stereotype me as the average unbeliever, as I am very open to the idea, I just need some convincing.
I have dedicated the last few years of my life to studying different religions of the world, including several types of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and many others. To tell you the truth, I am actually most attracted to eastern religions such as Buddhism, but given that my eternal being is at stake I am willing to give every religion my best shot, if that is at all possible.
Since I live in the Bible Belt area of the US, Christianity has always come back to me - however, most of my friends and relatives have been unable to answer my questions. So I came here, thinking you guys might be able to help. (I'm effectively begging to be converted.) Please don't mistake my questions as offensive or overly critical - I am genuinely curious and thirst for answers.
Let's start with my fundamental problem with Christianity. The paraphrase Epicurus, "Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then why is there evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
Again, please don't scorn me as has happened to me in several other Christian communities - I only wish to learn more about your religion.
I can give you an answer to your question about Evil in the world.
God created human beings in His image. We have a free will and He created us to be able to Love Him of our own decision and not of compulsion.
Human beings are given dominion over the animals and the earth by God. Read Genesis chap 1-3.
Human beings brought Evil into the world through sin. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and doubted Him and believed the serpent, that they too could become as "gods". Through one man, Adam, sin came into the world..."
Human beings suddenly were faced with the curse of death. Adam and Eve began to die the day they sinned and in dying; died. As all humans beings are born to die.
Humans beings are given the choice of Life or death. We do have a free will and God will not make us Love Him nor will He make us Repent. It is our decision.
To be saved one needs to believe in Jesus Christ and the power of His Cross and Resurrection and Repent of (make a decision) to turn away from our former sinful life, and ask the Lord for forgiveness. Unless one repents, there can be no Salvation from sin. One repents and receives the Promise of Christ and His cross as the payment for your sins. His blood is the redeeming sacrifice that God Almighty accepts for our sins.
It's called being born again as in John chapter 3.
God Bless you.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mephisto
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Originally posted by Disquisitive:
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
I didn't notice the last part of your original thread. I'll try and address it to the best of my abilities.
The Christian god is supposed to have created Satan. So, he created both good and evil. God is also omnipotent, which means he could 'delete' evil at any point. Whether or that that makes him inherently evil is your call. The Bible says God is good, so, from a Christian viewpoint, in no way is God evil. Creating evil was part of his plan to 'test' us. For what purpose? I wouldn't know. I don't think the Bible says what's on God's mind.
Does that answer your query?
Please, don't DA for me. I want an answer, and if it's coming from some one who doesn't beleive in the answer they are giving then how can you expect me to beleive it?
So, you're unhappy with me providing a philosophical answer, and now you're unhappy with me providing a Christian answer? You aren't easily pleased, my Russian friend.
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Disquisitive
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posted
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Originally posted by Mephisto:
I didn't notice the last part of your original thread. I'll try and address it to the best of my abilities.
The Christian god is supposed to have created Satan. So, he created both good and evil. God is also omnipotent, which means he could 'delete' evil at any point. Whether or that that makes him inherently evil is your call. The Bible says God is good, so, from a Christian viewpoint, in no way is God evil. Creating evil was part of his plan to 'test' us. For what purpose? I wouldn't know. I don't think the Bible says what's on God's mind.
Does that answer your query?
Please, don't DA for me. I want an answer, and if it's coming from some one who doesn't beleive in the answer they are giving then how can you expect me to beleive it?
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mephisto
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I didn't notice the last part of your original thread. I'll try and address it to the best of my abilities.
The Christian god is supposed to have created Satan. So, he created both good and evil. God is also omnipotent, which means he could 'delete' evil at any point. Whether or that that makes him inherently evil is your call. The Bible says God is good, so, from a Christian viewpoint, in no way is God evil. Creating evil was part of his plan to 'test' us. For what purpose? I wouldn't know. I don't think the Bible says what's on God's mind.
Does that answer your query?
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Mephisto
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Originally posted by Disquisitive:
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
"Meph" is not a nick-name?
I'm not interrupting you at all. I'm answering your response.
It is a **Nick** name, but you're missing the point. I came to this BBS to learn about Christianity. You came to proclaim your individuality as a satanist - Something I think is rather immature. So if you would please mind, unless you are going to answer my questions I can talk to you *elsewhere* if needs be. Right now I am very engrossed in squeezing some answers out of this BBS.
I didn't come here to trumpet around anything. I've been discrete, I haven't attacked anyone, and I've only answered your original post as per my own opinions. You said you want answers, and I replied that it depends on what kind of answers you want.
I also replied that if you want Christian perspective, I remember what I was taught, and that I can answer questions you might have, if you simply ask.
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Disquisitive
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quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
I still have no idea what you're implying with the nick-name business, but that's irrelevent at the moment. However, it's hard to answer your questions when you haven't specified any. Perhaps you should?
I actually did. Perhaps you didn't see it?
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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Disquisitive
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
"Meph" is not a nick-name?
I'm not interrupting you at all. I'm answering your response.
It is a **Nick** name, but you're missing the point. I came to this BBS to learn about Christianity. You came to proclaim your individuality as a satanist - Something I think is rather immature. So if you would please mind, unless you are going to answer my questions I can talk to you *elsewhere* if needs be. Right now I am very engrossed in squeezing some answers out of this BBS.
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mephisto
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quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I don't think these verses are irrevlant. They explain why if a person goes to hell, it is there own fault.
betty
I already know that - I have actually read the Bible more than most Christians have, though I'm sure many of the members of this BBS can double or triple me.
I am very concerned about my eternal well-being. But I can't possibly beleive in Christ when there are so many unanswered questions in my heart. I have gone from Christian to Christian and I am getting quite frustrated. For 4 years now I have talked with hundreds of Christians and none can give me answers. I am on the brink of walking away - and I really don't want to do that. I want answers.... I *want* to be saved. So *please* - I only have one lifetime to make my choice unfortunately.
I was once a Christian, perhaps I can answer questions from a Christian perspective if you wish. What issues do you have? Assuming you've read the Bible, doesn't it say that you need to accept Christ through prayer and acceptance in your mind?
I still have no idea what you're implying with the nick-name business, but that's irrelevent at the moment. However, it's hard to answer your questions when you haven't specified any. Perhaps you should?
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Disquisitive
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I don't think these verses are irrevlant. They explain why if a person goes to hell, it is there own fault.
betty
I already know that - I have actually read the Bible more than most Christians have, though I'm sure many of the members of this BBS can double or triple me.
I am very concerned about my eternal well-being. But I can't possibly beleive in Christ when there are so many unanswered questions in my heart. I have gone from Christian to Christian and I am getting quite frustrated. For 4 years now I have talked with hundreds of Christians and none can give me answers. I am on the brink of walking away - and I really don't want to do that. I want answers.... I *want* to be saved. So *please* - I only have one lifetime to make my choice unfortunately.
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mephisto
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Originally posted by Disquisitive:
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Originally posted by Mephisto:
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Originally posted by Disquisitive:
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Originally posted by Mephisto:
I'd also like to give you some advice. Converting on a whim is a bad choice.
Meph (if that tells you anything) - I have dedicated the past few years to studying religions. I wouldn't call it a whim - there are simply questions that I have been pondering for a very long time that I was hoping to get answers for on this BBS. However, it looks like I may have been incorrect - so far TEXASGRANDMA has responded the same way everyone else has in everyother place I've gone searching for answers; dodging, quoting irrelevent verses. If I were to die tommorow and go to an eternal lake of fire.... well, I'm just trying to say that I want answers. I don't want the devil's main man giving me advice and I don't want dodged questions.
Can't you see I'm desperate?
Nick-naming my username is telling me something? If so, I fail to see the message.
If Christianity is what you want, convert. If you have doubts, then you have to find something you believe in. Perhaps it's not a religion, perhaps you're seeking a philosophy or political philosophy.
You're calling me the devil's main man? I might have made that introduction thread and said I am a Satanist, but I thought I made it clear that there is a difference between the philosophy of human individualism and pseudo-Satanism that children buy into because they think it's cool.
This forum is Christian based. Asking questions here is of a philosophical, if rather rigid, basis. The questions you ask will get different answers. Religion is fundamentally philosophical, and philosophy fundamentally doesn't have answers. It has things to ponder over, leaving the individual to choose what they want.
What is it you want?
*Nick*-naming, eh? Yeah, it probably should tell you something...
Anyways, I think I've already told you why I came here, and it was obviously for a different reason than you. So could you let me get what I want without interuption?
"Meph" is not a nick-name?
I'm not interrupting you at all. I'm answering your response.
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Disquisitive
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
I'd also like to give you some advice. Converting on a whim is a bad choice.
Meph (if that tells you anything) - I have dedicated the past few years to studying religions. I wouldn't call it a whim - there are simply questions that I have been pondering for a very long time that I was hoping to get answers for on this BBS. However, it looks like I may have been incorrect - so far TEXASGRANDMA has responded the same way everyone else has in everyother place I've gone searching for answers; dodging, quoting irrelevent verses. If I were to die tommorow and go to an eternal lake of fire.... well, I'm just trying to say that I want answers. I don't want the devil's main man giving me advice and I don't want dodged questions.
Can't you see I'm desperate?
Nick-naming my username is telling me something? If so, I fail to see the message.
If Christianity is what you want, convert. If you have doubts, then you have to find something you believe in. Perhaps it's not a religion, perhaps you're seeking a philosophy or political philosophy.
You're calling me the devil's main man? I might have made that introduction thread and said I am a Satanist, but I thought I made it clear that there is a difference between the philosophy of human individualism and pseudo-Satanism that children buy into because they think it's cool.
This forum is Christian based. Asking questions here is of a philosophical, if rather rigid, basis. The questions you ask will get different answers. Religion is fundamentally philosophical, and philosophy fundamentally doesn't have answers. It has things to ponder over, leaving the individual to choose what they want.
What is it you want?
*Nick*-naming, eh? Yeah, it probably should tell you something...
Anyways, I think I've already told you why I came here, and it was obviously for a different reason than you. So could you let me get what I want without interuption?
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mephisto
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Disquisitive:
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
I'd also like to give you some advice. Converting on a whim is a bad choice.
Meph (if that tells you anything) - I have dedicated the past few years to studying religions. I wouldn't call it a whim - there are simply questions that I have been pondering for a very long time that I was hoping to get answers for on this BBS. However, it looks like I may have been incorrect - so far TEXASGRANDMA has responded the same way everyone else has in everyother place I've gone searching for answers; dodging, quoting irrelevent verses. If I were to die tommorow and go to an eternal lake of fire.... well, I'm just trying to say that I want answers. I don't want the devil's main man giving me advice and I don't want dodged questions.
Can't you see I'm desperate?
Nick-naming my username is telling me something? If so, I fail to see the message.
If Christianity is what you want, convert. If you have doubts, then you have to find something you believe in. Perhaps it's not a religion, perhaps you're seeking a philosophy or political philosophy.
You're calling me the devil's main man? I might have made that introduction thread and said I am a Satanist, but I thought I made it clear that there is a difference between the philosophy of human individualism and pseudo-Satanism that children buy into because they think it's cool.
This forum is Christian based. Asking questions here is of a philosophical, if rather rigid, basis. The questions you ask will get different answers. Religion is fundamentally philosophical, and philosophy fundamentally doesn't have answers. It has things to ponder over, leaving the individual to choose what they want.
What is it you want?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I don't think these verses are irrevlant. They explain why if a person goes to hell, it is there own fault.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Disquisitive
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto:
I'd also like to give you some advice. Converting on a whim is a bad choice.
Meph (if that tells you anything) - I have dedicated the past few years to studying religions. I wouldn't call it a whim - there are simply questions that I have been pondering for a very long time that I was hoping to get answers for on this BBS. However, it looks like I may have been incorrect - so far TEXASGRANDMA has responded the same way everyone else has in everyother place I've gone searching for answers; dodging, quoting irrelevent verses. If I were to die tommorow and go to an eternal lake of fire.... well, I'm just trying to say that I want answers. I don't want the devil's main man giving me advice and I don't want dodged questions.
Can't you see I'm desperate?
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting lifeJhn 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jhn 3:20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Jhn 3:21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Rom 3:3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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Just a thought if a person knocks on your door and says your house is on fire, does it matter if you leave out of fear or not? Is it not better to accept Jesus as your Savior out of fear and miss hell then to resist out of pride and spend eternity in Hell.
As far as being wrong for God to send a person to hell. Each person makes a choice to accept Jesus as Savior or not. God gave His Son Jesus as a gift, He has done His part it is up to us to do our part.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Mephisto
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I'd also like to give you some advice. Converting on a whim is a bad choice. You don't want to convert because you feel scared about your "eternal soul". Eventually, you might question your decision, and then feel dissatisfied with how you acted. It's best to make decisions objectively. Of course, it's obviously your choice to convert, or to adhere to a philosophy, or to live as an individual, but in any case, do try to remember it ought to be a rational, objective choice and not one made upon a whim.
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Mephisto
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I'm not a Christian, but I used to be. If the Christian god does indeed exist, and you die without converting, you're going to hell.
This is something I just cannot fathom. How could I, if I were a father, send my children to an eternal Room 101 for having a different opinion? Thoughtcrime does seem to not just entail death; thoughtcrime is death.
If I die, and Christianity turns out to be right, and I'm told I'm going to hell, it wouldn't seem very just.
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Disquisitive
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posted
First of all let me introduce myself;
As my name suggests I am very curious about the Christian church but at the same time I'm a little bit skeptical - however, please don't stereotype me as the average unbeliever, as I am very open to the idea, I just need some convincing.
I have dedicated the last few years of my life to studying different religions of the world, including several types of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and many others. To tell you the truth, I am actually most attracted to eastern religions such as Buddhism, but given that my eternal being is at stake I am willing to give every religion my best shot, if that is at all possible.
Since I live in the Bible Belt area of the US, Christianity has always come back to me - however, most of my friends and relatives have been unable to answer my questions. So I came here, thinking you guys might be able to help. (I'm effectively begging to be converted.) Please don't mistake my questions as offensive or overly critical - I am genuinely curious and thirst for answers.
Let's start with my fundamental problem with Christianity. The paraphrase Epicurus, "Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then why is there evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
Again, please don't scorn me as has happened to me in several other Christian communities - I only wish to learn more about your religion.
Posts: 19 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Jun 2006
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