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Topic: Communion - whose it for?
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becauseHElives
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There is no difference in Jew and Greek in Yeshua.
There can be no difference in obedience to the written word.
There is only one faith, there is only one Lord, one baptism, one body,…
Yes there is coming a day in the future when Yahweh will turn His attention to the Nation of Israel, but that has nothing to do with the Churches obedience to responding to the leading of the Spirit, as many that are lead by the Spirit are the sons of Yahweh.
The purpose of the Book of Revelation is to unveil Jesus Christ, and to present Him as the victorious Lord-active, alive, and in full control over all that is happening on earth. He will ultimately defeat every enemy, and will bring peace and order to this troubled planet.
The word "Revelation" is the Latin translation of the Greek word "Apocalypse" which simply means "to unveil." The Revelation is an unveiling of Jesus Christ as He brings human history to a close here on earth.
It is not a revelation of the four horsemen; it is not a revelation of the ten homed beast; it is not a revelation of the fall of Babylon; it is a revelation of Jesus Christ bringing human history to a close. Remember not to call this Book "the book of Revelations" because, while there are many visions and symbols, it is the revealing of truth about one great person.
The Book of Revelation is the only book in the Bible that begins and ends with a distinct promise of blessing to those who read it and observe its instructions. Chapter 1:3 says "Blessed is he that reads, and they that...keep those things that are written in it. Chapter 22:7 says "Blessed is he that keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
The Book of Revelation was written near the end of the First Century, at a time of great suffering, persecution, and hardship for Christians. Emperor worship was becoming more and more common in the Roman Empire. During the reign of Emperor Domitian it had reached a peak. Domitian (A.D. 81-A.D. 90) demanded that he be worshiped as a god and that he be addressed as Lord and god." Christians and Jews refused to show that kind of worship and as a result were called "atheists." Some were put to death; some were pressured economically; others (like John) were banished to a barren island. Persecution was widespread.
The core message of the Revelation is: "Cling to Jesus Christ! Be faithful to Him even if it means death, end you will receive a crown of life." Often in life it seems like Satan is winning the battle--but Jesus Christ is in control--and when He comes, He will defeat every enemy and manifest His victory to the world.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Another piece of food for thought, desired to generate a sober minded approach to Scripture given us by C.Welch I believe.
Supernatural gifts : Let us also consider this, that every one of these Corinthian believers who assembled to partake of the Lord's Supper had some spiritual gift. It was not that a few had gifts, but "every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation" (1 Cor. 14:26). These supernatural gifts were in perfect harmony with the dispensation in which they were given; they were, moreover, equally in harmony with all that we have seen relative to the Lord's Supper.
Will those who believe that the Lord's Supper is for them, satisfactorily (i.e. Scripturally, not traditionally) explain their' lack of these qualifications, which were possessed by those to whom the instructions concerning the Lord's Supper were sent? The "gifts" and the Lord's Supper ceased at the close of Acts twenty-eight; we search in vain for the faintest allusion to the ordinances in the epistles written after Acts twenty-eight.
Why should we pick out one item from I Corinthians eleven and seek to perpetuate that, when we are compelled to confess that the very next verses in chapter 12 are written concerning that to which we can lay no claim?
If we read 1 Timothy, we find the Apostle giving Timothy detailed instructions, that he may know how to behave in the house of God. The Apostle repeats some of his instructions regarding the ministry of women (e.g. 1 Tim. 2 and 1 Cor. 11:1-17), and yet, although the Lord's Supper is the very next item in 1 Corinthians eleven, he finds no place for it in his instruction to Timothy. The simple reason is that when the kingdom became in abeyance, everything connected therewith necessarily went with it. Spiritual gifts, the Lord's Supper, the covenants, all went with the kingdom teaching. The Apostle was then commissioned to set out the new economy. To him was the grace given "to make all men see what is the dispensation of the Mystery which from all ages hath been hid in God" (Eph. 3:9 R.V.).
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epouraniois
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Revelation is a Book detailing the Lord taking up His work with the tribes of Israel again, which is why the everlasting covenant is brought to bear upon them.
In an attempt to simplify the matter:
James, John 1, 2, 3, Jude, Peter 1, 2
Galatians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
Hebrews
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Romans
Pentecostal and transitional period.
The hope of Israel.
The New Covenant.
Acts 28:25-27 - The dispensational boundary.
Ephesians - Prison
Philippians - Prison
Colossians - Prison
Philemon
1 Timothy
Titus
2 Timothy - Prison
The dispensation of the Mystery.
Standard truth for the church today.
Israel dismissed and now in abayance.
New Covenant suspended.
Revelation
God takes up His purpose bringing Israel into the milinial kingdom, re establishing covenant relationship:
No covenant is ever mentioned in relation to the "church which is His body". There is a promise and a purpose given before the age-time (Titus 1:1-3), but not a covenant old or new. The new covenant is God's gracious provision for the very people who failed under the old covenant.
After the supper we read, "They sung an hymn" (the Psalms known as the Hallel), and then "went out into the Mount of Olives". The Mount of Olives! The last portion of earth which the Saviour's feet trod before He ascended, and destined to be the first place touched by His feet when He returns to take to Himself the kingdom (Acts 1:12, Zech. 14:4).
The Lord's Supper,
Linked with the kingdom
Linked with Israel's Covenant
It seems as though everything has been written and arranged to link the Lord's Supper with the kingdom, and to sever it from the Mystery. Who then has blinded the eyes of believers, and made them more zealous concerning a kingdom ordinance, than eager to "know what is the hope of His calling"?
The Lord's Supper is connected with the Jewish feast of the Pass over, and by reading 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 we see that henceforth this feast was not merely to remind them of the deliverance from Egypt, but to "show the Lord's death till He come", which is further interpreted in 1 Corinthians 5:7 by the words, "For even Christ our Passover hath been sacrificed for us." Both Matthew twenty-six and 1 Corinthians eleven, tell us that the wine typified the "blood of the new covenant". What is this new covenant? Is it connected with the Mystery hidden since the age-times? Is the new covenant a secret only revealed now, or is it a matter of Old Testament revelation? Let us turn to Jeremiah thirty-one:
"At the same time (i.e. "the latter times", Jeremiah 30:24), saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people . . . again I will build thee, . . . 0 virgin of Israel. . . . 0 Lord, save Thy people, the remnant of Israel. Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth . . . for I am a Father to Israel. . . . He that scattered Israel will gather him . . . for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob. . . . Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (hence the connexion between the new covenant, the passover, and the Lord's Supper) . . . But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel (this is God's interpretation of the new covenant) . . . If those ordinances (of the sun, moon and stars) depart from before Me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; if heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord. "
The New Covenant
No one who believes that God means what He says can help seeing that the New Covenant is related to a greater, though parallel, exodus than that from Egypt, that it is specifically connected with the future gathering of Israel back to their land, and that the church of the Mystery of Ephesians three finds no place therein whatsoever. The opening words of Exodus twenty teach much the same lesson. "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Then follows the covenant, "which they brake" (Deut. 29:25), and, "They have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them forth out of the land of Egypt" (see also Jer. 11:7,8, Heb. 8).
In Matthew twenty-six the Lord Jesus looks forward to "that day", to "His Father's kingdom"; the kingdom in which the Father's will shall be done on earth; "I appoint unto you a kingdom, as My Father hath appointed unto Me; that ye may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Luke 22:29,30). Where in all this is room and place for, or hint of, the church of the Mystery, or any gentiles?
When we pass the dispensational boundary of Acts twenty-eight we read in Ephesians not of the kingdom of the heavens, nor of the kingdom of the Father, but of "the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 5:5). In Colossians 1:13 we read, "The kingdom of the Son of His love" (R.V.), which is in operation now, and is entirely distinct from the kingdom that hinges upon the restoration of Israel.
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becauseHElives
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Matthew 18:3 And said, Most certainly I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Proverbs 22:6: "Train up a child in the way he should go"
and
Ephesians 6:4: "Bring [your children] up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."
And these words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up (Deuteronomy 6:6-7).
Communion, baptism, marriage, laying on of hands, headship, The Feast of Israel, ect… are ordinances given to us in Scripture that show our heart toward Yahweh in obedience. We follow the examples given to us through Scripture. Abraham obeyed with action as Yahweh directed him.
We are now directed by the Spirit through the Scriptures
As we
"Study to show yourself approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth." 2.Tim. 2:15.
"... comparing spiritual things with spiritual..." 1.Cor.2:13,14.
"... the word of the Lord endureth forever." 1.Pet.1:24,25.
"For precept must be upon precept, ... line upon line; here a little, and there a little." Is.28:10
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Malachi 3:6
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and to day, and forever." Hebrew 13:8
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Mat. 5:17.
Old and the New Covenant. personally I'd rather call it the everlasting [new] and the temporary [old] covenant
You recall that the old covenant originated at Mt. Sinai, was spoken and written by God [Deut 5:22]; and came in two parts, these were the Ten Commandments as well as the laws which later became known as the laws of Moses which he had written in a book. The old covenant therefore originating at Mt. Sinai and, since it was a contract or treaty between God and Israel as a nation, was also ratified at Mt. Sinai.
In contrast the New Covenant was known already long before New Testament times to Jeremiah and Ezekiel (Jer. 3; 24:7; 31:33,34; 33:14,15,25,26; Ez. 3:17-19; 11:19; 18:21-23,31-32; 20:19-20; 36:26). The main difference between the Old and the New Covenant was, that the Old was between God and the nation of Israel, and the New between God and individual believers, Genesis 17:7; 26:5; Psalm 105:43-45. It also was very different from the Old in that it was founded on a love relationship between men and women and God.
God desired to establish the same spiritual relationship he had with Abraham [spiritual here means heart religion]. Ex. 6:7; Gen. 17:7,8; Deut. 29:13. In the Old, Sinaitic Covenant God did not offer a new means of salvation, but applied His everlasting plan to the present understanding and needs of His people. Along with the Decalogue God also gave Israel the plans for building a sanctuary and the services to be conducted in it. The sanctuary and its services were to remind the people of their sinful condition, lead them to acknowledge and repent of their sins, and give them an opportunity to confess their faith in the promised Redeemer. Therefore, this sanctuary was intended to teach them to look only to God for salvation and for power to obey.
When the people promised to obey the covenant, they were not establishing the covenant, but they were establishing a relation to the announced covenant . When Israel violated their promise to obey the terms of the covenant (Exodus 19:3-8), the covenant was not destroyed, but what was needed was to renew the people's relationship to God's covenant. The human view is that because it had been violated it had been annulled. But in God's view this was not the case, the people still needed the education the covenant provided.
On this basis we can see why the Ten Commandments are referred to as "the covenant." Ex. 34:28. They were not the result of an agreement between man and God, but man gave his assent to obey these divinely ordained commands, Exodus 19:3-8; Deut.4:13. The Sinai covenant was a commanded covenant which the people agreed to obey for the sake of the promised blessings. The old covenant was not a substitute for the new, but an accessory to it. It was given to help man find the way to salvation. Heb.9:1.
The term, that is the Ten Commandments, were to be written in the heart. The Old Covenant had been misconstrued by the Israelites to mean that by virtue of being born as a Jew they had already a place in the kingdom of God. The New Covenant emphasized heart religion, love of God and our neighbors. As such this New Covenant existed before the Old, in fact it always existed. But because of the Israelites having been enslaved for so many years in Egypt they had forgotten all about the true God and that is why God showed himself in might and power during the days of Moses.
Those who claim on the basis of Ex., Deut. and Hebrews 8 that the Ten Commandments, being a part of this covenant, were done away with after the cross overlook the fact that the apostle John, who wrote the book the Revelation of Jesus Christ toward the end of the 1st century AD, some 30 years after the book of Hebrews was written, stresses in three places that God's people keep the commandments, Rev 12:17; 19:10; 22:14. To be sure the Ten Commandments were involved in the Old Covenant,
Exodus 34:28 "And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."
Deut.4:13 "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone."
But were they done away with? The law which the Psalmist and Jesus calls eternal and which was the reason Jesus had to die on Calvary, could that be done away with so unceremoniously?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Nicely written becauseHElives, of which I have one further comment upon that which you have brought up, bearing on the fact that this was represenative of the new covenant, it brings further proof that it is not somethng we should be so engaged.
Why?
Eph 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world
The new covenant of Israel is to replace the old covenant. And gentiles never had any covenant, as we just read.
How are we brought to God then, if it is not by covenant?
Next verse please:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
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becauseHElives
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Communion - whose it for?
Good question and one of fundamental importance to our faith. Admittedly there are a number of interpretations on these issues. Consider this one from a Hebraic perspective.
To begin with, Yeshua’s words as He distributed the bread and the wine to His disciples during what we call, “the Last Supper,” were that these were symbolic of His Body and His Blood, and were given as signs of the brit hadashah (the new covenant). Believers are used to hearing this but imagine how it must have sounded to the disciples, who knew that Torah forbid the drinking of blood, as He handed them a cup of wine saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me....This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.”
They knew the “new covenant” was promised by God from the words of the prophet Jeremiah (31:31) in which God said He would give to a backslidden Israel a new heart. He would change them and cause their hard hearts to become hearts responsive to Him. But that night they had no idea of what He was really saying. Only afterwards, after He had risen from the dead, did they realize the new covenant was inaugurated with Yeshua’s becoming the sacrificial Passover Lamb. “Remember Me when you do this,” apparently took on great meaning to the disciples which they then conveyed to the community of Jewish Believers who would then have understood what He meant.
That significant last Passover Seder meal with which we are all familiar, was the last meal He would eat with the men with whom He’d eaten so many other meals – meals on the road, on the sea, in the city, in the desert, camped by a fire for the night, while walking in the heat of the day, in the homes of sinners, of strangers, of family and friends. They had shared so many wonderful, powerful, frightening, confusing, awe-inspiring, miraculous, tender and knee-bowing experiences over their three and a half years together, and most of those days included sharing meals together, while talking over the events of the day as they ate.
“As often as you do this,” Yeshua said that night at the Seder, “remember Me." His saying this was actually one of those clues to His divinity, they would later realize. God had told Israel that each year on the anniversary of their deliverance from Egypt, they were to “remember the Passover” and to recall to the next generation what He did for them in sovereignty setting them free from the tyranny of slavery and bondage. They were to recall how God set them free from Pharaoh, a cruel task-master they would have been unable to overcome on their own. And so the Jewish people have continued by God’s grace to keep the Passover and remember this story these thousands of years.
As good and miraculous as the Passover deliverance was, it was but a shadow of the ultimate deliverance. To this “remembering” of God’s miraculous intervention on Israel’s behalf, Yeshua added "Remember Me" while you're remembering the Passover as the One who set you free from the bondage to sin and fear of death, “Remember Me” as the One who freed you from the consequences of enslavement to the cruelest master whom you would have been unable to overcome on your own, meaning the devil.
Secondly, though Yeshua’s statement was said at a Passover Seder, He certainly had to mean for us to remember Him more “often” than during the yearly Passover when He said, “As often as you do this…” As bread and wine were staples in the Hebrew diet, Yeshua’s “Remember Me” was equal to saying, “Whenever you eat, remember Me.” So what He was saying was, at each meal when we bless God, we are to keep in mind what Yeshua has done for us through His broken Body and Blood. Keep in mind that He sustains us just as our food sustains us, that we live not by bread alone but by Yeshua Who is the Word of God made manifest.” We bless God for Him and we bless Him as God.
Jews would say a b'rucha (blessing) over the wine and bread at every meal, not just at Passover. It was an every day occurrence, several times a day, whenever a meal was served. "Blessed are You, O Lord our God, King of the universe, Who has given us the bread from the earth” or “fruit from the vine." These blessings are still said by Jews the world over at their meals daily.
Note, incidentally, that Jews don't ask God to bless the food as it is assumed He has already blessed it by giving it to them to nurture and sustain them. They bless God, rather than the food, giving Him praise for having provided it. The focus is on God, not the food. It’s another time in the day when Jews would praise God for His many benefits and to enjoy having Him in their lives. What Yeshua was saying was to remember Him in those praises.
Just as God gave Israel dietary "instructions" (the word 'commandments" being really “instructions” in the Hebrew) so that they would be thinking about God throughout their day, keeping God in mind in something as ordinary as eating a meal, so also Yeshua would have us be mindful of Him throughout the ordinariness of our day, and especially during what should be a congenial, pleasant time of the family or friends gathering together for a meal. This was to be a time of conversational praise and remembering Him to each other, and to say the b’rachote, to give praise to God directly as they said, “Blessed are You, O Lord, our God….
Additionally, it is quite doubtful that what Yeshua meant by remembering Him was a somber and formal ceremony in which we interact with each other almost not at all as we partake of a minute wafer or piece of cracker and grape juice in a thimble. It just wouldn’t have occurred to Him. He meant this to be relational as just about everything in the Hebrew culture was relational.
While He meant for Passover to now include “remembering Him” just as we remember to retell the story of Passover each year, at the same time, since blessing the bread and wine was an all-the-time occurrence, it is quite likely He meant that whenever we share a meal, it should also be a time to share Him with each other. It’s a time to recall what God has meant to you during your day or done for you, or blessed you, etc. Like the disciples who ate with Him daily, He wanted us to share what God is doing in our lives on a daily basis in easy, pleasant, non-religious remembering Him... just living life with God. A very Hebrew thing to do.
As for the “reverence and reflection” which chaoschristian asks about, one can be joyful and reverent at the same time. To reflect on His experience in order that we might come to know Him more deeply as well as reflect on the meaning of what Yeshua did for us is always appropriate. Many have been healed and delivered as they have pondered the significance of His blood and body given for us. I think what she may mean is that “communion” seems often to be a time for somberness, a time to reflect on how our sinful nature required Yeshua’s suffering and His death. We seem to sink into what we consider a reverential self blame. I’m not sure this is as He intended.
Many use it as a time to repent for sins, in light of 1 Cor 11:27-29 which says,
“Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.”
These Corinthian Believers were in sin in a number of ways. They were out of order and not functioning according to Kingdom ways. They did not realize the holiness and mutual honor and respect that were to be resident within the body of the Believers as they met together. They were tolerating sin in some, and not seeing themselves as “one” body in Yeshua, but acting as if they were just another group of individuals, some getting drunk, some eating without the others. They had not grasped the revelation of the unity of the body or that they were members of one another in Yeshua. They were not “discerning the Lord’s body” which was to be a life-permeating revelation. Paul was certainly not saying to wait until it’s time for communion to get rid of your sin and to get right with God. They were to live out their entire lives in the context of the “Lord’s body.”
One wonders why anyone would tote around any sins at all when we can dump them at the Cross the second we realize we’ve sinned and be immediately cleansed of them by God’s grace. Why wait for Communion? It isn’t meant to be a time to repent of sin; it’s a time to rejoice that we’re delivered from sin. It’s not a time to enter into some obligatory remorse because it’s communion time. It would seem He’d much rather that we immediately repented whenever we realized we were entertaining a sin so we stay free in Him.
Then when we come together, we remember Him, rejoicing in our deliverance from sin, death and the devil. You know, a kind of “horse and rider thrown into the sea,” rejoicing, like Israel did after their Passover deliverance. If communion is patterned after the Passover Seder, then joyful thanksgiving and praise would be the only really appropriate response. No Jews ever responded with sadness that we were delivered from Egypt – it’s always a time for rejoicing. Since we live out our lives and enter eternity secure in what the Passover Lamb did for us, perhaps that’s what Paul meant when he wrote, “Rejoice always” (1 Thess. 5:16).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Aaron
Perhaps you are commenting on the Catholic traditon of the Lord's Supper wherein Christ is crucified again and again?
We eat the bread and drink the wine as a symbol of the following:
1) Our redemption in the blood of Christ and our inclusion in His death.
2) Our connection to one another as the Body of Christ.
Such a witness is a shield against the workings of an enemy who seeks to divide us.
In Eph 6 we are instructed to put on the whole armor of God, where are the verses saying 'Such a witness is a shield..."
I ask because I read that Christ is our only shield, but yes, I was thinking of RCC, as I am a Bible student, and not familiar with all the divisions among Christiandom. As such, I stay with what is written in the strickest since, acknowledging who what is written to, under what circumstances and why.
I find no instruction for non Jews, or even Jews who were not the disciples to have received a command to do that.
No doubt I have much to learn, and I am willing, so if there are some verses I need to look at, please post them so I may study them.
I most surely believe, at this point in my studies, that mixing the Jewish traditions with non Jewish instruction is a great cause of divisions amoung those who seek to know Him, which would all but disappear if we pay more attention to those two little words, 'but now', as they are indicators of further instruction. Additionally, within this context, we have the words given us for our learning that when Christ makes things new, the former things are past away.
Thus, when we set our affections on things above as we are instructed to be doing, there is conflict when we are in the 'doing' of those things which are earthly, specifically traditions of men, and traditions of the Jews.
Not having been endoctrinated into 'Public Worship' so called, I have far less to undo, or unlearn, and I bring this up because what I see so very much of is a great seeking for the Lord, but He said He is not there, the annointing is not there, that He gave over the buildings of authority where the leaders teach Scripture to desolation.
Where do we find Him and His truth then?
ONLY FROM HIS WORD.
There, and there alone can we get to know Him. There alone shall we learn the fullness of the Spirit's prayer for us in Eph. 1:7; and the blessed practical outcome of it in Col. 1:9,10.
God has revealed Himself in His written Word, the Scriptures of truth; and in the Living Word, His Son, Jesus Christ. And it is by the Communicated Word revealed in our hearts by the Holy Ghost that we begin thus to get to know Him, whom to know is Life Eternal.
This is the one great reason why the written Word is given to us. It is not given merely as a book of general information, or of refernece, or that we may confuse what is given to Israel with that which is written specifically to us; but it is given to make known the invisible God.
Why do we read it? Why do we open it at all? What is, or ought to be, our object in reading it? Do we read a portion that someone else has selected for us? Do we read that portion because we have promised someone we would do so? Or do we open it, and sit down before it with the one dominant object to find out God; to discover His mind; to get to know His will.
Those who are not thus engaged make their own god out of their own thoughts and imaginations. They have to fall back on what they think their god likes!
Thousands make their gods with their hands, out of wood, or stone, or bread. Thousands more make him out of their own heads. How many will still worship "the unknown God"; and serve themselves; and do what is pleasing in their own eyes, studying only their own tastes! Ignorant of that great rubrick, John 4:24, "God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth" (i.e., truly in spirit), they talk of the kind of service they prefer, and say, "I don't like that at all"; or, "I do like that so much"; as though "places of worhsip," so-called, were opened merely for persons to go in and do what pleases themselves, forgetful of that word "MUST," which dominates the whole sphere of what we call worship.
Worship "must" be only with the spirit. We cannot worhsip God--who is a Spirit--with our eyes, by looking on at what is being done. We cannot worship God with our noses, by smelling incense, whether ceremonially or otherwise used. We cannot worship God with our ears, by listening to music, however well it may be "rendered". No! worship cannot be with any of our senses; or by all of them put together. It must be spiritual, and not sensual. The worshippers must be spiritual worshippers, for "the Father seeketh such to worship Him." (John 4:23).
How many of such worshippers frequent our churches and chapels? How many are still worshipping "the unknown God" (Acts 17:23)?
Is it possible that, if the true God were known--the great, the High and Holy God, who dwelleth not in temples made with hands; the God who inhabiteth eternity; the God in whose sight the very heavens are not clean, and who chargeth His angels with folly--is it possible, we ask, that nay who know Him could imagine, for one moment, that, He "seeks" or could be pleased with, or accept, or regard a congregation turning the Bible into "a book of the words," and lining up to for example, drink His blood and break His body, kneeling with the congregational display of organized religeon!
Is THAT what The Great and Infinite God is seeking? Is that the occupation of the hearth with Himself which He says He "MUST" have?
A knowledge of God--the Father is also of the greatest importance, that we should have a true knowledge of Christ.
This is the Christian's one object, as well as his greatest need.
This is set forth with remarkable clearness and force in Phil. 3. In the ninth verse we have our standing in Christ expressed in the words
"FOUND IN HIM."
This is explained as not having our own righteousness, but that which is through the faith of Christ; "the righteousness which is of God by faith."
Clothed in this righteousness, nothing of self is seen by God. Like the stones in the Temple, they were covered over first with cedar-wood; and the cedar-wood was covered over with gold. Then it is added, "there was no stone seen." These words are not necessary either for the grammar, or for the sense; for how could the stone be seen if thus doubly covered up? No! the words are graciously added to emphasize the antitype, and to impress upon us the blessed fact that, when covered with Christ's righteousness there is nothing of self seen in our standing before God. We are already "in the heavenlies, in Christ"; and are comely in all His comeliness, perfect in all His perfection, accepted in all His merit, righeous as He is righteousness; yea, holy as He is holy, and loved as He is beloved. All this is included in those words,
"found in Him."
And being thus "found in Him" for our standing, we have in verses 20, 21 our hope; which, is to be
LIKE HIM
in resurrection and ascension glory at His coming. Hence "we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able to subdue all things unto himself."
This is our "blessed hope." What is to occupy our hearts from the moment when we were in Christ, who is our life, to the moment when we shall be like Christ, who shall be our glory? What is the one object that is to ever fill our hearts and occupy our minds?
"THAT I MAY KNOW HIM."
This is henceforth the Christian's great object. Nothing but this aim to get to know Christ (for this is the word used here, in Phil. 3:10).
As verse 9 contained the explanation of the words "found in him," so this verse (10) contains the explanation of how and why we are to get to know Christ.
We are henceforth no longer to know Him after the flesh, but to get to know Him as risen; the head of the New Creation in resurrection (2 Cor. 5:16,17).
For this is how this knowledge is explained: "that I may get to know him and the power of his resurrection." Not to know merely the historical fact of his resurrection, but the "power" of it: i.e., what its wondrous power has done for us. But how can we get to know this "power"? Ah! only by experiencing "the fellowship of His sufferings": by learning that when He, the Head of the Body, suffered, all the members of that Body suffered in mysterious and blessed "fellowship with Him." Thus shall we get to know how we were "made conformable to Him in His death." Only when we have thus learned that we suffered when He suffered, and died when He died, can we begin to learn how we have risen also with Christ; and "get to know the power of His resurrection."
How few of us know what this "power" is, as it takes us out of the old creation and sets us in the new creation, where "all things are of God" (2 Cor. 5:17).
This then is our object, to get to know all that Christ is made unto us in resurrection power.
If we really knew Him, and believed that He knows better than we do what is good for us, there would be no effort whatever, but only a blessed irrepressible desire for His will. All the shadows and types of the dispensations which have gone before we would let them take their rightful place so that we could prayerfully honor that which can only be found by a true knowledge of Him through that worhip which MUST be in spirit and truth, and never in things sensual and sensational.
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by chaoschristian:
But other questions about communion are raised in my mind.
What's the point of communion? Our faith and salvation are not dependent upon it. It is based upon a feast that is now no longer relevant to us except as a historical curiosity. And in terms of the 'holy trinity' of sacraments, it is far less significant and impactful than both baptism and marriage.
So, why bother? I'm all for not doing things out of tradition, for avoiding institutionalization, and casting aside the "but we've always have done it that way" mentality.
Consider this: tomorrow all knowledge and memory of communion is wiped from the brains of all humanity. How would it impact the Christian faith?
(PS I'm not saying in the above scenerio that knowledge of the passover feast before the passion of Christ is erased. Only the knowledge and memory of what is now known as the sacrament is gone.)
I'd like to share some thoughts about Communion, that I've recently learned.
Communion represents outwardly what we as Christians should be doing spiritually.
That is we should be "eating" and "drinking" from the Holy Spirit through God's Word and making the Word part of us and it shows our unity to the Head of the Body: Christ.
Whenever we are truly communing with the Father in prayer or meditation or walking in Faith, we are intaking of the Spirit of God and it changes our lives.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
To crucify the Lord again and again all over the world goes strickly against Scripture, saying He died but once.
My dear epouranious,
Perhaps you are commenting on the Catholic traditon of the Lord's Supper wherein Christ is crucified again and again?
We eat the bread and drink the wine as a symbol of the following:
1) Our redemption in the blood of Christ and our inclusion in His death.
2) Our connection to one another as the Body of Christ.
Such a witness is a shield against the workings of an enemy who seeks to divide us.
Example:
Brother in Christ: "I am struggling but I will handle it on my own.
Me: "Brother, In Christ we are included in the same Body. So I am included in your struggle. Now, let me help you."
Aaron
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epouraniois
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I always thought that when Christ asked His disciples to remember Him when they get together at their three manditory annual feasts, that that information alone was sufficient to state who He was speaking to.
Is there any command that the disciples go out and teach others this, or are people taking what belongs to Israel and forgetting it is a privalige to read God's other childrens letters?
To crucify the Lord again and again all over the world goes strickly against Scripture, saying He died but once.
Not only did He die and is risen, He is the ascended Lord and head of the church, who is warned in Col 2, 'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ...Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward...intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind...And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God'.
I. H. S. on the wafers?
What mean these mystical letters?
To a Christian these letters are represented as signifying, "Iesus Hominum Salvator," "Jesus the Saviour of men." But let a Roman worshipper of Isis (for in the age of the emperors there were innumerable worshippers of Isis in Rome) cast his eyes upon them, and how will he read them? He will read them, of course, according to his own well known system of idolatry: "Isis, Horus, Seb," that is, "The Mother, the Child, and the Father of the gods,"--in other words, "The Egyptian Trinity."
Israel was set aside, they ran out of trees to hang the Jews and the believing gentiles on, then started an amalgamated church where, unBiblically, gentile preist were created and and and...
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Chaplain Bob
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by chaoschristian:
So, if you are serving communion, how do you know who to serve it to?
Say for example you are the pastor a large church with 2000 people in attendance on a given Sunday. You serve communion that particular Sunday. How do you know who to serve the communion to, and what's your responsibility as the pastor to ensure that ONLY believers participate?
The responsibility is not the pastor's or the staff's but the person who partakes. There is no Scriptural punishment for giving communion to a non-believer. If someone takes communion wrongly God will handle the matter.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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dws129
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posted
quote:
What's the point of communion? Our faith and salvation are not dependent upon it. It is based upon a feast that is now no longer relevant to us except as a historical curiosity. And in terms of the 'holy trinity' of sacraments, it is far less significant and impactful than both baptism and marriage.
True salvation is not dependent on it. I disagree that it is based on a feast that is no longer relevant. The passover to Christians is the blood of Jesus allows us to pass from death in sin to life in Him, because of the sacrifice he made. Jesus said do this in remembrence of Him. It is a time not only to remember what Jesus has done for us but for us to reflect on ourselves, examine ourselves to ask are we what we should be for the Lord.
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chaoschristian
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Aaron:
Aah. You have your baptism post in the communion thread.
Regardless, the questions is not whether to be baptized, but whether or not to be baptized again for the sake of meeting a membership requirement at this particular local church.
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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Aaron
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Being human makes us vulnerable to Satan's ploys. Our flesh masters us and demands to be satisfied. We are slaves to sin and have no compunction in ourselves for holiness. The wages of sin is death. God demands it.
Water baptism represents a believer's immersion in the death of Christ: our old self is dead with Christ.
Once dead with Christ our Father raises us with new life...and we, the children of God, become part of the Begotten of God (collectively "the Body of Christ"). God's Spirit dwells in us and gives life to our mortal bodies. Not the old life we once lived but a new life, life in the Spirit.
Over such regeneration the enemy has no authority, no power. What's done is done. The saved are safe. They will not die eternally.
But will they mature?
Maturity in the Spirit calls for the saint, the child of God, to live as God instructs...to relinquish his will to the Father's. This calls for faith. Faith calls for truth. And it is here the enemy attacks.
Knowing that you are no longer condemned the enemy will try to prevent your growth. A child fully given to his Father's will will grow in power and in authority and the enemy will lose ground as you gain ground...in your family, your marriage, etc.
So, he will remind you of your past failings, whisper memories of guilt and embarrassment..flood your mind with evidence that you are not fit for service in the Kingdom, "No one can recover from such a past!"
But, in the midst of the torrent, we can say to him... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
"Satan, you witnessed my baptism. The man you are attempting to condemn is dead. The Father raised me with new life...the life of the Son. The same Son who made a public spectacle of you and your cronies. Now be gone from me, in Jesus' name!"
Baptism is much more than tradition. The Father gave it to us for our benefit...as a witness to the powers of this age.
Be Blessed,
Aaron
Edit: oops. I got the communion and baptism thread confused. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) I'll post about communion tomorrow.
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chaoschristian
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posted
Aaron:
I'm not following you at all. Please explain.
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by chaoschristian:
Well, as much as my pride is loath to admit it, my position was incorrect. Communion is for Christians. Now I'll pass over the entire "at what age" argument.
But other questions about communion are raised in my mind.
What's the point of communion? Our faith and salvation are not dependent upon it. It is based upon a feast that is now no longer relevant to us except as a historical curiosity. And in terms of the 'holy trinity' of sacraments, it is far less significant and impactful than both baptism and marriage.
So, why bother? I'm all for not doing things out of tradition, for avoiding institutionalization, and casting aside the "but we've always have done it that way" mentality.
Consider this: tomorrow all knowledge and memory of communion is wiped from the brains of all humanity. How would it impact the Christian faith?
(PS I'm not saying in the above scenerio that knowledge of the passover feast before the passion of Christ is erased. Only the knowledge and memory of what is now known as the sacrament is gone.)
Consider that Christians interact with spiritual powers, some who are malevolent, and you will find the answer to your question...perhaps.
Aaron
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chaoschristian
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Well, as much as my pride is loath to admit it, my position was incorrect. Communion is for Christians. Now I'll pass over the entire "at what age" argument.
But other questions about communion are raised in my mind.
What's the point of communion? Our faith and salvation are not dependent upon it. It is based upon a feast that is now no longer relevant to us except as a historical curiosity. And in terms of the 'holy trinity' of sacraments, it is far less significant and impactful than both baptism and marriage.
So, why bother? I'm all for not doing things out of tradition, for avoiding institutionalization, and casting aside the "but we've always have done it that way" mentality.
Consider this: tomorrow all knowledge and memory of communion is wiped from the brains of all humanity. How would it impact the Christian faith?
(PS I'm not saying in the above scenerio that knowledge of the passover feast before the passion of Christ is erased. Only the knowledge and memory of what is now known as the sacrament is gone.)
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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Caretaker
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1 Cor. 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation.
The chronological age is far less relevent, then the understanding of the Lord's Table.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Late, oh well, I still have a word to share on this.
Who was the Christ speaking with?
What was the occassion?
How many times did the Jews get together for their feasts each year?
Answers:
Only His disciples.
Passover regular Jewish feast.
Three manditory Jewish feasts yearly.
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ronbo325
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Thanks for the opinions, and I kind of knew the answer but it really made me unsure after reading the other posts. I even emailed my question to my pastor.
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http://trialbyfiremusic.com
Posts: 3 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Nov 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
When my daughter was five she professed to love Jesus and our Father with all her heart. I wrestled with the idea of her youth excluding her from communion. I took it to the Lord. I received from Him one simple question: "If I have included her why would you exclude her?"
Amen!! As long as they are born again, no matter what the age.
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Aaron
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When my daughter was five she professed to love Jesus and our Father with all her heart. I wrestled with the idea of her youth excluding her from communion. I took it to the Lord. I received from Him one simple question: "If I have included her why would you exclude her?"
He allowed my soul to rest on the matter and she has partaken of communion ever since...she actually looks forward to it.
Communion is a celebration of being of the Body of Christ; in Him and together we effectively become part of Begotten with new spiritual life. Access to God, however, is only obtained through the blood of Christ, by accepting His atonement for our sins we gain access to the Father. The way I see it communion is not an expression of salvation but of the Kingdom economy. The blood of Christ is for sinners. Communion is for the saved and is a celebration of our new reality "in Christ".
Aaron
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chaoschristian
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Well, you've all given me much to consider. Thank you. I'll give you an update on the ongoing conversation with my friend after we meet again this Saturday.
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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ronbo325
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
A Pastor should explain that the communion is for children above 12
I have never heard of this, and I know our Pastor has never mentioned an age limit. I have a 9 year old daughter that has accepted Jesus as her Savior and worships Him with all her heart. Can you tell me where this is?
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http://trialbyfiremusic.com
Posts: 3 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Nov 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by chaoschristian:
So, if you are serving communion, how do you know who to serve it to?
We can draw the parallel of no matter what we have gone through, we each are ultimately responsible for our own salvation. We can't blame anyone else.
Equally we each have to answer to ourselves whether or not to take communion. The pastor can't see our hearts, nor is he responsible for our inner conscious.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
A Pastor should explain that the communion is for children above 12 and adults who have accepted Jesus as their Savior. The Pastor should say that the Bible warns that their is a penalty for those who take the commuion who are not right with God. Then the elders should pass out the communion to all adults and children above 12. At this point it is up the person to decide in their heart if they should take it or not. I have seen people pass the communion plate on to the next person without partaking.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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chaoschristian
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So, if you are serving communion, how do you know who to serve it to?
Say for example you are the pastor a large church with 2000 people in attendance on a given Sunday. You serve communion that particular Sunday. How do you know who to serve the communion to, and what's your responsibility as the pastor to ensure that ONLY believers participate?
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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Caretaker
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posted
Communion/the Lord's Table is a memorial, which ONLY Believers may partake.
The non-believer would be partaking falsely.
It is only by faith alone in Christ alone that one can come to God, and only those who have come to Christ are to partake of His Table. It is NOT for children who have not yet reached understanding, nor is it for the non-believer.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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TG gave a very good answer chaoschristian. Taking communion is a very serious matter, because the bread and wine are symbols of partaking of Jesus' blood and body.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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The Lord's Supper is for only those who are Christians, children of God. It is not about what Church you attend but about whether you are washed in the blood of Jesus.
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Examine Yourself
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and *blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks *in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the *Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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chaoschristian
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I am having a debate with a friend over who is to be invited to communion.
He says that only the baptised and regenerated are to participate in communion - but isn't too strict about testing a person about that.
My stance is that the ritual of communion is representative of the common table that God invites all people to, regardless of age, race, creed, etc. That to turn anyone away from communion is in fact a turning away of God. So all should be invited to communion regardless of baptism or claims of regeneration.
Your thoughts?
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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