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Topic: need a answer for - unsaved
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, the scriptures say:
Jesus is indeed the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He suffered ONCE for sins
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
The scripture also says whose sins he bore:
Isaiah 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Respectfully, His grace. All its incarnate power? The power of sin is death.
Sin is very alive and kicking in the world as we presently know it.
quote:
There is a huge theological discussion over whether or not the "sins" of the whole world were upon Jesus or whether the sins of the seed of Abraham were upon Jesus.
Jesus shed his blood for the whole world, not just the seed of Abraham. I will wrap it up with this scripture.
1 John 2:2
He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Respectfully, His grace. All its incarnate power? The power of sin is death.
There is a huge theological discussion over whether or not the "sins" of the whole world were upon Jesus or whether the sins of the seed of Abraham were upon Jesus. Yesterday when I was posting this I knew in my spirit that this was going to come up, but I am not sure that I am led to speak on this I would really have to pray about that because there is a lot of foundational doctrine that must be understood to understand this issue. And at this point we cant even agree on what happened on the cross or whether God can and does look upon sin.
If you want to post on sin, iniquity, evil etc and want to being a discussion on those things I would surely think that this could be interesting, but at this point I have exhausted anything that I have to contribute to this particular subject on God's omnipotence and its relation to looking upon sin, iniquity, evil, wickedness, or any other thing that you want to call it.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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Enjoyed you post HFHS. I don't have time to study it too thoroughly right now, but in some scriptures you quoted 'evil' and some you quoted 'sin'
Let's look at their definitions -
Sin - estrangement from God; commit a sin; violate a law of God or a moral law;an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will.
Evil - morally objectionable behaviour; morally bad or wrong.
When God spoke about evil he was talking about their behaviour. He is capable of looking at our behaviour with great displeasure.
When Jesus was on the cross all of the sins of the world were cast upon him. God's eyes are too pure to look at sin in all of its incarnate power.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hisgrace says:
quote:
God is so pure that he cannot even look at sin. He has to turn his face away - it is too unbearable for him.
IMO this is teaching is a direct challenge to God's omnipotence... to say that God cannot - is unable to look upon sin and "has to" must turn HIS face away from it as HE is UNABLE to bear looking at it, is to say that the sight of sin is more powerful than God... more than HE can bear. Futher and most importantly, it contradicts a plethora of scripture showing GOD looking upon sin.
In support of your opinion Hisgrace, you offer this scripture:
quote:
Hab 1:13Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
At fisrt glance or casual reading of this single scripture, I can see how one might make the statement that God cannot look upon evil and must turn his face from it. But we cannot form doctrines based on a single scripture. We have to form doctrines that are consistant with ALL the scripture.
This statement:
13Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:
and this statement:
Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Appear to contradict each other and both are scripture. Since we know that God is not the author of confusion and does not contradict himself, we must lack something of understanding, because these two scriptures CANNOT contradict one another.
So, we must look for what is missing in our understanding.
The first thing we see is that there are numerous situations in the Bible that specificially show God looking upon evil and sin and iniquity. I have listed some of them above in a previous post. They agree with this scripture from psalms and so lets look more closely at these two...
First, the setting: the scripture is from Habakkuk; Habbakkuk is a prophet to the nation of Judah... the Southern Kingdom and this is aproximately 607 BC. Judah has seen the Northern Kingdom of Israel given over to the ruthless Assyrians for their sins against God and they themselves have been for the time spared. But they are not without sin. The Assyrians have been weakened by the Scythians and Babylon has declared its independence of Assyria and the Chaldeans under Nebuchadnezzar are marching across Mesopotamia and Judah is in fear. Jehoiakim is King of Judah and under his reign Judah has returned to idolotry that was perhaps as bad as was in the days of Manasseh.
Second, who is speaking and to whom is he speaking?
Lets look at the first 12 verses that come before this one we are examining:
quote:
1 ¶ The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
2 O LORD, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
We see here that it is the prophet Habakkuk that is speaking and he is speaking to GOD. He is questioning God. He sees what is coming and has been praying for the deliverence of his people and the Chaldean army marches on toward Judah.
HOW LONG SHALL I CRY OUT EVEN TELL YOU OF THE VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION AND YOU DONT ANSWER ME!!!
quote:
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
Again he questions God. He blames God. I have a grievance because you God have not done soemthing to stop these heathen Babylonians from spoiling my people... your people. Why do you God do iniquity to me???
Does God ever do iniquity? But here Habakkuk says God has done him iniquity. Have you never spoken to God foolishly blaming him for something that you had no right to blame HIM for? I have done this. But the point that I want to make here is that this is Habukkuk's human words... this is his feelings. God has not done him iniquity! This is his flesh.
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4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
Habukkuk continues to mouth off to God... The Law is slack he says... my people are the righteous and you allow the wicked Chaldean to overtake them? Therefore your judgement is wrong!
Is God's judgement ever wrong? Habukkuk says the law is slack. Is God's law ever slack? Again this is Habukkuk's perception... his flesh. He does not understand that God is going to allow HIS people to be conquered by a people that is surely more wicked than they!!
In the next verse... God answers him...
quote:
5 ¶ Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
God says to him look you who are among the righteous? NO! God says behold ye among the heathen. Judah is behaving as the heathen do at this point. God says you have not seen anything yet. You think that I will not allow the heathen to take Judah? You have not seen anything yet. Watch what I will do in your lifetime!
quote:
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
God says it is HE that has raised up the Chaldeans to do just what they are doing. God is using the heathen to bring judgment to Judah, just as he used the Assyrians to bring judgment to Israel the Northern Kingdom.
In verses 7-10, God tells of the mighty destruction that will come to Ninevah, to Egypt, and yes even to Judah under Nebuchadnezzar.. quote:
7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
10 And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.
Then in verse 11, God tells of how the end will eventually come to Babylon...
quote:
11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.
Now, in verse 12 Habukkuk responds to God....
quote:
12 ¶ Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Habukkuk is beginning to understand. I see we shall not die, but you have ordained the Chaldeans to bring judgement on these people so that they repent....
Now... the verse you offer
quote:
13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
Habukkuk is seeking more information... more understanding lets look at the words that underlie this text...
quote:
Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer2889 eyes5869 than to behold4480, 7200 evil,7451 and canst3201 not3808 look5027 on413 iniquity:5999 wherefore4100 lookest5027 thou upon them that deal treacherously,898 and holdest thy tongue2790 when the wicked7563 devoureth1104 the man that is more righteous6662 than4480 he?
ṭâhôr (pure)‛ayin (eye)minnêy râ'âh (out of see)ra‛ râ‛âh (evil)yâkôl (to be able) lôh (not)( nâbaṭ(regard)(respect)(Have pleasure) 'el (toward)mâh(why)(how)nâbaṭ(regard)(respect) (have pleasure)bâgad (deal deceitfully (treacherously, unfaithfully)chârash (keep silent)râshâ‛ (guilty bad persons)bâla‛ (destroy)tsaddîyq (righteous)minnêy (out of ) (from here)
To paraphrase: Pure eye not able to regard with pleasure evil; How can you regard with pleasure and keep silent as evil men destroy the righteous?
We see that Habukkuk does not understand how God stands by and watches his people overtaken by the heathen.
This does not say that God is unable to look at evil as in see it with his eyes. It speaks to his ability to tollerate it... to have pleasure in it... to give regard to evil.
Now look at the different word used in this scripture:
Pro 15:3 The eyes5869 of the LORD3068 are in every3605 place,4725 beholding6822 the evil7451 and the good.2896
It is the same word eye (5869) in both scriptures. but look at behold in this one (6822)
tsâphâh -A primitive root; properly to lean forward, that is, to peer into the distance; by implication to observe, await: - behold, espy, look up (well), wait for, (keep the) watch (-man).
This word clearly refers to the seeing with the eyes. God does look at and see evil. He is able to LOOK at sin... We see this word used in these verses:
1 Samuel 14:16 And the watchmen <06822> of Saul in Gibeah of Benjamin looked; and, behold, the multitude melted away, and they went on beating down one another.
Psalms 37:32 The wicked watcheth <06822> the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
Psalms 66:7 He ruleth by his power for ever; his eyes behold <06822> the nations: let not the rebellious exalt themselves. Selah.
Compare behold from Habukkuk:
nâbaṭ
naw-bat'
A primitive root; to scan, that is, look intently at; by implication to regard with pleasure, favor or care: - (cause to) behold, consider, look (down), regard, have respect, see.
nabat speaks to perception to regard for... we see it used in these verses:
Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw <07200> that it was good.
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see <07200> what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
We can see that the scriptures do not contradict each other, and we see that God does watch and see sin and evil; not only is he able, but it is his job so to speak. It is part of his reighn or authority.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I should not have been frustrated by what Hisgrace said and this is my problem and my wrong... not yours or Hisgrace's we are responsible for our own flesh.
HisGrace, again I am sorry.
No problem HFHS. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) We weak humans frequently have our moments of fallibility.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Grams! I thought your post was great. Those are exactly the kinds of questions the unsaved ask and need answers to. If in the end all of have learned even one thing that we did not know of the scriptures then a good thing has happened. Surely, I do not know all there is to know and will not in this lifetime. Iron sharpens Iron.
You owe know apologies. I am the only one here that owes an apology and hopefully Hisgrace has accepted it.
Hisgrace. I am working on the post regarding the first scripture you posted. Let's look at that first and then if you want to talk about what Jesus said we can, but I am not sure that we will come to any common ground there. I really think that there are a whole lot of other differences between us theologically speaking that underlie our views of this issue and it is one that has been debated by many more scholarly than either of us for hundreds, if not over a thousand years without resolution and I think that is the underlying doctrines that make this so.
Anyway. I wanted to say to Grams that she has nothing to apologize for. The questions were excellent. I think that the discussion too can be excellent if we approach it from the angle of seeking the scriptural truth and not a personal issue.
I should not have been frustrated by what Hisgrace said and this is my problem and my wrong... not yours or Hisgrace's we are responsible for our own flesh.
HisGrace, again I am sorry.
now, back to my forthcoming post... ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
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HisGrace
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There is nothing to forgive, Grams. You absolutely did nothing wrong.
![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The statement that God cannot look on sin leads to the statement that God abandoned Christ on the cross. That too is a lie. Psalm 22 states that in most clear terms. Faithful and abandon are antithesis of one another. The faithful does not abandon.
Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
How can anyone argue or twist that scripture? There it is in black and white. "and canst not look on inquity." Seeing this scripture and knowing that Jesus had to bear the sins of the whole world, it stands to reason that Jesus would say, even of it were for only a split second."My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me" Crystal clear to me.
Why would Jesus say that on the cross? He is the of the same mind as God. He would know that God cannot look upon sin, and because of that, it appeared as if God had abandoned him for just a moment.
Sometimes I don't think people realize the depths of ultimate torture and cruelty Jesus went through on that cruel cross because of his love, grace and mercy for us. Can we even begin to imagine what he went through?
Isaiah 53:4.He was wounded and crushed for ours sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped and we were healed.
Yet the Lord laid on him the guilt and sins of us all
10 But it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief.
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Grams
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Oh !!! Please forgive me, I started some thing
here .....
I really wanted to answer this lady....
Who does not believe in God, knows the bible very well!
But say's she will not believe in a God who has
killed so many people and babys...
I am not bible smart....
I am learning every day.
But I sure would love to give this lady some answers .....
I am really sorry for all of this !!!
Grace and Peace Grams ~ Marlene
--------------------
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[ WARNING: EXPOSURE TO THE SON MAY PREVENT BURNING. ]
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Please know that my issue is not with you personally. My issue is with what is today the common practice of using scripture out of context to form doctrines or beliefs that are not consistant with the whole of scripture. My problem is with anyone who takes a cavalier attitude about what is written. My problem is with people teaching things about God that are not true. God is omnipotent. The statement that you made about God not being able to look on sin contradicts God's omnipotence and this thread starter expressed that fact. So which is true? God is omnipotent or God is not able to look at sin because he is so pure? The truth is GOD IS OMNIPOTENT! THe scripture if examined will show that.
The statement that God cannot look on sin leads to the statement that God abandoned Christ on the cross. That too is a lie. Psalm 22 states that in most clear terms. Faithful and abandon are antithesis of one another. The faithful does not abandon.
This as someone else tried to express in another thread is HOW the devil works. The devil twists the word, uses it out of context, manipulates it, uses parts of it to form lies.
This is serious stuff. Man lives by EVERY word. EVERY word. God did not say "You will die if you touch the fruiit" Yes, hello I know that you would have to touch the fruit to eat it, but touching it would not kill you...eating it would.
God did say I have given you every tree from which to eat and the devil said that, but the devil left out the BUT and the rest of the sentence that followed. Thus he told a LIE.
There is a reason we are given the written word. And this whole discussion is a fantastic example of that reason.
I have to go right now; I am an hour late to my grandson's birthday party, but I will come back to this and the scriptures you have given later this evening.
Again, I do not have an issue with you personally. But I have an issue with a lot of things you say because they are not grounded solidly in the scriptures. That does not seem to bother you and that is between you and God, but between me and God is to show the scripture where what is being said about the scripture or about God and Christ is contradicted by the scripture. You do not think it imortant to cross your t's and dot your i's but the scripture says every jot and title is significant and purposefully placed!
I believe that you have a problem with me in that regard. I am sorry. In that regard, I answer to ONE. However, it is not for me to be rude and I was rude because I allowed myself to be frustrated with you instead of keeping my eyes on HIM and the real important issue here which is the truth of HIS word and for that I am sorry.
gotta go.... more later
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HisGrace
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I certainly can't judge you Linda, because we all have layers of sanctification that constantly have to be peeled away, but when is this issue you have with me going to be uprooted?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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You are right Hisgrace it was rude and I should not have said it. I was a jerk to write that to you. I thought it and wrote it without thinking about how it would sound or how it would make you feel and I really did not intend to be mean, hurt you or be rude. And I was all of those things in posting that. I am very sorry. I was frustrated. We say things about God that we hear taught and we do not think of the implications and I find that frustrating. I still find it frustrating. I did not misunderstand you. God does not have a stern side either. Still I reacted to you out of my frustration. That was wrong and I am sorry. I am happy to edit it out, but you would have to edit your response to it out and we can continue on. I would like to look at the scripture that you have given us because I think that there is something important to see in them.,
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Post 6 in this thread.........
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003467#000010
God does not have a "loving side" God is love all the time through and through on all sides and in the middle in all he does.
As a loving Christian I am surprised that you would dredge this up after all this time, Linda. That's not fair - I explained that you misunderstood what I really meant. This was my reply when you brought this up. Maybe it was a poor choice of words, but I think I made it quite clear what I actually meant.
"You misunderstood me Linda. When I said the loving side, I was talking about that as opposed to the stern, chastening side. His love has many facets as you say"
I did distinctly say in that thread with bolded capital letters -
GOD IS LOVE
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I was not still on the site. I have DSL and I leave my computer on 24 seven. If I do not close my browser then it looks like I am on the site. It is 4:31 am here and I am going back to bed. But I will find the thread and send you the link tomorrow - Today, later.
Actually, here it is before I go. And I did misquote you; My apologies. You said the "loving" side of God... not the "good" side of God.
Post 6 in this thread.........
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003467#000010
God does not have a "loving side" God is love all the time through and through on all sides and in the middle in all he does.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
I truly mean you no offence, but I have to put this statement right in the same catagory of another that you once made. "I want to talk about the good side of God"
Please show me where I made this statement verbatim, Linda. I have been looking in the search engine and can't find such a statement.
I'm still waiting Linda ??? I see you are still on site.
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HisGrace
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Sin separates us from God.. There is a large chasm between us and Jesus and the Holy Spirit bridge that gap.
Hab 1:13Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
1 Timothy 6:16
He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No one has ever seen him, nor ever will. To him be honor and power forever. Amen.
I John 1:55 This is the message he has given us to announce to you: God is light and there is no darkness in him at all
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
HisGrace: quote:
I am not talking about people who sin, but sin itself.
I truly mean you no offence, but I have to put this statement right in the same catagory of another that you once made. "I want to talk about the good side of God"
Please show me where I made this statement verbatim, Linda. I have been looking in the search engine and can't find such a statement.
I still stand by my last post. Will try to find more scriptures.
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Aaron
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Praise the Lord!
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
One only has to know me to know that God in fact *approaches* the sinful and despicable. For if He could not, I would still be lost. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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HisGrace:
quote:
I am not talking about people who sin, but sin itself.
I truly mean you no offence, but I have to put this statement right in the same catagory of another that you once made. "I want to talk about the good side of God"
God does not have a good side or a kind side. God is Good through and through and even when HE is expressing anger, vengence and wrath, God is Good.
God cannot look on sinful man and not see sin itself. God can not look on the evil man does and not see sin. God comes to indwell our bodies where sin does live! God is everywhere at all times, how in the world can God look on man and the deeds of man and not be looking at sin?????
quote:
Matthew 27: 45,46 At noon, darkess fell across the whole land until three oc'clock. At about three o'clock, Jesus called out with a loud voice., "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
God left Jesus for that moment because he could not bear to look at the sins of the whole world that Jesus bore for us.
I knew that this is what you thought of and I have heard what you have espoused regarding it taught, but the fact is that this teaching does not align with scripture!
There is nothing in the scripture.... not one word that you can find that says that God cannot look upon sin. Find it and I will repent of what I have said.
There is not one word that says this and further I have given you a page of words that contradict it.
What you have espoused is a man's opinion about what was happening on that cross when those words were heard to come from the mough of Jesus.
If you look to the scripture for the answers to what seems puzzling and not to men, you will find the answers that do not contradict the rest of the word.
Here is that answer....
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
(Below you see what they thought)(But was our savior calling for elijah? Would Christ have ever called on any but the Father?) (This is completely consistant with Isaiah where it says that they (the people) thought thought thought that he was smitten of God)
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
(They thought what they thought -but look what happened....)
50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
What did HE cry in a loud voice just before giving up the GHOST? John tells us and Luke substantiates:
quote:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, [b]It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
quote:
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Does that sound like a man who believed he was forsaken even for a split second? This is Jesus bringing forth.
HE CRIED IN A LOUD VOICE; "IT IS FINISHED!"
What was finished? SIN... this is the fullness of the Godhead, bodily indwelling Jesus, doing what only God can do.... laying down life... commanding death to come...
quote:
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
IN ALL THE SCRIPTURE, those words "it is finsihed" appear in these two places.
Then what happened........
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
WHILE HE HUNG DEAD ON THE CROSS!!!
The veil was rent. A forsaken man????? NO, A pleasing sacrifice!!! Wholly acceptable to God! IN THAT MOMENT... at the MOMENT HIS SPirit left HIS flesh hanging on the cross the veil that separated man from God in the HOLY of Holiest Places was torn in half!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not after he battled satan in hell, which the scripture says no where that he did! Not after they placed him in the tomb and 3 days and nights passed. BUT THERE ON THE CROSS THE MOMENT THAT HIS SPIRIT left HIS mortal Body! The VEIL was rent!!!
So what? What could it be that Jesus was saying "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"
THE SCRIPTURE tells us; why do you look for the answers in the minds and mouths of men when the scripture tells us us and does not contradict itself?
Three places in the word that phrase appears:
Psalms 22:1 <> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Read the 22 Psalm....
Psalm 22:1 ¶ <> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 ¶ Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 ¶ I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
quote:
DID YOU SEE THE REST OF THE STORY.... IN JESUS OWN WORDS.... THIS is a Prophetic Psalam.......
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Is it any wonder that the 23rd Psalm is the one to follow? There you have Jesus speaking prophetically through Jesus... "God did not turn his face on me!"
This is completely consistent with Isaiah...
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
At no time did God the father forsake Jesus, though it appeared so. God is a faithful God. How could a faithful and just God forsake an innocent man that at the very will of God bore the sins and transgressions of a people so as to reconcile them to God?
How could a God that would forsake HIS only begotten SON in whom HE was well pleased ever be a God that you would want to serve? It is because of God's faithfulness that we can rest in HIM. Jesus was innocent that is HOW and WHY He is able to be our savior!!! A just God cannot forsake the innocent and remain JUST. It was this knowledge had at the time only by God that rent the veil and opened graves!
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
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Re this quote from me, HisGrace -God is so pure that he cannot even look at sin. He has to turn his face away - it is too unbearable for him.
Ughhhhh!!!! Read your Bible!!!
God is indeed omnipotent, and God can look upon sin. The spirit of the Holy God can indwell this body of flesh where sin resides. The scripture is absolutely full of God looking upon sin:
Was Jacob without sin?
Was Moses without sin?
I am not talking about people who sin, but sin itself.
Matthew 27: 45,46 At noon, darkess fell across the whole land until three oc'clock. At about three o'clock, Jesus called out with a loud voice., "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
God left Jesus for that moment because he could not bear to look at the sins of the whole world that Jesus bore for us.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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God created Adam. We were procreated by our parents. God created Adam in HIS image. Adam was not born.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
When we say we are created by God...we really are saying mankind is created by God, who created Adam.
God does knit us together in the womb of our mothers, God forms the spirit of man in man, but We were born.... begotten of our parents.
We are begotten of Adam in the image of Adam, which after the fall is the image of sinful flesh.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Jesus was the ONLY begotten SON of God:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
We become the temples of the living God, when we become begotten of HIM through the NEW Birth.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
That is when HIS Holy Spirit comes to dwell in this earthen vessel.
We are [u]devoid [/u]of God's spirit prior to that time. We are living souls with the spirit of sinful men.
quote:
God is so pure that he cannot even look at sin. He has to turn his face away - it is too unbearable for him.
Ughhhhh!!!! Read your Bible!!!
God is indeed omnipotent, and God can look upon sin. The spirit of the Holy God can indwell this body of flesh where sin resides. The scripture is absolutely full of God looking upon sin:
Was Jacob without sin?
Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Was Moses without sin?
Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Was Joshua without sin?
Joshua 7:10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
Before God destroyed the earth by flood HE SAW the evil....
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Was the sacrificing to idols that God saw not sin?
Deuteronomy 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
The evil that was done by the Israelites was done in the SIGHT of the LORD.....
Numbers 32:13 And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
God saw the evil of Judah's first born son...
Genesis 38:7 And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
God sees here the evil of Jeraboam......
23 ¶ In the fifteenth year of Amaziah the son of Joash king of Judah Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel began to reign in Samaria, and reigned forty and one years.
24 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD: he departed not from all the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin.
GOD SAW THE SIN THAT WAS HEAPED UPON CHRIST....
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
The problem is not that God is so pure that he cannot look upon evil!
The problem is that God is so Mighty, SO pure, SO Holy, and HIS light so bright that it destroys evil, obliterates darkness.
The problem is that man's sin keeps man from God. God is not kept from man by sin... man is kept from God by sin.
GOD comes into our life and saves us that we can enter HIS life; that we can enter HIS presence without shame.
Look at the Garden....
Because of sin Adam & Eve were naked and ashamed. Hello, they had always been naked! They hid from God, HE did not hide from them. He came to them and He spoke to them, He looked upon their sin and HE covered their nakedness and He preserved the way back to the garden for them.
When the Bible speaks of God turning his face, this is not because God is so HOLY that he can not bear to look upon sin. to turn one's face from you is to rebuke you... to be ashamed of you... to show anger toward you. To say you disgust me. It is an act of rebuke.
When are we going to start reading our BIBLEs and stop spewing everything we hear someone say as though it were the truth. The truth is written for our benefit!
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
READ YOUR BIBLE to show your self approved to GOD!
Off Rant...
Back to the orignial question:
God created man in his image; but man being created was not GOD and NOT perfect. ONLY God is good. And God cannot create himself because a created being is automatically not God who is without beginning or end. But God in HIS wisdom has made it that we who have beginning can be good because we are begotten of God and we are HOLY because HE who is our father is HOLY.
What God did was made it possible to be God all in all. God through Christ has made it possible to beget us ... to birth us OF HIS HOLY Spirit. That one day when the flesh dies and sin in the flesh is eliminated, God will be all in all and all will be good because all will be begotten of God.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
People like to think that God responded to the sin in the Garden... that HE reacted to the actions of man.
But God had a plan from the beginning and that was to destroy evil and make God to be all in all.
God created evil. So that he could destroy evil so that man could be without being evil because man was not God...
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God is omnipotent; God can be in the presence of sin. Sin cannot be in the presence of God. Because God loved man; God sent him out of HIS presence until He could redeem him and bring him safely back into God's life...
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Sin did not alienate God from us... sin alienated us from GOD. God does not come into our lives; God is in our lives; God redeems us and brings us into HIS life.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Grams:
This is what I am having trouble in trying to
answer, if some one can help me Please .
..
This is from a unsaved person..
Why not? I am asking honestly. If God created all of us, how can he not be present in all of us? How can any of God's temples be empty of God?
[I said to her]-
Because God can not be in the presence of sin
So God sees us in Christ....... once we are saved !
Good answer. I find that many people don't get it no matter how hard you try because they have a veil over their eyes.
quote:
.[She said to me]
So Grams, God was not in Adam, King David, Moses, etc., as they all came before Christ and had sin in them?
These men of old had to use sacrificial lambs to periodically make atonement for their sins. Jesus died so that we could be forever filled with his Holy Spirit.
quote:
Is God all powerful/omnipotent?
If He cannot be in the presence of sin, then He's not omnipotent.That's my thinking anyway.
God is so pure that he cannot even look at sin. He has to turn his face away - it is too unbearable for him.
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Grams
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This is what I am having trouble in trying to
answer, if some one can help me Please ...
This is from a unsaved person..
Why not? I am asking honestly. If God created all of us, how can he not be present in all of us? How can any of God's temples be empty of God?
[I said to her]
Because God can not be in the presence of sin !
So God sees us in Christ....... once we are saved !
[She said to me]
So Grams, God was not in Adam, King David, Moses, etc., as they all came before Christ and had sin in them?
Is God all powerful/omnipotent?
If He cannot be in the presence of sin, then He's not omnipotent.
That's my thinking anyway.
Wonder if some one can help me with a answer ?
My husband tried, but I could not understand him.
Thank you very much ! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[ WARNING: EXPOSURE TO THE SON MAY PREVENT BURNING. ]
Posts: 57 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2005
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