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Topic: Priorities of running a "church"
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I was thinking on this scripture: And what you were saying about not building on another's foundations and I was wondering do you see that Tim was given to your group as one of these? If so, Which one?
Ephesians 4:10 -11 he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,
I believe he did the work of an apostle in our group.
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What difficulties might you have had if God had not brought Tim to you or you had not received him?
I'm not sure. But the second question is most interesting: "What if we had not received him?" I think this was the challenge. I have a quick thought (I could write about it all night but...) Many doctrines say "The gifts have ceased and one cannot hear from God, one can only read His Word, the Bible, to discern truth." I believe this doctrine aborts any hope of life in the Spirit and fosters institutionalized means to protect the saints from the enemy...i.e. one pastor, one teacher (usually the same guy) etc. The structure we see today is alive an well because the saints really don't believe (because they are taught so) that the Spirit of God communes with their spirit and gives discernment to the saints.
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If you had to name the one most significant thing that Tim left you all with that you did not have before, what would it be?
In this time it is knowing that we are not against God...that we are faithful at least in our coming out of our denominational church. Such a thing is so locally abhorrent there was a tendency to think ourselves "rebellious".
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The scripture says that God gives these as this for these purposes, and as I was reading this I thought you know this fits perfectly with this thread. Does this answer the question of this thread? Are these the priorities of the church to the church? Are these the goals?
- 12 unto the perfecting of the saints,
- for a work of ministration,
- for a building up of the body of the Christ,
Is this what we are supposed to be doing until this time?
Yes. This is often called "the five-fold ministry". This is error. The equipping is for the saints for ministry...each body part to his own...more than 5! The 5 gifts listed are the doma gifts of governance whereby the saints are protected and equipped for service. We war against an unseen powerful enemy. If I had not been confirmed "a teacher" by my elders I may buckle (either not teach or change what God wants me to teach) against the enemy's attack.
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Ephesians 4:13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fullness of the Christ,
If we are doing these things will that prevent this, just by our being a body?
Ephesians 4:14 that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray,
The recognition of "The Body of Christ" is almost non-existent (my opinion) in the church today. Does it really break our hearts to see so many divisions in the Body of Christ...church sign here, church sign there? We are likely to explain it away as a permissible consequence of differing doctrines or worship styles. Is the Lord's judgment far off? Thank God he has tarried...but for how long?
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And if that is prevented will this be the result? What does it mean to be in true love anyway? What does it mean that “we increase TO Him in all things?”
"A new commandment I give you, love one another as I have loved you."
Jesus said this before his crucifixion so this is something other than personal sacrifice unto death. He loved us by giving Himself to the Father for the Father's use. Consequently, the Father worked through Jesus to show us His love for us. As we, the saints, give our lives to the Father the same love will work through us. As each one does this, gives up their will and gives way to the Father's, we will increase in the measure of His love.
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Ephesians 4:15 and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head—the Christ;
See? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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this verse below shows that the body of Christ is one that is fitly joined together and united, and when this happens every joint in the body is supplied by the working in measure of each single individual part and when this happens the body builds itself or increases itself in love
Ephesians 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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If this is how the body of Christ builds itself – increases itself in love, then what happens if the body is not fitly joined together and united?
What does it mean that every joint is supplied?
What happens if every joint is not supplied?
What if we neglect to attend to the “working measure of every single part” ?
If the body is not built and increased in love what is it built and increased in then?
And if this is what it is built in, whose body is it that is built anyway?
Could this be the very reason that we see churches whose “foundations are crumbling under the scrutiny of our Lord”?
Schwew. I'll get back to this. Perhaps I've given enough insight to arrive at an answer?
In love,
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi Aaron:
Thanks for sharing this with us.
It is hard to feel that you are prayerfully seeking God and HIS truth with all your being and the more that you study the aberrant the things you see. Our traditions bring us comfort, let us feel safe, and require of us almost no faith. I think however that God rarely allows us to remain in our comfort zone. I often think of Abram and how it must have felt to have God say to him...”get thee out of UR and to the place that I will show you.” The faith that required not just of him, but of Sari as well!
What a comfort it is during these times when God allows us the blessing of finding just one who sees what we see, and if we find 2 or three woahhhhh! Our cup runneth over. Praise God for Jennifer’s faithfulness, I am sure that was a great help to you during that time. I can imagine how she felt as she listened to Tim confirm what you had seen and what she herself had felt in her spirit.
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we are somewhat like Christian refugees whose church foundation crumbled under the scrutiny of our Lord. As are we so are many others going to be
Yes, this is what I see also. I have seen it coming for some time, but had no idea how it would look until just recently.
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I believe part of the reason we are where we are is to prepare a place for the stragglers who come out of their present places.
Yes, I believe this too.
I was thinking on this scripture: And what you were saying about not building on another's foundations and I was wondering do you see that Tim was given to your group as one of these? If so, Which one?
Ephesians 4:10 -11 he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,
What difficulties might you have had if God had not brought Tim to you or you had not received him?
If you had to name the one most significant thing that Tim left you all with that you did not have before, what would it be?
The scripture says that God gives these as this for these purposes, and as I was reading this I thought you know this fits perfectly with this thread. Does this answer the question of this thread? Are these the priorities of the church to the church? Are these the goals?
- 12 unto the perfecting of the saints,
- for a work of ministration,
- for a building up of the body of the Christ,
Is this what we are supposed to be doing until this time?
Ephesians 4:13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,
If we are doing these things will that prevent this, just by our being a body?
Ephesians 4:14 that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray,
And if that is prevented will this be the result? What does it mean to be in true love anyway? What does it mean that “we increase TO Him in all things?”
Ephesians 4:15 and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head—the Christ;
this verse below shows that the body of Christ is one that is fitly joined together and united, and when this happens every joint in the body is supplied by the working in measure of each single individual part and when this happens the body builds itself or increases itself in love
Ephesians 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.
If this is how the body of Christ builds itself – increases itself in love, then what happens if the body is not fitly joined together and united?
What does it mean that every joint is supplied?
What happens if every joint is not supplied?
What if we neglect to attend to the “working measure of every single part” ?
If the body is not built and increased in love what is it built and increased in then?
And if this is what it is built in, whose body is it that is built anyway?
Could this be the very reason that we see churches whose “foundations are crumbling under the scrutiny of our Lord”?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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To continue...
We have visitors attend our meeting. They are usually friends/family of the saints who normally attend. Before they take communion with us we confirm that they are born of the Spirit. They are free to take part in our meetings in every way. Often we see it as an opportunity to teach on the Body of Christ: how He is alive on earth through the saints...all who are born of the Spirit.
We had some who came and presumed to be teachers with knowledge superior than our own. While we are the first to admit we have much to learn they pressed to issues so much people were bruised. Against the elders' request they continued to debate during our meetings...teaching became more like arguing. They were asked to leave. They did. One came back recently and was mostly silent throughout the meeting. We appreciated his show of respect.
Generally we minister to non-believers outside of our meetings. Those who come, however, have the gospel presented to them after our meeting. If a visiting believer has no church home they are welcomed into our meetings as they desire. If they have a church home they are welcomed into our group whenever they show up (as some occasionally do throughout the year).
Now, as far as "not building upon another's foundation" goes...we are somewhat like Christian refugees who's church foundation crumbled under the scrutiny of our Lord. As are we so are many others going to be (thinking of the Church of Christ, Catholics, Methodists, etc.). I believe part of the reason we are where we are is to prepare a place for the stragglers who come out of their present places.
Aaron
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Aaron
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Having left a denomination the thought that plagued us was "The Body of Christ cannot be divided. Did we do the wrong thing?" In our hearts we knew we were following the Lord but church tradition said otherwise.
Tim Small, the man who came to us, basically confirmed to us that we were actually following the Lord. This reminds me...during the trials in the denominational church I labored in the Bible studying the word and the will of the Lord. I spoke about these things with Jennifer, my wife. I believe, because of my desire and search the Lord showed my the things he had hid from me up until that point. The things I discovered were not "traditional" in fact they were so anti-traditional I felt like an abberation...I would even tell my wife, "Honey, these things I'm seeing are so wierd... don't take my word for them...I'm still studying" She would kindly tell me not to worry and how the things I was saying rang true within her spirit.
Anyway, Tim's first message to our group confirmed about 90% of what I had been saying to my wife. I remember my wife just staring at me as Tim brought up each truth I wrestled with. I had never met this man and I dared not tell anyone what I was thinking and here was this stranger confirming point-by-point the things on my heart. I cried. So did my wife. I thanked God for putting my angst to rest and showing His love to me (and my wife).
Ok, back to Paul...I agree with what you see in the Apostolic church (is there any other kind? )
Bah, I have to go. I will try to get back with you this afternoon. I must say the questions are perfect and touch on things I am trying to understand today.
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I could keep you going with questions for a while, Aaron. You probably know that dont you? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I do hope that you will at some point share some of the things that this man who came to you taught. And I am interested to know if you see yourselves sending out someone from your group to plant another group or how your group will grow or will it grow.
I have been thinking a lot about the church of the Apostles lately, Paul really did not go to plant churches where others had worked to do this.... but where they had not...he talks about not building on anyone else's foundation. So he must have left the churches that he established to grow themselves. Do you think this is so? How does that look here? Maybe this is another thread? But I am just curious how you see growth as it relates to your group? Does your each - personal evangelism bring others to your group? If you spoke to me a co-worker about Christ and I wanted to become a disciple of Christ and was not, would I be invited to your group? If you found that I was already born again would I be invited to your group if I had not group or fellowship I was meeting with? If I did? Not to imply of course that you have all the answers, but I am curious about how this things are working for you and your group?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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One of the elders will usually have a message or perhaps a question to the group that prompts us to find the answer. Sometimes I will have a message for the group. We have even listened to messages on CD (from another teacher) but that is rare.
We have communion at least once a month sometimes more. We usually buy the bread and grape juice...grape juice because the older children are involved in communion.
The children usually gather with us when we worship and then go off together during the lesson. If they seem particularly rowdy (as all children can be at times) an adult or two will gather with them to teach them a Bible lesson. We do not insist that the children sit with us during the teachings.
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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How do you determine who will prepare a sermon or lesson for the meeting each week? Do you meet more than once a week? How do you handle the children, do they gather with you during this time? How do you handle communion and who bakes the bread?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I dont think that you have a condemning bone in your body Aaron, Neither did I desire to do that but I am not as graceful as you. I kind of embarassed myself when I offered to print a bulletin for the church and was explained why we did not have one. It was very strange to me; but now I prefer it. Doesn't mean I dont still read mine when we are at the other church - even take it home and paste it on the fridge for the dates and reminders ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Just to be clear I wasn't condemning either an order or a bulletin.
There is order in our meetings but I wouldn't call it "an order". We are likely to have music before teaching and prayer before music but... And we've come to respect that the Lord does not simply work in our time together on Sundays...He's worked in our lives all week! So, when we gather there is always a time of fellowship and sharing our struggles/celebrations since our last meeting.
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I can relate to those kinds of struggles; Do you not think that it is possible to have an order, but not a schedule?
Here is an example of what I mean:
In one of the two churches that we fellowship in, there is no bulletin,for exactly that reason, we want the Holy Spirit to be free to move in what ever way that HE desires.
Coming from a Lutheran Church background most of my adult churchgoing years, you can imageine how odd this was to me at first - and oh, my they raised their hands in praise too! And Shouted Haleujah and Amen too. I was a sad case ill tell you what!
But anyway we have an order - subject at any time to change and no real schedule other than we meet at a beginning time.
We begin with music, but it is not at all unusual for one of the ones in the band to stop and start giving a testimony or a praise or praying in the spirit, or for the pianist to comtinue playing a song through because the peace of the Holy Spirt has so filled the room or to stop playing all together for the same reason because the silence of worship has so filled the room. It is neither uncommon for someone in the pew to stand and say Pastor can we pray, I feel a spirit of disruptive nature or ill will among us and the pastor will lead us in prayer.
We always have a time of prayer requests, but it is not uncommon for someone to stop the service and say pastor, I feel that God has laid it on my heart that we stop right now and pray for those fighting that fire or for so and so who is not here or what ever the spirit has given them a burden for. Sometimes we will just go around the room praying with one person offerning up prayer then the next and amazingly no two people ever begin to pray at the same time though no one knows who will pray next and our eyes are all closed. This will go on till there is silence and then our pastor will close with thanksgiving.
There is always a time for Praise or testimony of how God has been moving in our lives and this can go for as long as there is praise or testimony someone wants to give.
We always have time for laying on hands and healing and usually this is at the end of the meeting because we will do this for as long as there is need an Pastor will say if you need to go you just slip out and go but we will be here till the spirit tells us we can go.
This does not either keep someone one from standing even in the middle of a sermon and saying I need prayer right now and people will go and lay on hands right then.
Sometimes, Pastor will say, "well I prepared a sermon for today, but looks like God had better plans." and he wont preach, maybe he will preach that sermon that night instead. We will have spent the time worshiping or praying or laying on hands or what ever it was that the Spirit wanted to do this day.
We have 2 resident poets and many gifted vocalists and there is always time for them to share with us and bless the Lord with their gifts.
Our pastor may initiate these things by saying does anyone have a praise or does anyone have a prayer request etc.... and so we do have an order, but we do not ever put God on a schedule and we do not box him into our order either. Our pastor is so gracious he is never bothered by the Spirit changing the day's plans.
In the other church we attend, there is a bulletin and an order and love the people there too and the pastor is a friend and a counselor to Hal and we love to hear him preach, he is a gifted and annointed preacher, but the schedule in that building does not allow for the moving of the spirit that we see in our other church.
I can tell you, It is ironic because not too long ago we were traveling and went to church with some friends that are Lutheran and being back in the Lutheran style service, and I dont think I could ever go back to that style of meeting again!
I am sure to a visitor our church seems odd, but we like it.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Good questions.
The challenges that face our small group seem to have one theme: loving one another as Christ loved us.
Just last Sunday everyone spoke openly about the difficulty of having no set order or events when we gather. We have no schedule, no "church bulletin" from which to take our cues.
The discussion focused on submitting to one another in each one's particular gifting of the Lord. For instance when Wanda has a burden to pray is time given for her to pray? Does she feel she can ask for such time and how is such a thing asked for to begin with? How do we receive Gretchen when she speaks prophetically? How are others functioning in their gift and their responsibility to the Lord and the saints?
With no pre-ordained order of things I think we feel the burden of "doing something significant" during our gatherings. No doubt this burden is connected to our traditional idea of what "church should be".
It is not easy. For me personally I feel I make more mistakes than not.
I'll tell you: it is when we are assured of ourselves that the Lord seems far off. When we are desperate He seems close. No doubt the Lord is stretching us the place where love is not only our goal but also our method of life.
We have a lot to learn.
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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How blessed you were that God brought this man to your group! How do you find meeting in this smaller group compared to when you were meeting with a larger group in a church building? What are the benefits or challenges?
We joined with a small group in our church for couples Bible study that we held in the homes of the members of our small group, there were 5 couples, and there was no authority or structure in our group, but it was a very powerful time for us all in the Lord because we became very much a family of believers and we found ourselves meeting needs both spiritual and physical in the group almost without thought and times of prayer.... God would put on each of hearts separately the same persons of situations to pray for in our actual church and we would not discuss it outside the group but find that we all came to the group with the same burdens having been laid upon us so that we could pray corporately about them, some of these were serious issues of bondage or oppression in our body, but also in our physical community that God wanted addressed apparently.
We are not meeting now as life events have taken us all in different directions, but we all miss the time and each other and we still have this connectedness even though we dont meet together except when we go to meet at the church.
Were were all friends before this, all liked each other and were involved together in the church group, and our church is small - 100 people in membership and maybe 50-70 in attendance regualary, but God was not moving in us with the same power that he moved within us corporately as a small group nor does he now that we do not meet. (I dont speak to moving in us as individuals - but as a corporate group)
I just wonder if you find this kind of difference in your small group?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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At the demise of our denominational group (I spoke about it in another thread http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002079#000028 ) many left that gathering and went elsewhere. Some met together in homes. This was the beginning of our group. Since then we have had other, local, believers meet with us. Some have stayed some have not.
About 4 months into our meetings we were told of a man who was similarly kicked out of the pulpit (as was our pastor). He continued to teach the Word to anyone who would listen. We invited him to come to our meetings. He taught us, helped us understand issues of church living and structure, and helped each one discover their gifts and calling to the Body of Christ. This work was his calling. He never asked for payment or a salary believing full well that he was employed by God and so he looked to God for his wages. I know many of us gave our tithes and offerings to him.
Over the course of about 3 years he continued to meet with us on a regular schedule: sometimes as a group and sometimes with just the men (to us he taught the responsibility of shepherding). He (and his wife and children) became a friend to all and like a family member. Then, one afternoon after he taught the group on the responsibility of the saints one to another he said that the time had come for him to move on; there was another group he was being lead into (a group like ours) and he had to go.
Before he left he named the men who would be our elders (Al and Mark) and spoke of the other callings upon the saints. For me he named the gift of teaching and confirmed my gift by the laying on of hands (he and Al, both). In our group there are others with the gift of teaching, even elders, so the sole responsibility of teaching does not lie upon my shoulders. I am grateful for such support.
Aaron
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LaurieFL
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I would also like to hear more about your assembly of believers and how it came about, Aaron. Thanks for sharing
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Well you can count me in, Aaron, I most certainly do! I would also like to hear what your position is in this body(for lack of better word - position) - What gift has God given this body in you?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Yesterday our church met in the home of one of our elders, Al. He and his wife are about 75 years old. Both taught English in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Al also taught Greek in the States. Al always has a brief teaching for us when we gather together. He and his wife have the heart of a pastor.
My other elder, Mark, is a retiring school teacher. He actually taught me in grade school. Mark has the heart of a teacher and encourager. I have come to love Mark over time…he ceased to be “my ex-teacher” and became “my elder in the Lord” when I leaned on him quite heavily during a very troubling time.
These two are the elders in authority over me.
Then there is Doral. An elder by age and respect (mine to him). He the oldest one in our group. A sweet, sweet man who shares the love of Christ with words of encouragement and grace. He has an affinity for the poetic and his lessons are often written in meter. His wife, Gretchen, often does the work of a prophet…her lessons are often corrective and encouraging at the same time. She’s learned to lean on the Lord (Himself and through others) when her messages are particularly difficult. For an old woman she has great strength and she and Doral have suffered much for the Lord.
Paul, a huge truck driving man (his wife Wanda is less than ½ his size) is a lovely, peaceful gentleman. He looks like a mountain man: big beard, suspenders, about 6’3”. He may be the smartest man I know personally. But he chose to drive truck. He’s an historian by heart, though, and he has a great love for Jewish history. His historical teachings are often rich with contemporary lessons. Wanda has a gift of intercessory prayer and discernment. She has a passion for the Lord’s work and can often see what He is doing in a certain situation.
Wayne, also my elder by age and respect, loves to worship the Lord with his voice and his guitar. He has a knack for dividing the word of God…a teacher at heart. He has a great burden for proper authority in the Kingdom and proper order among the saints. His wife and children have hearts for the Lord’s work among the needy and/or impoverished. Wayne will often have a teaching for us.
I could go on about Tony (a server), Brad (a husband), Bonnie (an intercessor), Tammy (her weakness is her strength), Jennifer (a discerner and she asks great questions), Sarah (a joy), Teresa (a defender of the faith), etc, etc…. I can write about these people all day.
These are the church with whom I meet.
Do you want to know how we came to be together and a bit about the structure of our gatherings?
Aaron
Edited: some missing words and spelling errors.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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BUMP - I dont want this one to get lost; I am looking forward to hearing more from you Aaron. I loved the article David, and Peh, I agree with you and I feel that the Lord has spoken those same words to me. I am really looking forward to hearing more from any who home church... I know that there are those here who do. Maybe I can roust up Dale and Wetshoes, I know that they both homechurch and I believe that Barrykind does too. Maybe if the Lord allows tomorrow I will send out some emails and we can get some input from them.
Laurie I think you are right about the burden on the pastors especially in a small church. Both the churches that we attend are small - 100 people or so. And both the pastors are very very active in the community one with youth and the other with shut ins and the elderly or those at the hospital. Plus I think the one teaches 3 differnt Bible studies during the week with his wife at people's homes who cannot get to the church. When you add to that building issues and a sermon on Sunday at two services and a family it does not leave much time to just be with God. Both our churches are very genrous giving to the pastors and to missions and to the body itself and the one pastor still has to work part time because he has a large family and two kids in college. I cannot imagine the stress of that. Their home is like a community house to boot with members and members children in and out of there all the time, It is like a revolving door.
We actually hire out the cleaning there and the yard work is done by the men in the congregation but there are certainly other responsibilities that fall on the pastor or his family.
A lot of the contact type ministries fall on people in the church who have ministies, one runs the prayerchain, another sends cards, another checks on memebers who are MIA, another handles outreach, but this is easier for us than most because we have a lot of older members who have the time that some churches dont have because both people work and people have young families.
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peh
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I found that a good article, David. What I read of it, anyway, seemed very balanced and all.
HFHS said, "because we all live far across town from one another and are not involved in one anothers' daily lives at home"
I believe that is why the Lord has told me He is going to "raise up a church (Body) unlike any now known", ie, to bring us into real involvement with one another and close proximity in our living choices.
He spoke this saying to me in connection with His sending me to KY to set up the Refuge He wants for His people, but I have come to understand that He was not only speaking of this area.
Since He stated it will be like none known, I assume it will be different in all respects from what we commonly call "church" now. I have not been given any more particulars on it directly since then, but am seeing more and more about what is wrong in the church(es) as it is "now known". Also, getting glimpses into how He might be going to "set it right".
And to state my opinion, LaurieFL, there definitely seems to be imbalance in a lot of churches of which I've been made aware.
It is very typical to find building programs far outranking other concerns, or at least taking a prominent place in the thinking of the members. I do believe also that thinking of the buildings as the church has taken too big a place in the Christian viewpoint.
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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KnowHim
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I thought the below was interesting reading:
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Is there a sure way to avoid barrenness, heresy and all those other things? There is one and it is the only one. Matthew 18:20 gives us the master key:
“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
This is our Lord himself, speaking about the local church. It is important to note that in spite of what you’d conclude from all the modern hype and sloganeering, He does not say that the local church necessarily must be a home church. What, however, is absolutely indispensable for this group of believers, be they few or be they many: if they want to be a true church, i.e. a New Testament church, they must congregate around Christ, i.e. they must be Christ-centered; not self centered, denomination centered, pastor centered, charisma centered ..., no, not even home centered.
The NT church in Laodicea had stopped to be NT, i.e. they had allowed all kinds of things to come in that had nothing to do with the simple pattern laid down by the Lord. But what was the real trouble, the basic trouble? After only a few decades, these first century redeemed in Laodicea had stopped to be Christ-centered. Rev. 3 shows us the devastating results: Jesus Christ, far from being “in the midst”, was outside the door (Rev. 3:20). In his estimation they had become spiritual beggars: “wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked.” There is no indication they had stopped being a home church, but they certainly were not a HIM church.
This last one of our Lord’s epistles, as much a marvelous gem as the other six, also shows us HIS way to restoration. It is not “revival meetings”, “reorganization” of some sort, “hands-on leadership”, deeper Bible teaching, greater involvement of more members, etc., etc. We are not saying these are not good things. What we are saying is that the human “flesh” is quite capable of many ‘good things’, yet without the Lord being in them at all.
Restoration has to do with the believer’s individual response to his knocking. The One who stands at the door does not just want that door opened to him, and He does not merely want to come in, or even just sit at that “table”. Once He sits at the believer’s table, that guest will turn into the host, the one who presides. Says He:“.. I will sup with him and he with ME!” Now will that believer let Him ...? That is the question ...: to let him or not to let him! The willingness of the church’s Head cannot be in doubt, but what about the member’s willingness?
It all has to do directly with the Message of the Cross. In Jesus’ own words: “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me” (Luke 9:23). To pretend to “sup” with the Lord, i.e. giving him first place in one’s life, and to pretend to give him center place in the Christian meetings, is just that: empty pretense. It is utter foolishness. It leads to disaster. Only the sincere and humble acceptance of the Message of the Cross leads to the true experience of personal fellowship with Him. It is the one ingredient for “HIM churching” that is indispensable. Nothing else will do. If you have a thousand good ingredients to start a home church, but this one is missing, you have nothing at all and it is better to not even start.
In very many cases homes may still be the best places to gather around Him, in all simplicity. And, of course, for most meetings that also means around an open Bible. His grace is still absolutely available and sufficient. It is there to break down all this silly ‘pretense’ in us, so that his cross-life, which is his resurrection-life, may be wonderfully experienced, making “HIM churching” one of the most precious components of our daily lives. More importantly: it is what HE is longing for! To see how great is his pleasure when He sees it, you only need to look at Psalm 133.
http://www.ntmu.net/homechurching.htm
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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posted
Good Laurie. I'm glad we are on the same page.
I am part of a church who meets in homes. I will write about it later.
Good questions.
Aaron
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LaurieFL
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posted
Aaron, I took no offense at your posting at all, but rather found it to be in the same vein as my questioning....how did we come to define "church" as a place and a list of activites and list of "must-do's", rather than the body of Christ?
Now one thing I will say is that the church I attend is small and people don't give what they should, but a huge percentage of the moneys taken in are used to support missionaries we have in the field. My pastor doesn't believe in taking an offering or passing the plate, and will only speak of giving when it is a passage included in the scripture we are studying that day. He receives no salary from the church and I often worry about his finances and have been asking the Lord to show me how or if I should try to help him and his wife.
Anyway, I just think that this whole business of church services, church buildings, church activites can become a bondage to us and we (especially pastors) must be careful to never strive in the flesh but to always follow the guidance and leading of the Holy Spirit.
I didn't see anyone offer any insight into home churches, and how one would go about making sure sound teaching was offered and who would be the leader? Also, if anyone has any experience with a home church, does it come closer to hitting the mark of the New Testament church?
I know we always have humans involved in any gathering of believers, and thus we have imperfections innately built-in, so I am not seeking to criticize my pastor at all. I am mostly just curious if anyone else sees some of this as a tradition of man that has gone too far and removed some of what the church was once intended to be.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Oh I really liked that Aaron! But then I have to ask the same qestion LaurieFl asked... does the whole concept of the church building become something that hinders of is destructive to the function of the body?
Did not the Apostolic Church gather in homes of the Church?
And was not then the focus of the attending to the needs of the body and not the building and were not also the resources delgegated to the attending to or ministering to the needs of the body not the pastor and the church building?
You know the answer.
The building does not *necessarily* become a hindrance to the works of ministry but often it is treated as an end unto itself. For instance, if we ask someone "How stable is the foundation of your church?" The answer will likely be about bricks and mortar and not about doctrine and the Holy Spirit and the saints. So, the church is fine as long as the building is standing and not in disrepair.
On the other hand many others, if asked, may list the numerous programs and goings-on sponsored by their churches. The assumption: activity = life. Yet, few will know little about the spiritual health of the congregation.
And if the church is about people, the saints called out by God, then when was the last time a pastor/preacher asked another saint to leave the service (before the offering) to go meet with a brother or sister who was not present?
A lot of thoughts. Little time.
Good to see you again, Linda. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Oh I really liked that Aaron! But then I have to ask the same qestion LaurieFl asked... does the whole concept of the church building become something that hinders of is destructive to the function of the body?
Did not the Apostolic Church gather in homes of the Church?
And was not then the focus of the attending to the needs of the body and not the building and were not also the resources delgegated to the attending to or ministering to the needs of the body not the pastor and the church building?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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posted
Laurie,
I've learned a lot from your postings on this board so I hope you do not see this post as a criticism directed at you personally but rather, one directed at the traditions of men that have entered the church.
Let me re-phrase the title of this thread and let's see if it changes anything:
From: Priorities of running a "church"
To: Priorities of running a "people called out by God"
Does the re-phrasing, at all, change the context of the statement? To me, the second statement seems wrong. "Running a people" sounds like communism (or worse).
Perhaps, then, it is our concept of "the church" that needs attending and not the projects therein.
Thoughts? Comments?
Aaron
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TEXASGRANDMA
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My son goes to a Church where they do not believe in members but believe all should be workers. This has been great for my son because from day one he has worked in the Church doing the computer work and helping with the presentation on Sunday mornings. But, at the same time they allow you to seek what is comfortable for you and where God leads you.
We visited a Calvary Chapel Church in our town for a couple of weeks. The preacher was so stressed about a desire for a new parking garage that his sermons were mostly push for more money and despair that they were not getting things done more quickly. We ended up going back to the Baptist Church.
I do believe God has a place for everyone but sometimes it is not working in the Church but doing things on the outside. Even our job can change as we get older or God moves us from one place to another. I do not believe it is the Pastor's job to assign jobs. I believe a Pastor should announce from the pulpit that we need a Children Church worker and I would appreciate that you will be praying that if it is God's will for you to fill that position that God will show this to you.
There are some people not qualified to be a Sunday School teacher. When I was young I and my best friend were pressured into teaching a Sunday School class. We were not trained and were total failures at it and never did it again.
God had not called us for the class because if HE had, He would have equipped us to do the job. Yes Moses felt unqualified but God equipped him with the talent needed to do the job. When a person is pressured to do a job that they are not qualified for then it is a failure.
A young mother can do work for God. When I was a young mother God used me to send letters to shut in's in the Church. I would pray and search the scriptures and he would help me write letters to these wonderful folks who had served the Lord faithfully for many years but were now house-bound.
Many times they would call to say that I had said just what they needed. OF course this was not me, but God working through me.
My Aunt was nearly house bound and God used her to call people on the phone every week to check on them. When she died 6 people came up and told how her calls every week encouraged them.
So if you are a young parent and feel God can't use you, don’t believe that.
If ever again somebody in the Church tries to pressure you to take a certain job, then tell them you will agree to pray with them for God to fill the job with who He chooses. If it is you or someone else, God's will be done.
I hope this helps. God bless,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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SoftTouch
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I can relate to that pressure to serve in places where you're not qualified...
The Lord has given us each Gifts to use for the Edification of the Body and that's where HE expects us to Serve. Yet, there are some who will quote (out of context) "I can do all things in Christ who Strengthens me" to Shame anyone who says they're not qualified to serve in a position that another thinks they ought to serve in.
A perfect example of this was at the church Steven used to go to school at. One of their Elders had gotten off a phone call with a woman who had very nicely told him she couldn't perform a certain function the elders had asked her to. He then had a conversation with another church member in the office (where I was doing volunteer work for the school there at this time) and was Angry because the woman refused to do as she was told. He used that scripture as his proof text. I was just shocked and saddend to hear it. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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bygrace
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I have ran into this same type of situation...
I do not believe that anyone should enter a ministry without be called to do so.
"many have went when they were not sent"
There is much pressure to perform in a lot of churches. You know your calling, and you have a job that God has designed just for you. I have ended up doing things in misery because I went on my own accord. I don't think this is lazy at all, I say obiedient! Many can't see all the works we do for him behind the scenes.
bygrace
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LaurieFL
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I have been having some thoughts about the usual idea of a church and wanted to run them by some of you and find out your opinions.
I go to a small Calvary Chapel. They preach sound, Biblical teaching in the expositional style and I am much-fed by the teaching. However, I have been bothered since I arrived at the church by a few things and it continues to grow.
- I am bothered by the amount of time spent on the caretaking of the building by the pastor and his continuous requests that we help also. It is a small church on some farmland purchased very cheaply and the building was built by the men of the church, but I still feel all of this upkeep is busy work and a distraction from the focus on Christ. I feel the pressure of keeping it all together weighs heavily on the shoulders of the pastor and oftentimes makes him crabby. If we met at people's homes, none of this pressure would exist. I begin to feel a church building in and of itself could be evil - a distraction and stumbling block.
- There is a lot of pressure to get involved in serving at the church. I used to think this was good and Biblical but am now beginning to be convinced that stressing people out to do secretarial work, cleaning, yardwork, electrical, running the music slides etc. is not necessarily part of God's calling to us. There are overtones of guilting people if they aren't volunteering time for the church itself. I believe ministering to the sick members of the church and the community, as well as the poor, the widows, the children is all more important.
Am I wrong? Am I being lazy? I just told the pastor I do not feel called to serve in the church in any capacity, not even children's ministry (which I do feel is important, but do not feel I am *called* to do it). I feel I am a missionary in my home and with my family and also at the Godless, heathen university I attend.
Is the organized church and the buildings where we meet a source of stress and distraction that God would not really want for us? I feel even at the tiny church I attend we are unable to meet each other's needs in the manner of the church of Acts, because we all live far across town from one another and are not involved in one anothers' daily lives at home. Home churches, small groups seem to me to be the way to get the atmosphere of real church, growing in Christ together, holding one another accountable, taking care of one anothers' needs rather than paying lip service to them. But then how do you find and ensure sound teaching - who is called to shepherd a home church flock?
Help me out here with your thoughts, prayers, and insight.
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