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Topic: Can lust and love coincide?
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
And of course, NGCapnJack and girlfriend, in Western Society, people usually do not get married until their early twenties or so, but in other countries, like Berber in northwest Africa, they get married around 13 or 14 (or something like that) so that when these normal sexual feelings arise for them, they are not in the pickle that you and your girlfriend are in, in Western Society.
Perhaps she can put on an Iranian chador or an Afghan burka when you or she comes to visit? ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
Whether you are able to succeed in this matter I do not know, but I do think that the LORD God of Israel honors your intentions and willingnesses.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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Laurie, I agree that it is ok to be powerfully attracted to your spouse, but when a single person gets into areas of fantasizing, it can be very frustrating, and they can be caught up an all-consuming lust that can't happen and there is no healthy outlet.
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NGCapnJack
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Wise words LaurieFL, but you have to admit the details are confusing. Jesus gave us the "What", and not the "Why" or other details...
I have to pick on your third paragraph. Many people get uneasy when a teenager mentions the word love, because we are apparently immature or inexperienced, and apparently this means that we cannot have geniune feelings toward the opposite sex. I believe that the love needed for marriage cannot be felt until there is some form of desire. With that said, love can hit at any time in your life and who are you to deny it? God gave me these feelings, and my philosophy is that the Lord has a hand in everything and directly effects your life when you pray to Him. I feel that it is through God that I have even faced difficulties in my life, especially with her, at exactly the perfect moment, so that even if this relationship did not last, I have no regrets because of the valuable life experiences it has given me.
Now, you're assuming that I won't accept God into my life? You're even going so far as to say that by knowing what I want, I'm blocking God out. By that logic I could sit around all day waiting for Him to tell me what He wants me to do and get nothing that I want accomplished because it might be against His will. God has given us free will, and if He wants anything, He just needs to give us the message and it is up to us to follow it. I don't think relationship is against the Lord, especially when we often try to focus on what He seems to want. Now if the situation you said were to happen, then so be it, I will follow God wherever if I know He wants something.
In conclusion, the only reason I could see worry in a young relationship is that it is often immature, dangerous and could lead to sexual actions. Not all of them are like that, and even if people go through those relationships, they'll never be mature without evaluating a few bad experiences. I appreciate that you empathize my situation, but I'm not the type of person who gives up on things because I'm "too young". Sorry for this little speech, I just felt the need to explain that just because I'm young, does not mean this relationship is harmful and I feel that I have personally benefited from it.
I never said I know I want to get married to her, but I won't deny that it would sure be really nice.
God bless you
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Arr matey, May the Lord Bless yer soul. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
"The LORD is my Shepherd" (Psalm 23).
Posts: 30 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2005
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LaurieFL
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posted
I am not sure I agree at all with the definitions presented by the two of oyu regarding lust. Regardless of that fact though, I maintain that it IS okay to be powerfully physically attracted to your spouse, to desire to have sex with them, and to even think about it on occasion, which is my definition of lust in this case. In fact, a refusal to think about your spouse in this way often leads to dysfunction in the relationship, which is something warned against by Paul. In marriage, our bodies are no longer our own but belong to our spouse.
However, I definitely believe it is inappropriate and sinful to allow yourself to think this way about anyone other than someone to whom you are married. Jesus said that looking at someone lustfully is the same as committing the sexual act with them, in other words thinking upon the act is the same as committing the act. Following this logic, it is not wrong to carry out this act with your spouse, so therefore it is not wrong to look upon them and think about their physical being or the act of consummation with them. I think most of us married ladies enjoy it when our husband notices us and says complimentary things about our figure and admires us. It is part of what keeps the physical connection going.
Frankly, it worries e that at your gae, you think you know who you want to be with forever and are struggling already so much with this issue. I think you both would be far better served by letting the romantic relationship go for now and focusing on what God wants you to do with your life. Your life as a Christian is not your own, but God's to do with as He pleases. He may want you to be a missionary in Uganda and her to be a teacher in California. By already assuming you know what you want for your future, you are cutting off possibilities for what God may want you to do for Him later!
Also, I will extend to you my empathy because I know that it is difficult to think about much else than love and sex once you hit puberty. In times past, you two would probably be married now or soon, and this issue of self-control would not be so long-term. However, we live in the society in which we live, and that places a higher burden upon the Christian who wishes to remain pure until marriage.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Exactly, lust is usually an uncontrolled and overpowering desire, which means that you are being consumed by your thoughts which may lead you to actions. One can be attracted to someone, and even passionate, without lusting. One can even have thoughts of that person if they do not dwell on them, because as soon as you give in to those thoughts and as soon as you defile or objectify that person in your head, you have sinned.
Bravo!! Looks like you have grasped the concept of uncontrollable lust, and will be aware of the warning signs. God will help you.
---Bondage ----- Freedom ----
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NGCapnJack
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quote:
Originally posted by LaurieFL:
Marriage is the ONLY context in which it is NOT a sin to lust after someone.
I disagree with you. I believe that the reason lust and the other Deadly Sins are bad is because they consume you. Even in marriage, when you lust for your partner's body you are detaching yourself from the spiritual aspect of this relationship and essentially detaching yourself from God. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying that you can't be attracted and even passionate about someone, but that's different from lust. I thought I briefly explained how I thought this was different above.
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
To add to Laurie's post, the Bible defines lust as sin, and says that we should not be pre-occupied with the matters of the flesh or body (of the physical world) but should be producing Godly fruits of the Spirit.
Exactly, lust is usually an uncontrolled and overpowering desire, which means that you are being consumed by your thoughts which may lead you to actions. One can be attracted to someone, and even passionate, without lusting. One can even have thoughts of that person if they do not dwell on them, because as soon as you give in to those thoughts and as soon as you defile or objectify that person in your head, you have sinned.
2 Tim.2:22
Run from anything that stimulates youthful lust. Follow anything that makes you want to do right.
I've run into a little problem here. My attraction to her can lead to a "youthful lust" if I don't control it; however, my love makes me want to do what's right. I cannot run away and follow at the same time.
Phil. 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
That's a nice quote ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
Thanks for the input to both of you.
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Arr matey, May the Lord Bless yer soul.
"The LORD is my Shepherd" (Psalm 23).
Posts: 30 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2005
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HisGrace
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To add to Laurie's post, the Bible defines lust as sin, and says that we should not be pre-occupied with the matters of the flesh or body (of the physical world) but should be producing Godly fruits of the Spirit.
Gal. 5:22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulnes, gentleness and self-control.
There are different kinds of lust but the here are some dictionary definitions of sexual lust:
- self-indulgent sexual desire (personified as one of the deadly sins) .
- intense sexual desire or appetite.
- uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite
- a passionate or overmastering desire or craving
The Bible says -
2 Tim.2:22
Run from anything that stimulates youthful lust. Follow anything that makes you want to do right. Pursue faith and love and peace, and enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts.
James 1:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
2 Peter 2:11 So I warn you to keep away from evil desires because they fight against your very souls.
How do we know the difference between real love and lust? When the feelings become uncontrollable and become appetites and longings that can't be satisfied, leaving you wanting more, I think there is a problem, and you are in danger of becoming enslaved to these cravings. You have to pray that you see your girlfriend in God's way.
Jesus understands and is well able to help you, because he was tempted in every area in which we are tempted, but never yielded to sin.
Hebrews 4: 15,16 This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same temptations we do, yet he did not sin.
So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy and we will find grace to help us when we need it.
Phil. 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
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LaurieFL
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Of coutrse love and lust can safely and honorably and enjoyably coincide within the framework of a marital relationship. The Bible talks about the physical aspects of adoring our spouse on a number of occasions, in Proverbs, in Song of Solomon, Genesis, and in the New Testament in a few places. We women are told that our desires shall be for our husbands, and men are told to enjoy and take comfort in certain aspects of their wives' female form.
Marriage is the ONLY context in which it is NOT a sin to lust after someone. In your case, by allowing yourself to fantasize about your girlfriend, you are sinning against God, against yourself, and against your girlfriend.
My opinion is that it is wonderful that you want to commit yourselves to chastity and purity, but that you have to commit your mind and spirit to purity, not just your body. Purity isn't about adhering to the letter of the law but to the spirit of the law, by conducting ourselves as Jesus would have us do. He sees our hearts.
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NGCapnJack
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posted
HisGrace,
I will definitely take heed of your advice and make sure to watch out for any warning signs of the devil's traps. I deeply appreciate your support.
However, there's still a question that is nagging me. Are married couples allowed to be attracted to each other and desire each other, within the boundaries of love? In other words...
"Can lust and love truly coincide?"
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Arr matey, May the Lord Bless yer soul.
"The LORD is my Shepherd" (Psalm 23).
Posts: 30 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by NGCapnJack:
If you were referring solely to sex, then I see what you mean, but sex is a big no-no.
That is what God is telling you, but the devil is a master at deceit and disguise. More mature Christians than you have been brought down by his crafty tricks. I have heard of preachers losing their ministry because of the overpowering force of sexual attraction for other women. I'm sure they counselled these women, never remotely thinking that they would be caught up in the powerful trap of lust.
Anyway, I am not saying that you and your g/f will eventually be led into some trap with each other. Keep up the great work. The both of you should be proud of the fact that you have done such a terrific job so far.
Will be praying for both of you.
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NGCapnJack
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quote:
This is extremely important because if you continue dwelling on such thoughts, you will eventually give into overpowering lusts. If you give in just once and say you will never do it again, that is almost impossible.
I find what you said here very interesting, because we did get very mildly sexual (by mildly I mean even less so than oral sex, but I'm sure the details are unimportant... this is about the principles) a few times, and after every time of her feeling good, she ended up becoming very depressed. We quickly realized, through subtle signs, that this is not what God wanted us to do... we felt that He was giving us the message to not get physical. Since then, I would say that we have controlled ourselves as best as we could and in a sense, I guess you could say that we're doing what you called the "almost impossible." Anyway, my point is it's difficult and we're trying to do our best...
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You have opened the floodgates to something you have experienced and you virtually can't turn back.
If you were referring solely to sex, then I see what you mean, but sex is a big no-no.
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You are your girlfriend should do your best not to be in tempting situations where there are just the two of you.
A whole new problem arises with that. We are together against her parent's will and usually behind their back. This is definitely not the situation we want to be in, but we cannot destory our feelings and we cannot change their minds, for they are completely against the idea of dating. If there were another way with good results, I would take it... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:
Don't forget - God is on your side. You can do it by staying close to him.
I feel like I am getting closer. To tell you the truth, this relationship has actually been the reason or energy behind my search for God and a better understanding of Him. I hate the fact that I just added some teen-drama into the BBS, but this problem feels like a large one to me, because the choices I have are all difficult. However, we had a conversation and it all became clear to me.
I said, "Why would God give us these feelings if He wanted us to surpress them?"
And she instantly replied with "To control them."
For some reason, that was a real eye-opener to me.
Thanks for your input and God bless you!
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Arr matey, May the Lord Bless yer soul.
"The LORD is my Shepherd" (Psalm 23).
Posts: 30 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by NGCapnJack: Hello,
We have been much more attracted to each other recently than ever before, and we fantasize about each other and are frequently turned on, but we have vowed not to do anything sexual so all this sexual tension is building up and we cannot release it in any way, shape or form. We can only dream about being allowed to do what we want one day in the future.
Does God actually expect me to not dream about being with the one I love, emotionally, physically and spiritually?
Yes, I believe you have no choice but to give up your fantasies. If any simple thought at all, concerning making out, slips into your mind, just let them sit there. Cast them aside. There will always be strong urgings for each other - don't feed into them by dwelling on them. The devil will tell that this is impossilbe to do, but we serve an all-powerful God who is prepared to answer our every prayer in our hour of most desperate need.
If you don't gain victory over them you will only get frustrated because you can't fulfill these dreams, and end up feeling empty and come crushing to a dead end. This is extremely important because if you continue dwelling on such thoughts, you will eventually give into overpowering lusts. If you give in just once and say you will never do it again, that is almost impossible. You have opened the floodgates to something you have experienced and you virtually can't turn back.
I have been on boards where young Christians have experimented with sex. They know they must stop, but find that they absolutely can't and their lives are miserable with guilt and unmanageable struggles.
It must be terribly difficult for young teenagers to-day to know what the boundaries are because to-day's society is so inundated with all sorts of sexual images every where we turn. Because of this, I'm sure teenagers are dating younger and younger.
Even though I didn't become a born-again Christian until after I was married, I didn't seriously start dating until I was 18 yrs. old. We all hung out in groups before then. You are your girlfriend should do your best not to be in tempting situations where there are just the two of you.
I was on the dating scene for only four years. I'm hoping that others who have dated as Christians can give you tips on how to cope in the Christian-dating scene, especialy for the long haul. Knowing God, I'm sure he has many blessings for your remaining celibate.
Don't forget - God is on your side. You can do it by staying close to him. 
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NGCapnJack
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Hello,
Jesus said that to lust can be as simple as looking at another person's body with desire. Attraction leads to desire. However, the love which is important in a marriage is a mixture of compassion and attraction. Without attraction, it's just friendship, and without compassion it's just a fling, a crush... a desire. Married couples should definitely love each other, and they will indeed desire each other, or else there marriage will quickly become dull, and lose its passion. Can one "lust" for their wife, without sinning? Can one love someone with all their heart, yet desire them with all their body? It seems only logical to me that if God wanted man and woman joined, He wanted us to have these feelings.
The reason I raise this question is this: I'm 16-years-old and I have a 15-year-old girlfriend. We've been together, for nearly a year. We had faced many hardships, but recently we have come much closer to God and we try to make our decisions based on what would be pleasing to Him. We are both virgins and have taken a vow of chastity until marriage. This is definitely a difficult task, considering that's a long time from now and we cannot ensure our marriage. However, I am certain that we definitely have a lot of compassion and a lot of passion, and we are determined to stay together through thick and thin. If God wills it, it will be so, but it won't be for a very long time and this is getting quite difficult. We have been much more attracted to each other recently than ever before, and we fantasize about each other and are frequently turned on, but we have vowed not to do anything sexual so all this sexual tension is building up and we cannot release it in any way, shape or form. We can only dream about being allowed to do what we want one day in the future.
I don't feel that I am sinning, because I am controlling my body and doing everything in my power to stay true to God, yet at the same time, our feelings are driving us crazy. Our love for God keeps us from being sexual and doing things to each other, but our attraction has been driving us so crazy recently that it's beginning to be consuming, and that is definitely a problem! As the expression goes, we're in quite a pickle. By doing our best not to sin, are we essentially sinning? Is there any way to stay away from sin? Does God actually expect me to not dream about being with the one I love, emotionally, physically and spiritually?
We won't do anything, but if we do stay together, we have seven years of waiting and deep-rooted desire for each other. Help?
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Arr matey, May the Lord Bless yer soul.
"The LORD is my Shepherd" (Psalm 23).
Posts: 30 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2005
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