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Topic: Question for those who claim Speaking in tongues today
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BORN AGAIN
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Teenschoice, sorry, but this answer is going to be long. I am appending my Topic about tongues, in case you haven't read it before.
I currently believe the following about tongues.
In the KJV, the phrase, “unknown tongue” appears, but the word unknown is in italics, which means that it did not exist in the original Greek manuscript but was added by the translators of the English KJV.
So just by removing the italicized word unknown from the KJV text, a more accurate understanding of what Paul intended can possibly be discovered. So let me delete this word unknown from the KJV text below:
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue speaks, not unto men, but unto God; for no man understands; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
And that is also what happened at Pentecost: the Galileans spoke, NOT unto men, but unto GOD, since they were magnifying God:
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:6
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because each of them heard {the Galileans} speak in his own language.
Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongue the wonderful works of God.
This word tongue is always the Greek word glossa, which means the physical tongue, and by extension also a language, just as English has the phrase, “his spoke in his native tongue.”
Acts 2:6
Now when it was noised abroad, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they heard them {the Galileans} speak in his own language.
This word language is the Greek word dialektos, from which English gets the word dialect, which, like tongue or glossa refers to a normal, earthly language:
Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongue the wonderful works of God.
When the tongue of a Christian is loosened by the Holy Spirit in this way, the Holy Spirit apparently always magnifies God, as Paul also said:
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue {Greek, glossa} speaks, not to men, but to God; for no man understands; howbeit he speaks mysteries in the spirit.
The Holy Spirit possesses a number of talents, and as Paul says, some Christians receive the gift enabling them to be apostles, other prophets, and so on, as is written in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30:
1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all apostles? {The answer is, Not all are apostles} Are all prophets? {The answer is, Not all are prophets} Are all teachers? {No, not all} Are all workers of miracles? {No}
1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? {No} Do all speak with tongues {Greek, glossa}? {The answer is, No, not all speak in tongues} Do all interpret {Greek, diermeneuo}? {No, not all interpret}
So this establishes firmly that not all Christians will be able to speak with tongues or will be able to interpret, because it is a talent or gift of the Holy Spirit, given to Christians by the Holy Spirit, and is not generated by the flesh.
Therefore, it should never be asserted that one must speak in tongues as a sign that one has received the Holy Spirit, because speaking in tongues is just one of the gifts of the Spirit.
Another gift of the Spirit was interpreting or translating, as Paul describes below:
1 Corinthians 14:9
So likewise you, unless you utter words which can be easily understood, how shall it be known what is being spoken? For you shall speak into the air.
14:13
Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue {Greek, glossa} pray that he may interpret.
This word interpret is the common Greek word diermeneuo, which means to translate. So for instance, in Acts 9:36, the writer takes time to translate the name Tabitha into Dorcas for us:
Acts 9:36
Now there as at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha (who by interpretation {Greek, diermeneuo} is called Dorcas ) ...
In the beginning years of my Christianity, I was often told that I should be speaking in tongues as the evidence that I have received the Holy Spirit, and a number of times I was invited into a side room where I was told to sit in a chair, while some “prayer warriors” laid their hands on my head and often said to me, “Now speak whatever comes up, even if it’s only a syllable at first.”
But I knew that when the Holy Spirit came upon the Galileans, the Galileans immediately spoke a complete glossa or language. But according to these fellows, it would come one syllable at a time at first.
But I did not dare to speak out even one syllable to them, because I could not tell whether it was coming from my own flesh or from the Holy Spirit. So I never said anything.
Now, since miraculously speaking in a foreign language was one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for some Christians, as established above, there are thus some Christians out there who had the genuine experience of miraculously magnifying God in a foreign earthly language which they had never learned. And with that miraculous foreign language, they magnified God.
Erroneously thinking that everyone should speak with a tongue or glossa when the Spirit came upon them at the time of believing, these Christians then tried to reproduce their own experience as best they could, while at the same time telling new babes in Christ that they also must speak in this miraculous language or glossa in order to know that the Holy Spirit has come upon them.
They then tried to reproduce that wonderful language experience themselves, but this time with the help of the flesh, and since the flesh knows nothing about spiritual things, these Christians had to pull these syllables out of their own flesh, starting with the first syllables that seemed to come up: Bah bah, mahaha, alakaha karoshin, Bah bah, mahaha, bah bah ... and more of the same.
One linguistics expert from UCLA analyzed the so-called “tongue-speaking” of these Christians, and the linguist expert noticed that all the syllables spoken by these “tongue-speaking” Christians were resident in the native language of the Christian speaker.
That is, the “tongue” or “language” of a Chinese “tongue-speaker” only contained Chinese syllables, and the “tongue” of the Russian “tongue-speaker” only contained Russian syllables, and so on, with every tongue speaker on earth using only their native language’s syllables.
That is an important discovery because if these “tongue-speaking” Christians were all speaking a “heavenly language” which was generated by the Holy Spirit, then every believer would be using syllables which were not resident in their native languages.
That is, they would all be speaking with the syllables of heaven, the language of angels, so to speak. For how many languages are spoken in heaven? Only one, right?
In addition, it is important to note that most of these “tongues” or so-called “prayer languages” use a string of syllables which often repeat themselves, such as: Bah bah, maha, alaha karoshin, bah bah, mahaha, bah bah karoshin, or whatever. In this string, the syllables “bah bah” repeat themselves three times.
But if someone then stands up and interprets or translates what had just been said by the “tongue-speaking” Christian, then the interpretation or translation does not repeat any syllables at all and every word of the translation is different, eventhough the “string of syllables” contained many repetitions of the same syllable, as for instance in, Bah bah, maha, alakaha karoshin, Bah bah, maha, bah bah.
Since in language translation Bah is Bah now and remains Bah no matter where it is located in the sentence, the interpretation of Bah bah should also have repeated the translation of bah bah three times, and it never does, and that is against the law of translation.
I think however that this gift of miraculously magnifying God in a foreign language is still being used by God, but occurs to perform a specific task for the Lord.
For instance, the Lord could use it in the following scenario. I am a Christian tourist or missionary in Russia, and I am on a train, and suddenly the Spirit comes on me and I magnify God in Russian, and the Russians on the train hear it.
When the Russians try to speak to me in Russian, they discover that I do not speak Russian at all, and they are amazed and they perceive that I spoke in a glossa or language which I don’t normally speak and they see it was a miracle and they praise God as a result.
Acts 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled ...
And a miraculous translation or diermeneuo would occur if a Russian Christian now miraculously translated back to me in English what I had said in Russian, when this Russian Christian normally does not speak English. Miracle No. 2 has occurred, and the Russians on board the train glorify God and believe.
It would probably also be instructive to add what happened when the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles assembled at Cornelius’s house, when the Hebrews Peter and some of the other Hebrew disciples were preaching Jesus to the people assembled at Cornelius’s house:
Acts 10:44
And while Peter yet spoke these words {concerning Jesus to them}, the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word.
10:45
And they of the circumcision who were believers {meaning, the Hebrew Peter and the Hebrew disciples who had come with Peter} were astonished, as many as had come with Peter, because on the Gentiles was also poured out the gift of Holy Spirit.
10:46
For they {Peter and his Jewish friends} heard them speak with tongues {Greek, glossa} and magnify God.
This miracle was performed by the Lord, not only for the Gentiles, but even more so for the Hebrew Peter and for the Hebrew disciples with Peter.
Peter still needed to be astonished into understanding that in the kingdom of God, the worshippers would no longer be only national Israelites , but would now include:
Acts 10:35
But in every nation he or she who fears Him, and works righteousness, is accepted by Him.
Always a purpose, always a work to be done by the Lord.
But let me see now if all this fits with 1 Corinthians 14:13ff:
14:13
Therefore let he who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14:14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the understanding also.
14:16
For else, when you shall bless with the spirit, how shall he who occupies the room of the unlearned say Amen at your giving of thanks, seeing he does not understand what you are saying.
14:17
For you truly give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
14:18
I thank my God that I speak with tongues {Greek, glossa} more than you all.
14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might teach others also, than ten thousands words in a tongue {Greek, glossa}.
14:21
For in the law it is written, I will speak with other tongues and other lips to this people; and yet for all that they will not hear me.
What was again the purpose of this speaking with other tongues? It was that the many would believe that Yeshua was the Son of God and that the kingdom of God was at hand. But for all that, they would hear the Lord me.
Lastly, it is not uncommon for a “tongue-speaking” pastor or teacher to say to his congregation, “Let’s now all lift our voices and pray in our heavenly language to the Lord”.
But this directly contradicts what Paul said should be done:
1 Corinthians 14:27:
If any man speaks in a tongue, let it be by two, or at most by three, and that, by course {meaning, one after the other, not at the same time}; and let one interpret {Greek, diermeneuo}.
1 Corinthians 14:28
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; but let him speak to himself and to God.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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I have never been involved in a church that speaks in tongues, but apparently those who believe in it claim that it invites a strong infilling of the Holy Spirit. Some also have a gift for interpreting.
The following link has some excellent thoughts re speaking in tongues, and this is also a quote from that article.
COMPLETE CONTROL
The speaking in tongues symbolizes God's complete control of the believer. Perhaps this is one of the most outstanding reasons why God chose speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost baptism. James gives us more information about the tongue than any writer in the New Testament. This teaching is very revealing about the nature of the tongue. (Read the third chapter of James.) First, the tongue is capable of defiling the whole body. If it is capable of this action, is it incredible to claim that it also is capable of sanctifying the whole body? Second, though it is a small member, it has never been tamed of mankind. It is the most unruly member of the body. If this be true about the tongue, would it not be necessary that it be tamed before the whole body could be consecrated to God? James illustrated the importance of the tongue by comparing it to the bit in a horse's mouth which gives the driver complete control over the horse. Also, the helm of a large vessel gives the governor full command of the ship. The comparison is that whoever controls the tongue of a man, controls him.
The tongue takes on great importance when we understand these things. YOU CANNOT TAME IT YOURSELF; ONLY GOD CAN DO THIS. In Matt. 12:29 Jesus tells us that before you can enter a strong man's house and spoil or plunder his goods, you must first bind the strong man. The STRONG MAN OF YOUR HOUSE IS YOUR TONGUE. That is what James declares. You can tame every member of your body but this one. When God tames your tongue, you are under the control of the great God of the heavens, you are in the hands of the Almighty and conquered by Christ, you are endued with a spiritual force from on high and empowered for His servi
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Teenschoice
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Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers (Jews), the secondary uses ( which were necessary so God would not be the author of confusion while the sign was being given ) for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we all can accomplish by regular means. When the sign aspect of tongues is absent, and it is, the secondary uses became expendable.
There is no such sign being given today like we read about in Acts. The churches who claim tongues for today deny it by their actions, they send their missionaries to school to learn the languages like everyone else.
So I want to pose this question for those who believe in a personal prayer language or tongues for self or Bodily edification...What advantage does tongues hold for the individual or the Body that cannot be accomplished both more efficiantly and with less confusion by normal ( unmiraculous) means?
Warrior For Christ, Jeff
Posts: 24 | From: Indiana | Registered: Jan 2005
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