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Author
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Topic: Baptism and the Spirit
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heavenbound01
Advanced Member
Member # 3678
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posted
I also agree with texasgrandma,a person on there death bed cant, but if you are not, and if Jesus can do it then why cant you?? ya know?you are supposed to strive to be like him,and he was indeed baptised by john the baptist. I think that you should if at all possible.
Posts: 30 | Registered: Jul 2004
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StevenL
Advanced Member
Member # 3669
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posted
Isaiah 54
13And all your [spiritual] children shall be disciples [taught by the Lord and obedient to His will], and great shall be the peace and undisturbed composure of your children.(1)
taught by the Lord
Go to the Scriptures and be filled with the Spirit and don't be asking the opinions of people. You'll hear 50 different opinions right here alone. If you are a child of the New Covenant, God Himself will teach you all you need to know. Listen to Him. That way you won't be afraid in the rough storm of doctrines and opinions. Opinions are like noses - everybody has one. God's Voice and Word are Sure. His Sheep hear His Voice and they won't listen to another.
John 10
1I ASSURE you, most solemnly I tell you, he who does not enter by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way (elsewhere, from some other quarter) is a thief and a robber.
2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3The watchman opens the door for this man, and the sheep listen to his voice and he calls his own sheep by name and brings (leads) them out.
4When he has brought his own sheep outside, he walks on before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5They will never [on any account] follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not know the voice of strangers or recognize their call.
I pray the Lord guide you and give you Peace!
Posts: 144 | From: Monroe, Louisiana | Registered: Jul 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I agree with Bearer, I too had a 2nd cousin that was like a baby mentally until she died at the age of 54. I believe she went to Heaven.
God knows when someone is capable of understanding or not.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bearer
Advanced Member
Member # 40
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posted
First, The Bible says in Acts16:30-31 when the Philippian jailer ask Paul what he should do to be saved. Paul replyed Believe in the LORD JESUS and you will be saved. In Romans 10:9-10,13 It says that if you confess with your mouth JESUS is LORD, and believe in your heart that GOD raised HIM from the dead will be be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. For everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. Baptism is not necessary for Salvation. The thief on the cross certainly wasn't baptized yet JESUS said this day you will be with me in paradise. Baptism is your first testimony to the world that you have been changed on the inside.
Now to answer the question about those with special needs. JESUS says that anyone must come to the age of accountablity in order to understand sin and its consequences. If a person never is able to understand this concept then they are considered in the eyes of GOD to be little children and they go to heaven when they die.
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Mary At Bearer Ministries
Posts: 50 | From: Spencer, NC | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kirby
New Member
Member # 3612
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posted
I found what Texasgrandma had to say was quite interesting, sometimes things just can't happen. Take my brother for example, he was born with special needs and can't talk or show any understanding of things around him. He'll never be able to actually "ask Jesus" into his life nor will he ever be able to understand the meaning of baptism. Where does that lead him? I've always wondered this.
Posts: 4 | From: Regina,SK | Registered: Jul 2004
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JohnnyB
Advanced Member
Member # 3574
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posted
Eminem there is much to be said about this. I would suggest you first read 1 Corinthains and then decide for yourself what you believe about spiritual gifts.
After which you can look at other peoples opinions and comments concerning such. Never read scripture in light of a man's words, but a man's words in light of scripture.
I believe Acts 2 is the proper use of tongues while the Corinthians were obviously misusing tongues, or he would not have written the apologetic found in Corinthians. One of the keys to understand this section of Corinthians and many other sections of Paul's writings is to understand how Paul presents an argument and uses apologetics. Paul usually takes the position of giving the person in error the benefit of the doubt (e.g. "What if...") Whenever you see this passage Paul is USUALLY taking the perspective of the person in error and then lays out the persons argument with a conclusion. The conclusion usually tells us why the argument must not be correct, however sometimes it does this indirectly by coming to a greater conclusion. Many, many people misunderstand this form of Paul's apologetics and when he takes the theoretical position of "what if...." create many false doctrines from it. I believe that Paul's statement about praying in tongues is one of those issues. I do not believe Paul is exhorting people to pray in tongues just as in Eph. 5:18 Paul is not saying it's okay to drink just as long as you don't get drunk. In Eph 5:18 Paul is not trying to create a rule for drinking or not drinking - the focus is on Spirit control and Paul is using drunkenness (a state where you no longer have control over yourself) as an example of how we should be filled with the spirit. Likewise when Paul says "let him speak to himself, and to God." Paul is not setting a rule for tongues. Paul has addressed that the Corinthians were misusing the gift which was creating confusion. Paul states that if you can't clear up the confusion (by proper use of the gift and an interpreter) then just be quite. Paul does not say "speak to yourself in tongues" Paul says "speak to yourself" when speaking in tongues it is something that the speaker cannot understand, so for a speaker to speak to himself in tongues makes no sense and furthers the confusion of the individual. Rather I believe Paul is saying that if the man is so eager to speak in tongues, but cannot - due to the fact that he does not poses the gift (if he did, it would be spoken publicly with an interpreter) so the man is to simply talk to God.
The purpose of tongues is not to edify yourself. Note that all the gifts are not for lifting ourselves up but for serving other people. When Paul makes the statement that the "tongues" is only edifying the speaker, it is because they were misusing it and that was the only outcome - not that Paul was condoning it or stating it's purpose. So if you speak to yourself in tongues or to God in tongues the gift is not serving it's purpose. Secondly - it was an actual language as noted earlier - so what is the use of speaking in Spanish to God when you could just as easily speak in English?
I don't think I should have to point out or agrue further that Paul states that not all people speak in tongues.
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It is dangerous for God to give high truth to highly educated people. There is a danger that in the furtherance of that truth it becomes mixed with an alloy of human wisdom. It pleased God on that first Christmas morning to give high truth to humble men, even shepherds in the fields.
Posts: 43 | From: Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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EminemShady2004
Community Member
Member # 3562
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posted
She uses Mark 16:17 to defend this
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Jesus saves, that is why he is goalie.
Posts: 15 | From: Andover, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 2004
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EminemShady2004
Community Member
Member # 3562
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posted
Okay but there is these verses in Mark that says that believers have signs and my friend believes that it means speaking in tongues and she believes that if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved and you don't have the Holy Spirit, this scares me since I don't know anything about tongues or whatever it is....can someone explain this?
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Jesus saves, that is why he is goalie.
Posts: 15 | From: Andover, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I believe that the moment you ask Jesus in your heart, you are saved. Water Baptism is in obedience to the Lord but there times it just can't happen. People who are saved on their death bed for instance.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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JohnnyB
Advanced Member
Member # 3574
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posted
The problem occures with the condition of Salvation. We are told to do many things but not all of those things and many of those things do not hinge on our Salvation. The problem arose, I believe, from the perspective that perhaps Salvation is dependant upon Baptism. What happens to a man if he get's saved in a dessert no where near a body of water and dies out there? What happens if a man is saved on his death bed and is unable to be baptized by water?
This from my opinion is why there was a conflict.
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It is dangerous for God to give high truth to highly educated people. There is a danger that in the furtherance of that truth it becomes mixed with an alloy of human wisdom. It pleased God on that first Christmas morning to give high truth to humble men, even shepherds in the fields.
Posts: 43 | From: Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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JohnnyB
Advanced Member
Member # 3574
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posted
People adopt the view of Baptism in order to receive salvation and the Holy Spirit from only about three chapters in the Book of Acts. These Chapters can make things very difficult for believers because they are confusing and use the word Baptism sometimes differently than other books do.
There are two types of Baptism. Spiritual Baptism by the blood of Jesus which happens the moment you get saved and Water Baptism which is an outward symbol and profession of the inner Baptism.
The verse which many are confused of is Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Peter was not saying you need to be Baptized (by water) to receive salvation but that you must be Baptized in the name of Jesus, in other words accepting the atonement he provided. For example when it says "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me." or "For where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them." It's not that Christ is saying "say my name" as if it's the magic word such as "Alakazam" or something of the like. Rather these passages mean that you are accepting and acting to the honor and glory of Jesus Christ and the works he has performed and fulfilled.
So when Peter says "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" He is not talking about the water Baptism but the Spiritual Baptism through the blood of Jesus.
There is another account in Acts that causes some confusion: Act 8:14-17 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." First of all this was a special exception because it is the only time that we are told that someone was Baptized in the name of Jesus and did not receive the Holy Spirit at that moment but needed the "laying of hands" from disciples.
Secondly it is unclear what it means that they did not receive the Holy Spirit, this obviously did not mean that they were unsaved. Why did this event take place? Why didn't they instantly receive the Holy Spirit? I believe this is because it is the first time a mass group of Gentiles were saved, it was a sign of Christ passing on the covenant made with Israel to the inclusion of the Gentiles (thus the Jews were laying their hands upon them to symbolize the act of the Jews bringing in the Gentiles to the family. Whether the Jews knew this or not I don't know). The Jews were very skeptical at first of Gentiles being able to receive salvation this becomes obvious as you read through the book of Acts. This is also apparent from the fact that the Church in Jerusalem sent Peter and John to verify that the Samaritans had indeed received Christ.
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It is dangerous for God to give high truth to highly educated people. There is a danger that in the furtherance of that truth it becomes mixed with an alloy of human wisdom. It pleased God on that first Christmas morning to give high truth to humble men, even shepherds in the fields.
Posts: 43 | From: Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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EminemShady2004
Community Member
Member # 3562
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posted
OK I know this one person online and she's a Christian and she says that you need to be baptised and receive the Holy Spirit other wise you will go to hell. I don't believe this, I believe that the only things necessary for salvation are to ask Jesus into your life and repent of sin and trust Christ and obey Him....what do you guys think?
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Jesus saves, that is why he is goalie.
Posts: 15 | From: Andover, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 2004
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