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Topic: Catholic question
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
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Caretaker,
It is clear to me that Catholics do not believe that they can work their way to heaven on their own merits, especially not apart from JESUS CHRIST. I believe this statement in the Canon is illustrating that just faith in CHRIST without any follow through in your life in following Him is not sufficient in achieving salvation.
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Caretaker
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http://www.justforcatholics.org/a85.htm
Historically, Protestants use the slogan 'faith alone' to express the Gospel so clearly explained by the apostle Paul, "that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28; 4:5-8; Galatians 2:16; 3:10-13, 5:2-4). An ungodly person is not freed from guilt by the deeds of the law, that is, by loving God and his neighbor (because no one keeps the law perfectly).
To become right with God, he must believe in Another, in Christ Jesus. God freely justifies the person who does not rely on his works, but who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. The believer is legally acquitted and treated as righteous - all because of Christ.
In Romans and Galatians, the apostle Paul has this question in mind: How can a guilty sinner be justified by God? Essentially Paul answers that a sinner is justified by faith in Christ, and not by the merit of his works. That is what we mean by 'sola fide.'
In his letter, James deals with a different question altogether. There is a man who claims to have faith and who assents to the cardinal doctrines of the Gospel, including the first, namely, the unity of God. Yet this person is devoid of good works and is full of hypocrisy, so much so, that he insults a poor beggar with pious words without giving him anything. So, says James, can this sort of faith save him? "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have no works? Can faith save him?"
James is not asking whether a person is saved by faith plus the merit of his good works. He is asking about the kind of faith that saves. He mentions two types, the real and the counterfeit. Works can distinguish the two from each other: "Show me your faith without your works; and I will show you my faith by my works." Real faith is living, manifesting itself in good works. Counterfeit faith is dead, mere assent to doctrine, devoid of works.
James asks, "Can faith save him?" The answer is simply this, "If it is real faith, manifest in good works, yes. But if it is a counterfeit 'faith', no, it cannot save him."
No contradiction exists between Paul and James. The apostle Paul insists that it is the man "that worketh not, but believeth" that is justified by God. But that is not all. Paul also describes the character of true faith - "faith which worketh by love."
It is also important to note that Paul and James use the word 'justification' in different senses. In the Bible the word 'justification' is often used in the legal sense. 'To justify' denotes a judge declaring a person righteous; it is the opposite of 'to condemn' which means to declare guilty (Deuteronomy 25:1; Job 13:18; Isaiah 50:7-8; Matthew 12:37; Luke 18:14; etc.). Paul often uses the word 'justification' in this legal sense.
'To justify' is also used in a declarative sense. A person who tries to show himself that he is in the right is said to be trying to justify himself (see Job 32:2; Luke 10:28,29; 16:14,15). James has this aspect of justification in mind. We have seen that his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual.
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CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
From the Council of Trent, and Biblical refutation:
In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently. Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.
1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
Thanks for the post Caretaker. I do not own a copy of the Catholic Code of Canon Law and have very little time to address all of your concerns but I will try to in due time.
I am sure they are referring to James 2:14-26. Verse 24 is the only one in scripture that mentions "faith alone" ... "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
[James 2:14-26] ... what good is faith w/o works?
Faith and Works
14 (25) What use is it, (26) my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 (27) If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "(28) Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so (29) faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 (30) But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your (31) faith without the works, and I will (32) show you my faith (33) by my works."
19 You believe that [1] (34) God is one. (35) You do well; (36) the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize, (37) you foolish fellow, that (38) faith without works is useless?
21 (39) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that (40) faith was working with his works, and as a result of the (41) works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "(42) AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called (43) the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not (44) Rahab the harlot also justified by works (45) when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also (46) faith without works is dead.
I don't think scripture would contradict itself like this ... clearly there is more to justification than just faith, or works, or grace ... it is a combination of the three.
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Caretaker
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From the Council of Trent, and Biblical refutation:
In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently. Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.
1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).
2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
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"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
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"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
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"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
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Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
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Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).
· Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Originally posted by Praise Adonai:
I am a fairly new Christian, having accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior 8/4/2002. As a baby I was christened as a Catholic, since my father was Catholic.
Your baptism/confirmation as a Catholic would indeed have made you a Christian at that time; however, that alone does not assure your salvation, only a lifelong commitment to CHRIST can do that.
I was never a practising Catholic. My father and mother split up when I was 7 so I did not attend Catholic Church regularly. When I did go, I never felt like I fit in. I hadnt completed all of the Catholic rituals and I didnt know all of the words to the say and respond sermons the priests gave.
Sounds like you never gave the faith much of a chance, especially if you rarely attended. How can you expect to become close to JESUS if you do not visit him regularly??? What do you mean by rituals??? The Church should have missles (books) in the pews (seats) that outline the order of the mass including all prayers, responses and scripture readings, it is all in there, all you need to do is open her up and follow along.
I feel that being brainwashed a Catholic made it take longer for me to discover Jesus and develop a relationship with him.
Brainwashed? It does not sound like you were instructed in the faith much at all, how can minimal instruction equate to brainwashing? A person relationship with JESUS CHRIST is very possible in the Catholic Church.
My question is this. The way Catholics pray to the virgin Mary, the saints and to their priests, wouldnt this be viewed as idol worship in the Lords eyes??
The informed Catholic understands that the saints (those holy individuals who died before us in the grace of JESUS CHRIST) are now in heaven and are more alive than we are. The body of CHRIST is made up of Christians here on earth and in heaven. When a Catholic prays to a saint, he is merely asking that saint to pray for him to JESUS CHRIST [pray = to ask]. It is no different than when any Christian asks another holy Christian to pray on their behalf. There is no better guarantee for holiness than someone who is already in heaven, for nothing unclean will enter heaven. Neither situation takes away from the one true mediator, JESUS CHRIST.
Catholics base salvation soley on religion and not the relationship with Christ. Am I wrong to feel this way?? [/QB]
No maybe not wrong because you are entitled to your opinion but nonetheless you are misinformed. JESUS CHRIST is the source and summit of the Catholic Christian life and faith, but of course it is up to the individual if he chooses to pick up the cross and follow CHRIST, the Church cannot force him. We were given freewill by GOD so that we could choose to accept or reject Him.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Caretaker:
I am concerned for Catholics (and others) whose life is overrun by sin and yet feel that it would be fine at the end.
The Catholic Church does not teach what you state ... but rather quite the opposite, it teaches that any soul that dies in the state of mortal sin will not attain eternal life. That is why frequent confession and repentance is so important throughout your life so that you can remain in a state of grace.
The Bible warns them that their faith is dead and useless to save them from Hell. On the other hand, I'm also concerned about those devout Catholics who are afraid of God's judgment, and do their best to merit his forgiveness and grace. They claim to believe in Jesus, but they really don't because they are relying on their own goodness and righteousness.
[... relying on their own goodness and righteousness] What do you mean by this, works? Catholics believe they are saved through grace of our Lord and Redeemer JESUS CHRIST.
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I too feel so sad about people who think because they were baptized as a child they are saved. There is a BBS for computer game that I go to every day. A discussion came up about using God's name in vain. This 13 year old girl bragged that she used God's name in vain 12 or more times a day and she felt she was still a "good" Catholic. I asked her if the Catholics believed in the 10 commandments and she said yes.
Too me, she might be a good "Catholic" but she was not a Christian. A true Christian would not use God's name in vain much less brag about it.
I know something about Catholic teaching and I know that baptism is merely the necessary first step, an initiation into GOD's family if you will, in a lifelong commitment to JESUS CHRIST that may lead to one's salvation.
This poor girl is sadly misinformed, whether she has been provided a bad example at home by parents who do not good to church or just poorly instructed in the faith in general. She does not know her Catholic faith. Nowadays learning the faith is very easy thing to do, she can purchase a copy of the Catechism (Teachings) of the Catholic Church [a concise explanation of the Catholic faith] for $8 in the local bookstore or view it for free online. She can compare its teachings with scripture to insure there is agreement.
TEXASGRANDMA,
You should witness to this young lady and inform her of her errant ways and mention the Catechism. The Church would certainly not call her a "good" Catholic, based on what you have said she is not a Catholic at all. What the Church teaches and what an apathetic Catholic believes may be too very different things.
If she knew the commandments she would know that thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain. She is merely one of many Christians, from any denomination, who call themselves Christians but do not walk the talk. Unfortunate indeed, hopefully you can point her towards the light.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I remember the week before Mother Treasea died, she was asked if Princes Diana was in Heaven. Mother Treasa said only if Princes DIana had accepted Jesus as her Savior. Mother Treasea knew that you had to accept Jesus as Savior to be saved.
I too feel so sad about people who think because they were baptized as a child they are saved. There is a BBS for computer game that I go to every day. A discussion came up about using God's name in vain. This 13 year old girl bragged that she used God's name in vain 12 or more times a day and she felt she was still a "good" Catholic. I asked her if the Catholics believed in the 10 commandments and she said yes.
Too me, she might be a good "Catholic" but she was not a Christian. A true Christian would not use God's name in vain much less brag about it.
When we faced God it will not be as important what Church we went to as it will be if we have asked the Lord JEsus to come into our Hearts and to save our souls. We need to pray for those who think they are saved but are not. This are the hardest to reach because they think of themselves as "good" people. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Caretaker
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This is an excellent site which addresses a multitude of questions, in regards to Roman Catholicism, from a Biblical standard.
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http://www.justforcatholics.org/
I am concerned for Catholics (and others) whose life is overrun by sin and yet feel that it would be fine at the end. The Bible warns them that their faith is dead and useless to save them from Hell. On the other hand, I'm also concerned about those devout Catholics who are afraid of God's judgment, and do their best to merit his forgiveness and grace. They claim to believe in Jesus, but they really don't because they are relying on their own goodness and righteousness.
I want to share with you the same Good News I heard in my youth because it is the message of the Bible. If you want to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus and stop trusting in yourself. Stop clinging to your religion and with empty hands receive the free gift of salvation. And then, for the rest of your life, do good works out of gratitude to our gracious and loving Father.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Praise Adonai
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I am a fairly new Christian, having accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior 8/4/2002. As a baby I was christened as a Catholic, since my father was Catholic. I was never a practising Catholic. My father and mother split up when I was 7 so I did not attend Catholic Church regularly. When I did go, I never felt like I fit in. I hadnt completed all of the Catholic rituals and I didnt know all of the words to the say and respond sermons the priests gave. I feel that being brainwashed a Catholic made it take longer for me to discover Jesus and develop a relationship with him. My question is this. The way Catholics pray to the virgin Mary, the saints and to their priests, wouldnt this be viewed as idol worship in the Lords eyes?? Catholics base salvation soley on religion and not the relationship with Christ. Am I wrong to feel this way??
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I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me.
Phil. 4:13
Posts: 11 | From: Texas, USA | Registered: May 2003
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