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Author
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Topic: Did God create evil?
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Yes we are born on the wrong one!
Thats why Jesus stepped down from Heaven, and was born a man, hung on a cross, bearing all our sins, died and rose again, so we could have a choice.
There is only one way to Heaven, and eternity is a long tine to be wrong. ![[fie]](graemlins/fie.gif) ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life....please choose Him!
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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CloudHands
Community Member
Member # 1177
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posted
1:
Why even make it possible to perish? Have you ever thought about the fact that this is supposed to be eternal damnation - there is no way back??
Imagine having to listen to the screams for all eternity!
2: "We all have a choice."
No, we did not have a choice! Not really, because we are "born in sin", despite the fact that we never did anything before we were born, so this couldn't possibly be our fault. So don't give me that...
3: I understand the robot-comparison, but this is the Creator of the universe we're talking about. Wouldn't it be possible for Him to think of a better way?
Secondly there is no choice: It's the Jesus way or the hell way! That's not a choice. That's making the robots God didn't want from the beginning. And the ones who doesn't wish to become Holy Ghost-controlled/inspired robots, get a one-way to hell!
Want to know what I think? I think you will all be soooo surprised, when you reach Heaven or whichever form the hereafter takes! Then you will see alot of people that you would never have dreamed of seeing there.
A plea: Please stop feeling so blessed and chosen and holy or even saved though unworthy!
We're are all heading towards the same end though along many different paths.
Some might even get there faster than others, because there are always those who stray off...(!)
Don't you see? God is genious. The way the body works is a perfect example of this.
Why then would (if you and your "siblings" are right) He make it so unattractive and thereby difficult to chose the right way, which we all have to, because we are born on the wrong one?
... Karina.
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"Did God really say..."
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
The best answer is yes and no. Evil by definition is that which is contrary to God's nature or character. These are revealed to us in His law, thus that which does not conform to God's moral laws is evil.
One can say, yes, because evil is not possible unless God makes it possible through the creation of a moral being. Evil, though, is not a direct creation of God. God created beings that could choose to reflect His nature and character or not. Evil is the description of that character and nature which is other than God. It has no existence until someone chooses to display it in his life.
Though it would probably be incorrect to say that Satan created evil, he is the first known being to choose to display evil in his life. It would perhaps be better to say he fathered evil (James 1:13-15).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create WAR: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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J23
Advanced Member
Member # 634
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posted
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7
Posts: 199 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2002
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Salti
unregistered
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posted
J23, I disagree with your number code. I suppose if we came up with such a code in every language we could find all sorts of evils.
You can add Grace and Christ by your logic and get 666 too ![[eek]](eek.gif)
Im not saying I disagree that some things are bad, I just disagree with your method of deciding what is and isnt evil.
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Matthew Henry Commentary
on Proverbs 16
That God is the first cause. He is the former of all things and all persons, the fountain of being; he gave every creature the being it has and appointed it its place.
Even the wicked are his creatures, though they are rebels; he gave them those powers with which they fight against him, which aggravates their wickedness, that they will not let him that made them rule them, and therefore, though he made them, he will not save them.
2. That God is the last end. All is of him and from him, and therefore all is to him and for him. He made all according to his will and for his praise; he designed to serve his own purposes by all his creatures, and he will not fail of his designs; all are his servants. The wicked he is not glorified by, but he will be glorified upon. He makes no man wicked, but he made those who he foresaw would be wicked: yet he made them (Gen. 6:6), because he knew how to get himself honour upon them. See Rom. 9:22.
Or (as some understand it) he made the wicked to be employed by him as the instruments of his wrath in the day of evil, when he brings judgments on the world.
He makes some use even of wicked men, as of other things, to be his sword, his hand (Ps. 17:13, 14), flagellum Dei—the scourge of God. The king of Babylon is called his servant.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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J23
Advanced Member
Member # 634
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posted
"JEHOVAH has created all things for himself: yea, even the wicked, for the day of EVIL." - Proverbs 16:4
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"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom: and the knowledge of the Holy is Understanding." - Proverbs 9:10
"... Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute Judgement and Justice in the Earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord lives, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; but, The Lord lives, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the North country, and from all countries where I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land ..." - Jeremiah 23 [Closeby : Rapture]
"And you, Solomon my son, know you the God of your father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands all the imaginations of the thoughts: if you seek him, he will be found of you; but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever." - King David, Chronicles 28:9
THE 7 DAY THEORY 2
Posts: 199 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2002
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knowHim
Admin
Member # 8
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posted
Below is a good post I read on this subject:
Did God create Evil ?
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1 John 1:5 (English-NIV)
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
The scripture you have just read shows us that there is no darkness in God. If this is so, then how come there is darkness and evil. If God is the Most High, then surely he must be responsible for what exists or what he allows.
John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
At this stage there is no mention of evil. Just God and his Word. Jesus is the Word so there was a time when only the Father and Son existed. Evil did not exist yet. Sin first appeared in one of God's created beings, as the following scripture shows.
Ezekiel 28:14-17 (English-NIV)
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
So the annointed Guardian Cherub sinned and he was cast down to the earth. Who was the annointed cherub ? The following 2 scriptures will reveal his identity.
Revelation 12:7-9 (English-NIV)
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
John 8:44 (English-NIV)
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jesus told us that the Devil who is Satan is the Father of Lies and a murderer from the beginning.
So sin started in Satan and he spread his lies and deception and corrupted one third of the Angels. He also deceived man in the beginning which meant that he sowed sin into all of humanity and brought death to us all. We can see in Genesis 3 (English-NIV) that the serpent deceived mankind in the beginning and in Revelation 12:9 we see that Satan is that ancient serpent that lead the whole world astray.
The reason that Jesus came to earth was to redeem man back to God and save us from death that sin gave birth in us because of our disobedience in God. This disobedience originated in the Devil's lies.
1 John 3:8 (English-NIV)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
This scripture shows us that sin is the Devils work.
The next scripture shows us that it is the Devil and not God who has sown evil.
Matthew 13:24-30 (English-NIV)
24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 "The owner's servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28 "`An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, `Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29 "`No,' he answered, `because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
The next scripture is the interpretation of the Parable you have just read.
Matthew 13:36-43 (English-NIV)
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
As we can see it is the Devil who sowed evil and all evil will be collected and burned.
The next scripture shows us that God will create a new Heaven and Earth where sin has never dwelt.
Revelation 21:1-7 (English-NIV)
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
So to sum up what has been covered, we have found the following points from the scriptures we have read so far.
God is light and there is no darkness in him.
The Devil sinned in the beginning and thus corrupted part of Gods creation including mankind.
All evil will eventually be purged from Gods creation and thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Only the righteous will remain.
God will create a new creation where sin has never dwelt.
Many people however believe that God is actually ultimately responsible for sin, even though God cannot sin himself. I have listed some of the reasons why people believe this.
God is in control of everything.
God has the final say on what is allowed and that must include sin.
How could Satan sin if God didn't allow for sin in his creation.
How can sin originate from a creature who was created by a perfect God.
There must be a flaw in God or his creation if one of his creatures sinned. After all God created Satan who was perfect in the beginning. But God must have given Satan the ability to sin, otherwise Satan would be perfect even to this day.
I have heard these points many times from many people and I think it is time to seriously look at these points as they are definately valid questions. It is time to bring light and understanding to any accusations that say that God is evil or that he created sin and evil.
I even heard an argument once that said that God has known about sin for all eternity and to put this thought to rest he created creatures to play out evil so he could eventually get rid of it once and for all by bringing it into creation through Satan and watching it corrupt part of his creation in order to gather all the evil and throw it into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed once and for all.
This argument suggests that God is just playing with us to satisfy his all knowing knowledge.
If God is all knowing then doesn't it seem strange that God would create Satan perfect in the beginning and enjoying an intimate relationship with him, but knowing that at some stage in his plan that Satan would rebel and bring corruption. Some have even suggested that God did this in order to show creation that he is merciful. They say that in order to see his mercy there needs to be sin, so we can be forgiven. How can you see God's mercy if everything is perfect. This is true, but it seems a very unmerciful thing for God to create beings to rebel against him and worst still it actually seems like a wicked thing to do because it really makes a farce of the free will that these creatures had. This argument taken to its fullest extent claims that God has created beings for destruction and others for eternal life. If this is so, then free will is not really free but an already ordained story that is just playing out. In other words this theory really suggests that free will doesn't exist and God has already ordained those who will be saved and those who he created for destruction.
If you believe this, then I want you to be honest with yourself and think about the following scenario.
Imagine if you served God all your life, but you rebelled on the last day of your life and then died in your sins only to be found seperated from God and all his goodness. How would you feel if that was ordained for you and you had no real free will in the matter. You just happened to be the unlucky creature who inherited that sad story. Could you or would you say that God is righteous ? Would judgement day actually have any meaning ? It may be easy for you to say that God is righteous if you were a person who was ordained to choose him and thus experience an eternal life of bliss with him when you died. But in all consideration it seems that a holy and perfect God wouldn't do such things as they seem to remind us of manipulation and injustice don't they.
So did God create evil ? Did he ordain those who were to be saved and those who are to be damned ? Does he torture forever those who were ordained not to choose him ? Do we really have free will ?
I now want you to realise something very important, something that will change your view about darkness and evil, something that will show that God is truly righteous and that he is just and that we do truly possess free will.
Evil is not actaully a created thing. God did not create evil. Evil is simply the lack of good.
Darkness is not a created thing. Darkness is the lack of light. You cannot shine darkness into light and overcome it. Darkness does not shine into your lit up house at night when you open the blinds.
Foolishness is not a created thing it is the lack of wisdom.
Lies are the lack of truth.
Chaos is the lack of order. Chaos only exists where order is not.
Therefore when God said Let there be light. He was dispelling the darkness. Yes darkness exists but only where light is not.
So did God create evil. Well God didn't say let there be Darkness, he just gave his created beings the ability to choose him or not and to cater for those who choose not God, there must be an alternative to God who is light and that is his opposite called darkness which is the lack of light. When you reject God then God removes his righteous presence from you and that of course leaves evil. How can there be any good that doesn't come from God ?
James 1:17 (English-NIV)
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
All good things originate in him, but man perverts good. Man is evil if he is not in unity with God who is good. God allowed for evil because he gave us free will. If we couldn't rebel from God, then we wouldn't have choice, which means that we wouldn't have free will and that would mean that we would just be a race of robots, obeying every command.
Now how did evil originate in Satan ? The following scripture shows us that Satan became proud of himself.Ezekiel 28:17 (English-NIV) Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
In other words he looked to himself and not God. God was not his everything anymore. This shows us that Satan chose to think of himself, instead of God, Satan looked inward at himself instead of outward to God. Satan exercised his free will and chose to to make God no longer supreme in all areas of his life, so he really chose to cut himself of from God and because Satan became seperated from the Eternal Loving God, he could no longer draw his strength and inspiration from God. He couldn't reflect God's light anymore as he was looking at himself.
Satan became Darkness as darkness is the lack of light and God is Light. Satan became evil as evil is the lack of good and all goodness originates in God. Satan became the Father of Lies because truth comes from God. Satan then spread his lies to other beings and all that followed his philosophy suffered the same fate as himself, that was to be eternally seperated from God. This is why Man dies, because God is life and Man is also seperated from God. When Satan looked to himself, he planted a seed. That seed grew in him and consumed his whole being. The seed grew like a tree and one third of the Angels became corrupted by his lies and became like the branches of that tree. In the beginning Mankind listened to the lies of the Devil and chose to disobey God too. We also have become branches on this tree, but most of us are ignorant of this fact. We are born in sin. Human nature grows from this tree. Yet God in his mercy has seen our fate and has provided a way for mankind to be grafted into his tree. John 15:1-6 (English-NIV) says the following:
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes [1] so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
The fact that Jesus is the true vine, shows us that there must also be a vine that is not true.
The next scripture shows us that those who now belong to God were once wild but now we are grafted into the cultivated tree.
Romans 11:16-17 (English-NIV)
16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
If you read this scripture in context with the surrounding scriptures, you will see that the Jews are the natural branches and we who have faith in God are the grafted in branches.
Now if we belong to Christ then we have eternal life and we will bear his fruit, because he is the true vine and we are his branches. Those who belong to this world are of their father, the Devil. They are of his seed. They are the branches of the wild vine. Those who belong to the world are in Adam. Adam is the natural vine and Satan is the gardener of that vine. Yet God is the gardener to Jesus who is our vine and God will destroy all branches that do bear fruit and he will root up the wild vine and throw it into the fire.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (English-NIV) says
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
We who belong to God are of the Tree of Life, the world is rooted in the Tree of Good and Evil.
So when God removes his presence, there will be chaos, darkness, suffering, wickedness, pain and lies. God didn't create those things as they are just the lack of him, yet God has allowed his beings to reject him so that they can truly exercise the gift of free will that he has given them. What we do with our free will is not God's responsibility however it is our responsibility. If God was ultimately responsible for our free will then it wouldn't be free will would it. God has given us free will so we can choose to love him, rather than be forced to love him. True love can only come when we choose, otherwise we would be no better than a race of robots, who are obeying a program and any expression of love would not be real because true love exists where there is choice. The Bible tells us that Love is the greatest out of Faith, Hope and Love and that God is Love.
Infact God loved the world that much that he sent his only begotten Son (Jesus) into the world to be condemned in our place. Jesus came so that the world could be saved through him and brought back into right relationship with God. God has extended his mercy to mankind and has made it possible for us to come back to him in right relationship with him forever. To be a part of the eternal vine.
If you are not saved or you are not sure that you are saved then I invite you click on the link below. Seek, and you will find. Click, and the page will be opened unto you.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/answers/answer15.htm
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
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Plow on, plow on...
David Campbell
Posts: 426 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
![[Question]](graemlins/question2.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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