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Topic: What is your view of the doctrine of "prosperity gospel"?

Robby
Advanced Member
Member # 448

posted

Let's see--the prosperity doctrine... [Eek!]

First of all, the Lord wants us to be blessed.

Jer. 29:11--For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

So God wants the best for us. But like the rich ruler in Luke 18:18-29, we must realize that even if even if we gain the whole world, yet loses our soul, we have nothing.

Jesus said to the rich ruler, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.

What the rich ruler did not understand is that if he gave up all he had for the sake of the Kingdom of God, he would be awarded with even more--many times over.

Jesus said, "No one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and in the age to came, eternal life."

Again, there is the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30). A master gave three of his servants money according to each one's ability, then he left on a journey. Two of the servants invested their talents, but the third servant dug a hole and buried his. When the master returned, he praised the two servants for investing, because they doubled their worth. But he admonished the third servant for not depositing his talent with the bankers, and receiving it back with interest. The talent was give to servant who had ten talents, then the wicked and lazy third servant was cast out.

Matt 25:29--"For everyone who has will be given more, he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."

The rich ruler and the third servant practiced the "prosperity doctrine", but it got them nowhere. [BooHoo]

Posts: 364 | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged |

art
unregistered

posted

I am a very slowwwwwww reader and my typing is even slower. It just took me 3 and one half hours to type this line. [crying]

And by the way Kindgo, this happy face dude with the cowboy hat ate my bird. [crying]

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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

posted

Amen brother! What took you so long [youpi]

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

art
unregistered

posted

Kindgo sayeth:
What is your view of the doctrine of "prosperity gospel"?

This topic started "exactly" 6 months ago so I guess I better respond.

The only "prosperity" that should be linked to the gospel is everlasting life, joy ,peace and knowledge of sins forgiven. This is true prosperity.

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Chuck_Slotter
unregistered

posted

Hi,

My stepsister was a Charismatic. She listened to Word of Faith theology including teachers like Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Peter Popoff, Marlyn Hickey, Benny Hinn.

My stepsister had lymphoma over 14 years ago which is cancer of the lymph system. My stepsister wanted to be healed by God like everyone wants to be. My stepsister also wanted to have children and chemotherapy can make you sterile.

The doctor told my stepsister if she quit the chemotherapy treatments, the cancer would come back in ten years which is what the doctor predicted.

My stepsister believed God would heal her but that wasn't God's answer. The cancer came back in ten years and my stepsister died.

My Christian stepsister was a witness and she was preaching healing to everyone and she died. The unbeliever didn't see the evidence of her preaching. My stepsister wasn't healed in this life. This is what happens when you believe a lie from the faith healers instead of believing that God is sovereign and God calls the shots instead of you. Faith is dependent on God. If God doesn't say it and it doesn't come to pass then it is a false prophecy from false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:22) because the healing didn't come to pass.

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grace case
Advanced Member
Member # 1372

posted

Greetings to all,

I think what one should consider when contemplating the agenda of the "prosperity gospel" is where is the evidence of the financial "blessings" for the entire Body of Christ...equally?

"God is not a respecter of persons"...yet, only a select few seem to be receiving the "blessings of Abraham" and can live like the "King's Kids."

But the "prosperity preachers" on TBN will tell you that if you "have enough faith" you can "name and claim your blessings" and, if you "sow a seed when you have a need" you will get a double portion.

But in reality...this just isn't so.

quote:
1 Timothy 6:6-10,

"Men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
Now godliness with contentment is great gain.

For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.

But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

It all comes down to, "Where your treasure is stored up...there shall your heart be also."

Jesus wasn't rich...and what little He had as the carpenter's son...He walked away from, to do the Father's will. "The Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

When one considers our poverty-stricken Christian brothers and sisters in the Northern Sudan...ask yourself, "where is their financial prosperity?"

These faithful people face death, torture, extreme mutilation, rape, being sold into slavery, and having their babies taken away if they refuse to renounce the name of their God and Savior...Jesus Christ.

Yet, these are some of the poorest people on earth...but are among the most devout and faithful Christian Believers.

Our church has a very fruitful ministry in India, and the poverty and squalor among Born Again Christians there is shocking. The slum in the captital city is more than a million people. If some of these "prosperity preachers" had to live in those conditions full time, they would be on their knees bawling like babies...wondering why God is punishing them.

My wife used to have a book by the Copeland's, and it told of how they claimed their "dream house" by "naming and claiming" (abusing and using) certain Scriptures. It made me so mad, and sick to my stomach...I ripped the book into pieces, and threw it in the garbage where it belongs!

Like the Word says..."But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition."

God's Word teaches us to "Set your mind on Heavenly things...not earthly things." The earthly things perish, and the Heavenly things are forever. And besides, we have a purpose on this earth as Christian Believers. There are millions and millions of people on the path to hell right now. How can any of us, in good conscience, seek the riches of Abraham while millions, if not billions are perishing?

It is God's will "that none should perish"...yet, a huge percentage of "Christians" (especially in America and the western world) are seeking to make 'heaven on earth for themselves' now...and don't want to be "bothered" with all of that evangelizing stuff!

"Where your treasure is stored up...there shall your heart be also."

In Christ's love and glorious grace,

grace case [Cross]

--------------------
Respectfully,

In Christ's love and glorious Grace,

Mark

Posts: 253 | From: Pacific Northwest | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged |

Bobber
Advanced Member
Member # 878

posted

quote:
1Tim3:3-5

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. [From Tribal]

This scripture must however be understood in a proper context though. What is the absolute context of the meaning? It can mean alot of things but then again it might not mean alot of things that some might think. My point is Jesus did promise to cause his people to have abudance. Jesus stated, Give and it shall be given unto you good measure pressed down shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom. Luke 6:38 So we see God wants us to have an abundant supply plus also the rewards for ones who pay their tithes. It definately was talking about material things there for he was talking about giving material things and God would bless them. And then there is the scirupture which states, Give your firstfruits so shall your barns be filled with plenty...all of which is talking about material bnlessing.

Posts: 33 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Tribal
First Post
Member # 984

posted

1Tim3:3-5

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

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pastorgirl
First Post
Member # 925

posted

We can all find fault with any minister or ministry if we want. God's word tells us to "touch not His annointed one", (if we are saved we are all his annointed one). There is one basic truth. God wants us to be good stewards, and He comands us to tithe (the tithe belongs to God - Leviticus). I personally believe Luke 6:38 (give and it shall be given unto you, pressed down ....) because I have seen this principle work in my life. Regardless of my opionin if I with hold my tithe and offerings, I am robbing God (Mal 3:8-12). If I pay my tithe, and give offerings, once they leave my hand they are no longer my responsiblity. It is the responsibility of the minister or ministry which receives it. They become accountable, not to me, but to God on how they handle the stewardship of God's money. We should all worry less about how other's execute their stewardship (judge not...) and more about are we following the commands of God.

Posts: 1 | From: sweet home alabama | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

posted

Thanks Evee! [Kiss]

I agree

Nice to have you here with us...jump in and post

anywhere you want, don't be shy [Smile]

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Evee
New Member
Member # 914

posted

I think the prosperity gospel is decieving.
I think there is more harm done than good. Evee

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Evee

Posts: 2 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Lost
Advanced Member
Member # 343

posted

when it comes to any "Christian" ministry the number one question should always be, "What's the focus?" and the answer should be, "Jesus Christ!" now my problem with these prosperity teachers is that they don't focus on Jesus Christ but they focus on material blessings. this is a subtle way of bringing materialism into the church. now i agree with the malachi passage of opening the gates of heaven but in my understanding God will pour out spiritual blessings instead of material. also i remember our Lord's prayer where He stated, "Give us this day our daily bread." He didn't ask for all the riches, but just enough. just enough to not be wanting, but not too much to forget about His dependence on God. a man is not blessed according to the dollars that he makes, but according to how well he knows the Lord. another mark against the prosperity teachers is that they twist doctrine. they feel that tithing is there in order to get blessings from God. if i give X amount of dollars then God must give me X amount of blessings or dollars in return. first off, this system does not work, because man can in no way make God "owe" him something. God is never in debt to us. He didn't owe us His only begotten, and He certainly doesn't owe us a posh life just because we love Him. our eternal life is enough of an incentive for me to follow Him. second, tithing is a way of blessing God and not manipulating God to bless us. everything in the world is God's. He doesn't need us to give Him money. what tithing is about is recognizing the multitude of blessings that God has already poured out on our lives, and then giving God a small portion of that in order to bless Him back. that is why God requires a cheerful giver, cuz they are the ones who understand the tithing dynamic. these are my rambling thoughts on the subject. i think the prosperity gospel is a stumbling block for many unbelievers who point to them and say, "all the church wants is your money."

lost

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The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. - Rev 22:17

Posts: 115 | From: Los Angeles/San Diego, CA | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |

1
Advanced Member
Member # 901

posted

Hi,
I know where the discussion of give to get ministries will go. It will end up as a debate on the merits of some of the bigger tv ministries, and that's okay except for the potential hurt feelings along the way.
But, is there error within the understanding of abundance in the first place? The idea that you can't outgive God? Does that mean as some extreme preachers say if your not getting rich it is because you lack faith? Or wait is that Anthony Robbins? [Smile]

The abundance is discussed in the NT at the writings of Paul for one, and with it lessons on how to handle money that we may apply in our own life.

However, if one is to do a survey of prosperity then doesn't that start within the OT with Jacob calling his sons and foretelling of their fate? That includes Gen. 49:14,15 ( KJV) "Issachar is a strong *** {donkey} couching down between two burdens: And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute. "

As to the Robert Schueller's of TV fame. While they have prospered personally, and many of their converts are of wealth and /or motivated to get great wealth, what of those that do not make it to the top of the money pile following their doctrines?
Where is their security to be found?

How tragic to see your name on a block of bronze honoring you personally for contributing the cost of some artifact, and still know that you are in need.

Or to have some shepherd and sheep statuette on your end table instead of the word of God dwelling within to guide. If that need is to be met then must some additional artifacts be paid for?
And when the additional one is bought
then what happens other than another mention of your name in bronze, or yet another shepherd and sheep in simulated ivory to place on yet another end table?

I attended The Garden Grove Cathedral just as the crystal was being constructed. At invition to tour and learn of the ministry at the end of the service here is what Bob's "lieutenant" said,- " Right now we have seating for 1600, plus parking and car speakers outside for a few hundred more. We have over 3000 members. So you see we don't have room here for just anybody to join us. We need money to build the crystal under construction. You can still buy a window for 10,000 dollars, some have given more than 100,000 dollars. So there are 39 of you here you are welcome to tour but unless you have money to give we don't need you as a member. "

"We will start the tour by going up the 14 story tower to the wedding chapel at the top and by Bob's office with it's view of Southern California..." At that point he got into an argument with his wife over who would take what part of the group up the elevator. He wanted someone in particular himself.

Now that was a long time ago and there have been many people through those doors over the years since. I'm sure many have had spirtual lessons taught them, but how many stay there and are nourished in the word rather than rallied by guest speakers of prosperity themselves?

Oh yes , I did go up the elevator, what the heck spouse and I wanted to see the view. But as we were not rich nor really motivated by a need to acquire money we only went back one evening to see what our daughter wanted to associate with at their youth ministry. That is another wild story. We told her no, that was not an environment that we would risk having her wander though at night unescorted by an adult.

And of the crystal itself, was it to house all the members in splendor, well no not really, on our tour we were told that, " Bob is so big he cannot be confined within a building of walls he prefers the outdoors, just like when he started humbly speaking from the top of a driving movie snack bar. But you need the comfort of a year round facility so we are building this great crystal to satisfy Bob's and your desire. About those windows, your name will appear at the base of the one you buy, now this one right here is not yet bought..."

If anyone has interest, perhaps we could discuss at some near future time the lesson of Paul to us all about what he may have been saying regarding the ample supply that will refill us as we do give- and for what purpose that resupply should/could be used.

neighbor

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Mikey1967
Advanced Member
Member # 859

posted

You didn't answer my question. Did you hear him say that or did you rewrite someone else? Second, I would like to hear all what he said in context, if he said it. In the context presented, no I don't agree. But I also know that there have been plenty of quotes taken out of context that if all of what was said would have been quoted it would have made sense and lined up with scripture. I remember one in particular. An evangelist said, Jesus never said to follow God. Well that would have made a quote to get something stirred up. But he went on into the sermon (that was all scriptural) and showed that Jesus said to follow Him, because according to scripture, none knew the Father but Jesus. So he said do as He did and in doing so you will be obeying the Father. If all that had been left was that first quote then it could have also went up there with the things KC was supposed to have said.

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If ye be in Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed and heir to the promise...Gal 3:14

Posts: 82 | From: NC | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

posted

Mikey,
Did you read my post on Copeland?

Do you agree with the things he said?
Everything I posted was Copeland's words, direct quotes.

"It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that."
(Kenneth Copeland, What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audiotape #BCC-19, side 1)

What about that do you agree with that?

Copeland said it!

I will be praying for you, you are being greatly deceived.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Mikey1967
Advanced Member
Member # 859

posted

Kindgo,
I am beginning once again, like with Hinn, to see a trend to picking apart Preachers. First I would ask did you hear these things, or rewritting what you have heard or read from others about him? Second, I have listened to him alot and have never heard one thing that could not be lined up with scripture. I have noticed though that this has been a trend against preachers who don't conform to what we have traditionally thought a preacher to act like. I am sorry. I can't accept that, I have first hand experience with his teachings and haven't found anything wrong.

To fatpastor;
God loves to bless us but He is a God of abundance not a God of just enough to get by. He even said so in Maachi.

Malachi 3
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

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If ye be in Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed and heir to the promise...Gal 3:14

Posts: 82 | From: NC | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Fat Pastor
Advanced Member
Member # 890

posted

Can somebody do the research and tell us every occasion after the resurrection that there are references to God's people prospering to a point of over indulgence? or to over flowing?

I think we should look at those occasions and discuss them in context to God's Word and and His Heart.

I am a believer in prosperity for God's children, but if my prosperity does not make a major impact for God's Kingdom, than am I spiritually poor? Should I be judged as a poor steward? [Confused]

Blessings,

Fat Pastor

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Blessings,

Fat Pastor
Internet Pastors.com

Posts: 22 | From: Northern Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

posted

Mikey, You are being deceived by Kenneth Copeland!
[fie]

Trademark:
While Copeland is the father of the atonement atrocities like Jesus being the first born again man, his blasphemous doctrines seem limitless. His big promotion is that we are on equal footing with the Lord.

God is the Biggest failure in the bible

"I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is...The biggest one in the whole Bible is God...I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least - that's a big loss, man....Now, the reason you don't think of God as a failure is He never said He's a failure. And you're not a failure till you say you're one."
(Kenneth Copeland, Praise-a-thon on Praise The Lord, April 1988)

Anyone could have redeemed us.

"It wasn't a physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin...anybody can do that."
(Kenneth Copeland, What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audiotape #BCC-19, side 1)

“Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only. When He said ‘It is finished’ on that cross, He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun; there were still three days and three nights to be gone through.”
(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

“The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, ‘Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.’ He said, ‘Think this way—a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.’ And I threw my Bible down … like that. I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.’ He said, ‘You are the very image, the very copy of that one.’ I said, ‘Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could’ve done the same thing, ‘cause you’re a reborn man too.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Substitution and Identification, 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2)

Hundred fold

"Do you want a hundredfold return on your money? Give and let God multiply it back to you. Every man who invests in the Gospel has a right to expect the staggering return of one hundredfold."
(Kenneth Copeland, Laws of Prosperity, p.67)

I’m a god, you're a god!

“Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Now We Are In Christ Jesus, 1980, p. 24)

"You are not a spiritual schizophrenic -- half-God and half-Satan -- you are all-God"
(Kenneth Copeland, Now We Are in Christ Jesus, 1980, p.16-17)

“You don’t have a god in you, you are one,”
(Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Love, 1987, audiotape #02-0028, side 1)

"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!"
(Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN July 9, 1987)

"Now Peter said by exceeding great and precious promises you become partakers of the divine class. All right, are we gods? We are a class of gods!"
(Kenneth Copeland, Praise The Lord, TBN February 5, 1986)

Adam was a god

"Adam was created in God's own image and likeness, a spirit-being...[and] takes on the nature of his spiritual father or lord."
(Kenneth Copeland, Our Covenant with God, 1987, p.7-8)

“Gods reason for creating Adam was his desire to reproduce himself.” I mean a reproduction of Himself. And in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God, He was not almost like God, He was not subordinate to God even…Adam was as much like God as you can get, just the same as Jesus. Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh”
(Kenneth Copeland, Following the faith of Abraham Audio, #01-3001 side 1).

God's Physical Description:

“God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words struck Adam’s body in the face. His body and God’s were exactly the same size.”
(Holy Bible, Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition 1991, p. 45)

"If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike....If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and act and sound exactly alike....The image is that they look just alike, but the likeness is that they act alike and they are alike....All of God's attributes, all of God's authority, all of God's faith, all of God's ability was invested in that man."
(Kenneth Copeland, Authority of the Believer IV audiotape #01-0304, side 1)

"The Bible said He measured the heavens with a 9 inch span. Now the span is the difference, distance between the end of the thumb and the end of the little Finger. And, and that Bible said, in fact the amplified translation translates the Hebrew text that way. That He measured out the heavens with a 9 inch span. Well, I got a ruler and measured mine, and my span's 8 3/4 inches long. So now God's span is a quarter of an inch, a quarter inch longer than mine. So you see, that faith didn't come billowing out of some giant monster somewhere. It came out of the heart of a being that is very uncanny the way He's very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6' 2 ", 6' 3", that weighs somewhere in the neighbourhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, has a span of 8 and, I mean nine inches across - stood up and said "Light be [Let it be?]", and this universe situated itself and went into motion. Glory to God."
(Kenneth Copeland, "Spirit, Soul, and a Body 1" audiotape #01-0601, side 1)

God is a “spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet.”
(Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977)

Jesus the first reborn man

"He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived ... Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him ... [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived ... In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus ... [in] the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life ... He was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles ... Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell ... Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ... !"
(Kenneth Copeland, "The Price of it All," Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4).

“[I]n hell He [Jesus] suffered for you and for me. The Bible says hell was made for Satan and his angles. It was not made for men. Satan was holding the Son of God there illegally … The trap was set for Satan and Jesus was the bait.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Walking in the Realm of the Miraculous, 1979, p. 77)

"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, 'Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up.' He said, 'Think this way - a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.' And I threw my Bible down...like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.' He said, 'You are the very image, the very copy of that one.' I said, 'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too."
(Kenneth Copeland, Substitution and Identification, tape #00-0202, side 2)

“…that Word of the Living God went down into that pit of destruction and charges the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly, His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil has never seen before. He was literally being reborn before the devil’s very eyes. He began to flex his spiritual muscles…Jesus was born again – the firstborn from the dead."
(Kenneth Copeland The Price of it All, Believer’s Voice in Victory, vol 19 September 1991, p.9)

“He [Jesus] was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for Adam’s treason ... There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the earth, when the command of God says ‘That’s enough, loose him and let him go’.”
(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

Jesus paid in hell

"When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne...Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption."
(Kenneth Copeland, Jesus - Our Lord of Glory, Believer's Voice of Victory Magazine 10, 4; April 1982, p. 3)

"Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell"
(Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition, 1991, p.129)

"He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Price of It All, 3)

Jesus took on satan’s sin nature:

"He [Jesus] is suffering all that there is to suffer. There is no suffering left apart from Him. His emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing [hell]. And the Devil thinks he's got Him destroyed."
(Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory program, April 21, 1991)

“The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, ‘My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?’ You don’t know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, ‘Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there—the sign of Satan? Why didn’t you put a lamb on that pole?’ And the Lord said, ‘Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.’ He said, ‘I accepted, in My own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off.”
(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

Jesus "put Himself into the hands of Satan when He went to that cross, and took that same nature that Adam did [when he sinned]."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Incarnation, 1985, audiotape #01-0402, side 1)

Jesus is said to have remarked, "It was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross....I accepted, in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off."
(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

Jesus "had to give up His righteousness"
(Kenneth Copeland, The Incarnation, 1985, audiotape #01-0402, side 2)

"How did Jesus then on the cross say, ‘My God.’ Because God was not His Father any more. He took upon Himself the nature of Satan. And I’m telling you Jesus is in the middle of that pit. He’s suffering all that there is to suffer, there is no suffering left . . . apart from Him. His emaciated, little wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing and the devil thinks He’s got Him destroyed. But, all of a sudden God started talking."
(Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN, April 21, 1991)

Womb-man

"Then, he created Eve out of Adam. Now, actually God didn’t name her Eve, Adam named her Eve later. That wasn’t her name, her name was Adam . . . Adam. When God said Adam, they both came. Their authority was one and the same together. They did everything together. They had always been together. Even when she was still part of him, he was as much female as he was male, LIKE GOD IS. And God separated the female part of him and then put them back together. Andshe was Adam, they were Adam. He was the man, she was the woman. She was the man with the womb."
(Transcribed From A Message Given By Kenneth Copeland, Paw Creek Ministries)

“Adam was made in the image of God. He was as much female as he was male. He was exactly like God. Then God separated him and removed the female part. Woman means ‘man with the womb.’ Eve had as much authority as Adam did as long as they stayed together.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Sensitivity of Heart, 1984, p. 23)

The Anointing

"You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that God used when he created the heavens and the earth."
(Kenneth Copeland, Inner Image of the Covenant, side 2)

"Believers are not to be led by logic," he writes. "We are not even to be led by good sense"
(Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Faith, 7)

Sensual Manifestations

"Everything that you're able to see or touch, anything that you can feel, anything that's perceptive to the five physical senses, was originally the faith of God, and was born in the substance of God's faith."
(Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body I, 1985, audiotape #01-0601, side 1)

The faith force

"Faith is a power force," he claims. "It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Faith, 1989, 10)

"Faith is a spiritual force....It is substance. Faith has the ability to effect natural substance."
(Kenneth Copeland, Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 1982, 8)

"The force of gravity...makes the law of gravity work...this force of faith...makes the laws of the spirit world function."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, 1974, 18-19)

"Faith is God's source of power"
(Kenneth Copeland, Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 1982, 8)

"Faith was the raw material substance that the Spirit of God used to form the universe."
(Kenneth Copeland, Authority of the Believer II, 1987, audiotape #01-0302, side 1)

"The force of faith was controlling His (Jesus') ministry."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Faith, 9)

"Man was created to know that great life force and he longs for it in his dreams. Adam had that life force in him before he committed high treason"
(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2)

"God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith."
(Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)

"Faith is God's source of power"
(Kenneth Copeland, Freedom From Fear, 1983. p. 12)

The 4th Dimension

"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in My self. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord."
(Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9)

God lives on a mother planet

"You don’t think earth was first, do you? Huh? Well, you don’t think that God made man in His image, and then made earth in some other image? There is not anything under this whole sun that’s new. Are you hearing what I’m saying? This is all a copy. It’s a copy of home. It’s a copy of the Mother Planet. Where God lives, He made a little one just like His and put us on it.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I, 1989 audiotape, #01-3001, side 1)

"Heaven has a north and a south and an east and a west. Consequently, it must be a planet."
(Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul, and a Body 1, 1985, audio tape #01-0601, side 1)

Testing the spirits against the Word

Copeland claims Jesus told him personally in a vision: "Don’t be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of Me, should they not speak that way of you? The more you get to be like Me, the more they’re going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and He was in Me. Hallelujah. That's what you're doing."
(Kenneth Copeland, "Take Time To Pray," Believer’s Voice Of Victory 15, February 1987, 9)

Our Control over God's

“As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Our Covenant with God, 1987, p. 32)

Results of Lack of faith

"God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith,"
(Kenneth Copeland, Freedom from Fear, 1983, 11)

Words are spiritual containers:

"The force of faith is released by words."
(Kenneth Copeland, Authority of the Believer II, 1987, audiotape #01-0302, side 1)

"Words are spiritual containers,"
(Kenneth Copeland, Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 15; cf. 14)

"God used words when He created the heaven and the earth....Each time God spoke, He released His faith -- the creative power to bring His words to pass."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue, 1980, 4)

"As a born-again believer, you are equipped with the Word. You have the power of God at your disposal. By getting the Word deep into your spirit and speaking it boldly out your mouth, you release spiritual power to change things in the natural circumstances."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue, 1980, 15)

"Words create pictures, and pictures in your mind create words. And then the words come back out your mouth....And when that spiritual force comes out it is going to give substance to the image that's on the inside of you. Aw, that's that visualization stuff! Aw, that's that New Age! No, New Age is trying to do this; and they'd get somewhat results out of it because this is spiritual law, brother."
(Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN, March 28, 1991)

"Words are the most sacred things....This is a word planet...governed by words...created by words....Words cause it to function...cause life...cause death....Words go on forever....Words are holy."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Abrahamic Covenant, side 1)

God is banned from the earth unless the church lets him in

“God’s on the outside looking in. He doesn’t have any legal entree into the earth. The thing don’t belong to Him. You see how sassy the Devil was in the presence of God in the book of Job? God said, ‘Where have you been?’ Wasn’t any of God’s business. He [Satan] didn’t even have to answer if he didn’t want to ... God didn’t argue with him a bit! You see, this is the position that God’s been in … Might say, ‘Well, if God’s running things He’s doing a lousy job of it.’ He hadn’t been running ’em, except when He’s just got, you know, a little bit of a chance.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 1)

“Here’s where we’re gonna depart from ordinary church: Now, you see, God is injecting His Word into the earth to produce this Jesus—these faith-filled words that framed the image that’s in Him … He can’t just walk onto the earth and say, ‘Let it be!’ because He doesn’t have the right. He had to sneak it in here around the god of this world that was blockin’ every way that he possibly could.”
(Kenneth Copeland, The Image of God in You III, 1989, audiotape #01-1403, side 2)

“The Bible says that God gave this earth to the sons of men … and when [Adam] turned and gave that dominion to Satan, look where it left God. If left Him on the outside looking in … He had no legal right to do anything about it, did He? … He had injected Himself illegally into the earth—what Satan had intended for Him to do was to fall for it—pull off an illegal act and turn the light off in God, and subordinate God to himself … He intended to get God into such a trap that He couldn’t get out.”
(Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017)

“Adam committed high treason; and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given to him was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in … After Adam’s fall, God found Himself in a peculiar position …God needed an avenue back into the earth …God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to God ... Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself.”
(Kenneth Copeland, Our Covenant with God, 1987, pp. 8-11)

“God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. He had to have covenant with somebody. ... He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn’t come. God is on the outside looking in. In order to have any say so in the earth, He’s going to have to be in agreement with a man here.”
(Kenneth Copeland, God’s Covenants With Man II, 1985, audiotape #01-4404, side 1)

Jesus died spiritually:

"Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that price. It wasn't physical death anybody could do that."
(Kenneth Copeland, What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost, audio tape #020022)

Earthly Riches:

"The basic principle of the Christian life is to know that God put our sin, sickness, disease, sorrow, grief, and poverty on Jesus at Calvary," he asserts. "For Him to put any of this on us now would be a miscarriage of justice."
(Kenneth Copeland, The Troublemaker, 6)

"I don't preach doctrine, I preach faith."
(Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I, side 2)

“Well, they say, you need balance in this, get out there in that hyper faith, that name-it-and-claim-it, that blab-it-and-grab-it. YEAH! We named it and claimed it and got it. (crowd cheers)-Blabbed it and grabbed it and still got it ! Hallelujah! And our bills are paid."
(Kenneth Copeland, speaking at John Hagee's Church, August 18,1999)

Health:

"You began to meditate on those scriptures until you built an inner image of yourself healed. As that image grew more crisp and clear, you began to expect- or hope for - that image to become a reality. Eventually, faith rose up, put substance to that internal image and turned it into an external reality. ... That spiritual process always works the same way. Hope forms the image according to the Word, then faith rises up and gives substance to that image, making it a reality in the natural, physical realm. ... Actually, what you did is activate the scriptural process described in Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... Boil it down to its simplest form, and you could write it like this: God's Word+Hope+Faith=Manifestation! ... You'll be expecting the very presence of God to rise up in you so powerfully that instead of believing for healing every six weeks, you'll walk in divine health every day!"
(Kenneth Copeland, "Expect The Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory magazine, January 1998, p. 5)

"... It wasn't Peter's shadow that healed them. What was it? That field of Glory that surrounded him. That's what [sic] God put hope in you to expect. The Glory! ... It will flood the earth when we meditate upon the Glory of God so much that hope rises up and produces an image. Then faith will release the Glory of God from the inside of us where we can't see it to the outside where we can see it! ... Does this sound wild to you? Well, it's not! If you'll go back and read the Bible, you'll see that's what Christianity is all about. God intended for the Body of Christ to walk through this earth with such a manifestation of His presence in our lives that it would either scare people spitless ... or draw them into the Kingdom of God!"
(Kenneth Copeland, "Expect The Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory magazine, January 1998, p. 6)

Jesus Christ communicates directly with Copeland

“Don’t be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of Me, should they not speak that way of you? The more you get to be like Me, the more they’re going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah.”
(Kenneth Copeland, “Take Time to Pray,” Believer’s Voice of Victory, February 1987, p. 9)

Jesus was raped by homosexual Roman soldiers

“Let me tell you something folks. Anybody in here that’s ever been sexually abused, listen to me right now. Listen to me very carefully. The Bible’s very careful about the way it says these things. But down there in that dungeon, Romans, ungodly men, ungodly men, put Him (Jesus) to every kind of abuse that you can think of. There is no sin that Jesus didn’t bare. There is no thing, there is no such thing as a sexual abuse on somebody that Jesus doesn’t know firsthand what it’s all about. He’s been where you are. I don’t care what you’ve been through, Jesus has been through it. And everything’s done to him that we couldn’t even speak of.”
(Kenneth Copeland, The Resurrection Truth)

Research:

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/c53.html
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/copeland/general.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/Wf19.htm
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcopeland.html

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Mikey1967
Advanced Member
Member # 859

posted

Some of what is written here, I can't agree with. Kenneth Copeland for one. I know this man is anointed of God.

But what concerns me is this. We seem to want to group together ALL who become rich, and might I point out that those that were mentioned are doing the Lords work, with those who are corrupt. Just because you have money does not make you corrupt. Why would you think there is any draw to get people who are sinners to come hear the Word if they think that to serve God you have to be poor? Now we may say that we don't believe that way, but whenever a brother or sister in Christ recieves what the Lord promised us, we want to point fingers in judgement.

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If ye be in Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed and heir to the promise...Gal 3:14

Posts: 82 | From: NC | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

njclary
unregistered

posted

I have designed a number of Churches and some of these ministries are prosperity ministries and the first thing the Preacher does when the ministry begins to grow is buy that big black Mercedes Benz with the gold trim, [and I am not kidding]

I note Scripturally, Paul/Saul was from a wealthy important family and he gave it ALL up to preach the Gospel, He could have at least asked for assistance from time to time but he chose not to. He would suppliment with making tents or whatever work there was to do.

In the prosperity movement where does the emphasis get placed. If I give because I'm going to get, what would be my reward? I know that what I give rewards the givee. [Ain't none of them poor]

At the same time it places a tremendous guilt on those who truly cannot afford it. This one preacher with the big black car is from a very poor parish, all these people have personal needs, but out of guilt they give, and then can't feed their families.

Some ministry.

God Bless

Joel

IP: Logged |

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

1TIM 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1JN 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

I agree with those Scriptures posted by Mikey1967
, but not to be taken out of context as do the “Prosperity Teachers” do.

The lifestyle of all the “Prosperity Teachers” that I have listened to make void their message, by their standard of living.

The example set by the early Church as in the Book of Acts was one of sharing all things in common, that none had need. The Apostle Paul even though he was entitled to support, worked with is own hands for his needs, that none could reproach his preaching of the Gospel.

Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Oral Roberts, and many others of the same crowd, bring a reproach to the Gospel and the cause of Christ by their lifestyle. Flashy cars, flashy clothes, ridiculous waste of funds.

And it carries over into the Church on money wasted on Fancy so called
Worship Centers and Educational Building that are nothing more than gymnasiums,

And all the while people in the same cities, has people sleeping in the street and have nothing to eat.

The Church does not need that kind of junk!

Some wise man was said all that is needed to reach people that are cold is to build a fire, the people will come if the Church will build a fire.

God help us to build fires to warm a cold, hungry, and dying world.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Bearer
Advanced Member
Member # 40

posted

AMEN!!!!! AMEN!!!!!!

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Mary At Bearer Ministries

Posts: 50 | From: Spencer, NC | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Mikey1967
Advanced Member
Member # 859

posted

I will answer with scriptures.

He Who was rich became poor that we may become rich.

The wealth of the wicked is layed up for the righteous.

He supplies all my needs according to His riches in glory throught Christ Jesus.

There are more, but I will stop there for now. But it also must be understood that He gives wealth for a purpose. He isn't going to give you wealth to sit on a yacht somewhere, but to use it for the Gospel.

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If ye be in Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed and heir to the promise...Gal 3:14

Posts: 82 | From: NC | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

posted

What is your view of the doctrine of "prosperity gospel"?

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

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