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Topic: Are My Questions Not Good Enough for You?
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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Hi Zeena,
Hello ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
quote:
I must say I'm not sure what to what you are alluding. But please stay a while. Maybe it will become clear to me.
I had no revelation on this subject after quoting Zechariah 11:14 and the Lord gave me nothing though I pleaded ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
So I waited 'till he who's right it was would come.. ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
quote:
The people promised to 1) obey God's voice and 2) keep God's covenant. The only covenant in effect at the time of that promise was the covenant given to Abraham. The covenant of Sinai came later.
And, if we examine the Abraham covenant we indeed see that result of the covenant was for God to have "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation". This reality all inherited through Christ (1Peter 2:7).
So, the Mosaic Law was given was because of transgressions (Gal 3:19) not as the first part of the total package. It's purpose was to protect the people through whom the Seed would come. In the fullness of time once the Seed of the Abraham covenant came into the earth the Mosaic Law had proven its worth.
Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Romans 11:28-36
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
“ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
“ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
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And just so you know I'm completely off my rocker: I believe that the Laws that are written on our heart are not the laws given at Sinai. They are the Laws of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. If you will ask me I can demonstrate this quite plainly through scripture.
Praise God!
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:13
For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.
There's MUCH more to add to those few verses.. Please feel free, for you ARE! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Bless you Zeena and Keith and Billy,
Aaron
God bless you too Aaron ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008
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Aaron
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posted
Hi Zeena,
I must say I'm not sure what to what you are alluding. But please stay a while. Maybe it will become clear to me.
Keith wrote this:
quote:
He gave them the law first, which they miserably failed to keep, even right after they made the above promise.
The people promised to 1) obey God's voice and 2) keep God's covenant. The only covenant in effect at the time of that promise was the covenant given to Abraham. The covenant of Sinai came later.
And, if we examine the Abraham covenant we indeed see that result of the covenant was for God to have "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation". This reality all inherited through Christ (1Peter 2:7).
So, the Mosaic Law was given was because of transgressions (Gal 3:19) not as the first part of the total package. It's purpose was to protect the people through whom the Seed would come. In the fullness of time once the Seed of the Abraham covenant came into the earth the Mosaic Law had proven its worth.
And just so you know I'm completely off my rocker: I believe that the Laws that are written on our heart are not the laws given at Sinai. They are the Laws of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. If you will ask me I can demonstrate this quite plainly through scripture.
Bless you Zeena and Keith and Billy,
Aaron
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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223
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posted
Yes, thank you Keith for your input into this mystery
I was waiting patiently for the Lord to bring you
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Keith:
quote:
Keith, I'm not quite sure what point you are addressing with your post.
My bad Aaron, I used the wrong verses. I knew what I was looking for, and used the concordence to find it. I didn't check the context though, the wording was what I remembered, but the context was all wrong. The following verses are what I meant to use.
Exod 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Exod 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
The covenant made with Abraham was the everlasting covenant which was, and is fulfilled in Christ, the seed of Abraham.
Gen 17: 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Y. b. in C. Keith
Ah, ok. Thanks for clarifying that, brother.
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Aaron
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Keith
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Keith, I'm not quite sure what point you are addressing with your post.
My bad Aaron, I used the wrong verses. I knew what I was looking for, and used the concordence to find it. I didn't check the context though, the wording was what I remembered, but the context was all wrong. The following verses are what I meant to use.
Exod 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Exod 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
The covenant made with Abraham was the everlasting covenant which was, and is fulfilled in Christ, the seed of Abraham.
Gen 17: 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Keith:
Hello Aaron
snip
Keith, I'm not quite sure what point you are addressing with your post.
This passage does not reference the covenant at Sinai:
quote:
Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
This is a reference to the covenant given to Abraham for the Sinai covenant was not given until the next chapter.
There were two covenants: one given to Abraham and his Seed and one given to the Jews who gathered at Sinai.
Moses said:
quote:
Deu 5:2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Paul noted this was different than the covenant given to Abraham:
quote:
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Under the Abraham covenant: the people would be a nation of priests
Under the Sinai covenant: only the tribe of Levi would be priests
Under the Abraham covenant: the people would be a holy nation
Under the Sinai covenant: the people would only be a nation
Under the Abraham covenant: the people would be sons of God
Under the Sinai covenant: the people would be slaves to the law
Under the Abraham covenant: the people would be righteous
Under the Sinai covenant: the people could not be righteous
Again, I'm not sure what you were addressing. I apologize if this is redundant to you.
Aaron
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Keith
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Hello Aaron
God never established a covenant based upon the law as a meams of righteousness. This mistake has always been on the human side. God knows, and has always known that apart from Him, and a new life through His Son Jesus Christ, no person can keep His law. Not until Christ, has the law ever been fulfilled in human flesh since the fall. Nor will it ever be, lest Christ lives in the one fulfilling it. These things could not be fully realized, until Christ came as one of us, and fulfilled the law of God in fallen human flesh. This is our salvation, not just the forgiveness of sins, but a new creature in Christ Jesus. One who has the law of God written upon the heart, and not just beholding it written on tables of stone.
1 Pet 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The problem is the same in both covenants, disobedience. What causes disobedience, but a lack of faith. People do not obey God, because they do not believe that it is in their best interest to do so. They do not trust God’s judgment.
Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
The problem of the old covenant was not the law, for even Paul says the law is good, and spiritual. Nor is it with the covenant that God made with Israel, but rather with the covenant which Israel made with God, “All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.” The Lord knew that they could not keep this promise. He gave them the law first, which they miserably failed to keep, even right after they made the above promise. Then He gave them the sanctuary and it’s services, which all pointed to Christ, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world. They were to understand the same truth that we are, the law of God is not the means of righteousness, but rather the standard of righteousness. A standard to which every one of us miserably falls short.
Thus their eyes were to be turned to the Lamb of God, who alone takes away the sins of the world, and establishes righteousness in the same. By faith in Him they were to obtain forgiveness of sins, and the power to have a changed life, one which fulfilled the law, rather than breaking it. The gospel has always been the same, it is the everlasting covenant, of which the old and new covenant are separate parts. The one before Christ pointing to Him, and the other after Christ, pointing back to His fulfillment of the prophecies of the word of God pertaining to the everlasting covenant. The new covenant is built upon better promises, that is to say, fulfilled promises.
Salvation has always been by faith alone. Faith in the only begotten of God. The Jews had the gospel presented to them also, they just did not believe. Trusting in their own works, rather than the works of God. The same problem exists on a major scale today among God’s professed people.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Faith has always been the standard, that has made the difference in the lives of those who claimed to be God’s people during both the old and new covenant eras. Faith is complete, when what you believe is acted out in your life. It is the faith that saves you, the acting out is just the natural consequence of true faith. Thus Hebrews chapter eleven.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
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Aaron
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I like what you added Keith. There is much there I'll have to chew on.
I think it is important to apprehend that there are two covenants we have to deal with when we consider the fate of the DNA children of Abraham and the Spiritual children of the Promise.
One covenant was given at Sinai. That was the Law. This covenant was given to the DNA children of Abraham, the Jews in the flesh. The promises there related to them becoming a nation (not a holy nation) and them receiving Gods protection and order established through the Law. The Law, although necessary, did not produce righteousness or sons for God. It produced only slaves. Nevertheless, through Sinai, the terrestrial nation of Israel was established.
The other covenant was given to Abraham and his Seed; the person of Jesus Christ. This covenant had to do with God establishing the means by which He (God) would have sons. Through this covenant men could be redeemed from sin and death and inherit the nature of God Himself, the Holy Spirit would dwell in them. About these people, not the DNA children but the children born of the Spirit, God would say "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people..." (1Pet 2:9). Through this covenant the Spiritual nation of Israel was established.
So all men (Jew or otherwise) could inherit the Kingdom by the same means: through Christ.
Aaron
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Zeena
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posted
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keith
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Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The gospel was to the Jew first, and then to the gentile. The remnant of Israel accepted their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, their promised Messiah. The kingdom of God was never taken away from them, they were the true children of Abraham. However, those Jews who rejected their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, had the kingdom of God taken away from them. It was given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. This nation is spiritual Israel. Those who call themselves Christian, and truly are so, are really converted Jews. They are spiritual Israel. The name Christian was attached to them later, because they followed Christ.
Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The kingdom of God was taken from literal Israel, and given to those who were the children of Abraham, according to the promise, not the flesh. What was the promise, but that through the seed of Abraham, which seed was Christ, all nations of the earth would be blessed. We were graffed in, not the other way around. We are Israel, the true children of Abraham, according to the promise, not the flesh. Those who are Israel according to the flesh, have lost the kingdom of God to those who are Israel according to the promise. Though they may regain it at any time by becoming children of the promise, instead of children according to the flesh. Which blessing has been opened up to the entire world through Christ Jesus, the promised seed of Abraham.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
I am a Christian, and I do not at all mind being called one, for the desire of my heart is to follow my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The truth of the matter though, is that I am a converted Jew. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was a Jew, and salvation is of the Jews through Him.
John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
True Christians are really converted Jews. They were graffed into the vine, not the other way around. The Jews of the flesh are the branches which were broken off. They may be graffed back into the vine at any time. Those blessings and promises made to Israel in the scriptures no longer apply to the Israel of the flesh, but to the Israel of the Spirit, spiritual Israel. So to now, does biblical prophecy concerning Israel relate to spiritual Israel, and not literal Israel. Countless Christians are looking to the Israel of the flesh for the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, when this fulfillment will never come. The literal things of this world are coming to an end, only that which is spiritual will remain when Christ returns.
Those Jews who rejected their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, largely did so, because He was not fulfilling biblical prophecy according to the desires of their flesh. That is to say, He did not come to re-establish the literal nation of Israel in a position of power again in this world, but rather to establish spiritual Israel in this world. The new covenant kingdom of God is composed only of those who are born again according to the promise, and not of any of those who are of the flesh. Christians today, who are looking to the Israel of the flesh for the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, are in danger of repeating the same mistake of those Jews who rejected the Lord Jesus Christ.
It was by believing a false interpretation of biblical prophecy, that the Jews who rejected Christ ended up fulfilling the true interpretation of biblical prophecy. The end of such things is not in accordance with the will of God for humanity, but rather the will of the enemy of us all, the devil himself.
Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead:
Even the Apostles were slow to learn about the spiritual kingdom which Christ came to set up.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Countless “Christians” are still looking for the exaltation of literal Israel in this world, along with themselves, according to a false interpretation of biblical prophecy. The result will be that same as the first time. They will effectively reject their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through His true followers here on earth, who are preaching the true fulfillment of biblical prophecy through the true and spiritual Israel of the new covenant. History is so often like that, it is always repeating itself. This is only because we so often allow ourselves to forget the lessons learned the hard way by it.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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Billy
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We are putting a puzzle together, here. While I appreciate your eagerness to join in by throwing another piece of the puzzle on the table, could you please show us where it fits into the entiretly of it? I must humbly admit that I do not see where it fits.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Zeena
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
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3. Thirdly, can you explain to me why God would choose to have two flocks (the church and the Jewish race), when it so obviously contradicts the New Testament, as I pointed out in my last post?
I don't know why you see two flocks?
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." (Eph 2:15 )
This refers to the Jews and the Gentiles insomuch as they are 'one' in Christ. One Spirit, one body one baptism!
Zechariah 11:14
Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Aaron
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Originally posted by Billy:
I agree with what you have said with respect to the law and it's implications for today. However, when Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law, He did not just leave it at that. He said that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. This does not simply allude to the law given to Moses.
The Israelites referred to the writings of the Old Testament as the Law and the Prophets. Many scholars still refer to the Old Testament as such. Read Josh McDowell's The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict for more on this.
Therefore we can say with absolute certainty that Jesus was talking about the entirety of the Old Testament. I simply believe that Jesus was referring to the covenents as well as the ordinances. From my understanding of the New Testament, we find Jesus to be the fulfillment of everything we read in the Old Testament.
That's essentially what I was saying. It was not the law that contained the entirety of God's promises. It seemed like you were saying that. The law was fulfilled in that it successfully preserved the line through which the Seed would come.
The Prophets were fulfilled in that the entirety of God's purpose for man is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. Indeed, He is the fulfillment of both the law and the prophets.
Aaron
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Billy
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I agree with what you have said with respect to the law and it's implications for today. However, when Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law, He did not just leave it at that. He said that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. This does not simply allude to the law given to Moses.
The Israelites referred to the writings of the Old Testament as the Law and the Prophets. Many scholars still refer to the Old Testament as such. Read Josh McDowell's The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict for more on this.
Therefore we can say with absolute certainty that Jesus was talking about the entirety of the Old Testament. I simply believe that Jesus was referring to the covenents as well as the ordinances. From my understanding of the New Testament, we find Jesus to be the fulfillment of everything we read in the Old Testament.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
I would agree, to an extent. Jews under Jewish law are not partakers in the cup of the covenant that we as Christians have with Christ. Therefore, they have been discarded in as much as they have no hope of salvation apart from Christ. However, we know that the gospel came for the Jew first, and then for the Greek.
So, there is nothing that says that the Jews cannot come to a saving knowledge of Christ, as we know that many have. Also, we are told in Galatians three that, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek. Thus we can discern that the covenant is the same for all mankind, in so much as they come to Christ who said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."
This is what I believe Galatians 4:26 is alluding to. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Thus, His new covenent was an ultimate fulfillment of all of God's promises. Indeed, through Christ (Abraham's seed), God has chosen to bless all nations. Thus, every promise God made, from Genesis 3 to Genesis 15 and through the entire Old Testament find their fulfillment in Christ's "New Covenent."
By the way...
Thank you for your post. It has charged me with a desire to dig deeper into Galatians.
In Christ,
Billy
Oh certainly. The promise is to all found in Christ: Jew, Greek or otherwise.
About the promises being fulfilled: I think "I have come to fulfill the Law" has more to do with the purpose of the Law than the promises of God. Certainly the law is not the only place where promises were given.
But, if the Law was given
1) as a schoolmaster
2) to preserve the line through which the SEED would come
3) TILL the Seed should come
it is no stretch to understand what Christ meant to fulfill the Law. If you will, consider the Law like a womb that protects and nourishes a child (the Seed) until the time of birth (the arrival of Jesus). Once the birth arrives the purpose of the womb is fulfilled.
Now, it would be foolish to say about the womb "What a useless thing the womb is!" The womb had an important purpose and the baby needed it for a set time.
It would be equally foolish to say "You better put that baby back in the womb." No, the purpose of the womb is fulfilled. Indeed, the arrival of the baby confirmed that the womb completed it's intended purpose.
In light of this analogy it is easier to understand the following verse: Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."
We, who have received the salvation through faith in the Seed, are THE evidence that the law was righteous and brought the One through whom all men can be saved. It's not that we bring back the Sinai mandates that produce only slaves it's that we are the evidence that God's purpose of the Law was complete.
Perhaps this is another thread.
Aaron
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Billy
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I would agree, to an extent. Jews under Jewish law are not partakers in the cup of the covenant that we as Christians have with Christ. Therefore, they have been discarded in as much as they have no hope of salvation apart from Christ. However, we know that the gospel came for the Jew first, and then for the Greek.
So, there is nothing that says that the Jews cannot come to a saving knowledge of Christ, as we know that many have. Also, we are told in Galatians three that, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek. Thus we can discern that the covenant is the same for all mankind, in so much as they come to Christ who said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."
This is what I believe Galatians 4:26 is alluding to. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Thus, His new covenent was an ultimate fulfillment of all of God's promises. Indeed, through Christ (Abraham's seed), God has chosen to bless all nations. Thus, every promise God made, from Genesis 3 to Genesis 15 and through the entire Old Testament find their fulfillment in Christ's "New Covenent."
By the way...
Thank you for your post. It has charged me with a desire to dig deeper into Galatians.
In Christ,
Billy
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Aaron
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"Also, the Jews will be persecuted until the very last. The children of the bond-servant (the child of Abraham's attempt to please, or fulfill the promise of God), are said to do so - persecute them."
Paul contrasts the two covenants: the Mosaic Law and the Law of Life in Christ Jesus. Here's what I see regarding these verses:
Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.
We know the two sons: Isaac born of Sarah and Ishmael born of Hagar.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
We know this story, too: Abraham sought to fulfil God's promise through the flesh and slept with Hagar the bondwoman, bearing Ishmael. Later, God opened Sarah's womb and Isaac was conceived.
Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[fn4] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar--
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children--
Ok, now he's talking about "symbolism". Paul writes that the two women represent two covenants.
Then he writes: the one covenant given from Sinai, the one that gives birth to bondage, is HAGAR.
Wait, who's children were at Sinai?
Sarah's children were at Sinai, the Jews.
The Jews were given the covenant that produced bondage. At Sinai the Jews were given the Law. The Law is the covenant that produces slaves hence the Law represents the slave woman, Hagar.
The corresponding evidence for this is the Jews in terrestrial Jerusalem who are still under the Law.
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The children who are free, who are not in bondage, who are born of the promise (of which all believers are as they are in Christ), are from the Jerusalem above.
Gal 4:27 For it is written:
"Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
Here: the barren woman is Hagar: she could not have children of promise under the promise covenant until the Seed of the covenant came.
"For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband."
See? The one who had a husband was Sarah so the desolate woman, Hagar, will have more children of promise than the one who had a husband. Sarah had but one child of promise: Isaac. But, through Christ, many more children of promise were born.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Paul writes that all believers are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Paul references the persecution of the saints at the hands of the Jews. He began this part of the letter explaining of Jewish law-keepers were invading the ranks of Christians and imposing the restrictions of the Law upon their lives.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
Those who remain slaves under the law (the Jews) will not inherit the portion due the sons of promise (Christians). So, cast out those who would try to mix slavery (legalism) with freedom.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
We are not Jews. We are from the Seed of promise: Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Any way, that's how I see it.
Aaron
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Billy
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"I don't know why you see two flocks?"
I don't see two flocks. Pastor Hagee does, and it is clear that he does to anyone that has an ear to hear.
"'Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.' (Eph 2:15 )
"This refers to the Jews and the Gentiles insomuch as they are 'one' in Christ. One Spirit, one body one baptism!"
I agree, wholeheartedly. As long as Jews accept Christ, they are one with us, in the body of Christ. That is why I don't agree with Pastor Hagee's theology.
"Moreover, I don't know why you overlook the desire that is out there on the part of Christians to see the Jews saved."
I don't overlook this. Moreover, I strongly desire to see Jews be saved, myself. However, this is a far cry from what I have heard preached from the stage of Cornerstone Baptist Church, in San Antonio. One day, when flipping through the channels, I came across a fundraiser that Pastor Hagee was holding to send money to Israel (not gospel tracts, bibles or missionaries, but money). He had a fellow on stage with him whose name escapes me. This man made the claim that the only difference between Jews and Christians was that the Jews were still waiting on the first advent of their Messiah, while we are waiting on the second. This is blasphemy! The Jews (by which I mean, those that adhere to Judaism) do not affirm the doctrines of the Trinity, the deity of Jesus, the blood atonement of Jesus on the cross or the resurrection of Christ. They believe in a different God! Jews themselves will tell you this. They believe they have the right God, and we have a false god. And why is there such a strong urge to be tolerant of the religious convicions of the Jews? Because Hagee doesn't want them to know what the Bible really teaches; that without Christ, they are dead in their sins. Why? Because this is an offense to them, as your story aptly conveyed, and Hagee is more concerned with maintaining a political alliance than seeing the Jewish people saved.
"I see it around. I have heard the prayers in churches. In fact John Hagee is after that very thing. But you refuse it out of hand."
You cannot win Jews to Christ without preaching Him as their Messiah. Pastor Hagee has gone so far in trying to bridge political relations with Israel that he has flatly rejected the notion that Christ even claimed to be the Messiah. If you don't believe me, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI
"If you reject him as being concerned about the Jews, how will you recognize anybody else?"
Those that are concerned about the Jews will show it by sharing with them their understanding of the first advent of their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the gospel. The term Messianic Jews is used of those that believe Jesus to be their Messiah. Therefore, in light of the things that Pastor Hagee has said, I don't understand why it is that I've encountered people on this message board that actually believe that he has any spiritual concern for them. How does one become a Messianic Jew if it is not that Jesus has been revealed to them as their Messiah. What Hagee is attempting to do is give Jewish people an out, when it comes to receiving the gospel as it pertains to Jewish people. They should be the easiest to witness to, because they have the Old Testament to go on. However, when they have ammunition such as this in their hands, it makes it much easier for the devil to swoop down and take away the seed before it has a chance to take root.
"Also, the Jews will be persecuted until the very last. The children of the bondservant (the child of Abraham's attempt to please, or fulfill the promise of God), are said to do so - persecute them."
These last few sentences have been cryptic to me, please cite references so that we might be on the same foot. If you are referring to the church as the children of Abraham (Galatians 3), I fully agree. We will and have been persecuted throughout the ages, and it is even going on now, more than ever, in many third world and communist countries the world over.
"And until they recognize the Messiah, as a whole, His blood will be upon them just as they said when they crucified HIm."
I disagree. Christ's blood is on all of us until we recognize Him as our Messiah. No Christian Jew has His blood on their hands once they have repented and put faith in Him as their Savior. If anything, Jerusalem received its judgment when it was destroyed, along with the temple, in AD70. Jesus said, in Matthew 24, that a generation would not pass away until this happened. To the Israelites, 40 years was considered the time span of a generation. The Jewish people wandered in the desert for 40 years, until the old generation died off. It just so happens that Jerusalem was destroyed and a great tribulation broke out, in AD70, 40 years after Christ's prophecy. Coincidence? I think not. And neither did the reformers.
This idea of a seven year tribulation that has not taken place, but is to take place in the end times, is a new idea to the church. It has existed for less that 150 years, and it flies in the face of Martin Luther, Wycliffe, Witfield, and the like. It does not utilize proper hermaneutics by checking with the church's traditional interpretation of the text, and it goes against what we know of history from first century historians about the destruction of Jerusalem. I humbly admonish you to read the works of Tacitus and Flavius Josephus on the destruction of Jerusalem and see if it does not line up with Matthew 24.
Now that I have dispelled any notion that I have some alterior motive against the Jews, will someone please answer my questions, rather than simply trying to find fault in them, or in my motives for asking them?
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Michael Harrison
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3. Thirdly, can you explain to me why God would choose to have two flocks (the church and the Jewish race), when it so obviously contradicts the New Testament, as I pointed out in my last post?
I don't know why you see two flocks?
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." (Eph 2:15 )
This refers to the Jews and the Gentiles insomuch as they are 'one' in Christ. One Spirit, one body one baptism!
Moreover, I don't know why you overlook the desire that is out there on the part of Christians to see the Jews saved. I see it around. I have heard the prayers in churches. In fact John Hagee is after that very thing. But you refuse it out of hand. If you reject him as being concerned about the Jews, how will you recognize anybody else?
Also, the Jews will be persecuted until the very last. The children of the bondservant (the child of Abraham's attempt to please, or fulfill the promise of God), are said to do so - persecute them. And until they recognize the Messiah, as a whole, His blood will be upon them just as they said when they crucified HIm.
I used to talk to a man, Nahum Arbel, from Israel. He was an artist there. His hatred both for the British, and the Arab's was intense. He used the story of the Yellow Jackets to illustrate one method that they used to draw the Arabs into a fight. Whenever a Yellow Jacket Bee is killed, he is not left to rot. The other Yellow Jackets will come to that dead bee, and dismember him, and eat, or carry off the carcass. He told me how that they would kill an Arab, or whomever, and wait for the others to come, one by one, and they would do-em-in!
When I tried to talk to him about Jewish Christians, he balked abruptly, as if I touched a nerve, restrained, but visibly seething, and he responded meanly, "There are no Jewish Christians." It seems that they have to face what some of us Christians have to face, in that some "Christians" have utter contempt for "Other Christians" who do not fit their ideal. Nahum could not recognize a Jewish believer as anything but a traitor, or someone just out for the money. I am sad that I didn't press the subject a little bit.
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Aaron
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Originally posted by Billy:
Someone please answer my questions. I believe that they are worth exploring. If they are not, please tell me why. In case you have come late, let me list them, again.
1. Where do pre-tribulationalists see a break in the flow of many prophetic that allows for such a sudden and drastic switch in interpretation methods to be used in the span of one chapter? I explain what I mean by this in my earlier post (on the Pastor Hagee thread).
2. Also, could you explain to me how this method of interpreting prophecy lines up with Deuteronomy 18?
3. Thirdly, can you explain to me why God would choose to have two flocks (the church and the Jewish race), when it so obviously contradicts the New Testament, as I pointed out in my last post?
4. Furthermore, could someone explain to me how the political zeal of Zionism to see war take place in the middle east is at all biblical?
5. Fifthly, can someone explain to me how all this fervor surounding end times prophecy is permissible in light of Amos 5?
6. Sixthly, if we really loved the Jews, wouldn't we be sharing the love of Christ with them, instead of encouraging them to go into battle with their neighbors and be killed? In case you have forgotten, the majority of modern day Israelis openly admit to being atheists, and the rest have not accepted Christ as their Savior, without which they have no hope of being saved.
7. Finally, where is Christ in all of this? It seems to me that he has been put in the backseat in the minds of many Zionists that are more concerned with an earthly kingdom, when their supposed Savior said that His kingdom was not of this world. Rendor unto Caezar, man.
Billy,
Pardon me. I do not want to answer your questions directly but I do want to comment on the theme of your questions.
The church, for some time now (perhaps ever since Constantine ~ 325 A.D.) has pursued the favor of earthly kings and governments in spite of its mandate of fealty to The One King; Jesus Christ. Because of this, there are many seemingly "Christian" movements and mindsets that are based not on the direction of God the Father but upon principles grounded in terrestrial politics. However, because these nuances have existed for centuries most give no thought to their origin and simply continue to support them without question. Indeed, even if a mindset should clearly contradict scripture, it is all the while embraced as "sound doctrine" because of the centuries of tradition built upon it.
But God promises to shake everything that can be shaken. And, in these last days, we can expect all false doctrines to come crashing down. When the Lord is finished only that which is of Heaven will remain.
In this season, one such area God is shaking is our perspective of the DNA children of Abraham: those born not of the spirit but rather, of the flesh. This includes both the Arab and the Jew. While I am quite certain God is not finished with the DNA children of Abraham, which is to say prophesy still remains unfinished for them, I am equally quite certain the church does not fully understand the purposes of God concerning them; either the Arab or the Jew.
There is much to say about this but for this time I want to encourage you press on with your questions but realize you are likely going to face opposition along the way: centuries of tradition will not go quietly into the grave. Above all, guard against pride and don't waste your time on people who cannot discern the times. Be willing to be corrected, especially by your elders. And remember to wait on the Lord for all things; He will not give you wisdom until you are ready to receive it.
Plow on, indeed,
Aaron
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Billy
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Someone please answer my questions. I believe that they are worth exploring. If they are not, please tell me why. In case you have come late, let me list them, again.
1. Where do pre-tribulationalists see a break in the flow of many prophetic that allows for such a sudden and drastic switch in interpretation methods to be used in the span of one chapter? I explain what I mean by this in my earlier post (on the Pastor Hagee thread).
2. Also, could you explain to me how this method of interpreting prophecy lines up with Deuteronomy 18?
3. Thirdly, can you explain to me why God would choose to have two flocks (the church and the Jewish race), when it so obviously contradicts the New Testament, as I pointed out in my last post?
4. Furthermore, could someone explain to me how the political zeal of Zionism to see war take place in the middle east is at all biblical?
5. Fifthly, can someone explain to me how all this fervor surounding end times prophecy is permissible in light of Amos 5?
6. Sixthly, if we really loved the Jews, wouldn't we be sharing the love of Christ with them, instead of encouraging them to go into battle with their neighbors and be killed? In case you have forgotten, the majority of modern day Israelis openly admit to being atheists, and the rest have not accepted Christ as their Savior, without which they have no hope of being saved.
7. Finally, where is Christ in all of this? It seems to me that he has been put in the backseat in the minds of many Zionists that are more concerned with an earthly kingdom, when their supposed Savior said that His kingdom was not of this world. Rendor unto Caezar, man.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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