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Topic: Megachurch John Hagee:Hitler did God's Work
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yahsway
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posted
Ezekiel 37 enough said!
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Billy
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And scripture plainly, and unmistakably says that they will re-establish themselves as a nation (parable of the fig tree)...
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It must take some kind of extra spiritual insight to see a re-establishment of the nation of Israel in the parable of the fig tree. This is backed up by a historical interpretation of Bible prophecy. In none of the early church father's, or even the reformer's, writings do you find the idea that Bible prophecy pointed toward a re-establishment of Israel. That interpretation of scripture is less that 150 years old.
Plainly reading the parable of the fig tree, in context with the rest of Matthew 23&24, I don't see it anywhere. What I do see is Jesus warning first century Jews of a near future event that will have apocalyptic implications. I say near future, because of Matthew 24:34. Jesus tells them that their generation would not pass away until these things take place.
There is no reason for Jesus to warn His generation of followers of an event that would not take place until two millenia had passed, anyway. Not only is it illogical, but it does not fit the Biblical criteria for prophecy set forth in Deuteronomy 18. Even for prophecies regarding the end of the world, there must be a near future fulfillment that confirms the legitimacy of the ultimate fulfillment of said prophecy. Otherwise, the generation that is being address is ordered, by mandate of the Lord, to cast aside such prophecies and stone the prophets that make them, as false prophets.
You asked me where I'm coming from with all this. Josephus Tacitus, a first century, Jewish historian, wrote a detailed account of the seize and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, by the Roman Empire. In his depiction, he couldn't have come any closer to describing the fulfillment of the Matthew 24 prophecy, if he was a student studying under Christ, Himself. On the contrary, Josephus was a Jew, and knew only vaguely about the miracle worker named Jesus. Without a doubt, I believe that the near future fulfillment of Matthew 24 happened in AD70, when Jerusalem was destroyed, along with the temple.
As I've said before, I don't believe that this is a doctrine that will save or condemn someone in their sins. Essential Christian doctrine typically surfaces in the framework of the major Biblical concepts of salvation, sanctification, regeneration and the like. However, I do believe that, when you have an overly political pastor that is working to affect foreign policy, he'd better have a proper understanding of the prophesy he's using to meet his goals.
For me, I have a major problem with pastors putting such an extreme emphasis on politics, anyway. Where's the gospel? Where's the blood? Where's the emphasis on evangelism? The matters of the end times are important, but more important, I think, is the matter of personal salvation.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Michael Harrison
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I don't know if that was 'in Christ', Billy?
But this is a capitol statement:
quote:
The disciples were steeped in this tradition, and this is why they never understood any of the sayings of Jesus, until He had ascended and the Holy Spirit descended.
I like the part where it says that "they never understood any of the sayings of Jesus until He had ascended, [b]and the Holy Spirit descended.[b/] Here is a Kingly, and Priestly argument for the visitation of the Holy Spirit upon the believing individual. For He brings with Him, the revelation of Himself, which the carnal mind cannot attain to by any amount of study, or effort. There is a revelation of Spiritual things accompaning this visitation, which I admonish that no man should be without.
Capitol!
Now! Were do you get this stuff from? How many Jews could have been saved? No more than were. Of course there are saved Jews. But by and large, Israel as a nation will not be saved until the fullness of the gentiles is in. At that point, as far as I can tell, it will only be a third of them, then!
And scripture plainly, and unmistakably says that they will re-establish themselves as a nation (parable of the fig tree), and that they will come from the four corners of the earth to return to the land. So what is the problem with Hagee here? My only problem with this is that they are marching to their death, if you look at the fact that Antichrist is coming. And scripture says, "pray that your flight not be in the day time;" and "come off of the roof, and do not bother with your belongings." On and on! It is going to be a sad day.
Where are you coming from?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Billy
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There is a major flaw in your supposal about the Jewish people. So, the premise is that Jewish people cannot come to Jesus, because they don't see Him? And what if they do see Him as the Messiah of the Old Testament? What does that do to your supposal?
Acts 2:5 says, "Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven."
When Peter preached to them, it says that they were pierced to the heart. After he further explained the gospel, 3,000 of them were saved. Not only that, but many modern scholars believe the early church in Jerusalem to have been upwards of 30,000 strong. That's a lot of Jews that came to Christ after Jesus He lamented over Jerusalem. In fact, His lament over Jerusalem can only be applied to end times theology when handled extremely carelessly, and taken wildly out of context.
This also doesn't account for the many Messianic Jews that exist, today. It also does not account for our understanding that Christ came and died for all men. Furthermore, in exhortation to evangelize the world we are told that the gospel is "for the Jew first, then for the Greek." How can this be so, if the Jews were given a gospel account in which Jesus is preached as the Messiah? Have you read Matthew? The book is written to the Jews and is riddled with evidences of how Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophesy.
And yes, I do have some understanding of the first century misconceptions surrounding the Messianic prophecies. Those who mishandled scripture to make it say what they wanted it to say. Those that took Old Testament prophecy and interpreted it to say that there would be an earthly kingdom established with an earthly king. They were called zealots. The disciples were steeped in this tradition, and this is why they never understood any of the sayings of Jesus, until He had ascended and the Holy Spirit descended.
When Peter said that he would not allow Jesus to be killed, why do you think he said it, and why do you think Jesus replied by saying, "Get behind me, Satan!"? Jesus, Himself, proclaimed that His kingdom was not of this world. He also accused the scribes and Pharisees of misinterpreting scripture and adding their own traditions which were an abomination. Why? You wouldn't put new wine in old wine skins, or sew a new patch into an old garment would you?
What was being taught in the first century was heresy, and that anyone would use that heresy to try to make the claim that Jesus did not come to save Jews until a millennial reign that is supposed to happen 2,000 years later is just as heretical. Do you know how many Jews could have been saved over the past 2,000 years had this misinterpretation not been applied to the Bible? Do you know how many could have come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?
Instead, Pastor Hagee is raking in money to give to Jews that are willing to move to Jerusalem, a land that housed many Christian arabs and many Christian churches before it was invaded by the Jews during the Seven Day War and they were forced from their homes, because they were arabs. And to what end does Pastor Hagee continue to herd Jews into the promised land? He believes that he is helping to bring about Armageddon, a war in which his eschatology states that 2/3 of the jewish people will be killed within the walls of Jerusalem.
He believes that they will die there, yet he's paying them money to move there. The sad thing is that, though this seems more anti-Jew than anything that I've ever heard come from a "Christian" leader, if you say anything against the teachings of Pastor Hagee, you are automatically accused of being anti-semitic. Well, I for one believe what the Bible says when it tells us that Jesus came to save all men. First the Jews, then the gentiles.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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yahsway
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I need to correct something in my previous post.
Notice it says "You will not see Me again UNTIL you say Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.
It does NOT say they will see Him First and then say it.
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yahsway
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So far i cannot find in scripture where Yeshua claims to have come to "be a Messiah of Israel"
He does tell Piolet however that He is a King
He does tell Ciaphas that he Is The Messiah
he told the woman at the well
And his disciples
But His first coming was not to come to be their Messiah, (Messiah meaning in that era to be a political ruler) but to be the Sufferring Servant, to Lay down His life, not only for Israel but for whomsoever will.
The Jews had no concept of that kind of Messiah because "cursed is he that hangs on a tree"
You need to do a word study on how the word Messiah has been used since the beginning of time.
In the OT, priests, kings, dignitaries were referred to as messiahs. Its not until Daniel till you get the term Messiah as being the future King.
Yeshua came to also build His kingdom, He told Pilot that it was "for this cause that He came into the world". Remember, His kingdom is not of this world. And flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God.
He came the first time as Messiah ben Joseph or the Sufferring Servent.
He will return as Messiah ben David The Coming King
Remember that it was God that blinded the Jews of this fact so that the Gentiles could be brought in.
God did the blinding.
Paul says that we as Gentiles obtain mercy because of their (the Jews) disobediance For God has committed them all to disobediance, that He might have mercy on all.
So, the Jewish people can not be held liable as you say because the blinding and disobediance has been done by God for the other nations sake.
But know this, Yeshua said "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem.... you shall NOT see me again UNTIL you say
Baruch Ha Ba BaShem Adonai
Blessed Is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.
Notice it says you will not see Me UNTIL you say this
It does not say you will say this and then see Me.
So there is coming a day soon when Israel will call on Him and then He will come.
Until then we are instructed to pray for the peace of Jerusalem,
Remember, "For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life, life from the dead?
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Billy
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I wasn't asserting that God had "forgotten" His promise to Israel. The emphasis really should be on the question "What were the stipulations that God set forth in His promises to Israel?"
John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, `We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire," in Matthew 3:8-10.
God's promise to Israel was not based on race or nationality. God is neither a racist or a patriot. God's promise to Israel was based on faith. You can see that this notion is very prevalent in the passages that you site...
"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God"
What is the meaning of the term, holy? It means; set apart; without blemish; faithful; just. Can you say that about the current, predominantly atheist state of Israel? Of course not. If God was saying that their holiness was based on ethnicity or nationality, He would ensure that the race or the nation remained in a constant state of holiness.
In stark contrast to this, you see that God does turn His back on the nation of Israel, throughout the Old Testament. However, there is always a remnant of the "faithful." These are the ones that would go on to restore the nation and enjoy the blessings of God.
In order to arrive at the viewpoints that lead to the eschatalogical doctrines held by Hagee and his ilk, one must be willing to take use imaginative, eisegetical leaps in their interpretation of scripture. One must accept the methods of biblical interpretation used by such pastors at face value and without question. Furthermore, you would have to be able to somehow convince yourself that it is okay that such pastors make statements that slap traditional Christian doctrine in the face.
Was it not Pastor John Hagee that made the claim that Jesus never claimed to have come to be a Messiah to the people of Israel? After making this ridiculous claim, did he not also assert that, because He never claimed to be their Messiah, the people of Israel could not be held liable for not accepting Him as such? Such comments fit perfectly into the theological framework touted by Hagee, as well as his many "political" interests.
I have no interest in attacking the character of my fellow Christians. However, false doctrine and political motives amongst the leaders of the church were never tolerated in the New Testament. I am not against Hagee, as a person, but I am fearful of the influence that his teachings might have on the church, today.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Betty Louise
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Billy,
Have you read the New Testament, yourself. No where does it say that God has forgotten His promise to Israel.
God chose Israel to be His people. It is not about them being better then others, but about God choosing them.
Deuteronomy 7:6 says, "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession."
Exodus 19:5 and 6: "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people. For all the earth is mine: and you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation".
Deuteronomy 7:7, 8: "The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors."
Has Israel’s disobedience changed God’s opinion of her? No Even after Israel did not obey the Bible said this: Zechariah the prophet could still write to the people of Judah: "Thus said the LORD of hosts . . . he who touches you touches the apple of his eye" (Zechariah 2:8).
God’s promise for Israel still stands today. "I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid . . . God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Romans 11:1, 2). "Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25).
When the Church age is finished, God will again focus His attention on Isarel. The 144 thousand who will testify of Jesus during the tribulation will come from Israel.
Rev 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
When Jesus returns, I am talking about the Second Coming; He will stand not in America but in Jerusalem.
Zec 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
God is the Potter, we are the clay. He has the right to choose the people He chooses to be His people. We do not have the right to complain about His choice.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Michael Harrison
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2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
Still, John can say what he believes. The trouble is that no one can say anything without some activist stepping up and trying to shout them down. It is a divisive tool of the devil, even though I take your post under advisement, Billy.
I can take this and run with it:
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Or take this:
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Because:
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
But this:
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Anyone of any faith can use this against someone else. And in any forum, someone can persistantly persecute another on this basis, rather than simply making their point. For anyone can 'accuse'. Anyone can deride. Anyone can mock. So if you band to gether, and recognize one another who are in the group as the ones 'in the know', you can execute judgment based on your conviction as detailed above and thereby be segregated into such a group seemingly licensed to assail another. It would be good for them to be right if they do this; for it will be part of their judgment. So let the confident carry on.
The proof is in whether what whoever says serves their own bellyor not. That is what the onlooker has to determine.
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Billy
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The apostles argued diligently against those that preached heresy, in their day. They even went so far as to name names. There is nothing in the Bible that says that any professing man of God is beyond reproof. It says the exact opposite. It is foolish to reprove a fool, but a wise man delights in receiving discipline. Though we should not judge the lost, by man's standards, we should actively strive to hold each other to God's standard. I've noticed that many of those that use the pulpit to preach heresy, false gospels, political propaganda and racial division often pull the "How dare you speak against a man of God" card. It's much easier to use this dodge than to stand in the line of fire and debate the hard topics.
That being said, there are two questions that I'd like to hear John Hagee answer, in his lifetime.
1. Does he think it was God's will for Palestinian (Arab) Christians to be displaced from Jerusalem, and their churches to be uprooted, during the seven day war, just because the Jews saw them as hethen gentiles that did not deserve to share their land?
2. How can an unbelieving, largely atheistic nation, such as Israel, be considered (as Hagee considers them) to be God's chosen people, even though they have rejected the doctrine of the Trinity, the deity of Christ and most importantly, the death of Christ on the cross? Has he read the New Testament?
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Michael Harrison
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I have a problem with Donnie Swaggart after seeing him on my TV today. I do not understand why he finds it necessary to pick on other Christians who are preaching Christ. Even Paul said that "Nevertheless, Christ is preached." I tried to communicate this to him when I was down there. It brings a reproach on the message of Christ as the life of the believer which he expresses as "The Way of the Cross." It isn't necessary. In fact it is wrong!
If you have the truth, speak it! It isn't necessary to tell everybody that so-and-so is doing it all wrong. Even Jesus Himself said that
Joh 8:15 "Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."
Joh 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
We will all find out if you have the truth in due time (if we cannot already tell).
And what about John Hoagie? (I call him that affectionately because he looks like he goes out to "Steak and Hogie" after service every day.) LOL! His message today was full of humor. It was well delivered.
I have not met a pastor, from whom I cannot learn something if I humble myself. I don't care who he is. Yet, if I go listen to him with an attitude, I am sure beyond a shadow of doubt that I miss something. I don't even care if he is slightly off kilter even. My God sees to it that I miss something if I do not listen humbly. It it His wisdom. Amen? Amen!~
Amen/.
"When thou art bidden to a feast, take not the high room, lest someone more important than thee arrive, and thee be bidden to drop down a few rooms."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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yahsway
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Actually it might surprise some of you that this is the topic in most conversations in Israel today.
I often talk with a Jewish man on skype who lives in Israel and he admits that 70% of Israel is secular and they dont talk about religon ectt.. But
He just recently said to me and hubby that if it had not been for the holocaust in his (and many other Jews) opinons the state of Israel would not exist. Most of them agree with Hagee that as bad as that time was, it was the main reason they now have a homeland.
I dont think Hagee meant that God actually did it, but that He Allowed it to happen.
Reminds me of that scripture that says His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.
God took that horrible event and turned it around for good for the Jewish people.He brought them back from the 4 corners of the earth to the land He promised their fathers and they became a nation in one day.
And make no mistake about it, if they were today to give up all the land of Israel to the Palastenians and arab neighbors, that still would not be enough. The enemies of the Jews want them Dead. They want to drive them into the sea so that their name is no longer on the face of the earth.
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in him
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John Hagee means well but sometimes he goes over board
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Michael Harrison
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"Let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing."
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Pathwalker
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Now that puts the icing on the cake! Do you know that to this very day, Gremany is teaching there students that the " Holocaust", never happened! Also that Hitler was a Saint. This is what is in there German History books. My grandson is over there at this very moment. I just cant believe that these people are in denial. Someone ought to sit Hagee down and explain to him the difference between Good and evil. This was not God's doing, this is cleary the act of the Devil himself.
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Psalm 119:105 " Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path"
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WildB
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Evangelical John Hagee asserts that Hitler was doing God's work by shepherding the Jews to Palestine ...
Quote:
John Hagee, the controversial evangelical leader ... argued in a late 1990s sermon that the Nazis had operated on God's behalf to chase the Jews from Europe and shepherd them to Palestine. According to the Reverend, Adolph Hitler was a "hunter," sent by God, who was tasked with expediting God's will of having the Jews re-establish a state of Israel.
Going in and out of biblical verse, Hagee preached: "'And they the hunters should hunt them,' that will be the Jews. 'From every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.' If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the holocaust you can't see that."
He goes on: "Theodore Hertzel is the father of Zionism. He was a Jew who at the turn of the 19th century said, this land is our land, God wants us to live there. So he went to the Jews of Europe and said 'I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel.' So few went that Hertzel went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the holocaust.
"Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/21/mccain-backer-hagee-said_n_102892.html
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That is all.....
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