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Topic: Megachurch John Hagee:Hitler did God's Work
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yahsway
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posted
Thank you Billy for your post. Im glad you understand why some Christians Celebrate the Feast.
As far as evangelizing the Jewish people, there are over 130 Messianic assemblies i Israel right now.
I have several friends living there now and who also not only evangelize, but live there and help out building grape orchards in the North (Ariel)
They are the Waller family from TN. I used to sinf with them.
Here is their website. www.HaYovel.com
They help in serving Israels farmers.
Tommy and Sherri Waller are not only giving the gospel but also their time and talants to the Jewish people.
I hope you go to their site and see what is happening now thru their ministry.
Shalom
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Billy
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On feasts and Jewish customs, let us give grace unto one another...
Romans 15:5
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
The overriding theme, in this passage, is that whatever we do, we do it for the Lord. If we celebrate the feasts, and we are doing so for the Lord, and not some custom or tradition, we are correct in doing so. If we choose not to celebrate the feasts, yet we serve the Lord, we are also correct in doing so. So, in as much as you are celebrating the feasts for the sole purpose in mind of serving the Lord, Yahsway, you are correct in doing so. If you don't celebrate the feasts, as Aaron and I choose not to, yet you serve the Lord, you are also correct. Paul's exhortation is that we do not divide over it.
That being said, if we believe that the Law is a valid means of justification for Jewish people, we stand corrected by the scripture.
Romans 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another - to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
So we see that the feasts are optional, and the law cannot redeem. So what do we have from the Jewish people that is of benefit to us? Only the fact that God used them in order that He might to bring the scriptures and the Messiah to us. None of this can be attributed to the Jewish people, as a whole, however. It is only the faithful remnant that have allowed for the Holy Spirit to work through them to that He might pen the scriptures. It was the choice of God, not man, that Christ would be born through the line of Judah, and it was not on the merit of Judah's bloodline, for we see harlots and evil kings throughout the earthly lineage of Jesus. It was by the grace of God, alone, that Christ came through the line of Judah, in order that prophecy could be fulfilled.
I do believe all non-Christians Jews to be evil, but only as much as I believe all non-Christian men and women to be evil. Jesus said that there is only One who is good. Thus, if we do not have Christ living in and through us, we are evil. All of us! And as much as you may not like it, that includes non-Christian Israelis. Thus, we do them no favors when we patronize them and cater to their unbelief. We must firmly and unapologetically present them with the gospel, regardless of how much it may offend them. We must reveal to them that pastor Hagee is wrong! Jesus did come to be their Messiah, and His offer still stands!
I accuse no one. It is not my intent to offend or judge. I only am speaking what is already laid out in the scriptures, but I do speak from a heart of passion. But it is a Christ centered passion. We need to seek to plant seeds in Israel. Seeds that we can water, and that the Lord can make grow. That the nation would come to repentance and faith in their Messiah, Jesus Christ. Stop sending money, and start sending Bible tracts. Stop sending missiles and start sending Bibles. Stop sending politicians and start sending missionaries. This is compassion. This is love. What we are doing now is antisemitism, because we do not concern ourselves with their eternal well-being.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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yahsway
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Aaron, I agree with all that you have said. But history does speak volumes of how the Church has treated the Jews down thru the Church age.
As far as the Feasts of Yahweh God, whats wrong with celebrating them? We are celebrating His death, His shed lood for us, and 3 days later is the Feast of fistfruits, His Resurrection. Then 50 days later is Shavout(Pentecost) in which we also celebrate His giving of the Holy Spirit.
And why would people celebrate His birth(Christmas) when He already was born 2000 years
ago? (In answer to your question about why some Christians celebrate Passover)
When Celebrating a Passover seder as a believer, you are suppose to see yourself as if you are personally being redeemed from a type of Egypt(Sin and this world)
In Exodus 13:8 it is commanded that you shall show your son "in that day(future) saying, This is done because of that which the Lord did unto me (past) when I (personally) came forth out of Egypt."
In 1st Corinth. 10:1-4, Paul reminds the followers of Jesus to have the mindset that they and their fathers were redeemed from Egypt..
In Exodus 15:1 it says "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel" and said "I will sing" (future).
This reminds us that there will be a future redeemption to come that will be like the historical Egyptian redeemption. Those redeemed in this future redeemption will sing the song of Moses AND the song of the Lamb (Rev 15:3)
The God of Israel gave Passover to His people so we could understand the death of Jesus on the tree during His 1st coming, as well as understand our personal spiritual salvation in Jesus from Pharoah and Egypt (Who are likened to satan and the kingdom of sin and darkness).
It is also likened to when He comes and ransoms us. Our future redeemption. The Rabbis also call this Feast the "Feast of Our Freedom" and we know whom the Son sets free is free indeed.
You see Passover was not only a forshadow of Christ, it also has a future ramification. Yeshua said at the Last Passover seder to His disciples that He would not drink of the cup of Praise(The 4th cup in the Passover seder) until He drank it anew in the Future kingdom.
There are 4 different Passovers mentioned in the gospel of John.
The first is in John 2:13-17 Here Jesus finds the temple being defiled with money changers. He declares "My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer. (Mark 11:17)
The spiritual application for the church is this:
The believers in Jesus are Gods temple and we are not to defile it with sin.
The 2nd passover feast is recorded in John 5:1-15
Although the particular feast is not specifically mentioned here, we know that it is either Passover, Pentecost or Tabernacles because Jesus went up to Jerusalem to observe it.
By knowing what Jesus did in these passages and what the feasts teach us, the evidence suggest it was Passover.
This passover reveals Jesus as Healer of mens bodies and souls; the forgiver of sin; and the healer of disease.
In the OT Passover, Israel was to feed upon the body of the lamb. as they did, they were saved from the destruction of Egypt and their bodies were healed (Ex 12:13, Psalm 105:26, 36-37)
The healing is associated with Passover, and at this passover, Jesus healed an impotent man.
The 3rd Passover in John is 6:1-13
At Passover the children of Israel ate the flesh of the lamb, sprinkled the blood on the door, and ate unleavened bread.
Thus the bread and the lambs body were eaten by all at Passover. In these passages Jesus is the Bread of Life, the unleavened bread, and the heavenly manna.
the 4th passover in John is Jesus's sacrifical death on the tree. He is the Lamb of God and the Unleavened bread, dying despite having never sinned.
So in the book of John in the first passover, Jesus is the Temple Cleanser (the spiritual temple is the physical body). In the 2nd Passover, Jesus is the healer of the body and soul. In the 3rd Passover Jesus is the Bread of Life. In the 4th Passover Jesus is the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the whole world.
And this is why many messianic Jews and Christians celebrate Passover. Its a remembrence of what He did for us and what He will do in the future when He takes us with Him and spares us of Gods wrath thats coming on the earth.
The feasts of Yahweh God are not just past tense but also hold future tense as well.
Yes, Jesus fullfills them which means the Feast of God are "complete" in Him.
And I believe this is why we read in Leviticus 23
And the Lord spoke to Moses saying,
"Speak to the children of Israel and say to them: 'The Feasts of the Lord which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are MY feasts.
The English word Feast in verse 2 in Hebrew is mo-ed meaning "an appointment, a fixed time or season, a cycle or year, an assembly, a set time, exact time.
God is telling us that He is ordaining a "set time or exact time or an appointed time" when He has an appointment with humanity to fulfill certain events in the redeemption.
In fact Jesus came to earth at the exact time ordained by God (Gal 4:2,4) AND God has an exact time or set appointment when, in the future, He will judge the world (Acts 17:31)
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
The Jews ask, "Was Jesus a false Messiah?" No one can be the true Messiah whose followers feel compelled to hate, murder, rob, and rape for 2000 years and then brazenly proclaim "We are the people of God."
Some here need to go and study what some professing Christians did to the Jews in the name of Jesus and God. Also study and read what a lot of the church Fathers had to say about the Jews. Hateful speech indeed.
I've seen no one advocate such hate here. Indeed, such hate is Satanic. But we must be careful to only desire the truth and not go beyond it to compensate for the evil of men.
Compensatory history is often overlooked if the evil for which it compensates was reprehensible. This is like saying "the blacks built the pyramids" in an effort to assuage the sin of slavery. Slavery is wrong. But so is lying.
We are called to love the Jews, not be as they are/were. Another way we can say this: are are called into Christ Jesus the Son of God, not into Jesus the Jew.
Aaron
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Aaron
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Of course the OT is important as is all scripture.
But
Why would any Christian celebrate the Passover Feast when the THE Passover Lamb has arrived and now lives in them?
Why spend time with a prophesy when the reality thereof is in your midst and indeed within you?
Why hold on to hope when the thing you hoped for has been fulfilled?
Is God done with the Jews? Certainly not! Has God overlooked the Jews? Certainly not! According to God they are beloved which is no stretch when we consider that "God so loved the world...". But, according to the gospel they are enemies and stand in need of redemption.
So don't copy their ways, don't emulate them, don't revere them above any other ethnic group. Love them as God loves them, as God so loved the world. Being "more Jewish" will gain nothing for the Christian for their Lord is a priest in the Order of Melchizedek: One "without father, without mother, without descent...". Not a Jew but, rather, the Son of God Himself.
Aaron
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yahsway
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Zeena, I am not talking about Circumcision. sheesh!
AND, Im not saying you must obey Gods laws for salvation.
Your reading to much into what i have posted.
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yahsway
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Billy, the OT was already Cannon.
Constantine Council was about the epistles (letters) written for the NT cannon.
What i am saying is there would be no Christianity if there were no God fearing Israelits from the start.
God chose the Jewish people to bring forth His word the Torah(which by the way, It means Teaching, Instructions, laws)
I am not arguing against the Bible, I am arguing for the Whole Bible, both old and New. Thats my point.
You cant have the NT without the old. Jesus himself quoted the Book of Duet over 32 times, Paul quoted from it.
Paul even told Timothy that scripture was good for correction, reproof, doctrine. Do You think Paul was talking about a NT cannon that had not even been put together yet? It wasnt even put together until some 300 years after Christ went back to Heaven.No, Paul was speaking of the only Scriptures they had at that time which was the Old Test.
The Feasts do not "take way" from Jesus. They are about Jesus. They are Gods Moedims, meaning His appointed times. I know many Christians who celebrate Passover, Pentecost, Succot and there is nothing wrong with that. They are celebrations of what God has done and is going to do. Study about the Feasts.
Also, the Apostle Paul states that before the Jews brought the gospel to the Gentiles, the Gentiles walked in total spiritual darkness
Eph 2:2-14
"At that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall od separation."
The Jews ask, "Was Jesus a false Messiah?" No one can be the true Messiah whose followers feel compelled to hate, murder, rob, and rape for 2000 years and then brazenly proclaim "We are the people of God."
Some here need to go and study what some professing Christians did to the Jews in the name of Jesus and God. Also study and read what a lot of the church Fathers had to say about the Jews. Hateful speech indeed.
Yes we are saved by faith and by His grace. I do not argue that. What gets me riled up is the arrogace and prideful way that some Christians compare themselves to the Jews. They are still Gods people. And there is coming a day when they will turn and look upon the one who was pierced and mourn as one mourns for an only son.
They will Know Him. But at His appointed time.Not ours
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Aaron
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Of all things that are righteous I give thanks to my Father in Heaven, alone.
Aaron
Edit: P.S. Wellll, I guess Billy already said that. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Zeena
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You go Billy! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Acts 15:10 [edited]
Now YAHSWAY why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Billy
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quote:
What have the Jews(Judaism) brought to the Christians?
It was Judaism that gave us the patriarchs, the prophets, the Scripture, and our Lord...
...It was traditional Judaism that believed man was created in Gods image.
It was traditional Judaism that gave us the concepts of heaven, hell, angels, devils, the acceptance of Adam and Eve as the 1st man and woman, the creation of the world in 7 days, even its age, 4000 years.
It was Judaism that gave us love and respect for life, while the pagan religons sacrificed their own children to foreign gods.
It was Judaism that gave us the Lords supper, which is a part of the Passover Celebration, commemorating the breaking of bread and taking the communion cup.
Funny. I attribute all these to God, as do the scriptures which were inspired by God. The way you talk, the Jews just made all this stuff up, and God had nothing to do with. Reading this reminds me of every History Channel special that I've ever seen on Judaism or Christianity where they attribute everything to man and tradition while attempting to rule God out of the equation.
quote:
that is until Constantine made it illegal in an effort to Seperate Jews from Gentiles.
I'm going to need to see historical evidence that this was in fact the motivation behind Constantine's ruling. See, many people (like Dan Brown The Da Vinci Code) try to claim that Constantine's councils were an attempt to change Christianity to fit his idea for what it should look like. Traditional Christianity teaches something much different. Throughout church history, it has been understood that Constantine's councils only dealt with what was already commonplace in Christianity.
Here are just a few things that were determined by Constantine's councils...
1. What books were already being accepted as inspired, and thus fit into the canon of scripture? This is how we got our modern canon of scripture. This is where we disagree with Dan Brown and his ilk about the councils of Constantine.
2. Had Jesus' deity always been accepted, by the church and in the gospel accounts? Yes. This is where we disagree with the Jehovah's Witnesses about the councils of Constantine.
3. Had the church always accepted Sunday worship as valid, and is there scriptural evidence for it? Yes. This is where we disagree with the Seventh Day Adventists about Constantine's councils.
All of the people that I've mentioned, above, have tried to say that Constantine purposely altered traditional Christianity, and what we have now is a sham. The church has traditionally sided with Constantine, on these matters. To not side with him now, because it fits your argument, causes me to have more doubts about your sources than my own. Therefore, I'd like to know your sources, and I'd like to know where they are getting their information.
quote:
Without the Jewish contribution to Christianity, there would be No Christianity.
This is blasphemy. God would find a way to redeem the world, regardless of whether or not Judaism had ever existed. However, He chose to use the Jewish people as the vessel by which He delivered His Son into the world and brought redemption to humanity. This is what the Old Testament is all about. It all points to Jesus. God is, in essence, setting up a prophetic line through which He could deliver His Son into the world in order that He might redeem it.
It is the Old Testament prophecies that validate Jesus' claims. It's the Old Testament Law (Torah) that gives us an idea of what God expects of us, as Christians. It is the account of creation and the garden of Eden, in Genesis, that allows us to understand what the new heaven and new earth will be like. Without God using the Jewish people (not the other way around) we would have no concept of these things.
quote:
Customs and traditions are just that. Christians have their own traditions and Customs. So why not the Jews?
The question is not whether Christians or Jews can have their own respective customs and traditions. This is not debated. What is debated, however, is whether there is any saving grace in them. Jesus said that no one could come to the Father, except through Him. This includes the Jewish people. Thus, no feast of the tabernacles, or any other feast, sacrifice, incense offering, etc. can take the place of Jesus.
Wait. I just thought of something. Are you arguing with Romans 4? Are you arguing against the Bible? Please tell me that you are not arguing against the Bible. If this is so, I can't continue this conversation. Without the authority of scripture, we have no common ground to start from. I'll wait for your reply.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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yahsway
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What have the Jews(Judaism) brought to the Christians?
It was Judaism that gave us the patriarchs, the prophets, the Scripture, and our Lord.
For that reason, Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth said "Salvation is Of the Jews".
It was traditional Judaism that believed man was created in Gods image.
It was traditional Judaism that gave us the concepts of heaven, hell, angels, devils, the acceptance of Adam and Eve as the 1st man and woman, the creation of the world in 7 days, even its age, 4000 years.
It was Judaism that gave us love and respect for life, while the pagan religons sacrificed their own children to foreign gods.
It was Judaism that gave us the Lords supper, which is a part of the Passover Celebration, commemorating the breaking of bread and taking the communion cup.
Early Christians celebrated Passover for 300 years after the death of Jesus- that is until Constantine made it illegal in an effort to Seperate Jews from Gentiles.
Every Word of the Tanakh (OT) was written by Jews.To sum up, the Jewish people gave Christianity the foundation of the Word of God.
Without the Jewish contribution to Christianity, there would be No Christianity.
The Jewish people do not need Christianity to explain their existence, but we cannot explain ours without our Jewish/Hebrew roots.
Customs and traditions are just that. Christians have their own traditions and Customs. So why not the Jews?
You can read about the Lords Feasts and festivals in Leviticus. And please notice no where does it say that they are "Jewish Feast" but rather God says they are His Feast. The Feast of the Lord. They are His appointed times.
Some of these feasts have been fulfilled in Jesus. 3 Have yet to be fulfilled. They are futuristic. They are appointed times of the Lord. His appointed times.
The Lord never commanded us to celebrate the Feast of Christmas and yet we do as our custom and tradition.
He never commanded us to celebrate Easter, but some do as their custom and feast unto the Lord.
But we say that those Jewish customs and traditions should be done away with when the Lord Himself said they were to be a Holy convocation (custom, feast to be practiced) Forever.
The teaching that the "Church is the new Israel" originated in the 1st century because Gentile converts resented the priority of the Jewish people in the economy of God. Arrogence and pride cause this theology of hate to flourish today.
It appeals to the ego to say "We are the only people of God!"
Replacement theology is not new. its an old heresy.
Ignatius of Antioch 70-170 presents the church as "the new Israel". He also protrayed the prophets and heros of the Israel as "Christians before their time" and NOT part of the Jewish religon.
Scripture teaches that the church (spiritual Israel) and National Israel exist side by side, and neither replaces the other.
Replacement theologians in America are preaching "that if Christians will Quit supporting Israel and will economically boycott the Christ-rejecting Jews, they will accept Christ."
This anti-Semitic logic defies and ignores both history and the bible.
The Crusaders economically attacked the Jews, robbed them of their last dime in the name of God. The Jews did not become Christians.
The Spanish Inquisition robbed the Jews of their wealth while the Roman Church and state split the plunder., again the Jews did not become Christians.
Adolf Htler brought economic ruin to them and finally killed the majority of them. The Jews did not become Christians then either.
After 2000 years of a loveless, godless, anti-semitc replacement theology that says the church is "the real Israel" thus denying the Jews their rightful place in Gods economy, they are not about to convert.
Shalom
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Billy
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quote:
Does Hagee give scriptural support for this statement?
Let me be transparent: I don't believe in replacement theology. But there are few things that get me riled up. One is the "New Judaism" that's creeping into and through the church: teachers promoting "Getting to know the Jewish Jesus" and implying that by knowing and doing the Jewish customs one will have a better relationship with God. Such teaching is Satanic.
Here's a good passage of scripture to chew on when considering this...
Romans 4
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised (Jewish Christians), or on the uncircumcised also (Gentile Christians)? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.
The redeeming quality of Abraham, in God's eyes was not his bloodline or the nations that would spring from him. The redeeming quality of Abraham was his faith. Thus, everything promised to him, whether through covenant or mere promise, was due to his faith. Paul makes the claim that the descendants of Abraham are his descendants according to faith and nothing else.
We should understand the Law and the customs of the Old Testament, but we should not practice them, for they have no saving grace. As Christians, we have as our foundation, the apostles, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone. They are our standard for what we understand to be the essentials. They are our standard for what we understand about God. They are the means by which we understand the Old Testament. And over and over again they warn us not to revert back to the Mosaic Law. There is nothing that saves, in it. Only by faith can we (Jews and Gentiles) be saved.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
Aaron,
I'd like to say that I really appreciate your wisdom and insight on this issue. I have never really heard it put like that, but it definitely makes sense, in light of the passages that you have presented. May the Lord bless you, and all that are on this board, as we further search for answers in His word.
In Christ,
Billy.
Bless you, brother.
I amended the post, just slightly, at the end of it. IMO, it's a clearer picture with the small addition.
Aaron
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Billy
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Aaron,
I'd like to say that I really appreciate your wisdom and insight on this issue. I have never really heard it put like that, but it definitely makes sense, in light of the passages that you have presented. May the Lord bless you, and all that are on this board, as we further search for answers in His word.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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I have already refuted your attempt to try to put me in the box that you label "Replacementism." I do not believe that God broke His covenant. I only believe that you and I have different understanding as to who true Israel is, and thus who is heir to the promises made to Abraham. Can someone please give me a Christian Zionist's exposition on Galatians 3 and Matthew 3?
I don't know how you can assume that the covenants have anything to do with racial or national Jews, in light of these passages. These passages clearly show how God is not concerned with their race or nationality, but their faith. Furthermore, this faith is in Yahweh, and since Jesus in Yahweh incarnate, all those that have faith in Him are heirs. Now, someone please answer these passages.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
And to quote John Hagee "Jesus is not coming back wearing a 3 piece suit. He will have a prayer shaw on, and Hes coming back a Jew. Shalom
Does Hagee give scriptural support for this statement?
Let me be transparent: I don't believe in replacement theology. But there are few things that get me riled up. One is the "New Judaism" that's creeping into and through the church: teachers promoting "Getting to know the Jewish Jesus" and implying that by knowing and doing the Jewish customs one will have a better relationship with God. Such teaching is Satanic.
Also, implying that Jesus will "come back a Jew" seems to fly in the face of
quote:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
and
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Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
Col 3:11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
Also, if Our Lord comes back wearing a prayer shawl it will not be a Levitical prayer shawl. He will be wearing the shawl of Melchizedek.
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Hbr 5:10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
Melchizedek was not a Jew. Yet, the entire Jewish race submitted to him through Abraham, their father.
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Hbr 7:6 but he (Melchizedek) whose genealogy is not derived from them (the Jews) received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
and
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Hbr 7:9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak,
Hbr 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
And just so we're clear on the principle here, the writer says this:
quote:
Hbr 7:7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the greater.
Jesus came as a Jew. True
But Jesus was glorified and will return as the Son of God, as High priest in the order of Melchizedek (not a Jew); One who has no lineage save from God, Himself.
Aaron
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yahsway
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There are 2 different blood covenants in the Bible. Replacement theologians say that "The Old Covenant must likewise be put to daeath. God cannot, will not, has never before and never will be in Covenant with more than One People.
But thats not what the Bible teaches.There are no less than 7 covenants made in the Old Test.
Here are some excerpts from John Hagees Book "In Defense of Israel"
Covenants are not to be confused with a vow. A Vow can be broken by certain conditions of revocation. A Covenant is Everlasting.
The first Covenant between God and Abraham, giving Abraham and his decendants the land of Israel forever.
The second was the shed blood of the Lamb of God removing the curse of sin from all humanity.
The land covenant is specific in Scriptures. From the Nile River to the Euphrates River and from the Persian peninsula to Asia Minor.
If God has broken this covenant as some replacement theologians are teaching, then what confiedence can we have that He will keep the blood covenant of the cross?
Both covenants were made by the same God.
The Abrahamic covenant was restricted to the seed (zera) of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This covenant established them (Israel) as a Nation and is "everlasting and unconditional.
It is contingent on Gods Faithfulness to Israel, NOT Israels faithfulness to God.
God said to Abraham 5 times in this covenant "I will" He never said to Abraham "You Must".
King David wrote in Psalms 89:30-37 that Gods covenant was unconditional. Read it please.
The pages of history are laden with the anguish of the Jews. God promised Israel that if they broke his statutes, his commandments, and his law, He would punish them with a rod and stripes.
They have passed under His rod of judgementthruout history but His unconditional covenant holds.
And God uses the sun and moon as witnesses that the covenant with the Jewish people stands FOREVER.
The prophets themselves rebut replacement theology.
If Israel as a nation had not been reborn, if the Jews had not returned to the land, if Israels cities had not been rebuilt, if Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) had not been occupied, if the trees that the Turks cut down had not been replanted, if agricultural accomplishments of Israel had not been miraculous, there would be a valid reason for every person to Doubt that the Word of God is true.
But the prophets of God declare His intention for the Jews of the world to Reinhabit Israel.
Is 43:5-6
Is 35:10
Is 61:4
Is 44:24,26
Ezekiel 28:25-26, 34:28-30, 11:17, 19
Jeremiah 30:18 31:10-12 30:3, 10 31:7-8
Zach 1:15-17
The Christian religon IS a Judaic/Christion religon. You cant have the New Test without the Old Test.
If the Old Test is DEAD as some teach, why are the 10 commands reconfirmed in the New Test? Jesus said "You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Matt 19:19) Where did He get that from?
Its a verbatim quote from Moses "YOu shall llove your neighbor as yourself" (Lev 19:18)
Paul reaffirms this in Romans 13:9 James echoes it as well James 2:8
The source of the NT teachings are from Moses and the Old Covenant, but according to replacement theology, the OT is supposed to be dead, useless and replaced.
God is dealing with 2 peoples. The Jews and the Christians. He has Covenants made with the Jews and with the Christians.
And God is not a liar that He should break His word.
Reolacement theologians have created a "crisis theory". It goes like this
"God had plan A and plan B for the ministry of Jesus while He was on earth. Plan A was for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel. Plan B was the cross of Valvary. Since the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, God had NO choice but to go to plan B, the crucifixon.
This is utter rubbish! First, it makes a Soverrign and almighty God Subject to the whims and choices of Man.
Second, the bible parades 3 witnesses before us (Simeon, John the Baptist, John the Revelator) who plainly state that Gods plan from the beginning was for Jesus to die.
Had Jesus not gone to the cross, Not ONE Gentile would ever come to redeemption.
End of Quote.
You see, God has placed the Jews back in their land. He has brought them back even in their Unbelief, because He has a plan. He wants to show the Nations that its His doing not the Jews doing.
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WildB
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"you guys"
ok Yea We guys are going to ban you for being a solder.
Not.
You go I go.
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That is all.....
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Billy
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The verses that you've pointed me to do not explicitly state that Jesus is coming back with the attire of a first century Jewish rabbi on. What His attire is, in the second coming, is of no importance anyway. His race is of even less importance. His bloodline was important for the first coming, to prove the Messianic prophecies to have truly been pointing to Him. Do you assume that Jesus will come and somehow He, as well as all the Israelis, will revert back to a system of Temple sacrifice when Jesus already paid for sins, once and for all, and the New Testament refers to Him as the Temple.
Jesus is the great fulfillment of all the types and shadows of the Old Testament. Jesus is the Great Sacrifice. We need no other. Jesus is the Temple. We worship neither hear nor there, but in His Spirit. Jesus is the fulfillment. Thus, why even hint that the Bible has anything to say about reverting back to a system that could only cover sins, not take them away? Why would anyone revert back to a law that leads to slavery and condemnation when we have the Law of Grace which leads to eternal life? Read Romans for more on this.
I realize that you guys don't view me as having much authority on this subject, because you don't know me, and I disagree with what you've "always been taught." I pray that one day you will read and pray over the scriptures that I've given you, in all the posts that I've left on this board. I've done my best to show you how I deal with the verses you've used to try to support your arguments. I even answered you on Zechariah 14. Then I saw that an entirely new post created, away from my answer to it, on Zechariah 14! And it made the exact same argument that I'd already responded to.
I will continue to respond, even if the passages that I give you go without response. And I don't mean that I give you a verse and then you give me one that you think is better or more authoritative. I have shown you grace in that I have told you how I deal specifically with the verses you've given me. I'd appreciate it if you'd show me the same grace. To one verse against another in an attempt to rule it out is to make the claim, however implicitly, that the Bible contradicts itself. This must not be done. We must deal with each verse as it stands alone. If we use other verses, it should be done only to show how the verse in question lends itself to the whole of scripture. It's called contextualizing, a concept I have modeled for you in nearly every post in which I respond to your "proof" texts.
I look forward to your response.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Kindgo
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Billy,
I think people should know the difference between Israel and the Church. I don't understand how that is just not plain as day to everyone that reads the Bible..
Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an *** , and a colt the foal of an *** .
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
sa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an *** , and upon a colt the foal of an *** .
Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed [be] the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
Luk 23:3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest [it].
Luk 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Jhn 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Psa 45:11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he [is] thy Lord; and worship thou him.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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"Wow. What verse is that?!?"
King of Jews (KJV)
Matt.2
[2] Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Matt.27
[11] And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
[29] And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
[37] And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Mark.15
[2] And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
[9] But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
[12] And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
[18] And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
[26] And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Luke.23
[3] And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.
[37] And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
[38] And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John.18
[33] Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
[39] But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
John.19
[3] And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
[19] And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
[21] Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
King of Israel (KJV)
Matt.27
[9] Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
[42] He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
Mark.15
[32] Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
John.12
[13] Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Answer
The terms 'Jew' and 'Israel' are entirely synonymous in the context as they are merely different names for the same people. Different writers used these interchangeable terms at different times as it suited them, with no particular significance in mind, as quoted above.
Jesus is a jew, He is the King of the Jews.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Billy
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quote:
The only problem i have Billy is that being a Jew is not an "ethnic race", but a Religon.
Ask the atheists in Jerusalem if they are not Jews.
quote:
For example, you have Italian Jews, Irish Jews, Black Jews, Arab Jews, Chinese Jews ect..
There is a difference between those that adhere to the doctrines of Judaism and those that claim to be of the bloodline of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, using their claims to say that God has given them permission to force Arab Christians from their homes in Jerusalem and cause unrest in the entire region.
Now just how do the doctrines of Judaism differ from Christianity? As R.C. Sproul put it, they believe in a different god, entirely! They will affirm this. Their god is one god in one person. Our God is One God in Three eternally distinct Persons. Their Jesus is a prophet and a good teacher. Our Jesus is God the Son (which is blasphemy to them, by the way). Let me be blatantly honest about something. If Jesus is not God in your life, God is not in your life!
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Thats why in the Bible in Biblical times a Gentile was a "Heathen". He could be white, black, brown of many different "races"
So, are you saying that those that don't adhere to Judaism, today are heathens, yet God has accepted them (heathens), because of Christ? Or are they true Israel, because they have faith in Yahweh, Who revealed Himself through Christ?
"Being Jewish meant you worshipped only One God not many as the Heathen/pagans did."
And that's exactly what they believe the doctrine of the Trinity is; a heathen concept.
quote:
But Jesus broke down the wall of pertition that seperated both. Making One New Man.
Jesus made it to where those that had not come into the circumcision of the body, and under the law of Moses, could be saved by the law of grace and the circumcision of the heart. However, He did not only extend this to the uncircumcised, because He came to the Jew first.
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All the promises made to Israel have not been fulfilled yet. They dont even have all the land that was promised to Abraham, and yes, Abraham was NOT a Jew.
That's because the promise wasn't made to a 21st century secular state, but the people of a faith that had entered into a covenent relationship with Him. Read through it again. All God's covenents are subject to faith, not nationality or race.
quote:
Polictically speaking, Israel is no more secular than the United States. In fact they both are. You just happen to have Christans living in America,and you have Christians living in Israel, ect...
It is for this reason that we, as well as Israel, cannot lay claim to any promises made by God, as a whole, but this is besides the point. I have not tried to argue that America is heir to any promises made by God. God's promises have always been to the remnant. Those individuals that remain faithful through times of trial.
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At least when we help Israel in my opinon its better than when we helped Osama Ben Laden and Afganistan against the Russians, ect..
Help them to do what? Wage war or come to Christ? My only argument is that we should focus on doing the latter, with Muslims and Jews, and the former will take care of itself.
quote:
Also, Gentiles are "grafted in". The Old Covenant was not made with God and Gentiles but with God and Israel.
Galatians 3:13&14
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
You're right. The covenant was made with Abraham, that through his Seed (not seeds, plural), that is Jesus Christ, the entire world would be blessed. You're right. The Seed does inherit the land, according to the promise. But through Christ, we are all the heirs of the promises made to Abraham. We are all sons of Abraham who are in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 3:7-10
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, `We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Galatians 3:29
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
You're right about one thing. The covenant was made with Abraham and the promise to his descendants, but you are incorrect in what you believe qualifies one to be a descendant of Abraham, as these passages show.
quote:
And in the OT God says "I will make a NEW Covenant with the House of Judah and with the House of Israel.
Where are the Gentiles mentioned here?
The New Covenant was fulfilled through Jesus' blood, and it is to all men. First to the Jew and then to the Gentile. All scholars have historically agreed on this point.
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The New Covenant was made for the Jews. To the Jew first and then the Gentiles. The Gentiles are Grafted into the New covenant.
Wrong. All Christians are grafted into the tree of Israel, through the blood of Christ, through Whom we are free to say, "I am a son of Abraham, and heir to the promise God made to him."
quote:
Now its true about Ruth, Rahab ect.. But they joined themselves with Israel. "Your God shall be my God and YOUR PEOPLE my people".
This is true for Ruth. She came to faith in Yahweh, but she did not have a blood transfusion that magically made her of the line of Judah. She was Jewish in faith, ONLY. As far as the men of Nineveh, they stayed right where they were at and served the Lord, there. They did not become Jews, either. As far as Rahab, this is all we have to go on...
Joshua 6:25
25 However, Rahab the harlot and her father's household and all she had, Joshua spared; and she has lived in the midst of Israel to this day, for she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.
Which only suggests that they lived among the people of Israel, not that they became blood descendants of Abraham, which by the way is the claim that is being made by the Israelis, today. They claim that they, by their blood, are heirs of the land promised to their fathers. This is in stark contrast to Matthew 3:7-10.
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In fact, the Gentles coming to the faith were given things to abstain from by the Jerusalem council (Acts 15:19-21)
Acts 15:19-21
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the GENTILES, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
quote:
In other words, now those Gentiles can go and learn from the Scriptures about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and to learn about the prophe[c]ies of Yeshua(Jesus).
Okay. What does this have to do with anything? Are you trying to say that we, or the Jews that are in Christ, are still subject to the law of Moses? If so, you are in disagreement with the first half of Romans.
quote:
God is not thru with Israel. And to quote John Hagee "Jesus is not coming back wearing a 3 piece suit. He will have a prayer shaw on, and Hes coming back a Jew. Shalom
Wow. What verse is that?!?
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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yahsway
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No, THANK YOU Kindgo for your post. I especially thought you wise for your saying about Israel getting all the curses and the church the blessings.
My husband has said that very same thing for years now.
Thanks and Shalom Shalom
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Kindgo
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yahsway ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Oh..Thank you for your wise words!
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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yahsway
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Also, Gentiles are "grafted in". The Old Covenant was not made with God and Gentiles but with God and Israel.
And in the OT God says "I will make a NEW Covenant with the House of Judah and with the House of Israel.
Where are the Gentiles mentioned here?
The New Covenant was made for the Jews. To the Jew first and then the Gentiles. The Gentiles are Grafted into the New covenant.
Acts
Now its true about Ruth, Rahab ect.. But they joined themselves with Israel. "Your God shall be my God and YOUR PEOPLE my people".
In fact, the Gentles coming to the faith were given things to abstain from by the Jerusalem council (Acts 15:19-21
and they were also told
"For Moses has had thruout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
In other words, now those Gentiles can go and learn from the Scriptures about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and to learn about the prophesies of Yeshua(Jesus).
God is not thru with Israel. And to quote John Hagee "Jesus is not coming back wearing a 3 piece suit. He will have a prayer shaw on, and Hes coming back a Jew. Shalom
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yahsway
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The only problem i have Billy is that being a Jew is not an "ethnic race", but a Religon.
For example, you have Italian Jews, Irish Jews, Black Jews, Arab Jews, Chinese Jews ect..
Thats why in the Bible in Biblical times a Gentile was a "Heathen". He could be white, black, brown of many different "races"
To be Gentile in those days meant being a "Heathen/Pagan
Being Jewish meant you worshipped only One God not many as the Heathen/pagans did.
But Jesus broke down the wall of pertition that seperated both. Making One New Man.
All the promises made to Israel have not been fulfilled yet. They dont even have all the land that was promised to Abraham, and yes, Abraham was NOT a Jew.
Polictically speaking, Israel is no more secular than the United States. In fact they both are. You just happen to have Christans living in America,and you have Christians living in Israel, ect...
You have gays in America and in Israel
You have Muslims in Israel and in America
At least when we help Israel in my opinon its better than when we helped Osama Ben Laden and Afganistan against the Russians, ect..
Just food for thought.
Shalom
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Zeena
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Amen!
1 Chronicles 16:34 NIV
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
SING PRAISE!
SING PRIASE!
Luke 19:40 ASV
And he answered and said, I tell you that, if these shall hold their peace, the stones will cry out.
Psalm 103:8 NKJV
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
Jeremiah 33:11 AMP
[There shall be heard again] the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voices of those who sing as they bring sacrifices of thanksgiving into the house of the Lord, Give praise and thanks to the Lord of hosts, for the Lord is good; for His mercy and kindness and steadfast love endure forever! For I will cause the captivity of the land to be reversed and return to be as it was at first, says the Lord.
Romans 8:21-23 ASV
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Billy
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2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Amen!
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Zeena
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Amos 5:18
Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD ? That day will be darkness, not light.
Revelation 22:20
He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus.
Isaiah 30:18
And therefore will Jehovah wait, that he may be gracious unto you; and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for Jehovah is a God of justice; blessed are all they that wait for him.
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Billy
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"Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church."
In case you haven't been listening to me, I'd like to clarify that this is not at all what I have been saying. I don't believe that the church has replaced Israel, but rather that true Israel has always been the true people of God. A covenant relationship based on faith (Genesis 15), and not nationality or race. Let me repeat myself. God is not a racist. Were God a racist, He would have never included Rahab (a Canaanite) or Ruth (a Moabite) in the earthly lineage of His Son. Furthermore, how could the men of Nineveh had any chance of salvation, in the book of Jonah, were God a racist or a patriot to the nation of Israel?
No! God's standard has always been faith. The Gospels, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews and Revelation all make this abundantly clear. There is no dispensational difference. In the hall of faith (Hebrews 11) we see that there are saints the preceed the Jewish nation, and they plus the Jewish saints are placed in the same body as the saints of Paul's day. We place them in the same body, theologically, as modern Christians as well. To say that God has two separate people (the church and apostate Israel) is to make a mockery of the book of Romans, Galatians 3 and, yes, Revelation. This should not be done!
quote:
Replacementism is the view that...
all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.
I don't adhere to this, either. Nor do Hank Hanegraaff or R.C. Sproul, though I do not doubt that there are those that agree with it. Rather, through the writings of well respected first century historians, like Flavius Josephus, we see that all of the prophecies against Israel that were made in the New and Old Testament find their fulfillment either before the time of Christ or shortly thereafter. For the New Testament prophecies regarding judgment being passed on Israel, we see in Josephus' The Jewish Wars, the fulfillment is found in the seige and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, as well as the many persecutions of the Jewish peoples in throughout the other provinces of Rome.
One major problem that I find with dispensational / pre-trib eschatology is that they spend so much time focusing on the now and the uet to come that they neglect to look to the past for any answers. There is a sense that all prophecy MUST be yet future, or it is blasphemy and can't be true. There is definitely a desire to depart from the scripture to find answers for our hard questions regarding prophecy and focus mainly on current events.
The issue with this is that this new pre-trib / dispensational eschatology is the youngest (yet the fastest growing) method of interpreting eschatology, and it is in disagreement with most every reformer and first, second and third century church father. And what extra insight do we have? That world events are different than they were 100 years ago? Guess what. They were different 100 years before that. They were different 100 years before that, as well, and so it continues. Should we continue to look to the sky, and anticipate with new fervor the coming of our Lord? Yes. Should we witness to our lost friends, because we don't know when it will be too late for them? Yes. Should we try to manipulate God's plan by assisting the secular state of Israel in what pre-trib theologians believe will bring about Armageddon, and cut short the opportunity for salvation for so many still in the world? Certainly not!
Read Amos 5.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Kindgo
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Billy..
Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.
Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.
Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.
To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).
"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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And when he (Jesus) was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it....
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord....
And they...shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 19:41; 13:34-35; 21:24
Jerusalem is undisputably, year after year, the top news story in the world. That fact reflects the fulfillment of multiple prophecies concerning this remarkable city and its unique place in God's will. The ongoing actualization of these prophecies in our day is absolute proof that God exists, that the Bible is His Word and that the Jews are His chosen people.
The very fact that Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times in the Bible makes it worthy of special attention.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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“The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem” (Zech. 12:1-2).
Israel, and Jerusalem in particular, have been at the eye of the growing geopolitical storm since its re-birth into modern statehood on May 14, 1948. Every camera and microphone is focused upon and attuned to that nation while it sits upon a powder keg of potential nuclear conflict. The nation, a tiny sliver of land in a vast region promised it by God, has become marginalized to the point it is rapidly becoming hated by most every other country on earth. This is exactly what God predicts. The United States is Israel’s only real friend in a growingly hostile world. When the rapture occurs, and much of the nucleus of support for Israel is instantly gone, God will deal with His chosen people, and with those who will try to destroy them: “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it” (Zech. 12:3).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Billy
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Read the book Whose Land? Whose Promise? by Gary M. Burge. It details the happenings during the Seven Day War, where the Jews came in and removed the inhabitants of Jerusalem. This was declared a great victory by many in the evangelical community, because they viewed it as a sign that we were one step closer to seeing the fulfillment of pre-trib, end time prophecy. The problem with this is, when the Seven Day War happened, Christian arabs were forced from their homes to make room for the Jews who do not know Jesus. Churches were uprooted. Wars between the Jews and the Palestinians began, and guess who got caught in the middle. That's right. The Christians.
But why were they forced from their homes? That's an easy question to answer, as well. They weren't of the Jewish race. They were viewed as unclean. Lower class. Unworthy of the land. Do you believe this? Many Israelis did, and many still do. These Christians still live, today, many of them in refugee camps. All of them caught in the crossfire of the wars between Israel and the rest of the inhabitants in that region. Gary M. Burge interviews many of them in his book. It is worth a read. At least before you arrive at the belief that God is working through this secular state calling themselves Israel in order to bring about an end times paradigm that is, in my reading of the scriptures, blatantly wrong. And I'm not alone in this belief. Hank Hanegraaff and R.C. Sproul both agree with me, here, as well as many others. This is not post-trib or pre-trib. It's just common sense. God is not a racist.
Why are we sending them money for military aid and not sending them missionaries, Bibles and Bible tracts? Just one person answer me this. Please!!!
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
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WildB
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Zech.12
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
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That is all.....
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Etguy
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Thought I had better comment in the topic. John Hagee seems a little strange with some of the things he says while preaching but he is right about one thing and that is God did use the Hollacost ( and a whle lot more ) to drive the Jews back to Jerusalem only i would not put it that way.
It started a little before the turn of the nineteenth century. Through so much persecution a man by the name of Theodore Hertzel wrote a book about the return of the Jews back to Their land. God gave them A longing heart ( scriptually speaking ) to return back to the land. They were given a piece of paper from England through a guy that was high up in parlement permission to have their land back and to return. WWW 1 prevented their return , Hitler and The Nazies prevented them. The united nations later divided up the land and gave Israel (through much pain )a portion and the trouble they had has not stopped. They will eventually be used of God to bring Glory to His ( God's ) name and all the world will know God is the God Of Israel.
God bless
Doug
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Plalm 91 : 1 " He who dwells in the secreat place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty "
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Billy
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quote:
The reason for the Rapture ( amoung many )is just so God can remove the Church and deal directly through Israel.
Please give me a list of scriptures that blatantly, outright agree with this statement.
quote:
All of end times revolve around Jerusalem , The land and the people. All three I mentioned have specific prophecies yet to be realised.
Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in AD 70, and the early church fled to the mountains spreading the gospel into all the world, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Matthew 24. The Jerusalem mentioned lovingly in Revelation (the Bride of Christ) is referred to as "New Jerusalem," and most scholars agree that this refers to the church. When the new heaven and the new earth come into existence, there will be no "land" in Israel, because the old earth will have passed away. This is a concept that is conveyed throughout the Bible. The people of Israel are only the people of Israel by faith. In as much as this is true, the church is true Israel.
John the Baptist, in Matthew 3, told the scribes and the Pharisees that they could not rely on their bloodline to receive the promises of God. In fact, he went as far as to say that God could raise up sons of Abraham out of stones. Certainly, we see this concept played out as we read through Galatians 3. Thus, it is blatantly obvious that apostate Israel is not the Israel that is promised God's favor in New Testament prophecy, but rather true Israel, which is all that have repented and put faith in Jesus Christ. Please read all of the above passages and pray over them before replying.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Betty Louise
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Doug,
I agree with you. I believe it is the Church that is in the world today that is keeping the world from attacking Israel. I believe after the rapture, there will be no one to stand for Israel and this will force her to return to God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Etguy
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Hi Billy and all, I have read the postings on Israel and let me say from the begining God has promised his blessings and loving support for the nation of Israel. This nation has to exist in order for certain prophecies to be fulfilled. We are waiting for the Redemption of Israel and if anyone cares to search it out almost all of the people living in Israel talk about the " Redemption of Israel ". They talk about it even though a great many resedents of Israel are not believers in Christ as Messiah. I have listened to radio broadcasting from Jerusalem and all their talk show hosts constantly have guests they talk to about the state of Israel and all of them agree. Israel needs redeeming and they talk about it like you and I talk about the Dodgers in LA.
The reason for the Rapture ( amoung many )is just so God can remove the Church and deal directly through Israel. All of end times revolve around Jerusalem , The land and the people. All three I mentioned have specific prophecies yet to be realised.
I await any comments and thanks
Doug
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Plalm 91 : 1 " He who dwells in the secreat place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty "
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Billy
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Answers: Part 2 -
What about Zechariah 14 it not only implies that the Lord is coming back to this earth again, it says so point- blank!
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I agree. The Lord will come back to the earth. It is what will happen upon His returning that seems to keep you and I at odds. And, though, I disagree that it has any implications regarding the current state of the predominantly secular nation of Israel, let's deal further with this issue, as it relates to Zechariah 14.
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It says that the Lord will return to this earth at a time when the Jews are back in the land of Israel and their capital city, Jerusalem, is under siege.
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The term 'Jew' is not used, here. The passage refers to God's people as Israel. You and I disagree on exactly who represents true Israel, apparently. According to Galatians 3, we are all sons of Abraham, who have put faith in Jesus Christ, and therefore we are heirs to the promise made to Abraham. According to John the Baptist, the Pharisees and Sadducees had no right to claim that they would be saved by their blood association to Abraham. According to him, God could raise up stones as sons of Abraham. According to Paul, there is now no longer Jew nor Greek in the construct of God's people. There is only true Israel. The rest of the passage could very easily be dealt with according to that understanding, as well as a proper understanding of the apocalyptic imagery of the Old Testament and how it is used to convey heavenly truths using graphic, earthly imagery.
Another question for you: Do you believe the Jerusalem, as described in Revelation, to be the bride of Christ (the church) or the current, predominantly secular state of Israel?
The following is John Wesley's commentary on Zechariah 14. It should give you a good idea of the way that the scriptures were handled prior to 150 years ago. Now, unless there has been some kind of 'new light' that has been shown onto the scriptures since then, it goes against proper hermaneutics to not even consider the way that the church has traditionally handled scripture, throughout history. I find it a much safer bet to approach new interpretations with skepticism than the ones of old. Lest we fall into the same trappings of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS.
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=zec&chapter=014
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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Answers; Part One -
Billy:
I would like for you to, now, explain to me where you see a break in the flow of the passage that allows for such a sudden and drastic switch in interpretation methods.
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I think it is good to deal with one passage of scripture and the quandries that are presented before moving on to others, but I will indulge you by answering your questions, none-the-less.
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Billy:
Also, could you explain to me how this method of interpreting prophecy lines up with Deuteronomy 18?
Kindgo:
Deuteronomy 18... What do you need to know about Deuteronomy 18? This has nothing to do with what I am talking about...?
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We are talking about prophecy, aren't we? If we are to dabble in the realm of interpreting prophecy, it is important to know what it is that God says regarding true and false prophets. In Deuteronomy 18, God makes it plain that, if there is no near future fulfillment of a particular prophecy, the prophet has not spoken the word of the Lord and is therefore a false prophet. This is not to say that near-future fulfillments don't point to a greater ultimate fulfillment, but understanding how the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 played out, in Ezekiel's day may give us some greater understanding of how it's greater ultimate fulfillment will play out.
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Billy:
Thirdly, can you explain to me why God would choose to have two flocks (the church and the Jewish race), when it so obviously contradicts the New Testament, as I pointed out in my last post?
Kindgo:
Yet again, no answer.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Kindgo
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From a secular standpoint it would probably be a mystery why Israel is always in the news. It is a tiny nation that is about the same size as the State of New Jersey and it has no major natural resources.
Israel is important, however, because God made promises to Israel that will be fulfilled. One of the Bible's greatest predictions about Israel has already come to pass. In 1948, Israel was reborn as a nation. The rebirth of the Jewish state should have put aside any doubts that God had abandoned the apple of His eye.
He said, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, My people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it,' declares the Lord" (Eze. 37:11-14).
"Fear not, for I am with you. I will bring your seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..." (Is. 43:5-6).
"In that day, the Lord will reach out His hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of His people, who will be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth" (Is. 11:11-12).
What makes Israel important to end-time prophecy are the many Scriptures that indicate that Israel will be the main setting for key tribulation events.
"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it" (Zech. 12:3).
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:7-8).
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Mat. 24: 15-16).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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What about Zechariah 14 it not only implies that the Lord is coming back to this earth again, it says so point- blank!
It says that the Lord will return to this earth at a time when the Jews are back in the land of Israel and their capital city, Jerusalem, is under siege.
Just as the city is about to fall, the Lord will return to the Mount of Olives.
When His feet touch the ground, the mount will split in half. The remnant of Jews left in the city will take refuge in the cleavage of the mountain.
The Lord will then speak a supernatural word, and the armies surrounding Jerusalem will be destroyed in an instant.
Verse 9 declares that on that day "the Lord will be king over all the earth."
I ask you: How do you treat Zechariah 14 — as fact or fiction? Are you guilty of playing games with God's Word in order to justify sacred traditions and doctrines of men?
I challenge you to interpret God's Word — all of it — for its plain sense meaning. As you do so, you are very likely to find yourself challenged to discard old doctrines and to adopt new ones. This will be a painful process, but it will be a fruitful one, for you will be blessed with the truth of God's Word.
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." — John 8:31-32
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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Deuteronomy 18... What do you need to know about Deuteronomy 18? This has nothing to do with what I am talking about...?
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Billy
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I noticed that, in order to make the prophecy fit into the framework of pre-trib eschatology, you have chosen to use three different methods of interpretation. The first is when you interpret the passage to be speaking of the re-establishment of Israel (the Jewish race) as a nation. The second is when you interpret the passage to be speaking of events that are concurrent to the time of their captivity. The third is when you interpret the passage to be speaking of the millennial reign.
I would like for you to, now, explain to me where you see a break in the flow of the passage that allows for such a sudden and drastic switch in interpretation methods. Also, could you explain to me how this method of interpreting prophecy lines up with Deuteronomy 18? Thirdly, can you explain to me why God would choose to have two flocks (the church and the Jewish race), when it so obviously contradicts the New Testament, as I pointed out in my last post?
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Kindgo
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Chapter 37
Now in chapter 37, again, a prophecy of the restoration of the nation of Israel, the rebirth of the nation.
The hand of the LORD was upon me, carried me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of a valley which was full of bones (Eze 37:1),
So Ezekiel taken now by the Spirit in this vision to this valley that was filled with these bones.
And he caused me to pass by them all around: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, you know (Eze 37:2-3).
In other words, "I don't know. I can't see it. But You know, God."
Again he said unto me, Prophesy unto these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy to the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army (Eze 37:4-10).
Now the Lord explained the vision.
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts (Eze 37:11).
They've been cut off and separated from each other. Little bands of Jews in Germany and Europe, in France, in England, in the United States, in China, in Yemen, and all, in Russia, all over the world, little scatterings of Jews, but they've been scattered throughout the entire earth.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD (Eze 37:12-14).
So the promise that God would give them national life again, that which had been dead for nineteen centuries would come alive and they would be a nation once more. "I'll bring you back into the land." The marvelous prophecy of the rebirth of the nation Israel.
Then the LORD came again and said unto me, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; that they shall become one in thy hand (Eze 37:15-17).
So he took the two sticks and then joined them together so they became just one stick. One was to be marked Joseph, the other was to be marked Judah.
And when the children of the people shall speak unto you, saying, What are you trying to show us? What do you mean by this? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king unto them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all (Eze 37:18-22):
Now, very obvious what God is saying. Extremely obvious. In fact, it's about as obvious as any scriptures can be. What the Lord is seeking to say to the people, when the nation is reborn, re-gathered, rather than being a divided nation as it was when they went into captivity, the Northern Kingdom with the capital Samaria, and the Southern Kingdom with the capital Jerusalem, rather than being two nations, Judah and Israel, when they come back in the last days and are brought back into the land and made a nation again, rather than two nations there will only be one nation. Judah and Joseph, or Ephraim, the tribes of Israel will be gathered together as one nation, no longer as a double nation. Very obvious.
It is almost laughable it is so ridiculous and idiotic for Joseph Smith to claim that his name is in the Bible and he was prophesied in the book of Ezekiel for the stick of Joseph was to be the Book of Mormon that God would give to him and joined together with the Bible would be the continuation of the Bible and God's Word for man in these last days. That is so completely farfetched that a person would have to lay his brains on the shelf to accept any kind of an interpretation of the scripture that way. I mean, God told us what He was talking about. God said, "These two sticks are the two nations and when they come, join them together because there will only be one nation when they come back into the land." Now I would have to say that anybody that can interpret that into the scripture I would not want to be following their Biblical expositions or trust myself to their teaching. When you can gather that kind of stuff out of this scripture, you can make red read green. I mean, that's as farfetched as anything could ever be. And if you're a Mormon here tonight, it's just straight from the shoulder. Look at it and question in your mind the things that you're being taught. For you know that they have taught you that this stick with Joseph on it was actually a prophecy concerning Joseph Smith. But if you can find that in this verse or in this passage or in its context, then you can find snow in hell. I mean, it's just not there.
So God plainly declares, "I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all."
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant (Eze 37:23-24)
This, of course, goes into the future when Jesus Christ comes to establish the kingdom and He will sit upon the throne of David to order and to establish it in righteousness and in judgment from henceforth even forever.
shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd [the Good Shepherd]: and they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and ye shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people (Eze 37:24-27).
So God is going to dwell amongst His people. "I will tabernacle among them. My dwellingplace will be there." So Christ living here upon the earth in the Kingdom Age.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore (Eze 37:28).
Now when we get to chapter 40, he begins to describe for us the sanctuary that is to be built.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
I do not adhere to the pre-trib doctrine.
That said, the passages are messianic. Yes it could be argued that it is a "spiritual" awakening but in order for one to be spiritual they must first be natural.
Who is "the Whole House" of Israel?
Paul gives us a hint in Romans 9:24
even us whom He called(Jews), not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea;
"I will call them My people, who were not my people, and her beloved who was not beloved."
"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them(to who?) You are not my people, There they shall be called sons of the living God".
This is one of the sticks spoken of in Ezekiel. But they are not Jews. They are spoken of in Hosea and Paul speaks of them here in Romans 9:24
If you read the book of Hosea, you will see that this entire book is about those tribes whom God said "you are Lo ammi "Not my people". They are not Jews.
All Jews are Israelits but not all Israelites are Jews.
Hosea 7:8
"Ephraim has "mixed" himself among the peoples;
These are not Jews
The two houses are Ephriam and Judah.
Paul speaks of Ephriam in Romans
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own opinon, that the blindness in part has happened to Israel(Jews) until the fullness of the Gentiles (Ephraim) has come in.
And so ALL Israel (Jew and Gentile) will be saved.
Will expound later, gotta go to work. Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Kindgo
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But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
For behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: And I will multiply men upon you, all of the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginning: and ye shall know that I am the LORD (Eze 36:8-11).
And so the restoration of the nation Israel is here being prophesied.
And if you go over to Israel today, surely you can see the fulfillment of these prophecies as the waste places are now inhabited.
As they have built so many cities, as they have planted so many beautiful orchards and cultivated the fields, and this land that laid wasted and desolate for many centuries has now been reclaimed.
The marshy valleys have been drained and have become very fertile, fruitful fields.
God has fulfilled this particular prophecy concerning the mountains of Israel.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Billy
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In order for me to reply in a non-presumptuous manner, you should probably give me a detailed analysis of Ezekiel 37, from your understanding of it. I've read it, and I know how I justify it with the rest of the Bible, particularly the doctrine of the one flock mentioned in John 10:16 and expounded on in John 11:52, Galatians 3 and Ephesians 2:13-18. Also, I definitely don't see how this fits into the framework of Pre-trib eschatology, because it is very apparent that the return to the "land of promise" is preceded by a type of the resurrection that is not set to happen until the last day. I guess it could be argued that it is a spiritual awakening of sorts. What say you?
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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