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Topic: The Rapture won't come until after the tribulation
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Gramajo320
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Favorminded,
Amen! I'm totally in agreement with your postings and you truly are led by the Holy Spirit!
God bless you always!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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Trenton D. Adams
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I don't have time to read your entire post. I'll read it tomorrow.
But please forgive me if I came across as thinking that you don't hear from God. Did I say something specific to that affect? I certainly hope not, god forbid. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Favor Minded
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While I will not make any accusatory remarks toward you and "your" ability to discern, I will point out that you demonstrated fully your inability to discern simply by stating that you can "see" that I do not hear from God - And, I can tell you, that quite the opposite is true. I know that I know that I know what the truth is and it has been divinely revealed and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I will not state to you that you do not hear from God because we differ on the timing theory - I will tell you that you must be cautious is how and what you say to others -
Your "slappin' hands with Jesus on the way back down" is very very wrong, and your interpretation of scripture is typical post tribber, with a little replacement theology thrown in - A collosal doctrinal error of our day - WE ARE THE BRIDE and we will be removed - The restrainer MUST be removed, as stated quite clearly in scripture, in order for the AntiChrist to rise.
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:51-53).
The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning--something Jesus used quite frequently--I hope to prove the reality of the pretribulation rapture.
The word “rapture” comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words “caught up” are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to “rapture” involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.”
Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture
The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a weping. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it’s time for the weping, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).
What They Didn't Teach You in History Class
Many groups try to discredit the pre-trib rapture by saying most of the end-time events in the Bible have already taken place. A group of people called preterists claims that the Book of Revelation was mostly fulfilled by 70 AD. If the events described in the Book of Revelation took place in the past, I’m at a loss to explain some of the current situations I see around us: the rebirth of Israel, the reunification of Europe, the number of global wars that have occurred, and the development of nuclear weapons. During history class, I must have slept through the part where the teacher talked about the time when a third of the trees were burned up, 100-pound hailstones fell from the sky, and the sea turned into blood (Rev 8:7-8, 16:21). I think several people would have to question their opposition to the pre-trib rapture doctrine if they knew that the evidence provided to them was based on the understanding that most tribulation prophecies have already occurred.
The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell.
The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?
"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.
Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army’s members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.
The Time of Jacob's Trouble
In several passages, the Bible refers to the tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7 says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people. The final week of Daniel's 70th week is yet to take place. An angel told Daniel that, "70 weeks are determined unto thy people" (Dan 9:24). Scripture never mentions that the tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However, some post-tribbers try to claim that they are the ones being tested during the tribulation. To make this so, they need to spiritualize the 144,000 Jewish believers in Revelation 7:2-8 who receive God's protective seal. Placing the Church dispensation into the same time frame as the seven-year Jewish dispensation, as the post-tribbers do, raises one good question: Can two dispensations transpire at the same time? In the past, God has only dealt with one at a time. Having both present during the tribulation would have to be an exception.
”He” That is Taken Out of the Way
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.
War or Rapture
(Rev 19:19-21) When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment.
The Five Foolish Virgins
The weping story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven. Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.
God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.
The Salt of the Earth
Jesus said, "Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13). When the believers are supenly removed, the earth will be plunged into spiritual darkness. When this happens, the Antichrist will then be free to control the world.
God Takes an Inventory
In Revelation 7:3, an angel descends to earth and seals the servants of God. Two bits of information about this sealing highly disclaim a post-trib viewpoint. The first item is the number of people sealed: 144,000. The second one is that all those who are sealed are from the 12 tribes of Israel. For the events in Revelation 7:3-8 to be true in a post-trib interpretation, either the Church has turned against God or God has turned against the Church. A post-tribber could write a thousand-word commentary about why the Church doesn't need to be sealed. Instead of trying to argue about why the Church is not mentioned or sealed, a pre-trib proponent could just say, "We're already in heaven."
Noah and Lot as Examples
The tribulation period is compared to the times of Noah and Lot by Jesus in Luke 17:28. Most people argue over whether the time frame Jesus was talking about in that passage was pre-trib or post-trib. In doing so, they miss an important point. The two circumstances that the Noah and Lot situations have in common are the removal of the righteous and the judgment of the unbelievers. From these two accounts, we see that God prefers to remove His own when danger is involved.
Common-Sense Reasons for Believing in the Pretribulation Rapture
The World Test
One way to check the soundness of a doctrine is to see how the world reacts to it. One company put out a questionnaire that was used to screen prospective employees. One of the questions was, "Do you believe in the rapture?" If you answered “yes,” your chances of getting hired would not be good. Some internet sites do not allow the topics of Rapture or Second Coming. They do allow topics such as sex, gays, and drugs. The only time the news media mentions the rapture is when someone sets a date and is proven to be wrong.
That Old-Time Religion
It used to be a rule of thumb that when one was visiting a church or listening to a preacher, one could assume the preacher believed in repentance, prayer, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost if he taught the rapture doctrine. It was also true that the churches on fire for God worshipped out of storefronts. Today, many of those storefront churches have moved into marble palaces and have strayed from their principal doctrines.
Birds of a Feather Flock Together
Whenever I look at all the groups that teach false doctrine and are highly focused on end-time events, I cannot find any that support the rapture theory. Some organizations, the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, teach a false gospel and are heavily into Bible prophecy. Why, then, don't Jehovah's Witnesses teach a false doctrine that would be right up their alley? Could it be that the demonic forces that influence these groups know something that Christians opposed to the rapture don't know? The list of prophetically minded cults that reject the idea of a rapture goes on and on. Here are some more: the Mormons, the Worldwide Church of God and the Moonies, as well as leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh.
The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist
If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.
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Trenton D. Adams
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I'm going to address some of your points, but not all. I don't have the time for address all of them.
I'll start by saying that your interpretation of the word "keep" is wrong. We are kept "during" the tribulation, not out of it. Look it up, and all of it's roots to get an understanding of it.
And I'm not disputing that there's a "rapture" of us into the air. There is in fact one, right at the end we meet Him in the air as He comes down to touch the mount of olives.
About II Thessalonians 2. I see Paul as saying that it was rediculous for people to be talking about a pre-trib rapture because there's no such thing. The falling away part is referring to people falling away from the Lord. Then we have the part about you thinking that we're not here when he's revealed. v4 clearly says that these things won't happen until he's revealed. Surely you can't ignore plain english in v3-4? "except there come a falling away first AND that man of sin be revealed."
Luke 21:36 is certainly talking about Revelation 3:10 where we're kept during the tribulation, and where we're swept away into the wilderness for 3.5 years.
This isn't a very good argument, and I acknowledge that. But why would the ten virgins have to worry about keeping enough oil for themselves, when there isn't a tribulation for them?
I believe the bride are the Jews, and we are the guests. How else could their be guests to work with all of Yashua's parables about the wedding feast? I can guarantee that His chosen people aren't the guests.
The man child that was born that was caught up to God was Yashua. Hence Revelation 12:5 where it says "and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne. Yashua is the one that sits in the throne with Him right now. We don't rule with Him until the 1000 year reign.
Just as Noah and Lot in Soddom and Gomorrah, we aren't getting out of here, we are simply being protected from the wrath of God during that time. As you say, there is one group of people that won't suffer anything during the tribulation. God will indeed protect them fully. But it will be while we're here.
Seeing that I've been able to explain quite a few of your mis-interpretations of scripture, I would like to know something. How do you make up for the three resurrections?
I hope you will have the faith you need to endure the tribulation when it hits. There is no fear in that tribulation for those that have a true relationship with the Lord. So, as long as your'e seeking Him with all of your heart, you may be SHELL SHOCKED, but you'll make it. But I fear for the others that you teach. For they may not be as strong during that time. They will have been expecting to get a free ride out of here, and fall away because of the stress. Hence the falling away part in II Thessalonians.
I see that you're interpreting scriptures without a sure foundation (for this topic) first. In order to be able to properly interpret the Word, we have to have a concrete foundation. That means that we either have to have heard from God, showing us exactly what certain scriptures mean, or we must have some clear scriptures to create that foundation for us. I have had both. I heard the Word of the Lord first, and the scriptures to back it up came second.
I'm not going to finish reading the whole thing because it's really difficult to read in it's unformatted text. You don't have a formatted copy, do you? If so, where can I get it?
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Favor Minded
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And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."
- I Corinthians 15:14-19
The Apostle Paul said it as well as it can be said. One cannot overstate the profound importance of the reality of the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus to our faith as Christians. If Jesus had not risen from the dead as the Bible states, then all who had and have fallen asleep (died in Christ) are perished and our hope for eternal life is gone. If Jesus had remained in the grave so would we - but praise God He is risen.
Think about what happened when Christ rose from the grave? What was left behind? All they found in that sepulcher was our Lord's grave clothes. What's the significance of that?
In I Corinthians 15:23, it says, Christ is the "firstfruits" of the Resurrection. The first fruits. Isn't that plain? Then in the text it explains that afterwards, or later, "they that are Christ's at his coming" will follow. It's there in God's Word. What it means is that since His clothes were left behind, ours will be also. Those that belong to Christ at the time of His coming will be bodily translated into heaven just as Jesus was - leaving behind the rags of sin for new robes of righteousness.
When Jesus Christ comes to call us home at the Rapture, He will come exactly as He left. How did He leave? He left bodily into the clouds. Acts 1:9 says, "And when he (Jesus) had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go.'"
In other words, if I can prove that He went bodily, then I don't have to go any further to prove that He's coming back bodily. Why? Because the Bible says He's coming back exactly as He left. How did He leave? After spending three days in the grave, He rose and stood on the earth in His new body. In Luke 24:39, He says to some of His followers, "Behold, my hands and my feet. It is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." In verse 41, He says, "Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."
This is Christ in His new resurrected body - a body that could be seen, a body that could be touched, a body that could partake of food. It's a picture of what we will have at the time of the Rapture. How quickly will it happen? "Behold, I show you a mystery," the Bible tells us in I Corinthians 15:51-54. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible (the dead) must put on incorruption, and this mortal (the living) must put on immortality."
This is going to be a glorious event. We shall be changed to be like Jesus. The Psalmist said in chapter 17, verse 15: "I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." In Philippians 3:21, Paul says that God will change our vile bodies - not leave them behind, change them - that they may be fashioned "like unto his glorious body." In I John 3:2, it says that when we see Jesus, we shall be like Him, "for we shall see him as he is."
Did you know that Jesus wasn't the first person to be "raptured" out of this earth? In fact, when the Rapture occurs, it will be the fourth one documented in the Bible. The first was Enoch in Genesis 5:24: And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him. In Hebrews 11:5, Paul adds, that Enoch was translated by faith so that he should not see death. He was "raptured" - caught up in the twinkling of an eye, without dying. The second documented "rapture" is Elijah in II Kings 2:11. Elijah was caught up by a whirlwind into heaven. He, too, never saw death, foreshadowing what we believers will experience on the day the Lord catches us up in the clouds. Then, of course, Jesus was "raptured" away in Acts 1:9: "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."
When Elijah was caught up, angels and chariots of fire came to get him. I personally believe that, in a similar way, angelic hosts may come after those of us who ascend in the Rapture. Why? Because every believer - not just Elijah - has his own ministering angel. They could come to whisk us home in the twinkling of an eye. Luke 16:22 provides a precedent for us: "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."
Is all this something that should frighten us? Excited, yes. Frightened, no. So many people today are facing the our new millennium with dread - with fear and foreboding. There is an anticipation - even in the secular media - that we may be nearing the end of the world. There is anxiety and hopelessness everywhere. The world seems to get just a bit uglier every day as crime increases and wars break out and immorality reigns.
This is not the way believers should feel - especially in this season when we are remembering what Jesus did for us on the cross of Calvary and how He victoriously defeated the last enemy, death, I Corinthians 15:26. What could be more exciting and encouraging than the idea that some of us will never die? In Titus 2:13, Paul calls the Rapture our "blessed hope." In I Thessalonians 4:18, he says, "Comfort one another with these words." "Comfort one another," he says, not frighten one another.
It is clear from scripture that the world will not even end after Christ's 1,000-year reign on earth. The world will never end. Isaiah 45:17 is unequivocal: It's a world without end. "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen," Paul writes in Ephesians 3:21.
Skeptics will no doubt point to Matthew 24:3 which states: "As he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Let's recall that the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek translation of that last world is "age," not "world." Once again, the world is not coming to an end. But this epoch, this age, is closing. And, yes, the advent of the year 2000 does have some significance. Why? Because it could conceivably be the ending of the age of grace and beginning of the millennial age when the King of kings and Lord of lords returns (compare Matthew 24:3 and Matthew 25:34 for proof).
Long before Christ was born, the Jewish rabbis taught a six-day theory about the future of the world. They believed that the world would face several eras lasting a total of 6,000 years, from Adam's creation until the Messiah would come. This theory was based, in part, on Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday." Since God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh day, they reasoned, the world would go on for 6,000 years followed by a 1,000-year millennial "rest" period presided over by the Lord himself.
Think about this. From the creation of Adam until the birth of Christ a period of 4,000 years - or four days passed. From Christ's time on earth until now represents approximately another 2,000 years - or two days. This total of six days is just one more reason to believe that Jesus could return very, very soon.
Six-day periods, followed by remarkable transitions, have been important throughout scripture. Look at Matthew 17:1, for example. "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And he was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." Jesus was giving them a preview of what it would be like when He comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords as described in Revelation 19:16. When they came down from that mountain, He told them not to tell anyone of these things until after His Resurrection.
Not only did the ancient Jewish rabbis teach this six-day theory, but so did the church during the first 300 years of Christendom. The church leaders based their belief on II Peter 3:8: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." St. Victorinus, the bishop of Petah, wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation in 270 AD. He said he saw another great and wonderful sign - "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church shall have gone out of the midst." In other words, St. Victorinus was talking about the Rapture! This teaching is not a present day innovation but a doctrinal statement dating back 17 centuries to St. Victorinus and 20 centuries to Jesus and Paul.
In the 16th century there were those expressing assurance of the Rapture. Hugh Latimer, burned at the stake for his faith in 1555, said: "It may come in my days, old as I am, or in my children's days, the saints shall be taken up to meet Christ in the air and so shall come down with him again." Joseph Medde, the great 16th century literalist understood I Thessalonians 4:13-18 to teach the catching up of the saints and even used the word "rapture." So this is not some new idea.
However, understand this: The Rapture is not taught in Matthew, Mark and Luke. You can find it twice in the Gospel of John. Any other time you are reading about Christ's return in the gospels, it is not referring to the Rapture. Instead, these are references to the second phase of Christ's return - when He physically comes back to earth to rule over it after a seven-year Tribulation period and it's called, in theological circles, "the Revelation" or the revealing of Christ upon earth.
Where are the two Rapture texts in the Gospel of John? John 14:1-3: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This is not His coming to the earth. This is the point at which He receives us unto Himself at the great Rapture - the snatching away - to be with Him in heaven as the seven years of torment occur on earth. The second reference is in John 11:25,26. Christ said: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
Jesus is contrasting those who experience death and live again ("for the dead in Christ rise first," I Thessalonians 4:16) with those who never experience death (because "we which are alive and remain" are caught up without dying, I Thessalonians 4:17).
It's a fact that God always spares His own from judgment. When the horrendous worldwide flood came in Noah's day, Noah told those who were prepared to COME INTO the ark, Genesis 7:7. When the judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19:14, the angels told Lot and his family to COME OUT of the city. Notice this trilogy: In Noah's day, it was COME IN. In Lot's day it was COME OUT. In our day, it will be COME UP, Revelation 4:1.
But, of course, as always, only a select group will be saved - rescued from the worst period in human history. During the Tribulation period that follows the Rapture, all hell is going to break loose on planet earth. It will be a furious time because the hindering power of the Holy Spirit will be temporarily removed. With all the Bible tells us about how we should live on earth, there are almost no instructions about how to prepare for this post-Rapture period.
How bad will things get? In Revelation 9:18, it indicates that a third of mankind will be killed by fire, smoke and brimstone. That, my friends, is nothing less than a first century way of explaining all-out thermonuclear warfare. Imagine. There are nearly 6 billion people on the earth today. If one-third are killed, that's a holocaust representing 2 billion lives. But that's just the beginning. In Revelation 6:8, the rider on the fourth horse brings with him a worldwide plague of disease that causes another fourth of humanity to perish. That's another billion. So half the human race will be annihilated in this relatively brief period. This pictures the judgment predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24:41 and 42.
As terrible as that fate sounds, there is still hope for those left behind. As long as one is alive there's hope. Joel chapter 2 and Acts chapter 2 describe the calamitous tribulation period. In the midst of all the carnage and destruction Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21 states: "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I agree with you Favor-Minded.
Looking forward to the rapture.
God did not drown Noah with the flood, he put him out of harm's way. He will do the same for the Church. The Tribulation is for the anit-christ and his followers not for the Church. Anyone who studies Revlations knows that the bowls of wrath that will pour out is nothing like the tribulation that Paul is taking about. No time in history has ever been nor will be like the tribulation.
betty
Your right, we won't suffer His wrath. We will be taken away into the wilderness for three and a half years. There are those who will suffere the presecution of the people during the time of the tribulation though.
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Favor Minded
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Luke 21 -
25“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
29He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
32“I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
34“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, [b]and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
Rapture in: 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15:
[1 Thessalonians 4:15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[1 Thessalonians 4:16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1 Thessalonians 4:17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture]
[1 Thessalonians 4:18] Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[1Cor 15:51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[1Cor 15:52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[1Cor 15:53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[1Cor 15:54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[1Cor 15:55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The Seven Churches; One is promised an Escape through the "open door" from the Great Tribulation
To Thyatira:
[Rev 2:22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
To Philadelphia:
[Rev 3:8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
[Rev 3:10] Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.
To Laodiceans:
[Rev 3:16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [into tribulation as in Rev. 2:22]
[Revelation 4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[Rev 8:13] And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth [those not raptured?] by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Feast of Trumpets (Open Door)
The Open Door and Last Trump are on the Feast of Trumpets, which is a shadow/prophesy of the Rapture.
[Ezek 46:1] "Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working
days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
[Pss 81:3] Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. KJV
[Col 2:16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday [festival], or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:
[Col 2:17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[Isa 26:2] Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
[Pss 118:19] Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
[Pss 118:20] This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.
[John 10:7] Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
[John 10:9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The Feast of Trumpets, on the new moon, is when the moon is turned to darkness. It is also "on a day or hour that no man knows" --which is an expression referring to this feast (and to a Jewish Wedding)-- because the new moon happens 29.5 days after the previous one, creating uncertainty of whether it will fall on the 29th or 30th day after the previous new moon, which is the first day of the month, thus the festival is traditionally celebrated for two days just to be sure.
[Lev 23:24] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye
have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
[Num 29:1] And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall
do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.
Just as the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts, and on each day of each feast, so too, will the fall feasts be fulfilled when Christ comes the second time, and in order, and on each day of each feast. The Feast of Trumpets points to the rapture, the Day of Atonement points to Satan's defeat, Tabernacles points to establishing the 1000 year kingdom. Trumpets is on the first, and Atonement is on the tenth. Excluding the days of the Festivals themselves, there are "seven days of Awe" or tribulation between them...including, 10.
[Rev 2:10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
2 Thess 2: the Falling Away
The timing and order of these prophetic events: Rapture, Revealing the AntiChrist, Signing of 7 year treaty starting the 7 year tribulation or Day of the Lord:
[2 Thessalonians 2:1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [rapture]
[2 Thessalonians 2:2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[The day of Lord Jesus Christ (click to see verses below) is tribulation, otherwise there would be no reason to be shaken and troubled. See 1 Thess 4:18 above; the rapture is comforting, not troubling]
[2 Thessalonians 2:3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation] shall not come, except there come a falling away [departure/rapture] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[2 Thessalonians 2:4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[2Thess 2:5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?
[2Thess 2:6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[2Thess 2:7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [the Church at the rapture]
[2Thess 2:8] And then shall that Wicked [the antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
In other words,
1. I beg you by our rapture hope,
2. That you don't worry if you hear (you have missed it) and that the tribulation is at hand.
3. Don't be fooled by people (who say the rapture/resurection is already past)
[2Tim 2:18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
The tribulation doesn't start, until you are raptured first, which allows the man of sin (antichrist) to be revealed.
4. Who will, (3.5 years later according to Dan 9:27) sit in the temple as God, as the abomination of desolation
5. Remember I told you this?
6. Now you know that it is your presence that withholds the man of sin, so that he will be revealed in due time.
7. For the antichrist is working now only a little, because we restrain him as we are here and pray, until the rapture, when we will be taken out of the way.
8. And then the antichrist will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy at the second coming.
[2Thess 3:3] But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
[Luke 21:36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Jewish Wedding (a theme of the Feast of Trumpets)
Bridal Chamber = Heaven
[John 14:2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[John 14:3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
In Italics above is an expression, used by the groom in a Jewish Wedding. He speaks this to the bride and then leaves to build an addition onto his father's house before returning for his bride. He returns for his bride in the middle of the night, as a thief, at an hour she might not think, with a loud cry, saying "Behold! The Bridegroom Comes!" Entering the "bridal chamber/heavenly mansion" is the start of the bridal week, and is shown in Isaiah, showing the pre tribulation rapture with the resurrection preceeding it:
[Isa 26:19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
[Isa 26:20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[Isa 26:21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Being "hid in the Lord's house, or heaven during tribulation" is also seen in Psalm 27, which is read daily in the 30 days prior to the Feast of Trumpets.
[Pss 27:4] One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the
LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
[Pss 27:5] For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me;
he shall set me up upon a rock.
[Pss 27:6] And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
The Church is the Bride of Christ.
[Eph 5:25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[Eph 5:31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[Eph 5:32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[2Cor 11:2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
The Rapture is likened to a wedding, and from the Bible, we know a wedding lasts a week, we know the rapture will be pre tribulation.
The scriptures define a marriage as being a week long event. (Bridal week) = (Tribulation week)
Regardless of when the feast is in these verses (not at the end), the time of intimacy (the bride being with the bridegroom sealed away in the bridal chamber) begins at the start of the bridal week, and this is what we look forward to in the pre tribulation rapture. And if you read these accounts, you will see that deception in the stories probably would not have happened if the feast were held at the end of the week, as is depcited in Rev. 19.
Judges 14:1-18 ...And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms. ...If you can give me the answer within the seven days of the feast... She cried the whole seven days of the feast.
Genesis 29:22-28 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. ... Finish this daughter's bridal week
[Mat 25:1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[Mat 25:2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[Mat 25:3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[Mat 25:4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[Mat 25:5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[Mat 25:6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
[Mat 25:7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[Mat 25:8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
[Mat 25:9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[Mat 25:10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[Mat 25:11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[Mat 25:12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[Mat 25:13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
At the end of the tribulation, people are in heaven (the bride, the Church),
and coming down out of heaven, because they have been there for 7 years.
[Luke 12:36] And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
[Rev 19:1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven [the raptured], saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
[Rev 19:7] Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
[Rev 19:8] it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure"--for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
[Rev 19:9] And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
[Rev 19:14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him [the raptured] upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[Mat 24:29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[Mat 24:30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[Mat 24:31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[Zech 14:5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
[Jud 1:14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[Col 3:4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Interesting verse number: 12:12 12 is written all over New Jerusalem, and there are 24 elders in heaven after the rapture in Rev. 4:1.
[Rev 12:12] Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
Yes, the Bride is in heaven, coming down out of heaven at the end of the tribulation:
[Rev 21:2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[Rev 21:9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
[Rev 21:10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Mt. Zion & New Jerusalem: God's bride.
[Heb 12:22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[Isa 51:16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
Daniel's 70th Week
The 70th week of Daniel, which becomes the 7-year Tribulation, is a judgement and curse determined upon Isreal, not the Church.
[Dan 9:24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[Dan 9:25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[Dan 9:26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[Dan 9:27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The Church's sins are taken care of by Jesus' death, and we are not under the curse of the law, nor is the 70th week "to make an end for sins" determined for the Church..
[Gal 3:13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[Gal 5:18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[Rom 6:14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[1Cor 6:12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Who has dominion? Satan or the Lord Jesus Christ's Church?
Further, Satan will be given dominion for 42 months on earth, the second half of Daniel's 70th week, and the Church will not be put under Satan's dominion. The Church, given power by the Almighty Father in heaven, in the name of the Lord Jesus Chist, by the power of the Holy Spirit, restrains Satan, as was shown in 2 Thess 2. We know that Satan has not had full dominion over the Church, even though there are many Christian brothers dying still today, for if Satan did have this power, the Word of God would have been extinguished from the face of the earth by now. History alone proves that the Church is more powerful than Satan in this age, but the scriptures speak for themselves:
[Mark 3:14] And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
[Mark 3:15] And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
[Mark 6:7] And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
[Mark 6:13.4] And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
[Luke 9:1] Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
[Luke 10:19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[Mat 10:8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Casting out Devils was not "just for the disciples only". Anyone can do this in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Mark 9:38.11] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[Mark 9:39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
[Mark 9:40] For he that is not against us is on our part.
Sucessfully casting out devils, does not make one "saved". Hence, if "unsaved" can cast out devils, then the Church surely has the power to restrain Satan.
[Mat 7:21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that
doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[Mat 7:22.24] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy
name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[Mat 7:23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[Eph 6:12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[Mat 16:19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[Mat 16:18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
But Satan will be given dominion and power to dominate the other way around!
[Dan 7:21] I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
[Rev 13:7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
So the Church must be raptured, "caught up", & Satan fights whoever is left over, the tribulation saints; those of the 7 churches who were spewed out into the time of testing, and repent and keep the commandments, and those foolish virgins in Matthew 25 who were expecting Christ's return, but were too busy with the world and caught unprepared.
The man child ruler Raptured in Rev 12
...is Christ and the Church (Christ is the head, the Church is the Body)
The woman giving birth is not the Bride. Jesus comes for a virgin bride. The woman is Isreal (who gave birth to Christ and Christians), who Satan turns to persecute after the rapture. But she is protected by God, so Satan turns toward new believers who are the "remnant of her seed" --tribulation saints, people repent in the tribulation, after the rapture. The man child, the woman's first child, which is caught up [harpazo] to God, is the Church in the pretribulation rapture.
[Rev 12:4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[Rev 12:5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Every single charactistic of the man child applies to both Christ AND the Church. Christ rules, and we rule as his bride (over the nations, with a rod of iron, sitting on his throne).
Rev 2:26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations,
Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
That these characteristics apply to the Church, and that the man child represents the Church does not deny that the man child is Christ. Christ is an essential part of the Church, the HEAD!
[Col 1:18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Since the other "seed" of the woman represents believers (Saints of the Tribulation), the man child also represents the many believers of the Church.
[Rev 12:17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The man child nation is delivered, or caught up to God, before the travail, (the time of trouble, the tribulation, the Day of the Lord).
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Christianity is a "nation".
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
"Lights/Christians" are not in "Darkness/Day of Lord/tribulation!"
[Mat 5:14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
[Phil 2:15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
[Mark 16:15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[John 8:12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
[Amos 5:18] Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
[Amos 5:20] Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
[Joel 2:1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
[Joel 2:2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
[Joel 2:31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
[Mat 24:21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[Zeph 1:15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
[1Thess 5:4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[1Thess 5:5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
[1Thess 5:6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[Col 1:12] Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[Col 1:13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
So, another reason why Christians of the present age are not in that darkness, when Satan will have dominion, is:
[Mat 12:25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[Mark 3:24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
We cannot effectively pray against Satan taking power, when God gives Satan power. It will be tough for the tribulation saints, God lets them be killed.
[Rev 13:10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
[Rev 14:12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
[Rev 14:13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Christ can return in any year at the Feast of Trumpets:
calls Christians to holy living!
The Rapture is signless & is compared to Noah's and Lot's time when people are caught unaware going about their daily lives. Thus, Christ's return is "imminent", the lord is not delaying his coming. Christ's Return at the Second coming comes after 7 years of tribulation with the dramatic sign of the antichrist in the temple claiming to be God. That would be a delay, and would not occur when people are marrying.
Also note: 1 Thess, the first book of the New Testament, the first verses listed on this page, does not speak of any signs of the tribulation. It speaks of the rapture only as the thing to watch for, and look forward to.
[2Pet 2:4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[2Pet 2:5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
[2Pet 2:6] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
[2Pet 2:7] And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[2Pet 2:8] (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
[2Pet 2:9] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
[Luke 17:26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
[Luke 17:27] They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
[Luke 17:28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[Luke 17:29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[Matthew 24:36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[Matthew 24:37] But as the days of Noe [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[Matthew 24:38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[Matthew 24:39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[Matthew 24:40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[Matthew 24:41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[Matthew 24:42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[Matthew 24:43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[Matthew 24:44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The marrying and giving in marriage is in contrast to how things are in the Tribulation before the second coming:
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
We look forward to Christ's appearing and return.
[Luke 21:28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
[Titus 2:13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[Phil 3:20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Heb 12:1 ...let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith...
[Jud 1:21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
We do not look for, nor are told to look for, Satan's appearing.
In fact, we are told to specifically avoid looking for Jesus' physical appearing or return. The reason to avoid looking for Christ's physical appearing is because the AntiChrist will appear physically and claim to be Christ, from 2 Thess 2.
[Mat 24:23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[Mat 24:24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[Mat 24:25] Behold, I have told you before.
[Mat 24:26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Thus, we have a paradox. We look for Christ's return, but are told not to believe it if we hear he has returned, or someone claims to be Him. This mystery is solved through the pre tribulation rapture, which preceeds the appearance of the antichrist in the seven year tribulation. By the time the second coming arrives at the end of the seven year tribulation, everyone on earth will suddenly know who the Lord is without question, because he will destroy the antichrist with the "brightness of his coming" (2 Thess 2:8), and every person will "look upon the one whom they pierced" (Zechariah 12:10, Revelation 1:7, John 19:37).
We know that Jesus will appear physically at the second coming, despite the warnings against believing a physical appearing of a false christ in Matthew.
Rev. 19 & Zech 14
Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
These scriptures about the Lord's physical return with his feet standing upon the Mt. of Olives should be taken literally, because today, in Jerusalem, modern scientists have determined that there is a great faultline running east to west under the mount of Olives in Jerusalem. There is also a great furor over whether or not, in fact, water is welling up under the mount, which is being secretly pumped away.
More scriptures emphasizing Christians wait for and look to Christ's return and not the appearance of the AntiChrist. (Imminancy)
1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. [In Aramaic the expression Come, O Lord is Marana tha.]
James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
[Acts 1:11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Will Christians REALLY be spared the Tribulation?
[Pss 97:10] Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
[Rom 5:8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[Rom 5:9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[Rom 5:10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[Isa 57:1] The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
[Mal 3:16] Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
[Mal 3:17] And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
[Mal 3:18] Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
[Mal 4:1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
[2Tim 4:18] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Scriptures repeated above:
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10)
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
(Revelation 3:10)
People will deny the promise
The debate of pre trib vs. other positions is a spiritually painful one for many who rightly know that all Christians should worship in spirit and truth and unity. Unfortunately, they forget the following scriptures, that say division and heresies are inevitable:
Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luke 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luke 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
[2Pet 2:1.5] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[2Pet 3:3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[2Pet 3:4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[2Pet 3:5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[2Pet 3:6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[Mat 24:48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[Mat 24:49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
[Mat 24:50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[1Cor 15:12] Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[1Cor 15:13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[2Tim 2:18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The Rapture is a Secret Hidden Mystery?
The Lord Jesus Christ, in the Word of God, does not "clearly prove a pre tribulation rapture" with plain language, and this was done on purpose: (1) To hide the knowledge of end times from the early Apostles, who were not to know such things, and (2) to hide the truth from the hard hearted people who don't love the truth who are deceived, who deny the promise, and demand "proof" saying "where is the promise of his coming?" and "my Lord is delaying"
[1Cor 15:51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...
Satan didn't know the plan of the Death of Jesus:
[1Cor 2:7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[1Cor 2:8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[Prov 25:2.8] It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
--(Remember, we will be kings and priests in heaven!)
[Mat 13:10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[Mat 13:11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[2Thess 2:11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[Mat 22:29] Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
[Mark 12:24] And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
[1Cor 14:22] ... prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
God even hid the meaning of a direct prophecy from his own 12 disciples (see Luke below)!!! I assume that if God can hide the meaning of direct and plain statements like this one below (Which was stated about 20 times in the gospels) from the Apostles, then God would have no trouble making a "normal" Christian (who may have his mind set against a "pre trib rapture") unreceptive and unable to come to a full understanding of things spoken of in wedding parables and Festival expressions--particularly ones people today are not familiar with--
[Luke 18:31] And taking the twelve, he said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything
that is written of the Son of man by the prophets will be accomplished.
[Luke 18:32] For he will be delivered to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit
upon;
[Luke 18:33] they will scourge him and kill him, and on the third day he will rise."
[Luke 18:34] But they understood none of these things; this saying was hid from them, and they did not grasp
what was said.
Consider that God hides meaning from his own, for a purpose, and make sure you are truly humble before the Lord, and honest in your desire for understanding, and then pray and search the scriptures some more!
[Dan 10:12] Then he said to me, "Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your mind to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.
Furthermore, Baby Christians are not able to understand certain things, the meat.
[1Cor 3:1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[1Cor 3:2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Please [2Tim 2:15] "Study to shew thyself approved unto God..." and be like the Bereans who [Acts 17:11] "...searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
End time knowledge was also hid from the Apostles of the early age.
[Acts 1:6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[Acts 1:7] He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.
[1Cor 13:12.7] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as
also I am known.
[Mark 13:33] Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
[Mat 24:44] Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
[Dan 12:9] And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
[Dan 12:10] Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand;
but the wise shall understand.
In the time of the end, the wise shall understand.
[Mark 13:23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
[Mark 4:22] For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come
abroad.
[1John 2:20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
[1John 2:27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same
anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
[Amos 3:7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
[1Pet 1:5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[Isa 46:8] "Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors,
[Isa 46:9] remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
[Isa 46:10] declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, `My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
[Ecclesiastes 1:9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[Job 11:6] And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is! Know therefore that God exacteth
of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.
[1Cor 10:11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[Rev 21:27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Other "Pre Trib" verses:
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
More "Rapture" verses:
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Philipians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NIV)
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)
2 Corinthians 5 1-21, full chapter.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
1 Peter 1:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by themthat have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
...
My Conclusion:
I am not "setting a date". But I am living in high expectation, and I am watching for the Lord's return. First, I believe the rapture will occur on a Feast of Trumpets.
I expect the rapture to come on a Feast of Trumpets, then and Satan's defeat on a Day of Atonement 7 years later. 75 days after Atonement is Hannuka, the day to rededicate the temple. This may explain Daniels's 1335 days, which are 75 days more than 1260 days which is the day count until Satan's defeat...
Personally, I believe that hard-hearted, contentious, post-tribbers, who teach lies, will get their prayers answered, and will find themselves in the tribulation:
[Rom 2:5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[Rom 2:6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[Rom 2:7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[Rom 2:8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[Rom 2:9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
How can they pray for something they don't believe?
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)
Many Anti-Rapture webpages conclude with saying that they hope that people who believe in the Rapture will not put their 100% faith in it, because we just can't know whether or not there will be a rapture. Although I am 100% sure there will be a pre tribulation rapture, I will not guarantee this reward for anyone, nor will I speculate on who will ascend into heaven, because I cannot see into a person's heart...
[Rom 10:6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
[Rom 10:7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[Rom 10:8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[Rom 10:9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[Rom 10:10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
What? You ask me? How can I lead people to believe in the comforting doctrine of a pre tribulation rapture, and then say some people who wait for it will be shut out? Because that's what the Bible says!
[Phil 2:12.26] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Review Matthew 25, the 10 virgin parable. The five foolish virgins, who were waiting and looking for their Lord, were caught unprepared.
Review Revelation 2-3. There are seven Churches. Only one was told they would be spared the tribulation that was coming to try those who dwell on the earth.
I suppose the pre tribulation rapture teaching can lead to error if people use it as an excuse to not dig into the Word of God. "I don't need to study the tribulation or read the Bible... I won't be here..." Hey now, that's totally unscriptural, and I teach no such thing! "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, people!"
Or, if people believe they would never have to suffer any persecution ever at all for any reason. Clearly there was persecution in the past. There is ongoing persecution against Christians today, and there will be persecution against Christians in the future, before the Rapture comes.
The pre TRIBULATION rapture is not a promise of an escape from tribulation, but a guarantee that tribulation is coming on all the unrepentant and unready.
Clearly the Bible does not teach that all "Church go-ers" will be raptured. If someone did teach that ALL would be raptured, I believe that would contradict the parable of the 10 virgins and the accounts of the review of the Churches in the beginning of Revelation. In fact, as I see it, only half or less of Church-goers are deemed worthy at the Rapture date, and the rest are sent off into the Tribulation for further testing.
[Rev 3:10] Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.
If Christians are mentally prepared for persecution, then the doctrine would not "lead people into death", as they would be prepared for when persecution came, regardless of whether or not there was a rapture before the Tribulation. When people are ready for the rapture, they are ready for "death" at any time.
If Christians do not have total faith that they would be raptured, and are a bit unsure if they will be raptured or not, there also is no danger, as they would be prepared for persecution of the tribulation.
I teach:
THE pre tribulation rapture is 100% certain, and this is comforting for all true believers.
YOUR pre tribulation rapture not 100% certain... That is up to how you respond to the invitation to the gospel message, whether or not you repent, whether or not you believe in your heart, and confess to the Lord Jesus Christ with your mouth before men. See my "who goes in the rapture" collection of scriptures for more on this topic.
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)
Besides, in order to teach a pre tribulation rapture, you need to define and teach what that "tribulation" will consist of... so there's no deception going on.
A post trib perspective would lead one to store up food, and be concerned with worldly posessions. A pre tribber can focus on preaching the gospel message.
What is our faith? What is Christianity? That we believe the Word of God, which teaches that all men are sinful, and in need of the atoning death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That we believe he came in the flesh. That Christ conquors all, and has the power of forgiveness of sins. That we have the hope that if Christ did what he did, spoke the truth, and did not lie, we have the hope of everlasting life, and that we will be with him in heaven.
The rapture doctrine is simply that we will be with Christ in heaven. Pre-trib rapture doctrine is simply that before the tribulation of the AntiChrist and mark of the beast world system, there will be a fulfillment of one of Christ's basic promises.
If I'm wrong, there will be 3.5 years of pre-wrath tribulation. If I'm wrong, there will be 3.5 years of preaching by two supernaturally- powered witnesses of God. (Rev 11). If I'm wrong, there will be another 3.5 years after the AntiChrist reveals himself by confirming a 7-year covenant with Isreal, (Dan 9:27) and 3.5 years before the AntiChrist sets himself up in the temple and declares himself to be God. (2 Thess 2:3-5) If I'm wrong, there would be time to set things straight...
If the people who teach there is no rapture are wrong... woah! The consequences will be devestating! If the rapture happens, and they have been caught teaching lies, they might not be deemed worthy, but instead suffer all the curses of the tribulation!
[Rev 22:18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall
add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[Rev 22:19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take
away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this
book.
What will various post tribbers believe AFTER the pre tribulation rapture? First, they will be wailing and gnashing their teeth...
The AntiChrist and False Prophet will come onto the scene, and announce one of several possibilities...
1. that the people who disappeared were deemed mentally unfit for the new world, not ready for the next evolutionary step...
2. they had to be taken away by space aliens to be "re-educated" to reform their intolerant Jesus-only backward way of thinking...
3. the missing people were all opposers of the new "Christ" and world system, wicked intolerant hateful Bible literalists...
or
4. the rapture and end has just come, and that the AntiChrist is Jesus, coming back right after the rapture, to set up the millinial world kingdom.
(The gog/magog war of Ezekiel 38,39 which should start the 7 year tribulation, will be claimed to be Armageddon.)
Post tribbers claim the rapture will happen right before Armageddon.
Pre tribbers claim the rapture will happen before the gog/magog war, and that Armageddon happens at the end of the 7 years.
Pause and consider the risk/reward scenario regarding the pre-trib rapture.
Let the odds of probability decide which is the more dangerous doctrine to hold and/or teach...
Whether or not I think of myself worthy or not to escape in the Rapture, or whether you think you don't deserve to be in heaven while Christians today are dying for the faith, has no bearing on whether the doctrine is true or not.
Why do Churches feel so uncomfortable about the idea of the rapture? Read over the parable about the kingdom of God being like 10 virgins in Matthew 25, quoted above. All are chaste, and awaiting Christ's return, but only one half go. Kind of scary isn't it? Only in the sense that you should begin to Fear God if you are not a true Christian Holy Spirit filled believer!
Final thoughts for anyone who has read this page: Jesus holds people accountable for knowing the times they live in.
L12:54 Then he went on to say also to the crowds: "When you see a cloud rising in western parts, at once you say, 'A storm is coming,' and it turns out so. L12:55 And when you see that a south wind is blowing, you say, 'There is a heat wave,' and it occurs. L12:56 Hypocrites, you know how to examine the outward appearance of earth and sky, but how is it you do not know how to examine this particular time?"
If you have not yet repented and accepted Jesus, remember the story of the thief dying on the cross next to Jesus:
"And he said unto Jesus, LORD, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:42-43(KJ))
This story is a beautiful example of the love and mercy of our Lord. Right up until the very time that this thief was about to die, this thief was lost. Then, he realized who Jesus was. He humbly asked Jesus to remember him. He called Him Lord. He was saved at the very last moment, and given the assurance of being with Jesus.
If you are a believer who has left your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, come home now! Remember the story of the lost son, who came home!!!
[Luke 15:11] And he said, A certain man had two sons:
[Luke 15:12] And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
[Luke 15:13] And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
[Luke 15:14] And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
[Luke 15:15] And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
[Luke 15:16] And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
[Luke 15:17] And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
[Luke 15:18] I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
[Luke 15:19] And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
[Luke 15:20] And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
[Luke 15:21] And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
[Luke 15:22] But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
[Luke 15:23] And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
[Luke 15:24] For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I agree with you Favor-Minded.
Looking forward to the rapture.
God did not drown Noah with the flood, he put him out of harm's way. He will do the same for the Church. The Tribulation is for the anit-christ and his followers not for the Church. Anyone who studies Revlations knows that the bowls of wrath that will pour out is nothing like the tribulation that Paul is taking about. No time in history has ever been nor will be like the tribulation.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Trenton D. Adams
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You bet he's not coming until after the tribulation.
How can you say that Paul said to pray that we might not enter into the tribulation? I mean really, do you think praying is going to change God's plans on the tribulation?
Ah yes, the infamous argument that says that people would be able to repent just before he comes back if they know the season, if it was anything other than a pre-trib rapture. No, I'm sorry my friend, the Word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. God will most certaintly harden the hearts of those that would think to tempt Him in the way you have just described. If people are thinking that way, they will not make it. So, that's a bad argument for the pre-trib view.
Have you read my original post thoroughly? I would certainly like you to come up with arguments, by scripture, that disprove this sure foundation.
Also, you said that the only view that "makes sense" is pre-trib view. I'm sorry, but I don't want something that "makes sense", I want the truth, and nothing but the truth. I want concrete evidence to the fact, or don't bother arguing with me because it'll be fruitless for both of us, and would take time away from me seeking Yashua. I would be absolutely happy to believe that pre-trib rapture is true. That means I don't have to die for Yashua. Unfortunately the scriptures say that I might have to. I personally don't have to worry about that. I have that blessed hope of the glorious return of my king.
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Favor Minded
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I have devoted many many years to eschatology. I have studied extensively all five schools of thought / theories on end times and the timing of events.
I know in depth each of the ideas and how they are founded however,
Pre Tribulation rapture is the only one that makes a completeness of the prophecies given by the prophets.
And, while my entire web site is devoted to these things, I will ask but one question for now -
How is it that you can so boldly state that you know one thing for sure, that Christ is not coming, not yet...
In stating the above regaridng rapture timing, you are stating flatly that you know one thing for sure, Christ is not coming, at least not until the tribulation is over...
That, my friend, goes against the Word, period - Regardless of all other teachings...
Paul taught that there is a special crown for those who are ready each day - He also taught that we are to pray that we escape the tribulation...
Can't we, if one is to believe in a combination rapture as you claim, just cruise along and then, just before the end of the tribulation, send some knee mail and ask forgiveness just before he comes back? After all, we will know exactly when it is (give or take a few weeks) if we believe in a Post Trib scenario - But then, knowing is ALSO against the word...
FM
http://favorminded.com
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I stand by my belief in the pre trib rapture. If the rapture takes place after the tribulation then it would not come as a thief in the night.
The Rapture
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Luk 17:33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luk 17:34I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Luk 17:35Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left., and the other left.
The Second Coming
Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make warRev 19:12His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jesus will gather His Saints in the clouds during the rapture. But at His Second Coming. He will be ready for battle against the anit-christ and those in the world that took the mark of the beast. During the rapture Jesus will not touch the ground but at the Second Coming, He will.
You quoted some of those scriptures completely out of context.
Everyone that I've met that believes in pre-trib does so stubornly. They don't want to know the truth, they just want to believe what they want to believe, and what suits them. This is much the same way that Tim LaHaye is. Most pre-trib believers are founded on his shaky foundation and actually receive that other spirit from him. I'm not saying he's not saved, just saying that he's in error on this topic, and will cause many to fall away when the tribulation hits because of it.
I don't want to be persecuted during the last days, but at the same time I look forward to standing for my God as all the prophets of old have. As it is written,
Revelation 6:9-11
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
1. His second coming will still be as a thief in the night to those that don't believe. And we still won't know the hour or the day. He doesn't not say we won't know the season. In fact, the following scripture indicates we will know the season...
The Holy Bible, King James Version
I Thessalonians 5:4-5
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
In reference to your claim that he doesn't touch down when he comes to get us, I'll post one on that showing that the seven trumpets and vials are tied together. Watch for it.
No one can stand against the wisdom and understanding of the Lord. I have definitely been given that for the things of the end times. That doesn't mean I'll be right on every single point. I am still, unfortunately, human. I sometimes go off in the flesh and come up with things that aren't true. LOL
With that said, would you ever suggest that someone who isn't saved should read the Word? That would be a bad thing. We have to believe before we read. Why? Because we have to have a sure foundation before we start building on it. So, there aren't any scriptures that I've ever seen anyone else find that can conclusively proove pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. But, if you will read what I wrote a few times, you will see that it is the foundation that you need to build upon for a study of the end times. EVERY scripture must be interpreted based upon other scriptures that give foundation. Like I said, most end time scriptures are not conclusive about when we get out of here. All of those scriptures can actually bend either way, hence people twisting them to mean what they want, instead of having the proper foundation for interpreting them.
With that said, I'm not saying you're a horrible christian or something because you simply want to believe what you want to believe. We are all like that. Every single one of us. I have been finding out just how much that is true about me. We need to smash the walls of error down so that the Lord can show us the truth of the matter.
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by freaknpv:
Very good and in depth post, with some good points.
I personally dont care , pre,mid,post or Jesus coming back in 20 minutes. I think we should be seeking to follow our master and not be to concerned about when the rapture will be, or if there will be one, Jesus only asked us to be doing His work not plotting and planning and debating about the time of His return.
Thank you Trenton
You are quite right freaknpv, our focus should entirely be on following Yashua. But the end times studies are still fairly important. Look at how much of the word of God is devoted to the end of days. An entire half of Daniel, all of Revelation, many parts of the books of the prophets, small sections of other NT books, entire chapters in the gospels, are all devoted to this topic. Actually, I've found that as I study this topic, it drives me to want more of Him.
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Niedziejkore
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quote:
I personally dont care , pre,mid,post or Jesus coming back in 20 minutes. I think we should be seeking to follow our master and not be to concerned about when the rapture will be, or if there will be one, Jesus only asked us to be doing His work not plotting and planning and debating about the time of His return.
Amen to that! Yeah, I've noticed a lot of people, not only here but in real life are OBSESSED with rapture, and actually want the world to end soon. They've actually convinced themselves that the generalizations John reveals in revelations actually fits with things happening now. However, i've read revelations, and read hal lindsey and other's websites and the connections are no more solid than nostradamus' quantrains. With a little imagination, revelations can fit any stage of history.
I don't believe it is our mission as christians to watch for the rapture. That is not what we're put on earth to do. those who look for the rapture will be disappointed and die ordinary deaths without being magically transported into heaven because god will see they are only idolaters who have strayed away from the real teachings of the bible. it's a stupid reading of scripture.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I stand by my belief in the pre trib rapture. If the rapture takes place after the tribulation then it would not come as a thief in the night.
The Rapture
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Luk 17:33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luk 17:34I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Luk 17:35Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left., and the other left.
The Second Coming
Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make warRev 19:12His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jesus will gather His Saints in the clouds during the rapture. But at His Second Coming. He will be ready for battle against the anit-christ and those in the world that took the mark of the beast. During the rapture Jesus will not touch the ground but at the Second Coming, He will.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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freaknpv
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posted
Very good and in depth post, with some good points.
I personally dont care , pre,mid,post or Jesus coming back in 20 minutes. I think we should be seeking to follow our master and not be to concerned about when the rapture will be, or if there will be one, Jesus only asked us to be doing His work not plotting and planning and debating about the time of His return.
Thank you Trenton
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Head in Heaven, Fingers in the Mire
Posts: 25 | From: Cali. | Registered: Feb 2005
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Trenton D. Adams
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The Word makes very clear about this. Here's just a small section on at study about the end times that the Lord our God has completely thrown me into...
Pre/Mid/Post Tribulation Rapture?
I believe that the word of Yahweh makes it very clear that we do go through the tribulation. We are not to have fear during this time, because our lives are in the Lord’s hands. We are to have complete faith in Him no matter what trials come our way.
First, we state some facts, and then we prove them. Not all of these facts are required to prove that we are here, at least beyond the beginning of the tribulation. However, facts 1, 2, and 5 are required to prove this. The seventh trumpet being the last trumpet also adds to the fact that it’s not mid tribulation rapture.
End Time Facts
1. There are only two resurrections
2. The rapture and 1st resurrection happen together
3. The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet
4. The trumpets and vials are all done together
I’ve devoted an entire section to this topic since it’s relatively long. See the section on End Time Events
5. Christians die during the tribulation
Two Resurrections
There are only two resurrections. There’s a resurrection of those that are in Christ, and one of those that are not in Christ. Let’s study Revelation 20:4-6 to see how the bible shows that there are only two resurrections.
DANIEL references the resurrection of the righteous, and the resurrection of the damned.
Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
In verse five it states that the rest of the dead don’t get resurrected until after the thousand year reign. Taking that verse into context, with verse four; we see that the first resurrection is of those that were in Christ, for they lived and reigned with Him for a thousand years. With that said, it’s apparent that the second resurrection is after the thousand year reign. Verse six also shows that those that take part in the first resurrection are those that reign with Christ a thousand years.
Rapture and 1st Resurrection Coupling
The scriptures make it very clear the rapture and the first resurrection are tightly coupled together. To my knowledge, there is no way to separate them by scriptural proof. Below, I show by scripture that this is the case.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Seventh and Last Trumpet
People that believe in the pre/post-tribulation theories pretty much have to believe that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet call revealed in I Corinthians 15:51-52. This is in part because of the fact that the Trumpets and Vials are poured out together. Below we use some scripture to show that the seventh trumpet in Revelation is in fact the last trumpet that we get out of here on.
I Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV)
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Take note how Paul speaks of a mystery, while the seventh trumpet of Revelation brings in the end, and the fulfillment of the mystery of God. I’m not sure I would call it twisting scripture to not acknowledge that these two scriptures are in fact linked. However, it truly is going against all common sense. I would certainly like to know of another last trumpet in the bible if there is one.
Christians die in the Tribulation
There is a common understanding between all the different theories of the end times. As far as I know, pre, mid, and post tribulation views hold to the fact that some Christians die during the tribulation. I believe the pre and mid tribulation views state that the Christians that die in the tribulation were actually saved during the tribulation. In other words, they are “new” believers; beginning to believe after all the other Christians are taken home.
This scripture is just before the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. It shows that some of the fellow servants, of the saints that went on before, must die as well.
Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
For more scriptures on saints dying in the tribulation, just read the section on “Tribulation of the Saints”.
Tribulation of the Saints
Although most of us do not partake in the outpouring of the wrath of God, we do have tribulation during the Great Tribulation.
Below are some scriptures that show that Christians are persecuted during the tribulation, and in fact even die.
Daniel 11:32-35 (KJV)
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Revelation 13:6,7,15 (KJV)
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Conclusion
Knowing that there are only two resurrections, that the rapture and resurrection are tightly coupled together, and that Christians die during the tribulation, we can now conclusively prove that we endure the tribulation at least in part. I also believe that we endure it until the very end, and are taken up before the 1000 year reign and before Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives, as written in Zechariah. The reason I believe this is because the trumpets and vials are tied together, and the last trumpet is the "last trumpet" referenced by Paul. No where else in the bible is there a reference to a "last trumpet", other than in the book of Revelation.
1. TWO RESURRECTIONS
We know there are only two resurrections. I think most people agree on this and it's shown in Revelation 20:5. The first resurrection is just before the thousand year reign. Then it says the "rest of the dead lived not" until after the thousand year reign. So, that would be the second resurrection.
2. FIRST RESURRECTION WHEN CHRIST COMES
We know that the first resurrection/rapture includes the dead in Christ and the existing saints going to meet Him in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states this.
3. SAINTS PERSECUTED AND KILLED IN TRIBULATION
We know that some saints die in the tribulation because Revelation 20:4 talks about those that were beheaded for the gospel and did not worship the beast, or his image. Since the worshipping of the beast and his image is specifically happening during the tribulation, we know that these are the ones that died in the tribulation. However, this includes others in past ages.
4. SAINTS REIGN WITH CHRIST
We know that the saints, including those that get the power over the image of the beast, reign with Christ a thousand years. - Revelation 20:4
5. SECOND RESURRECTION AFTER 1000 YEAR REIGN
We know that the rest of the dead do not rise until after the thousand year reign - Revelation 20:5
We now know that if there is a pre-tribulation rapture (which would include the first resurrection because they can not be separated), there can't be yet another resurrection to fulfill point four because that would make the resurrection after the thousand year reign the third resurrection. What I specifically mean here is that in order to fulfill point four, we would need the second resurrection to include those who are “in Christ” that died during the tribulation, and this is not the case because the second resurrection is for the damned, not the righteous. This conclusively proves that we are here right until the seventh trumpet is sounded by the seventh angel.
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