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Topic: The Rapture won't come until after the tribulation
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HisGrace
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posted
Pick a thread, any thread. Since it has been requested to keep "a little humor on the Rapture issue" on the lighter side, I have transferred this quote from Trenton D Adams onto his own thread.
"It would be very easy to accept the mark of the beast before it's enforced because the anti-christ wouldn't necessarily be revealed at that time. By then it's too late."
I'm sure the anti-christ will have his own agenda and on how the mark of the beast is enforced so that it will be impossible to duplicate. Also, to have the mark of the beast before the proper timing, would go against the correct sequence of events in the prophecies.
Rev. 13:17 And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name.
We know his number will be 666, but we won't know his name until the Lamb breaks that first seal.
Proof that he will only be in power for 3 1/years, which most believe will be the second half of the tribulation called "The Great Tribulation" -
Rev 13:5 Then the beast was allowed to speak great blasphemies against God. And he was given authority to do what he wanted for forty-two months (which is exactly 3 1/2 yrs.)
I have heard it said that once someone accepts the mark of the beast there is no possible way that it can be reversed - the person is doomed.
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BORN AGAIN
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Dear xuejunsheng, have you tried getting your hands on a Chinese Bible? How difficult is it to get a Chinese Bible?
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
First, I must ask you what you meant by the word "Luciferic"??? Are you aware that the Bible calls the Devil (Satan) - Lucifer? The reason your first statement here is giving me trouble is because Jesus would Never lead us to anything to do with Lucifer.
I was curious about that too. But, it makes sense that the devil's name is lucifer because he used to be the angel of light. He was very beautiful indeed.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=luciferous
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by xuejunsheng:
jesus leads us to a luciferous ,beautiful ,equitable world which always emerge in our minds,in our dreams .
its a good thing most of the people have the same conviction .its helpful to preserve the world peace ,enhance the progess of the world,accelerate the exchangement of different religions ,contries with different cultrual ground .at least they has the same conviction ,the joint god ,the immortal jesus .
meanwhile we are necessary to think about the current situation of chinese conviction .maybe after
Welcome to the BBS. I see this is your first post here.
I realize that English is not your fist language and I may have misunderstood a couple of things. And so I hope you won't mind if I ask you a couple of questions?
First, I must ask you what you meant by the word "Luciferic"??? Are you aware that the Bible calls the Devil (Satan) - Lucifer? The reason your first statement here is giving me trouble is because Jesus would Never lead us to anything to do with Lucifer.
The second part that I quoted here also gives me trouble and I'm not sure I understand what you're saying? As Disciples of Jesus, we Can Not "accelerate the exchangement of different religions" - but I'm not entierly sure what you meant by that statement? Are you saying that all religions should merge? Or are you saying that all religions need to be changed to worship Jesus Christ the Son of God?
World peace can only come once Jesus has returned with HIS Saints and overthrows the AntiChrist.
I'm also a bit confused about how you describe "Rapture." The way we understand it here is that it is something that GOD does, and not a spiritual state that a person can attain. It is God/Jesus who will "Change" our physical bodies (at the time of The Rapture) into the New Glorified Body that will never die. The body we will have for all Eternity with the Lord.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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xuejunsheng
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posted
the knowledge of christian and bible is so profound that i feel drizzled as a chinese christian .i learned from what you have discussed
that the rupture wont come until after the tribulation .but im confused about what the sentence really mean.i guess the jesus reached the state of rupture that nealy no commen people can reach.thats a state of peak in spiritual world .only jesus got there .but jesus was not comlete it smoothly of course .he had to experite various tribulations .thats unvoidable .the one who has the perserverance to persist,who has the oppotunity to become the christian .christian is the symbol of a most gracious spirit ,jesus leads us to a luciferous ,beautiful ,equitable world which always emerge in our minds,in our dreams .
in my opionion ,christion is the most worshipful religion who has the most broad belivers in the world .the people who believe in the christion make it part of their life ,without a pray at the beginning of a day ,they would not set their mind at rest.when they met difficulties in life ,they always turned to the god for help.if they did it ,they would be more confident to solve problems ,for god gave them power to conquer all issues .conviction is so important to one man ,even to a ethnic group that no conviction means the soul of the race is pale ,has no power to make all people to come together to guard their homes ,their fellows.when being invaded ,they couldnt gather all people for they didnt have the joint conviction so they couldnt come together .whats more ,conviction is rewarding to improve ones self-cultivation ,take one to a high spiritual state .from this bulletin boarding board ,i see so many christian believers in western world that cant be imagined in china.its a good thing most of the people have the same conviction .its helpful to preserve the world peace ,enhance the progess of the world,accelerate the exchangement of different religions ,contries with different cultrual ground .at least they has the same conviction ,the joint god ,the immortal jesus .
meanwhile we are necessary to think about the current situation of chinese conviction .maybe after
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Favor Minded
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All other things aside BA,
What are the mansions for then? what was Jesus referring to? How will anyone see their mansion?
Many try to discredit the pre-trib rapture by saying most of the end-time events in the Bible have already taken place.
Preterists claim Revelation was mostly fulfilled by 70 AD. If the events described in the Book of Revelation took place in the past, how do you explain some of the current situations around us:
Israel reborn - the rise of the Roman Empire (European Union), the number of global wars that have occurred, and the development of nuclear weapons.
During history class, I must have slept through the part where the teacher talked about the time when a third of the trees were burned up, 100-pound hailstones fell from the sky, and the sea turned into blood (Rev 8:7-8, 16:21).
Pre trib dictates after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. (We will receive the MANSIONS JESUS PREPARED)
At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is the Holy Spirit.
We have been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation.
The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is the best explanation for this dilemma.
Rev 19:19-21 - When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle.
For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment.
The story Jesus tells in Matthew 25:2-13 is a parable of the rapture of the Church.
It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven.
Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.
In Revelation 7:3, an angel descends to earth and seals the servants of God.
Two pieces of information about this sealing totally disclaim a post-trib viewpoint.
The first item is the number of people sealed: 144,000.
The second one is that all those who are sealed are from the 12 tribes of Israel.
For the events in Revelation 7:3-8 to be true in a post-trib interpretation, either the Church has turned against God or God has turned against the Church. A post-tribber could write a thousand-word commentary about why the Church doesn't need to be sealed.
Instead of trying to argue about why the Church is not mentioned or sealed, a pre-trib proponent could just say, "We're already in heaven."
If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, how will he be able to operate?
When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict.
It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany.
If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, this would give the Antichrist fits.
In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches.
Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.
Anyway - Can you explain these things away in the AD70 and Post Trib ideas?
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
Born Again how do you explain Rev. 19? There is nothing saying that anyone will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus and then pull a u-y, turn around and come back to earth.
The meeting part of the Lord and the saints remaining on earth is not mentioned in Rev.19, but is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians.
I have appended by Topic, "This meet is an apantesis" below.
1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Dr. James McKeever, for one, has pointed out that the Greek word for meet in 1Thes.4:17 above is the word apantesis.
This word occurs only 4 times in the NT (see Strong's 529), and means to go out to meet an arriving person, and then TO TURN AROUND and ACCOMPANY THAT PERSON BACK TO WHERE WE CAME FROM.
A good example of how apantesis works is found in Acts 28:15, where the Christian brethren of Rome heard that Paul was coming toward Rome, and so the brethren left Rome and came as far out of Appii Forum to meet {Greek, apantesis} the oncoming Paul:
Acts 28
14 Where we {the oncoming Paul} found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we {the oncoming Paul} went toward Rome.
15 And from there, when the brethren {of Rome} heard of us, they came to MEET us as far as Appii forum, at The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
So we see the brethren went from Rome to Appii Forum, where they met or apantesis with Paul, and then the brethren turned around and accompanied Paul back to Rome.
Let me now apply this use of apantesis to 1 Thes.4:17:
1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is, when the Lord comes toward the earth at the Second Coming, we are caught up from the earth to meet or apantesis the Lord in the air, and then we turn around and accompany the Lord back to the earth where the Lord is headed.
When that catching up occurs, we therefore do not go to heaven, but we accompany the Lord back to the earth in our glorified bodies.
The other two instances in the NT where this word apantesis occurs are Matthew 25:1 and 25:6:
Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet {Greek, apantesis} the bridegroom.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go out to meet {Greek, apantesis} him.
These two verses from Matthew 25 refer to the same event as that described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 at the top of this Topic.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Note also that this meet in Thes.4:17 is the Greek word apantesis, which means we go up meet Him and then we [b]go down with all of them to the earth to be part of the Second Coming.
Born Again how do you explain Rev. 19? There is nothing saying that anyone will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus and then pull a u-y, turn around and come back to earth.
Re Verses 6,7 - This is already taking place in heaven where the Bride is preparing to come down to earth with Jesus.
"Then I heard again what sounded like a shout of a huge crowd, or the roar of mighty ocean waves, or the crash of loud thunder. Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns. let us be glad and rejoice and honor her. For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself."
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BORN AGAIN
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LaurieFL writes quote:
1. Miss Betty's example of the decsription of two men working in a field and one disappearing is also indicative of a rapture.
2. I also agree that a rapture makes no sense if it occurs after the tribulation, because there would be no need for one.
Regarding Item 1, that does not necessarily refer to the rapture of the saints.
I currently think that Item 1 will occur at the same time as the Second Coming of Christ will all His saints.
The pre-trib rapturists think that Item 1 means that the saints will be raptured at the start of a 7-year tribulation period and that the saints are the ones who are taken and that the ones that will be left are the wicked:
Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
However, I think that the ones that will be takenare the wicked, and the ones that will be left are the saints.
I say this for several reasons. One is Malachi 4:
Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
That is, the wicked were taken in the fire, and the saints were left standing and walked on the ashes of the wicked.
Also, in the parables of Jesus, the wicked are always taken first:
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
As for Item 2, at the Second Coming when the Lord comes with all of His saints who were already in heaven because they had died before the Second Coming, when He comes with those saints to the sky above the earth, then the saints who remain on earth are also caught up to meet Him in the air:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Note also that this meet in Thes.4:17 is the Greek word apantesis, which means we go up meet Him and then we [b]go down with all of them to the earth to be part of the Second Coming.
(See also my Topic on this BBS, "This meet is an apantesis".)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Gramajo320
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Texas Grandma,
Excellent posting to which I agree with you! God bless you!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
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One day the rapture will take place and the truth will be known. Now ,I trust in God and believe by faith the Word of God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
In response to the subject of this thread, I think it is true to say that the rapture does not precede the tribulation. I have read too many stories about Christians persecuted for their faith to believe that the rapture comes before persecution and trial. If revelation doesn’t allow for tribulation before the rapture something is wrong.
Can we really go out and tell Christians who may be going through persecution in real life they won’t need any spiritual armour to help them bear the tribulation, because the rapture will ensure they won’t suffer?
Amen! I agree. If one reads Voice of the Martyrs, and reads the world news, one can easily see that Christians are already being killed for their faith in many countries.
Mankind is set on a course of destruction, this is what the Tribulation is all about.
All the New Testament writers warn of trials and tribulations, and to be ready, and be aware of Satan's devices and to be armored.
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Gramajo320
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Texas Grandma,
A joyous Amen to that! Yes we'll all be together and what a wonderful time it will be! God bless you always!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
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During the tribulation, we will be safe in Heaven, enjoying the Marriage Super of the Lamb. There will be great rejoicing!
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Gramajo320
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Texas Grandma and His Grace,
Amen again! I so very much agree with your postings! Yes one day we'll all be together in heaven! God bless you always.
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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HisGrace
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Also loved your last post TexasGrandma (Second last now lol)
Look at the unbelievable lengths God went to save Noah and his family from the ravages of the great flood. I believe he also is going to stronger lengths to save his church from the ravages of the great tribulation.
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Yes there are many people going through personal tribulation. But The Great Tribulation is nothing like anything ever seen on this earth. Except for the flood no other time in Histroy has 1/3 of all people died from a single disastor. Nor has the sun ever grew so hot that people received serious burns from just stepping outside.
The Tribulation will be different from anything ever. Now we fight against the devil The tribulation will be God pouring out His wrath on the world. Two different things.
God will remove His Church before He pours out His bowls of warth on to the world. Instead of trying to prove the pre-trib wrong, we should be praying that as many as can will get saved before it is too late.
Betty,
Your post is good, becasue it tells, what you think the Tribulation consists of.
What you call the Tribulation is God's Wrath!
In Revelation it calls the Trumpet and Bowls-judgements of God. The events you wrote about occur with the trumpets and bowls. It starts after the 6th Seal is opened.
The Tribulation is a time of persecution of the saints of God, and a time of great trouble and sorrow, but it's not from God. God predicted it will come, as He knows the beginning from the end, but the Tribulation is not from God.
God's wrath comes because the whole world knows the Gospel, and they still reject Christ. The Church is raptured out before God's wrath falls on the world.
Tribulation comes from man, and the evilness of man.
If you read Matthew 24 and Revelation carefully,and do a concordance search on God's wrath, you will see that the Wrath of God is predicted in Joel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and other prophets and it's what occurs with the bowls and the trumpets.
The things contained in the first 4 seals have been happening all along.
I know you won't even read this, to try to understand where I'm coming from, but it's here anyway.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Gramajo320
God bless you, too, honey! Some day we will rejoice together in Heaven. May Jesus's return for His own, soon!
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gramajo320
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Texas Grandma,
Amen! Great posting which I totally agree with! God bless you!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Yes there are many people going through personal tribulation. But The Great Tribulation is nothing like anything ever seen on this earth. Except for the flood no other time in Histroy has 1/3 of all people died from a single disastor. Nor has the sun ever grew so hot that people received serious burns from just stepping outside.
The Tribulation will be different from anything ever. Now we fight against the devil The tribulation will be God pouring out His wrath on the world. Two different things.
God will remove His Church before He pours out His bowls of warth on to the world. Instead of trying to prove the pre-trib wrong, we should be praying that as many as can will get saved before it is too late.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
In response to the subject of this thread, I think it is true to say that the rapture does not precede the tribulation. I have read too many stories about Christians persecuted for their faith to believe that the rapture comes before persecution and trial. If revelation doesn’t allow for tribulation before the rapture something is wrong.
Can we really go out and tell Christians who may be going through persecution in real life they won’t need any spiritual armour to help them bear the tribulation, because the rapture will ensure they won’t suffer?
Yes, and there's many scriptures that make clear that we will be persecuted, as I have already given several, but no one has tried to explain them, or proove I'm wrong on them. Some key ones are the three resurrection question. How can there be three resurrections? No one has been able to address that because they simply can't. I have been able to address, in debates past (not on this board), almost every single argument that would support a pre-trib rapture. There's a few scriptures that don't make much sense to me, but I don't change my beliefs in things that either make sense, or don't make sense. There has to be some bit of concreteness about an argument before I can change my mind. Either that or the Holy Spirit has to show me, one of the two.
You know what though, people will find out when the time comes. Either pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib will be made known.
pre-trib will be shown to be false if we find out who the anti-christ is
mid-trib will be shown to be false when we see the temple being polluted and the mark of the beast become required
post-trib will be shown to be false if either of the other two happen before we get to post-trib.
Actually, I'm not a firm believer in post-trib. I'm a firm believer that we're here until the wrath of God is finished being poured out, or just about finished.
Either way, I'm looking for my redemption, Halleluyah
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Bloodbought
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In response to the subject of this thread, I think it is true to say that the rapture does not precede the tribulation. I have read too many stories about Christians persecuted for their faith to believe that the rapture comes before persecution and trial. If revelation doesn’t allow for tribulation before the rapture something is wrong.
Can we really go out and tell Christians who may be going through persecution in real life they won’t need any spiritual armour to help them bear the tribulation, because the rapture will ensure they won’t suffer?
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by Trenton D. Adams:
Now do you understand a little bit about what I'm talking about?
No
Then there's nothing I can do to help you.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Trenton D. Adams:
Now do you understand a little bit about what I'm talking about?
No
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Trenton D. Adams:
Paul was not caught up into heaven in body. This was in the spirit. I personally know two people that this has happened to. It was in the spirit, not in body. I'm not saying that it can't be in body, but that I don't believe there's any indication that it's anything other than in spirit, hence the word "vision". I believe it was the same with John. The scripture says "and immediately I was in the spirit". He was called up to heaven, and to God's throne room. But, he didn't not go in body.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's not exactly what the Words says:
2 Cor. 12:
1: It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3: And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4: How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5: Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
I know that it says Paul wasn't sure what happened. What I meant to say is I believe, what I was saying. The majority of cases of people going to see heaven, the throne room, angels, etc, are visions or dreams, not raptures. So, my point was that we can't know for sure on the Paul one. So we should only state I believe such and such.
I shouldn't have stared this tangent, ahhhhh. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I REALLY wish this message board was threaded.
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Trenton D. Adams, everyone's comments have been well backed with scriptures. I don't how you can accuse anyone of going off into tangents.
I never said they didn't back everything with scripture. I mean sure, everyone did back everything with scripture, whether their interpretations were correct or not, is not the point. But, what I'm talking about is that they are not addressing people's points. We need to address people's points, as I'm doing now with you. I could just post a whole whack of scripture and comments that aren't related to your point, and then I would be doing the same thing. But, I like to address people's specific points so that they can have answers to them, and see what I think about the points they've raised.
Here's a hypothetical example.
I talk about there only being two resurrections, and not three. Now lets make believe you replied to it and posted scriptures about the judgement after the last days, or the seven trumpets, or something like that. Yes, those things are not tangents to the major topic of end times, but you didn't exactly address my specific concern, now did you?
So, no one, as of yet, has addressed any of my points by replying to them individually. What they have done is flood me with a bunch of information that is not even coming close to addressing my concerns.
With that said, I have addressed some of people's arguments. I couldn't address them all because it would take my time away from Yashua, as it already is. A structured debate would be a lot more easier to follow, as well as be better use of my time.
Now do you understand a little bit about what I'm talking about?
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WhiteEagle
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I just decided to log off, and then I read this thread.
Trenton, you are right On!
I agree with much of what you wrote. I only disagree about who the Bride is. The Church is the Bride, and scripture is quite clear about that.
One can't mention anything about the Rapture occurring after the Tribulation here.
I have also studied the scriptures on my own about 10 years ago, to SEE if what I had been taught about Pre-trib was true and where those "facts" were in the Bible.
I couldn't find anything promising that the Rapture had to occur before the Tribulation. In fact quite the opposite shows up in many scriptures.
I'm convinced that the Church will not go through the Wrath of God which commences with the Trumpet and Vial Judgements.
The Church will go through the Tribulation which is a separate event from the Trumpets and Vials.
Once the Church is Raptured up and caught away for the marriage supper of the Lamb, then... The Wrath of God is poured out on the world.
The Jewish people will be those who are kept in safety by God, even during His wrath. The Jewish people who are part of the 144,000 and those who believe their testimony and those who believe the testimony of the Two witnesses. Many of the Jewish people will not take the Mark of the Beast, but they won't be raptured as they have not believed yet in Christ. But they will be part of those who do not get the sores from the mark.
God always has His remnant of Abraham on earth, and even in the Wrath of God days, not all will be destroyed.
Anyway, as you can read for yourself, the ones who are Pre-trib are rooted in and cover their spiritual ears.
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Niedziejkore
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I think a big problem on this board is when someone responds to me with a scripture, but does not explain how they interperet it. So... I read one thing and the poster's point is totally misinterperteted. Just an observation
Also i agree with Trent's post:
quote:
Lastly, we all need to learn how to debate properly. A debate is not something where you post tangent sub topics of the main topic. A structured debate is not one where you just flood people with so much information that they can't, or won't, reply. A structured debate needs to be just that, structured. People's points must be addressed, not flooded with other moot (hypothetical) points. With that said, this topic did not need to be so long if people would have address individual points of my original post rather than simply ignoring what I said, and posting something else.
Trent buddy, I have to say that from being here for over a year, I have nearly lost my sanity in this board's environment. Structured debate here? My respose: *maniacal laughter*
What's worse is that i get caught in it easily and fall into the tangents. Like, a conversation will start about war protesters and halfway it gets into pre/mid/post trib, and ends with a debate on abortion.
But I welcome you to the board.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
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Caretaker
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Trenton D. Adams:
Paul was not caught up into heaven in body. This was in the spirit. I personally know two people that this has happened to. It was in the spirit, not in body. I'm not saying that it can't be in body, but that I don't believe there's any indication that it's anything other than in spirit, hence the word "vision". I believe it was the same with John. The scripture says "and immediately I was in the spirit". He was called up to heaven, and to God's throne room. But, he didn't not go in body.
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That's not exactly what the Words says:
2 Cor. 12:
1: It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3: And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4: How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5: Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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HisGrace
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Trenton D. Adams, everyone's comments have been well backed with scriptures. I don't how you can accuse anyone of going off into tangents.
There are a number of Raptures mentioned in the Bible. My post mentions Jesus' first rapture into heaven. Also it speaks about Jesus preparing a place in heaven. Then he comes back for his church, at which time they are raptured up into heaven. Then finally at the end of tribulation, it mentions how the Bride will come down again with Jesus. At this time Jesus will reign for for 1000 years.
Another scripture backing Rapture before tribulation
Luke 21: 34-36 Watch out! Don't let me find you living in careless ease and drunkenses and filled with the worries of this life. Don't let that day catch you unaware. as in a trap. For that day will come upon everyone living on the earth. Keep a constant watch. And pray if possible you may escape these horrors and stand before the son of Man.
Second Coming of Christ, when he comes back to earth to reign for 1000 years.
Rev. 19:6-8
Then I heard again what sounded like the shout of a huge crowd, or the roar of mighty ocean waves, or the crash of loud thunder. Hallelujah? For the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns. Let us be glad and rejoice and honor him. For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb and his bride has prepared herself She is permitted to wear the finest white linen. (Fine linen represents the good deeds done by the people of God.
I hope if you are going to respond to this post, Trenton, that you have a good Bible-based backing for your remarks.
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Perhaps, Sir, God calmed my fears because Paul was right. We will be raptured out before the tribulation. If the rapture were to take place after the tribulation, then it would not be like a thief int he night. Then we could set a calender by it. We could say okay the 7 year peace aggrement has happend so now we just wait 7 years for the rapture. But, Jesus, Himself said it will come as a thief in the night and He was talking to the discples not unsaved people.
But, I am leaving this thread, just as I plan to leave this earth when the trumpet, blows.
I am waiting eagerly for the blessed event.
betty
The thief in the night, and the post-trib don't contradict each other. We still won't know the hour or the day. Yashua never said that we wouldn't know the season. There's other scriptures that in fact say that we will. Paul wrote that it should not be as a thief in the night to us.
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freaknpv
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
The Bible tells us to be on the watch.
Matt. 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Matthew 25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Mark 13: 32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back–whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
HisGrace,
The reason I believe as I do is that if you read the whole passages, it says
"42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.) 45"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods Matt 24:42-47
also
"13"Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.) 14"For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord's money. 19After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20"So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, "Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.' 21His lord said to him, "Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.' 22He also who had received two talents came and said, "Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.' 23His lord said to him, "Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'
24"Then he who had received the one talent came and said, "Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'
26"But his lord answered and said to him, "You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29"For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'Matt. 25:13-30
I see it as being infinatley(sp) more important to be that Faithful and wise servant, which after those verses you used to talk of watching , Jesus described, the faithful and wise servant isn't just sitting and watching , he is serving and making gain for the kingdom.Both of these passages spell that out very clearly. I dont know about you but I dont want to be so busy want to be raptured that I lose sight of what really matters
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Head in Heaven, Fingers in the Mire
Posts: 25 | From: Cali. | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gramajo320
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Trenton D. Adams,
Whether the postings are short or long you can learn very much from them if you are willing to carefully read each and every posting! Others do know what they are talking about and they are led by the Holy Spirit in what they post.
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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Trenton D. Adams
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HisGrace and CareTaker, you are both goin off on side tangents. No one has denied that there's a catch up to Christ in the air, or rapture as we say.
The question is when.
Now, in response to caretaker's comments. My comments are off topic, but I wanted to ponder these things.
Isaiah 6
What makes you think this wasn't Isaiah being caught up in the "spirit" like so often happens througout scripture?
Paul was not caught up into heaven in body. This was in the spirit. I personally know two people that this has happened to. It was in the spirit, not in body. I'm not saying that it can't be in body, but that I don't believe there's any indication that it's anything other than in spirit, hence the word "vision". I believe it was the same with John. The scripture says "and immediately I was in the spirit". He was called up to heaven, and to God's throne room. But, he didn't not go in body.
HisGrace, could you perhaps address the idea of there being three resurrections then? I mean surely any honest bible student can't simply ignore the fact that there's only two resurrections, and not three, am I right?
So, I really would like to see an explanation of that. So far, with all of the debate I've had on the internet about this topic, no one has been able to address this point. In defense of their own views of scripture they simply post tangent scriptures that don't even come close to addressing it. I mean I suppose it's possible that these small parts of the bible were simply miss-translated, but I haven't seen any evidence to the fact yet.
Lastly, we all need to learn how to debate properly. A debate is not something where you post tangent sub topics of the main topic. A structured debate is not one where you just flood people with so much information that they can't, or won't, reply. A structured debate needs to be just that, structured. People's points must be addressed, not flooded with other moot (hypothetical) points. With that said, this topic did not need to be so long if people would have address individual points of my original post rather than simply ignoring what I said, and posting something else.
Are we all in agreement that only Yashua's blood can make us clean? Are we all in agreement that no matter when He calls us back, we need to be ready? LOL
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
I have devoted many many years to eschatology. I have studied extensively all five schools of thought / theories on end times and the timing of events.
Personally, I respect the views of those who have made a more thorough study than myself, or I would find myself playing a guessing game, because the scriptures can be very confusing.
A question answered by Dr. Hilton Sutton, who has studied eschatology for over 50 years, especially the Book of Revelation.
Q. How do we know that there will be a Rapture?
A. Hebrews 9:28 says, Unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
This verse clearly declares that Jesus’ appearance to those who look for Him has nothing to do with sin but with finishing their salvation. The final act of their bodies becoming incorruptible, immortal, and glorified is the finished work of salvation. This will happen at Jesus’ appearance as He receives the Church unto Himself. (1 Cor. 15:51-53.)
Jesus said, If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also (John 14:3). This statement certainly declares a change of location for Jesus’ followers. He is going to take them unto Himself.
Jesus also said, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:36). Without question, this statement establishes that the followers of Jesus who are watching and praying will escape by being quickly removed from their earthly scene. They will escape all the events of the future Tribulation and stand with Jesus. By no stretch of the imagination does the word escape mean “to be hidden away.” It means “to go quickly out from.”
Consider other Bible truths which picture the Church in heaven. The Church will get to sit down in Jesus’ throne as He is seated with His Father in heaven. (Rev. 3:21.) John describes the Church in heaven watching the preparation of the Wedding to be followed by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. (Rev. 19:1-10.) The prophet Zechariah tells us that the saints return with Christ from heaven on the final day of the Tribulation. (Zech. 14:5; confirmed by Rev. 17:14 and 19:14.)
No Bible student can dispute the clear-cut picture the Bible gives of the Rapture. Do you know why? There are too many Rapture events described in the Scriptures for any honest Bible student to deny the Rapture.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Caretaker
I owe you an apology, dear. After I went to bed last night, I realized that I should have mentioned your name, when I talked about the others that keep this board going. You are here reguarly and always have indept stuff to say.
I am so sorry. It is not that I don't think about you, it is just that I dont' always remember names. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Caretaker
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This was posted a long time ago by Kindgo, and I found it to be fascinating:
Enoch—Genesis 5
Elijah—2 Kings 6
Isaiah—Isaiah 6
Philip—Acts 8
Paul—2 Corinthians 12
• Two Witnesses—Revelation 11
• Male Child (Jesus)—Revelation 12
Enoch
As far as the biblical account records, Enoch became the first individual to be raptured and taken to be with the Lord. Genesis 5:24 records the remarkable event of Enoch’s translation to heaven. "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him" (Genesis 5:24). What does it mean that Enoch "was not, for God took Him?" It means that Enoch was translated, without dying, and went directly to be with the Lord. Enoch was raptured, to use the language of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 or he was "taken," to use the language of John 14:3. That Enoch was raptured or translated to heaven is clear when compared with the dismal refrain "and he died" that accompanies the legacy of the other patriarchs mentioned in Genesis 5.
Enoch’s rapture is confirmed by the divinely inspired New Testament commentary found in Hebrews 11:5 which says, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God." The New Testament word "taken up" in Hebrews is the same one selected by those who translated the Old Testament into Greek. This word conveys the idea of being removed from one place to another. Thus, it is clear that both the Genesis passage and the thrice-repeated reference to Enoch in Hebrews teaches the idea of translation to heaven.
Elijah
Elijah is often seen as the first and thus representative of Israel’s post-law prophets. He will make some kind of visitation during the tribulation (Malachi 4:5) and was joined with Moses as the two from the past who appeared at Christ’s transfiguration (Matthew 17:3). Like Enoch, Elijah was translated to heaven without dying. 2 Kings 2 records this interesting event with an emphasis upon the mode of Elijah’s transportation to heaven. 2 Kings 2:1 says he was taken "by a whirlwind to heaven." In 2:11 the whirlwind is further described as "a chariot of fire and horses of fire." No doubt this was an appearance of the Shechinah glory of God since Hebrews 1:7 says, "and of the angels He says, ‘Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire.’" God objectively marked Elijah as a genuine prophet by identifying him with the glory of God and his rapture to heaven.
We can see a pattern developing. Enoch was raptured before judgment while Noah remained and was preserved through the judgment. Elijah was raptured while Elisha remained behind. How does this relate to the rapture of the church?
Isaiah
Isaiah was called into the throne room of God (Isaiah 6). Since this was a physical transportation of Isaiah from earth to heaven and back to earth again, it most likely took place via a rapture. Why do I think so?
Old Testament prophets had a varied job description. One of their primary responsibilities was to expound upon and interpret how the nation was doing in reference to the Mosaic Covenant. Israel’s prophets were not social reformers, as some liberals have suggested. Instead, they provided a Divine viewpoint of Israel’s history from the reference point of the sanctions provided in Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26. If the nation kept covenant and obeyed the Lord, then the kinds of blessings promised in Deuteronomy 28:1–14 would "shall come upon you and overtake you" (Deuteronomy 28:2). When Israel’s disobedience would mount, God would call and commission a prophet to remind and warn the nation of their responsibility to obey the terms of their covenant. God, through the prophets, would warn them that if they persisted in rebellion then He would execute the harshest curse provided for in the sanctions—expulsion from the land of Israel (Leviticus 26:27–39; Deuteronomy 28:49–68). When the nation began to reach the point of continued disobedience, God’s prophet would bring a lawsuit against the nation for violation of their contract with God.
It appears in the Old Testament Prophets that God is following the pattern of a certain protocol common in the Ancient World in His dealings with Israel. Understanding this background provides a framework for seeing tremendous significance in events like Isaiah’s call into the throne room of God (Isaiah 6) and Elijah’s "rapture" to heaven via the fiery chariot (2 Kings 2). This supports the notion that Isaiah was raptured to heaven as part of his throne room experience.
Jesus Christ
Revelation 12:5 speaks in the form of a symbol that represents important aspects of the career of Christ. Within this picture, Christ is called the "male child" who it is said "was caught up to God and to His throne (Rev. 12:5). This picture looks back to the ascension of Christ that is described in Acts 1:8-11, where Christ ascends to heaven in a cloud. Thus, because Revelation 12:5 uses the word for rapture, this means that Christ’s Acts 1:11 ascension is view as a rapture, a trip from planet earth to heaven.
Philip
Philip, who was "snatched away" by the Spirit of the Lord after evangelizing the Ethiopian eunuch and "found himself at Azotus" (Acts 8:39–40), which is located in what we call today the Gaza Strip. Philip was not taken to heaven, but was physically transported from the Judean wilderness to the modern-day Gaza Strip area. This is the only example of a rapture in the Bible where the subject is not transported to heaven. Here he is taken from point A to point B upon earth.
Paul
Twice Paul mentions that he was "caught up [raptured] to the third heaven" and received "visions and revelations of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 12:1–4). Paul’s heavenly trip reminds us of Isaiah’s throne room commission (Isaiah 6:1–13). Perhaps a rapture was involved in this incident. Paul, via rapture, received a commission, message, and revelation that became the foundation for the unique purpose for the church during this age, "which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:5). Apparently, Paul’s heavenly visit was such a heady experience, the Lord gave him "a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me—to keep me from exalting myself! (2 Corinthians 12:7).
Rapture of The Church
This is the most well known rapture in the Bible to the average Christian. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Of all the raptures in the Bible, this is the first time that our Lord will take a large group to heaven in a single instance, without first facing death. This is such a clear teaching in the Bible that even those Christians who do not emphasize the rapture as a distinct event, merge it into to the second coming in some way. Yet, this is the event that will take place before the seven-year tribulation.
Two Witnesses
Reminiscent of Elijah, the two witnesses during the tribulation are summoned "into heaven in the cloud" (Revelation 11:12). Certainly these special Divinely commissioned and protected messengers fulfill the role as ambassadors for our Lord to the Jewish nation during the tribulation. Along the same line, the "male child" is said to be "caught up [raptured] to God and His throne" in Revelation 12:5.
The Bible provides us with seven citations of the rapture of individuals throughout history. This provides a strong support that a group—the church—will be raptured in the future as 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches. Some opponents of the rapture seek to suggest that the worldwide disappearance of millions would be too odd to consider as a realistic possibility. Such is not the case if the Bible is the criterion for establishing possibilities. In fact, the Bible reveals a significant number of raptures or trips directly to heaven that provides assurance that God can and will take millions at one moment in time. Are you ready for the rapture?
Types
1 Corinthians 10:11, speaking of some Old Testament events says, "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, . . ." The word "example" is from the Greek word tupos, which means "form, figure, or pattern." The English word "type" is developed from the Greek word and provides the basis for why Bible students coined the term "typology." Typology refers to Old Testament patterns that illustrate doctrine—usually New Testament doctrine. It is wrong to teach a doctrine from a type. Types serve only to illustrate a doctrine that is taught clearly, or directly from the biblical text.
Old Testament raptures, while not teaching the New Testament truth of the rapture of the church, do provide us with Old Testament types, patterns, or illustrations of the rapture. Thus, Enoch and Elijah stand as types of the rapture of the church. I believe that the purpose for both Old Testament and New Testament raptures come into clearer focus when seen within the framework of the covenantal protocol of recalling one’s ambassador from a distant land.
Ambassadors for Christ
Paul describes New Testament believers as "ambassadors for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:20). As I have noted earlier, an ambassador is one who represents a dignitary, often in a foreign land. Corresponding with Isaiah’s commission in the Old Testament, the church has been given its Great Commission through Christ’s apostles (Matthew 28:16–20; Mark 16:14–18; Luke 24:44–49; Acts 1:6–10). This commission includes the command to preach the gospel throughout the world until the end of the current age. Instead of just a local responsibility, as with Israel in the Old Testament, the New Testament church has a global responsibility as Christ’s ambassadors to entreat and beg humanity to "be reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:20). Paul ask the Ephesians church to pray for him "that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak" (Ephesians 6:19–20). The primary issue during the current church age between God and all mankind is the issue of belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ. When, in God’s estimation, the world reaches the point of global rejection of Christ, then, as with Israel before her global deportation, God will recall His ambassador—the church—before the judgment of the tribulation. Since the church is described as heavenly citizens (Philippians 3:20), it makes sense that she is raptured before God’s war commences against "those who dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 12:12; 13:8, 14; 14:6). This is one of many purposes for the New Testament doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture of the church.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Perhaps, Sir, God calmed my fears because Paul was right. We will be raptured out before the tribulation. If the rapture were to take place after the tribulation, then it would not be like a thief int he night. Then we could set a calender by it. We could say okay the 7 year peace aggrement has happend so now we just wait 7 years for the rapture. But, Jesus, Himself said it will come as a thief in the night and He was talking to the discples not unsaved people.
But, I am leaving this thread, just as I plan to leave this earth when the trumpet, blows.
I am waiting eagerly for the blessed event.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Favor,
This time last year, this same argument was on this board. I prayed for a week for God to reveal to me if I had been taught wrong. I have been taught in the Assembly of God Church and the Baptist Church that the rapture would be a pre-trib rapture. I sought God in prayer, asking Him to reveal to me, if I had been led astray by my Pastors in the past. God put a peace in my heart that what I had been taught was true. I can now relax and not fear the triublation because God is put in my heart the assurance that the Church will be taken up to Heaven before the tribulation.
Does that mean I will never know heart ache. Of course not, but the tribulation is something so awful that no one wants to be here. I am thankful that Jesus will appear in the clouds and the Church will be changed in the twinling of an eye and be raptured up to Jesus in the clouds.
You say you felt peace in your heart. We (because I'm guilty too) have to stop going by our feelings. If we don't hear the direct voice of God, combined with scripture, we don't have a foundation for knowing the truth.
Perhaps the Lord just calmed your heart on the matter so as to not worry about it? I know he did this for me when I believed in pre-trib rapture. I really wanted to believe in pre-trib rapture, but the Lord absolutely shattered my beliefs. I thank God for that, because now He's preparing me for what's ahead.
I'm going to post something on the "Bible Topics" board this evening. I hope that all of you will read it. It's an explanation of how the Lord threw me into this study, and how He's shown me the truth of the matter. Hopefully my supernatural experience will be larger than words. It shouldn't be larger than scripture, but should cast light on the scriptures.
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Trenton D. Adams
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quote:
Originally posted by LaurieFL:
**In closing, trenton, welcome to the boards. I would however express my concern at the fact that you come here, not knowing anyone, and have the nerve (for lack of a better word) to declare that you *know* the truth, when there are many who have studied the Bible for many, many years who believe differently that you do. I am of the opinion that this issue is not necessarily clear, and that it is not fruitful to accuse others of being wrong. I believe in a literal, physical millenial reign of Christ on this earth, and thus dismiss amillenialist beliefs, but I believe the rapture is one of those doctrines where we are wise to discuss different views in a gentle and tolerant manner, always prayerfully keeping our sights on Christ.
Thanks.
I do, for almost certain, know that I am right about the post-tribulation rapture. I should try to be careful how I word things, because christians in particular tend to read into things a lot. But, I am completely open minded, and open to the fact that I may have thought I heard from the Lord when I haven't. I wish others had this same mentality. Paul had it. He said I know nothing except Christ Crucified. That's where I feel that I am. Although I have very strong opinions, including in this topic, I am completely open to being wrong, and possibly thinking that I've heard from the Lord when I haven't.
Those who think they know things should humble themselves daily to be sure that they do. Those who think they are wise need to become as fools so that the Lord can teach them the truth of the matter. We can go on for fourty years believing a doctrine that is not even close to true.
Either way, pre/mid/post trib, I sure hope we're all ready for it.
Why people think the tribulation is a fearful event, I don't know. It will be a glorious time for Yashua's followers.
In response to people talking about christians praying during the tribulation. I have no doubt that the Lord will not suffer them to pray against the anti-christ, but to pray for those that would be saved.
Again I say, I'm not interested in what makes sense, I'm only interested in the truth. I wish more people felt this way. Oh well.
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Trenton D. Adams
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Originally posted by Favor Minded:
quote:
Originally posted by Trenton...
I see that you're interpreting scriptures without a sure foundation (for this topic) first. In order to be able to properly interpret the Word, we have to have a concrete foundation. That means that we either have to have heard from God, showing us exactly what certain scriptures mean, or we must have some clear scriptures to create that foundation for us. I have had both. I heard the Word of the Lord first, and the scriptures to back it up came second.
Seems pretty straight forward - Defensive? Not at all ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I know the truth
As for being direct -
I can tell you exactly what you believe and why, scripture for scripture
I can do the same for Mid Tribbers -
I can do the same for Preterists and aMillenialists -
God has given me wisdom and confirmation for more than 40 years of the truth...
I have had confirmation time and again from the Lord - No amount of Post tribulationalism will convince me as only the Lord can do that.
So, what I was saying is that your foundation is not "sure" for this topic. I didn't say you don't hear from God. In fact, you probably have heard from God to some degree, even on this topic. Some of the things you've mentioned are true, to my knowledge. But just not all of them. But then again, not one of us will be 100% true on most topics.
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HisGrace
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Originally posted by freaknpv:
I personally dont care , pre,mid,post or Jesus coming back in 20 minutes. I think we should be seeking to follow our master and not be to concerned about when the rapture will be, or if there will be one, Jesus only asked us to be doing His work not plotting and planning and debating about the time of His return.
The Bible tells us to be on the watch.
Matt. 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Matthew 25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Mark 13: 32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back–whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
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LaurieFL
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I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught that the pre-Trib rapture was a certain thing. Since returnin to my Lord as an adult, I became exposed to ideas in theology that I had never heard before, such as post-Trib, mid-Trib, amillienialism, etc. At first, I was aghast as I had never even heard of such things. However, hearing the conflicting theological ideas motivated me to do my own study though, which was a good thing.
The result of my studies to date has been this: I firmly believe that I do not know when Jesus is coming back, but I firmly believe that He loves me and redeemed me and that He will be with me no matter what comes before me. We have no guarantee that we will not be martyred for our faith even before the Great Tribulation. To think so is a preposterous American belief, as many in foreign countries have died for not renouncing Christ as their Savior. More Christians have been martyred tis century than all combined in the previous 1900 years.
Anyway, studying scripture and prophecy and reading about the Kingdom just make me yearn all the more for my Messiah. I pray that He will come back soon, while at the same time thanking Him for being merciful and tarrying so that more may be saved. Only God knows when enough will be enough, and the end will come then.
I do believe that the examples of God's sparing Noah and Lot have some merit and also the verse that says that God's children are not appointed unto wrath. Miss Betty's example of the decsription of two men working in a field and one disappearing is also indicative of a rapture. I also agree that a rapture makes no sense if it occurs after the tribulation, because there would be no need for one. However, I am still unclear on whether a rapture will even occur at all, bsaed upon my Biblical studies. I have hesitated to read works by men (except fiction) because I find that it is best to have a firm foundation in scripture and prayer before introducing others interprations into the mix.
**In closing, trenton, welcome to the boards. I would however express my concern at the fact that you come here, not knowing anyone, and have the nerve (for lack of a better word) to declare that you *know* the truth, when there are many who have studied the Bible for many, many years who believe differently that you do. I am of the opinion that this issue is not necessarily clear, and that it is not fruitful to accuse others of being wrong. I believe in a literal, physical millenial reign of Christ on this earth, and thus dismiss amillenialist beliefs, but I believe the rapture is one of those doctrines where we are wise to discuss different views in a gentle and tolerant manner, always prayerfully keeping our sights on Christ.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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God bless you. You, Bro. Ripp, and Linda are the very heart of this board. I appreciate all of you.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Favor Minded
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AMEN Sister Betty!
Yes - It is difficult because there will always be those who try to make you believe you do not hear from God, or that you have been led astray.
The bottom line as you know is that faith in the timing is truly not important from an evangelistic perspective, as teaching Christ crucified is the great commission.
Thanks for being there for us - You are a wonderful inspiration to us all!!
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
Favor,
This time last year, this same argument was on this board. I prayed for a week for God to reveal to me if I had been taught wrong. I have been taught in the Assembly of God Church and the Baptist Church that the rapture would be a pre-trib rapture. I sought God in prayer, asking Him to reveal to me, if I had been led astray by my Pastors in the past. God put a peace in my heart that what I had been taught was true. I can now relax and not fear the triublation because God is put in my heart the assurance that the Church will be taken up to Heaven before the tribulation.
Does that mean I will never know heart ache. Of course not, but the tribulation is something so awful that no one wants to be here. I am thankful that Jesus will appear in the clouds and the Church will be changed in the twinling of an eye and be raptured up to Jesus in the clouds.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Favor Minded
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trenton...
I see that you're interpreting scriptures without a sure foundation (for this topic) first. In order to be able to properly interpret the Word, we have to have a concrete foundation. That means that we either have to have heard from God, showing us exactly what certain scriptures mean, or we must have some clear scriptures to create that foundation for us. I have had both. I heard the Word of the Lord first, and the scriptures to back it up came second.
Seems pretty straight forward - Defensive? Not at all
I know the truth
As for being direct -
I can tell you exactly what you believe and why, scripture for scripture
I can do the same for Mid Tribbers -
I can do the same for Preterists and aMillenialists -
God has given me wisdom and confirmation for more than 40 years of the truth...
I have had confirmation time and again from the Lord - No amount of Post tribulationalism will convince me as only the Lord can do that.
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Gramajo320
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Favorminded,
Amen! Your in depth postings truly show that you are so very much led by the Holy Spirit and your postings of the truth are very beneficial for ever so many of us! God bless you always!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I have found the opposite to be true. I have found people who believe in the Post Trib rapture to be angry and defensife.
It makes no sense for the rapture to take place at the same time as the Second Coming. Why would meet Jesus in the air at the same time, He is coming down to earth. The only way it makes sense is if we go to Heaven before the trib. I believe we will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb, during the triublation.
If you do not believe in the rapture at all, then you are calling Jesus a liar for it is His own words that say two men will be walking up a hill and one will disapear and one will be left behind.
I have gone to Bro. Favor and Bro. Ripps sites many times and I agree with them.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Trenton D. Adams
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I just re-read my post. I'm sorry, but I in no way said that you don't hear from God. Not once, in any way.
I have found that those that believe in pre-tribulation rapture are indeed very defensive. They don't like to respond to people's arguments, they just like to post more about what they believe is the truth instead of being direct. It's a tactic that is probably not intentional, but it does happen with pre-trib believers. They also tend to read into the things that people say and become offended at something that isn't there. They cling to what they believe, even without that concrete evidence that one needs. You know, the tangent scripture here, the mis-interpreted one there. But, they don't link any scriptures together that give absolute concreteness. On that note, you haven't directly replied to the three resurrection problem.
So far, you are exhibiting some of these things. Step back for a second, take a deep breath, question yourself in every way possible, and assume that I'm not attacking you. I'm a christian here. I'll do the same as stated.
You know, Tim LaHaye's "The Rapture" was quite amusing. I really loved how he claimed that the non-pre-tribers were vehmenant, and angry, and attacked people. Then, right after that, a few pages later, he absolutely started bashing people that don't believe in pre-trib. I almost thought he believed that we're heretics. LOL.
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