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Topic: The Founding Fathers/ Revolution/Church and State
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Favor Minded
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posted
Actually 2tim - Let me correct what Strawman means -
In general, a strawman is an object, document, person, or argument that temporarily stands in for and is intended to be "knocked down" by something more substantial.
The "something more substantial" would be by you, in your use of the term...
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WhiteEagle
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posted
To 2 tim:
So there won't be any question of my above mispelling:
I find you to have a "Pompous" attitude.
I hope that doesn't invade your sermons.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
My point 2tim is that I'm trying to get you to see that I think you're full of hubris.
I guess that since you aren't willing to learn new ideas right now, I'm probably wasting my time.
You were mad at immigrants that come to America and leave trash behind and take money they earn home to their country. I just find that to be a ponpous attitude.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
by 2tim: I don't want to hear about an illegal immigrants woes - don't you see? When lawbreakers enter the country things go up. Crime rate up. Services to support him that I pay for up.
Which brings me to another point. These criminals (we can agree that's what someone who breaks the law is...right?) these criminals often have more rights than many citizens!! Families who have sent sons and fathers into harms way to paint the red stripes on Old Glory and they have more trouble getting help from the Government than many illegals!!??
This is what YOU wrote 2tim. It appears you do blame immigrants and not the locals too.
Also I've visited the Dominican Republic. It's a beautiful place and the people are warm and friendly and they have more rights there then we do. No wonder the person from the DR was complaining while he was here, I'll bet he was disappointed at how little freedoms we have here compared to his homeland. Yes they are poor in the DR, but material things aren't always the most important things.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Favor Minded
unregistered
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posted
quote:
2tim writes -
I know a strawman when I see it, but I'll play.
I didn't say all communally irresponsable people are immigrants.
I didn't say that all problems come from outside.
And Maine is just where I live now. If you think that driving a cab in Boston or being a tourguide in Salem or being a ski instructor at Sunday River or a comedian in Cambridge or a store detective in gang territory or reposessing cars or tracking down bail jumpers or living behind a dumpster or any of the other places the Lord has led me has left me naive I would be forced to disagree.
And you are preparing sermons? To call people strawmen when you yourself are indeed one? Particularly in the area of Prophecy?
And you called it mockery - Seems to me you are the mocker now....
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Phoebe
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posted
Dear 2tim,
Thank you for allowing the opportunity for genuine fellowship. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Well, I'm not sure how "neat" my dispossessed (of their lands in Scotland) ancestors found banishment to Northern Ireland, but it was better than the alternative London offered them - death. ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
I thought you were quoting Cardinal John Henry Newman, but I wanted to be certain before replying. In case the Church of England had another famous Cardinal Newman.
John Henry Newman was an Anglican bishop, climbing the ladder right to the top of church leadership. That is, until the day he accepted a challenge by a Catholic colleague in an ongoing public debate to prove the Catholic Church wrong. He undertook serious, painstaking scholarship - which, to most people, is about as interesting as watching grass grow - to prove, once and for all, that the Catholic Church was in error, error, error. I don't have a reference handy as to how long Cardinal Newman's research went on, but at the end of his investigation, Cardinal Newman became a Catholic.
The Cardinal did indeed say what you quote, 2tim, but your source lifted it out of context. His statement is meant in the same mindset as Rabbi Gamaliel's challenge to the rest of the Sanhedrin when he defended Paul and Peter against the death-penalty charges they faced in the Book of Acts.
That's why I continuously remind board participants that second-hand sources are not always reliable. It's far preferable to go to "the horse's mouth", so to speak, and even then, in the case of what the Catholic Church does or does not "really" teach, it needs to be 1.marked with the imprimatur (though not all reliable material has an imprimatur and then you just have to know your sources) and 2. up-to-date. For instance, it would never occur to me imagine that I know anything about the organization of the Conservative Baptist Church, unless I go to the source (them) and that the material is recent and the contents are approved by them. Only then do I reasonably believe I have a reliable source concerning what they are all about.
In Christ Jesus,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Phoebe
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posted
Dear 2tim,
Jacobites, eh? No wonder we got off to a fiery start!
You are aware that many of the Scots who were "resettled" in Northern Ireland were dispossessed Highlanders who fought with Rob Roy in an unsuccessful bid to win back Scotland's freedom from the English Jacobites and their Anglo-Scots allies? The Crown didn't want to kill most of them outright, but they didn't want them to remain in Scotland, either. According to my grandmother, her people were among that group.
As she said on more than one occasion, "God bless American where the Scots and the Irish and everyone else of good will can settle their differences away from an English Crown that would keep them at one another's throat for its own gain."
That chapter of English/Scots/Irish history is a very good example of what I meant by religion used as a political tool.
Thank you for the link to "The Two Babylons" ; I appreciate it.
A question for you, in another thread, 2tim, you quoted a Cardinal Newman. Do you happen to have his first name? Thank you.
In our Lord Jesus,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by 2tim:
money more than SomoliansNo, what I am referring to are the men who move here - their families stay in (again for instance...) the DR and the father sends his paycheck home. Not because they're needy but because that's where they live and because he and his family hate the US and would never live here perminently.
After they've made enough to build their home and get things set - they leave. And those thousands of dollars per family are gone. But not before they've thrown a bunch of trash all over the place and turned their neighborhood here in the US into a dump.
I'm not guessing here, I've worked with many examples of this.
Which brings me to another point. These criminals (we can agree that's what someone who breaks the law is...right?) these criminals often have more rights than many citizens!! Families who have sent sons and fathers into harms way to paint the red stripes on Old Glory and they have more trouble getting help from the Government than many illegals!!??
There is something wrong with that. And if you don't know what I'm talking about I'm referring to tuition assistance and and things of this nature.
I was surrounded by such folk at a job a while back. You know what really got me? All the while - they talked about how much they hated the US. I always told them the same thing.
There's the door.
I love you for your enthusiasm my friend ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) - but I think that you are a little bit naive.
2tim [/QB]
Dear 2 tim:
I'm sorry I had to laugh.
I see you are from Maine, so am I. I've seen many native Mainers live in dumps and leave the nieghborhood a mess, and they are American citizens. I've seen native Mainers who are so Ignorant they make Maine seem like a third world country. It's a tradition (I guess) in certain counties in Maine to keep the junk cars in the front yard. People live in shacks and don't have running water. These are Americans.
I mean we really don't see that many immigrants up here. True we had an influx recently of Somalians, but I bet they don't stay, it's too cold. Many immigrants are too smart to come here.
Perhaps you are naive if you think those problems only come from the outside.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Phoebe
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Member # 3937
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posted
Dear 2tim and LaurieFl,
My apologies for taking all day to get back to the two of you.
"Mary, Queen of Scots" by Frasier -
From an early age I understood what Shakespeare meant when he wrote, "The past is prologue". We can hope to understand the present only by accurately understanding the past. Nice to know their are other history buffs around.
My mother's ancestors have been here since the formation of the colonies. They were one of the families to found New Amsterdam.
According to my paternal grandmother, who has since passed away, I count both Scots and Irish ancestors on her side of my father's family. They were Scots settled in Northern Ireland to "colonize" it for the British Crown. In the years to come, they intermarried with the local population. They came to America to get away from - in their view - needless sectarian violence that London cultivated between the "Scots Irish" and the "Irish Irish" for political reasons.
"Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation" is by Joseph J. Ellis, has won at least one prize since its release a couple of years ago and is now available in trade paperback.
Writing - I'm not published yet, but hope, God willing, that it may happen before long. I've written a short story, as well as an inspirational piece that I'm in the process of submitting to Catholic Digest.
"Crossing the Tiber: Evangelical Christians Discover the Historical Church" - I think you'll like it because it has lots of footnotes for further investigation. Every historian, amateur or professional, worth his/her salt likes footnotes.
What I mentioned earlier concerning a Jewish rabbi - Many years ago I owned a paperback, now out of print, titled "Basic Judaism" by Rabbi Milton Steinberg. He wrote of the beauty of liturgical worship and its benefits, especially in how it connects us to the past. He went on to write, however, that it becomes incumbent on each participant to "own it", to be fully in the moment and conscious of the "why" of what we do. Otherwise we are left with the empty shell of knowing only the outward form. He continued with an acknowledgement that it is a very real danger for those who are born into it and raised in it. Good religious education becomes critical. That's why I wrote, Laurie, that I'm not surprised, though I'm saddened, when I hear of yet another "cradle Catholic" who can recite Mass responsorials backward in their sleep, but don't connect with it on a spiritual level. However, Rabbi Steinberg went on to write that we don't get rid of the liturgy, we educate the worshiper that this is about interacting with God and signifies a personal commitment to Him. Amen, Rabbi!
In Him,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Phoebe
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posted
Dear 2tim and LaurieFL,
Other matters necessitate that I keep this short for now, but I wanted to acknowledge both of your postings.
2tim, "The Two Babylonias" sounds interesting and of course - I wouldn't aks you to pray for the Holy Spirit's help if I wasn't willing to do the same.
LaurieFl, of course I'll pray for your husband. I'll share something with both 2tim and you concerning something a, now departed, Jewish rabbi had to say about those born into faiths with liturgical worship. Anyway, I'm not surprised when I hear of a "cradle Catholic" who knows less than nothing about the faith, and what the Church "really" teaches. I would recommend the same titles to you, Laurie, as to 2tim.
Blessings in Christ to both of you and yours,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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LaurieFL
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posted
God Bless you two for attempting to resolve your differences and learning about one another. I wanted to remind you both to check your local libraries for some of the titles you have listed. Sometimes, if they don't stock it currently, they can get it on loan from another library. This includes books and DVD's and VHS tapes usually.
Once I get settled down into my new location, I may join you both in your studies. My husband was raised Catholic, and I believe he is lost. I want to learn more about the doctrine he was raised with, so maybe I can use some of it to witness to him, as I believe from some of the things he says that he is a bit confused about actual Catholic doctrine regarding salvation. Please pray for us in this matter!
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Niedziejkore
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posted
quote:
I would tell them the same thing I told my wife when she began doing some of her work in another country (Canada) - get a visa.
haha, yeah... because they're just handing out visas at the border, right?
quote:
Do you know what many of them do after they've made some money? They send it home - to the Dominican Republic for instance - where the exchange rate is very good. The money they make is removed from our economy.
*WARNING* *SARCASM* *WARNING* *SARCASM* *WARNING* *SARCASM*
Yeah, that's terrible. I'M terrible. Because I send money to people in third world countries too. I give money to starving families in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East thus removing precious capital from our American economy because, after all, WE Americans need the money more than Somolians.
*END SARCASM*
Haven't you ever heard of helping your brother out? Besides, I don't like the way you assume every immigrant does this. They have to buy food and pay rent while they're here... anything they send over could only be excess money they don't need... but try finding an illegal immigrant that has excess money.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Phoebe
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posted
Dear 2tim,
Olivia is a lovely name.
Then we have an agreement. Yes, this is exciting because it is real, honest fellowship. Per your request, here again are the titles:
"The Bible Made Me Do It: The Conversion Story" by Tim Staples. (video)
"Dinner With Alex Jones" by Alex Jones. (video)
"Crossing the Tiber: Evangelical Christians Discover the Historical Church" by Stephen K. Ray (book)
Sorry that the first two are unavailable in book form. It's sad but true that more people will look at and listen to electronic media than pick up a book. But, on the upside you do have the experience of immediacy in the watching and listening.
They are all available online at www.saintjoe.com.
I read Antonia Frasier's "Mary, Queen of Scots" in high school (on my own). For oldies, Will and Ariel Durant's work is classic. As is "Jews, God, and History" by Max Diamont. Told from a Jewish perspective and invaluable for understanding Jewish history and culture from the source. Within the last year or so a video collection on the art of the Vatican was put together; done by either PBS or the Discovey Channel, I don't remember which. Unfortunately, it was outrageously expensive. I wish that would come out in book form. I'm currently reading "Founding Brothers". I also write.
In Christ,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Phoebe
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posted
Dear Tim,
First, congratulations on the blessing you've been given in your new daughter. That is wonderful. Second, I don't doubt you read, my point is what you read...
I completely understand about discretionary funds and I am in the same boat. However, I will accept your proposal with the these conditions:
1. Prior to viewing the first title, which is available in both VHS and DVD format, that you SINCERELY PRAY for the Holy Spirit to set aside all preconceived ideas and fears that might be in error concerning what you are about to watch. Ask for the Spirit of God to inform you, not the other way around. That can be a difficult thing to do because of our humanity. We have a habit of allowing discomfort and other considerations to become an over-riding factor. However, we have nothing to fear because He guides ONLY to the TRUTH. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
2. You agree to all three that I have suggested. In fairness, you may conter, title for title. And again, I acknowledge that this will have to be done over a period of time, since it's obvious that neither of us is wealthy.
I should tell you now that it will be at least two weeks before I'm able to purchase whatever title you suggest. And I live in a very small community, which means ordering online and waiting for it to arrive. But I will do so.
I would like to respond here to the posting prior to yours, and my apologies but I didn't take careful note of your user name. My faith comes from the Bible , not college textbooks. The discussion centered around the history of art and knowing the who, how, when, and why of how it came to be. And as I pointed out, if you are interested, some public libraries have copies of them. There is one just out specifically on the artwork contained in Vatican City. My point was that you cannot be certain you know what you are looking at unless you have gone to an authoritative source concerning it.
Now back to you, Tim. If you agree to this, the first title of my choosing is by another Tim, Tim Staples. The title is "The Bible Made Me Do It: The Conversion". You can order it online at www.saintjoe.com.
Finally, Linda, this is for you - what about it? Your continued silence in the face of my challenge speaks volumes ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
In Christ,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
One thing is for sure...If anyone is getting their viewpoints from college history textbooks you can pretty much guarantee that it won't be supportive of Chrisianity...You might see the word in there but it will be biased against Christianity...
There is a major movement to decieve the masses into believing there is no God and it's in the schools of America where the anti God theme is being pushed the hardest it seems...
Posts: 501 | Registered: May 2004
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Gramajo320
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posted
Dear Phoebe,
God bless you for your posting regarding the picture! Please continue posting sharing your knowledge because it is important that you do so!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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Phoebe
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posted
2tim:
Thank you for providing the picture that you take as "proof" of Catholic "paganizm". Unfortunately, the picture has lost significant resolution in posting to a Website. Therefore, I would like to ask that you provide the TITLE of the book from which it came, as well as the publisher. I want to view it for myself in its original publication.
Second, I would like to know what background you have in art history - the study of art through the ages that provides the story of WHO created the art, WHEN it was created, the CONTEXT OF THE CULTURE in which it was created, etc. Have you ever taken such a class or read an art history book on your own (they are available at most public libraries)? It is impossible to ACCURATELY interpret what you are looking at unless YOU KNOW THE STORY BEHIND IT.
Third, Vatican City, a separate city-state, abounds with artwork. Are you aware that from the very beginning of Christian history, artwork served the purpose of telling stories and affirming spiritual truths to believers and the non-believing world alike? That statues served the same purpose in their day that photographs of loved ones "asleep in the Lord" do in our own? They were a way of looking at the PERSON and drawing INSPIRATION of how the living should lead their lives, and especially so in an age when MOST PEOPLE COULD READ VERY LITTLE, IF AT ALL.
You will find statues depicting our Lord, Christ Jesus, of all Twelve Apostles, Mary, Christian martyrs, as well as Moses, David, and Abraham. There are also representations of the Heavenly Host we call "angels", those created by God to serve Him.
But I can tell you one thing, representations of Mary from the earliest time depicted her in the garb of her own time, including A VEIL of some kind covering her hair. Your so-called "proof", I believe, is NOT of Mary.
Finally, I want to comment on the tendency that both Linda "Helpforhomeschoolers" and you have of hiding behind the excuse of "not wanting to provoke a controversy" every time your slanderous, uninformed "statements of fact" are challenged. You provoke controversy and then try to hide behind a false piety.
Right here, right now, I PUBLICALLY CHALLENGE BOTH OF YOU to read or view:
"The Bible Made Me Do It", by Tim Staples
"Dinner With Alex Jones", by Alex Jones
"Crossing the Tiber: Evangelical Protestants Discover the Historical Church" by Steven K. Ray
The first two are available through www.saintjoe.com and the third can be ordered through Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble.
They came from the same background as you, but they were REALLY willing to be lead by the Holy Spirit and then told their stories of what the Holy Spirit had to say to them.
Come back to this board and repeat the things both of you have written about Catholic Christians after doing so. There is nothing to fear when you have placed yourself in Christ's safekeeping.
If you refuse this challenge, then you will be PROVING that you are NOT open to the Holy Spirit and PREFER to help Satan along in his work of PERPETUATING DIVISIONS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST WITH YOUR UNINFORMED SLANDER.
In short, I am saying to you what St. Paul publically said to his critics - PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
In Christ,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gramajo320
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posted
2Tim,
She is so obviously holding Jesus. You should take a better look at this picture.
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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Gramajo320
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posted
Dear Favorminded,
God bless you for your posting in this thread also! Please continue your postings! I will pray for those who do not know anything about the Catholic Church that they will do researching before they try to speak of things of which they so obviously know nothing about!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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Gramajo320
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posted
Dear Phoebe,
God bless you for each of your postings and the sharing of your knowledge which hopefully will open the eyes of some who do not have any knowledge whatsoever of the Catholic Church. They need to research before they try to be so all knowing when in reality they know nothing except what they've heard.
Please continue to post!
In Christ's love,
Gramajo320
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Phoebe
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posted
I would like to add a postscript to my earlier message. For those of you who are sincere in your profession that you are open to the Holy Spirit, I recommend first one of titles I mentioned earlier, "The Bible Made Me Do It: The Conversion" by Tim Staples. He once thought as Linda and Tim do, comes from the same kind of background, and speaks a vocabulary you will understand. As to how Catholics worship and pray, you will find a good representation at www.wordamongus.org (the Word being Jesus, of course).
In Christ,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Niedziejkore
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posted
I don't believe that because something is written in law, that it is right and should be obeyed.
If it were up to me, and it's not, I would make it a lot easier for people in other parts of the world to come here with their families. Right now, it's incredibly hard for immigrants to come over here. If you look at their coming over here as criminal, so be it. I look at it in another way: these people want to come here to escape their opressive governments or the rampant poverty in their countries.
What would you do if you lived in let's say, mexico? Your family is poor, working at american sweat shops... barely living. You hear to the north there is a country where people get paid a minimum of 5 or 6 american dollars per hour. What do you do? Where can you find hope?
You think these people are criminals? Criminals don't risk life and limb to come to a country where they know they're either going to be deported soon or make minimum wage the rest of their life working at walmart or picking fruit.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Phoebe
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Member # 3937
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posted
2tim:
First, YOU raised the issue when you wrote "no pope", so I pointed out that Catholics were the last group with whom the Founding Brothers were concerned.
The two groups "who fled England's persecution" were the Puritans (they wished to "purify" the Church of Englands) and the Separatists (the group responsible for driving out Baptist Roger Williams and for hanging a pregnant woman). They were in open warfare with England's Church, not the Catholic Church. And YES, you do hold them up as good Christians, by presenting them as YOUR PROOF of this country's "Christian heritage".
Who did what to whom in Europe's religious wars? Well, let's see: England (Protestant) vs. Spain (Catholic); England vs. France (Catholc); Spain vs. Holland (both Catholic and Protestant), states of northern Germany (Lutheran) vs. Bavaria (Catholic), Germany (Lutherans) vs. Holland (Calvinists), and England vs. England (Anglican vs. Calvinist vs. Baptist vs. Presbyterian, etc, etc.).
As educated men born to the aristocracy, the Founding Brothers saw ALL of the above as to why politics and religion are a bad mix for good governance.
Now as to your latter statements - exactly what so-called "source" are you quoting? Have YOU ever been to St. Peter's Square? Have YOU witnessed these things first-hand? Be careful of false testimony, Jesus IS watching.
Miguel, I would like to address your comment about the saints. You are aware of the statement in both the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds tha we affirm our belief in "the communion of saints". From the time of the Apostles, this was held to mean that those who have gone on before us can pray for us when asked. The statues served the same purpose that photographs do today - to remind us of a living person, nothing more. That it degenerated into idol worship among SOME people was the result of poor religious education.
Finally, for any of you who care to discern for yourselves the lack of truth in 2tim's and helpforhomeschoolers' allegations, I challenge you to read at least one of the following.
"Catholic and Christian" by Richard Rohr
"No Price Too High" and "Dinner With Alex Jones" by Alex Jones
"The Bible Made Me Do It: The Conversion" by Tim Staples
"Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" by Tim Curry
"Surprised By the Truth" by Patrick Madrid.
The Bible readings and prayer meditations free-of-charge online every day at www.wordamongus.org.
They are all readily available trhough Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com. I am NOT trying to "make" any of you Catholic, but I AM trying to do my part in helping "our separated brethren" see that much of what they belive about us is false and hog slop - pure and simple.
I fail to understand why you refuse to read it for yourselves. Are you afraid? Haven't any of you read the Scripture references I gave Linda and Tim - and which they so obviously don't want to read,even at the peril of their own souls? Satan doesn't cast out Satan and NO ONE gives glory to the Lord Jesus and confesses Him as the Christ, except by the Holy Spirit? Is it really more important to cling to insupportable and erroneous lies than to band together in Christ to do HIS work? I fail to understand such spiritual pride and rebellion.
In Christ,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Niedziejkore
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posted
quote:
Provided that you have a valid visa to be in this Country, I do not agree that they are infringements upon your freedom (unless you believe that we ought to afford everyone the freedom we have as citizens...) - nor do I agree (barring the return of our Lord of course) that the security they afford is "temporary" as you indicated. Can you speak to this?
First, I think immigrants should be given the same freedoms we, as citizens have. There are corporations who knowingly hire illegal immigrants (WALMART). I think once these businesses choose to hire illegal immigrants, those hired should become legal immigrants just because they are here and are contributing to our society... illegal immigrants have a better work ethic than a lot of our citizens. After all, it was immigrants who built this country. Who are we to say that only white europeans should be able to come here without being asked to show a visa or green card.
It's temporary because if you think these provisions are going to stop any big terrorist attack, it probably won't. Remember Tim McVeigh? He was a terrorist and he was also a CITIZEN. Second, do you really think our gov't agancies can keep track of every illegal immigrant in the states? This doesn't only affect immigrants. Did you read section 802? Did you realize sections are in clear violation of the 4th and 6th amendments?
What about the secret searches? Searching your home without you knowing it? And all because you might have attended an anti-war, anti-bush, anti-wto protest and borrowed the wrong books from your library or make a suspicious comment to a co-worker who might feel like she should inform the feds. (1984 anyone?)
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
Yes you are correct in that they are not been properly taught, but if the church have allowed this saint to be around it does not help. For it gives the sense by nature to man that they really can protect you or deliver you from your problems!
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Phoebe
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posted
Dear Miguel,
I'm glad you brought up the examples you did, because those are the practices that Protestant Christians see and say, "Aha! NOT Christian!" and they would be right. What they - and unfortunately many people who are BORN into the Catholic Church - don't understand is those practices you named are NOT a part of Catholic teaching. They are superstitious practices that began a long time ago by people who were not well-educated in their Christian faith and they are carried on today by those who are poorly-educated in the Christian faith. Both the laity and the leadership realize that much needs to be done in the area of teaching adult Catholics, especially those born into Church, what is authentic teaching and what are cultural practices. For too long they took it for granted that everyone was paying attention in the afternoon religion classes. But we all know religious education isn't just for kids and it doesn't stop after you are grown. The example you gave is one of cultural, superstitious practice. Educate the Catholic Christian in what the Church REALLY teaches, and those things disappear.
In Christ,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Niedziejkore
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2tim: the liberties i refer to are as follows:
Section 216
The government is now allowed to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge has NO CHOICE but to okay any warrant law enforcement certifies as surveillance "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. Also, The government can now serve a single wiretap on ANY person or entity nationwide, even if that person or entity is NOT named in the order. The government need not make ANY showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to any criminal investigation. This means ANYONE might have their phone tapped. This also means that the government now can spy on the internet habits of ANY American, even when not suspected of ANY crime. The government is also NOT obliged to report back to the court, OR inform YOU, at all.
Section 218
The government to now permitted to carry out secret searches and covert wiretaps without showing probable cause. They must merely 'certify' (NOT prove) that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This evades Americans' protection under the 4th Amendment.
Section 213
The government can now enter and search your home, without ever
informing you. This search happens whether or no you are home. In some cases you could have your home searched and be none the wiser. This also revokes freedoms granted all citizens by the 4th Amendment.
Section 802
This section CREATES a crime labeled "domestic terrorism." This criminalizes acts which "appear to be intended" to "influence the policy of the government by intimidation or coercion" or to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population." This covers everyone who gave relief money to the Northern Alliance, as well as to the protesters at the WTO.
Section 412
This section permits the government to arrest and detain immigrants INDEFINITELY for nothing more than a visa violation. This violates the 6th Amendment.
Section 210, 211
First it allows ISPs to voluntarily hand over all "non-content" information to law enforcement with no need for any court order or subpoena. sec. 212. Second, it expands the records that the government may seek with a simple subpoena (NO court review required) to include records of session times and durations, temporarily assigned network I.P. addresses; and means and source of payments, INCLUDING credit card or bank account numbers. .
Section 503
This provision adds collection of DNA for terrorists, but then inexplicably also adds collection for the broad, non-terrorist category of "any crime of violence."
Section 215
Last but not least, public libraries now have to hand over information about their patrons' reading habits, and once again, with you none the wiser.
If you want to double check on these claims, feel free to double check them here.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Miguel
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Our founding fathers for this Nation where sinful men as you and me but God in His Sovereignty have place them to do His will not ours.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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PS
Only God and God alone knows who is save and who is not, God came to save that wich was lost and weak and could not come to Christ. We just like to carry a title I am Christian, Catholic ex... But we all have the same nature, sinful, selfish,prideful, dead in our own traspases in our wicked heart..
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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This not to bring a match or hard words to anyone, but family in which I can speak of have show me many things in the Catholics religion. Let me start with some of the saint that where in my house next to the different kinds of candles for each one, Our Lady of Montserrat, rosaries for prayer, virgin mary, st joseph for miracles, Our Lady of Candlemas, st. anthony and archangel st. raphael healing humankind, the earth, and many others.
Incense was also a big part of this temple made for this saint at home.
Not all have these practices but the majority does.
Those saints for those people are their hopes! Not knowing that they are just images of stone.
Christ One of the three aspects of Olodumare(God)
Virgin of Mercy Father of the orisha, guardian of tradition; gives peace and tranquility
Barbara God of thunder, lighting, and fire; the wrath of Olodumare; rules passions
Virgin of la Candelaria Guardian of the cemetery, justice, and hurricanes; Concerned with death and the business world
Virgin of Caridad Del cobre Patroness of love, money, and yellow metals; rules sex and marriage
Virgin of Regla Mother of the saints/orishas, goddess of the sea and mother of the world; rules maternity
Holy Child of Atoche Messenger for all the orisha, keeper of doors and crossroad; rules communication, chance, and hazard
Lazaurus Patron of the sick, father of the world because of his power over illness
Peter God of iron, warfare, and sacrifice; rules Employment
Cosma and Damian Twin deities; bring good fortune and protection against sorcery
Francis of Assisi Owner of Ifa divination, guardian of the Knowledge of past and future
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Phoebe
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Thank you for the GENUINElY CHRISTIAN support, Favor Minded. It's truly appreciated. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
I just want to add an additional comment to you, Linda, a.k.a. "Helpforhomeschoolers". For someone who alleges to believe the words of Christ Himself, you persist in coming within a nanometer of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit with your FALSE assertions regarding Catholic Christians and the Catholic Church. I gave you the Gospel references to read: Matthew 12:22 - 32; Mark 3:20 - 30; and Luke 11:14 -23. Are your pride and uninformed bigotry really stronger than your fear of God that you REFUSE to take Christ Jesus at HIS word??? Apparently your lack of knowledge concerning ACTUAL Christian history is matched only by your pride - a pride that may cost you more in eternity than you've bargained for in this life.
In Christ,
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Favor Minded
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Catholicism of today is one of the most stereotyped.
Many "Christians" believe they know something about it, but in reality they know almost nothing of it.
They "have heard" or they "Know One" so it makes them an expert.
I have found this repeatedly -
What I think is funny is to discuss with a would be "I know about Catholics" and the first thing they say is "They Pray to Mary" which is entirley false, but it demonstrates the ignorance that abounds in our "Christian" society today.
You tell 'em Pheobe!!
AMEN!!
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Phoebe
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Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I clicked into this discussion because it looked interesting. I am appalled by what I have read, particularly by you, Helpforhomeschoolers and you, 2tim.
First, 2tim, as a collection of British colonies, this country's predominant church was the CHURCH OF ENGLAND, NOT the Catholic Church. Second, the original colonists of New England were themselves religious bigots. They HANGED a PREGNANT Quaker woman for daring to cross "their" territory on her way to the Quaker colony of Pennsylvania. They drove out Roger Williams, a Baptist, who was then granted permission by the British crown to found the colony of Rhode Island. You may also recall the indiscriminate executions of men and women accused of "witchcraft" and "consorting with Satan". THEY are the ones the Founding Fathers had in mind when deciding that separation of church and state was a necessity for good governance. The "Founding Brothers" were determined to keep the new country out of the hands of ANYONE who would use ANY set of religious beliefs as a political tool. They ALSO had in mind the of 200 years of religious warfare in Europe, in which BOTH Protestants and Catholics were guilty of atrocities. The LAST group they were worried about was Catholics, who constituted only the small colony of Maryland. Please read a few good history books.
Second, Helpforhomeschoolers, you persist in using a term that Catholic Christians find offensive and is a term straight from the 200-years war to which I just referred. We are CATHOLICS AND WE ARE CHRISTIANS. PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO REFER TO US AS 'THE ROMAN CHURCH'! The REAL Romans were PAGANS! Have you ever ONCE did as I suggested and looked at a Website concerning the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement? Have you ever ONCE looked at a book written by a Catholic Christian? Your endless efforts of linking my faith community to Satan and/or to Islam are offensive AND tiresome. Whatever is in your heart, it IS reflected when you so casually cast out your bigoted, ignorant and uninformed words. Perhaps if you spent more time DOING the work of Christ INSTEAD OF LOOKING AT WHOM TO CAST ASPERSIONS you might experience REAL spiritual growth. I AM your sister in Christ, but I WON'T BACK DOWN ON THIS.
Phoebe
Posts: 41 | From: Northern California | Registered: Oct 2004
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Niedziejkore
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here's an intesting quote that I can relate to what is going on now with the patriot act:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Niedziejkore
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yes, but the belief at the time by our revolutionary government was that we are a nation of christians, but not a christian nation... i don't see where any of these quotes shows otherwise.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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Niedziejkore
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then why does the great seal of the united states, publicly revealed in 1782 say novus ordo seclorum? for those who don't know latin, it means, "New Secular Order"
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I cannot tell you that I have studied this thoroughly. I would be interested to see the other scriptures from Jeramiah etc where you see she does not line up with Babylon.
The woman who is a great city sits on a beast with 7 heads and the heads are 7 mountains... but I see this speaks to Rome..but I see it as in the revived Roman Empire.. the empire I believe will eventually have its seat in Babylon Iraq. I believe that this will happen as the EU seeks to find deplomacy or harmony with the middle east and also the false Christianity of the Roman Church with Islam.
I believe that what will have to come tobe is a revival of the Roman empire because the Roman Empire of Daniel's statue did not really end, but became the uncleaving legs and feet of clay and Iron (ironically clay represents man, as in we are the potters clay-I think this is prophetic of the Roman Church's involvement in the picture and Iron Military might, or perhaps terrorist might - the might of Islam- These two entities must join, but will never cleave) When the statue of daniel is finally toppled by Christ it will be all four world ruling powers and opressors of Israel come down simulataneously, as one empire has been absorbed by the next from head to foot. And so this day the legs and feet of clay and Iron still exist. Rome still lives today and we are seeing it in the EU, but eventually it will have to include the middle east and what was once the medo-persian empire.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
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I guess I tend to rule out the literal Babylon,Iraq as Mystery Babylon, because it doesn't and has not fit the descriptions in Revelation and other places such as Jerimiah in the Bible descriptions of the latter days Babylon.
She sits on many waters and has many tongues and peoples.
America: our national motto: Out of many, One.
She's a false unity of peoples of the earth, that tries to mimic the true Unity of the Church in Christ.
What role the Catholic Church plays, may be similar to the roles all other denominations play including protestant churches. There will be members of Christ's true Bride within all these manmade organizations.
Thanks though for opening my eyes to a falsehood that most of us were taught as school kids. Revolution may have been noble to the colonists, and may have been necessary. The colonists certainly felt very oppressed by England. Unfortunately for me, that when I go back and read about how upset they got about some trivial things like the Stamp Act, and Tea, and such, and taxation without representation, I can imagine that Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and others would have led us against Uncle Sam in another revolution if they saw all the taxes we pay now, and all the invasion of privacy we tolerate now.
It's a funny thing. Yet while they may have not been true believers of Christ, they did pledge to fight for the right of all people to worship freely as they saw right for themselves. Now we have people so obsessed about any expression of religion in public, that we will lose our ability to be ourselves, if we can't express those things we truly believe in without fear of being sanctioned by an employer, or health care provider, or even government officials. I don't feel that's freedom, if one can't express their beliefs and ideas.
The 1st Amendment is being stuffed down the toilet, by all politicians and many people.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I used the word apostacy with reservation when I posted it, but I lacked a better more accurate word to speak to what I think. I used to believe that the Roman Church was apostate in that they who were once faithful are no longer following sound doctrine, and I as I say this I fear beginning again the great protestant/Catholic debates that have raged here and brought much strife and I so do not want to begin this again. But I want to explain my personal belief for your understnding of where I come from and not for purpose of engaging with any in debating the issue of Catholicism. Having said that... I used to believe that the Roman Church, which I see as beginning with Constantine, was apostate. Today after much study, I no longer believe that, but believe that the Roman Church has never been Christian, as I would define Christian, but is pagan in it's babylonian roots.
As to America... I see that America is today very much a type of Babylon. But do I believe America is the Great ***** ...the Mystery Babylon of Revelation? No, I do not. Nor do I believe that Jerusalem is as some here assert. ( ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) BA, if you are reading.)
I believe that the Great ***** - the Mystery Babylon of Revelation is a City as the Bible says. I believe that she may be the Vatican City, but I tend to think she is the City Babylon, Iraq and that ancient city that has opposed God from the onset. I believe that the beast that she rides upon is a world system in that it like the beasts of Daniel rule the world and opress Israel. I believe this will be a political/religious/economic system. I believe that it will be a sort of revival of empirical Rome. I believe that the religious arm if you will, will come out of the Roman Church and Mary Queen of Heaven will be the source of unity that will form beween Islam and Catholicism. I believe that the polictical/economic side is not here yet, but has its makings in the EU and the UN. I believe that America as we know it will cease to exisit, perhaps because we will cease to be a friend of Israel. I believe that the antichrist that will come to the head of this system will be a Jew of the line of David that will be believed to be the Messiah by many. I believe that the false prophet will likely be a Pope.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
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After reading these posts about Amercia's founder's and their beliefs, I now know why there is such confusion at least for myself.
Helpforhomeschoolers post addresses quite well, the misconceptions about our heritage.
The post about the Masons and the historical fact that George Washington was a Mason is also very telling.
I just have a question for Linda. I can see now why I think that America is the Babylon described for destruction in Revelation and Linda your post makes references to the Apostasy of the Holy Roman Empire and how if America tries to become a Christian Nation that would be similar to what occurred in Rome.
Do you think America is Babylon? Isn't our country a false system?
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Endoxos
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About the Order of the Eastern Star and Masonry in general...
"The true name for Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry. For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will." (Morals and Dogma p. 102 http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/MoralsandDogma.html )
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"To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees – The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine.
If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay (The God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy, and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him ?
Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also God. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two Gods : darkness being necessary to light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive.
In analogical and universal dynamics one can only lean on that which will resist. Thus the universe is balanced by two forces which maintain its equilibrium : the force of attraction and that of repulsion. These two forces exist in physics, philosophy and religion. And the scientific reality of the divine dualism is demonstrated by the phenomena of polarity and by the universal law of sympathies and antipathies. That is why the intelligent disciples of Zoroaster, as well as after them, the Gnostics, the Manicheans and the Templars have admitted, as the only logical metaphysical conception, the system of the two divine principles fighting eternally, and one cannot believe the one inferior in power to the other.
Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophic religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil."
(La Femme et l' Enfant dans la Franc-Maconnerie Universelle page 588 http://www.trosch.org/for/pike-albert.html )
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http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/29/2913.html
"Venus remains invisible for 14 days, to reappear as the Morning star, Phosphoros, Lucifer, the Bringer of Light, the Eastern star..."
"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!" (Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 321 http://www.cuttingedge.org/free11.html)
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"The Gnostics held that it [universal agent] composed the igneous [pertaining to fire] body of the Holy Spirit, and it was adored in the secret rites of the Sabbat or the Temple under the hieroglyphic figure of Baphomet or the hermaphroditic goat of Mendes ." (Pike, op. cit., p. 734, teaching of the 28th Degree; same site as above)
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http://www.cuttingedge.org/E_Star_Lg_Seattle.gif the five pointed inverted star, which among occultists, means "elements are superior to man", with "FATAL" written around the center. Not exactly the ideal lettering for an acronym.
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My signature is apisdn umop.
Posts: 362 | From: HELP! I'm stuck in a DOS window! | Registered: Mar 2004
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SciptureAndPrayers
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H4HS,
Excellent post! Also, excellent research!
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
You know, I would challenge you to read some of the actual papers and letters of some of these men...Jefferson, Madison, etc...
I do not deny that they believed in a creator God, but I am sorry they were not Christians by what most of us would consider Christian today.
Many of them Jefferson particularly denied the diety of Christ. Anyone can say, I am a Christian, but you might want to know their definition of being a Christian.
In reading much of their papers for my self I have learned a few things...
1. Many were so burned by the tyranny of the Church of England, that they had almost a sense of contempt for the clergy.
2. Many of them denied the diety of Christ.
3. They were for the most part all staunchly opposed to the government dictating relgion to them. I think we have to realize that they were not dealing with Hinduism and Islam and Budhists etc... they were dealing with Methodidsts, Presbytarians, Baptists, Quakers, etc...
THis is James Madison for example: I ask you to read it carefully.
To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia
Memorial and Remonstrance
We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,
1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate.
This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator.
It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign.
We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.
2. Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents.
The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to defend the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves.
3. Because it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it.
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
4. Because the Bill violates the equality which ought to be the basis of every law, and which is more indispensable, in proportion as the validity or expediency of any law is more liable to be impeached. If "all men are by nature equally free and independent," all men are to be considered as entering into Society on equal conditions; as relinquishing no more, and therefore retaining no less, one than another, of their natural rights.
Above all are they to be considered as retaining an "equal title to the free exercise of Religion according to the dictates of Conscience." Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us.
If this freedom be abused, it is an offence against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered. As the Bill violates equality by subjecting some to peculiar burdens, so it violates the same principle, by granting to others peculiar exemptions. Are the quakers and Menonists the only sects who think a compulsive support of their Religions unnecessary and unwarrantable? can their piety alone be entrusted with the care of public worship? Ought their Religions to be endowed above all others with extraordinary privileges by which proselytes may be enticed from all others?
We think too favorably of the justice and good sense of these denominations to believe that they either covet pre-eminences over their fellow citizens or that they will be seduced by them from the common opposition to the measure.
5. Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation.
6. Because the establishment proposed by the Bill is not requisite for the support of the Christian Religion. To say that it is, is a contradiction to the Christian Religion itself, for every page of it disavows a dependence on the powers of this world: it is a contradiction to fact; for it is known that this Religion both existed and flourished, not only without the support of human laws , but in spite of every opposition from them, and not only during the period of miraculous aid, but long after it had been left to its own evidence and the ordinary care of Providence.
Nay, it is a contradiction in terms; for a Religion not invented by human policy, must have pre-existed and been supported, before it was established by human policy. It is moreover to weaken in those who profess this Religion a pious confidence in its innate excellence and the patronage of its Author; and to foster in those who still reject it, a suspicion that its friends are too conscious of its fallacies to trust it to its own merits.
7. Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation.
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest luster; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy.
Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?
8. Because the establishment in question is not necessary for the support of Civil Government. If it be urged as necessary for the support of Civil Government only as it is a means of supporting Religion, and it be not necessary for the latter purpose, it cannot be necessary for the former. If Religion be not within the cognizance of Civil Government how can its legal establishment be necessary to Civil Government? What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society?
In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries.
A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not. Such a Government will be best supported by protecting every Citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another.
9. Because the proposed establishment is a departure from the generous policy, which, offering an Asylum to the persecuted and oppressed of every Nation and Religion, promised a luster to our country, and an accession to the number of its citizens. What a melancholy mark is the Bill of sudden degeneracy? Instead of holding forth an Asylum to the persecuted, it is itself a signal of persecution.
It degrades from the equal rank of Citizens all those who see opinions in Religion do not bend to those of the Legislative authority. Distant as it may be in its present form from the Inquisition, it differs from it only in degree. The one is the first step, the other the last in the career of intolerance. The magnanimous sufferer under this cruel scourge in foreign Regions, must view the Bill as a Beacon on our Coast, warning him to seek some other haven, where liberty and philanthrophy in their due extent, may offer a more certain repose from his Troubles.
10. Because it will have a like tendency to banish our Citizens. The allurements presented by other situations are every day thinning their number. To superadd a fresh motive to emigration by revoking the liberty which they now enjoy, would be the same species of folly which has dishonored and depopulated flourishing kingdoms.
11. Because it will destroy that moderation and harmony which the forbearance of our laws to intermeddle with Religion has produced among its several sects. Torrents of blood have been split in the old world, by vain attempts of the secular arm, to extinguish Religious disscord, by proscribing all difference in Religious opinion. Time has at length revealed the true remedy. Every relaxation of narrow and rigorous policy, wherever it has been tried, has been found to assuage the disease.
The American Theater has exhibited proofs that equal and complete liberty, if it does not wholly eradicate it, sufficiently destroys its malignant influence on the health and prosperity of the State. If with the salutary effects of this system under our own eyes, we begin to contract the bounds of Religious freedom, we know no name that will too severely reproach our folly. At least let warning be taken at the first fruits of the threatened innovation.
The very appearance of the Bill has transformed "that Christian forbearance, love and charity," which of late mutually prevailed, into animosities and jealousies, which may not soon be appeased. What mischiefs may not be dreaded, should this enemy to the public quiet be armed with the force of a law?
12. Because the policy of the Bill is adverse to the diffusion of the light of Christianity. The first wish of those who enjoy this precious gift ought to be that it may be imparted to the whole race of mankind. Compare the number of those who have as yet received it with the number still remaining under the dominion of false Religions; and how small is the former! Does the policy of the Bill tend to lessen the disproportion?
No; it at once discourages those who are strangers to the light of revelation from coming into the Region of it; and countenances by example the nations who continue in darkness, in shutting out those who might convey it to them. Instead of Leveling as far as possible, every obstacle to the victorious progress of Truth, the Bill with an ignoble and unchristian timidity would circumscribe it with a wall of defense against the encroachments of error.
13. Because attempts to enforce by legal sanctions, acts obnoxious to go great a proportion of Citizens, tend to enervate the laws in general, and to slacken the bands of Society. If it be difficult to execute any law which is not generally deemed necessary or salutary, what must be the case, where it is deemed invalid and dangerous? And what may be the effect of so striking an example of impotency in the Government, on its general authority?
14. Because a measure of such singular magnitude and delicacy ought not to be imposed, without the clearest evidence that it is called for by a majority of citizens, and no satisfactory method is yet proposed by which the voice of the majority in this case may be determined, or its influence secured.
The people of the respective counties are indeed requested to signify their opinion respecting the adoption of the Bill to the next Session of Assembly." But the representatives or of the Counties will be that of the people. Our hope is that neither of the former will, after due consideration, espouse the dangerous principle of the Bill. Should the event disappoint us, it will still leave us in full confidence, that a fair appeal to the latter will reverse the sentence against our liberties.
15. Because finally, "the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his Religion according to the dictates of conscience" is held by the same tenure with all our other rights.
If we recur to its origin, it is equally the gift of nature; if we weigh its importance, it cannot be less dear to us; if we consult the "Declaration of those rights which pertain to the good people of Virginia, as the basis and foundation of Government," it is enumerated with equal solemnity, or rather studied emphasis.
Either then, we must say, that the Will of the Legislature is the only measure of their authority; and that in the plenitude of this authority, they may sweep away all our fundamental rights; or, that they are bound to leave this particular right untouched and sacred:
Either we must say, that they may control the freedom of the press, may abolish the Trial by Jury, may swallow up the Executive and Judiciary Powers of the State; nay that they may despoil us of our very right of suffrage, and erect themselves into an independent and hereditary Assembly or, we must say, that they have no authority to enact into the law the Bill under consideration.
Conclusion:
We the Subscribers say, that the General Assembly of this Commonwealth have no such authority: And that no effort may be omitted on our part against so dangerous an usurpation, we oppose to it, this remonstrance; earnestly praying, as we are in duty bound, that the Supreme Lawgiver of the Universe, by illuminating those to whom it is addressed, may on the one hand, turn their Councils from every act which would affront his holy prerogative, or violate the trust committed to them: and on the other, guide them into every measure which may be worthy of his [blessing, may re]bound to their own praise, and may establish more firmly the liberties, the prosperity and the happiness of the Commonweath.
This is written b y Jefferson and is from the US Library of Congress. I again urge you to read fully and carefully and see if Jefferson fits your definition of Christian....
The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes. Federal Edition. Collected and Edited by Paul Leicester Ford.
[Note 1 This was drawn up for Benjamin Rush, and was sent him with the following letter:
"Washington, Apr 21, 1803.
"Dear Sir,--In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of 1798--99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you, that one day or other, I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry & reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other. At the short intervals since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract my mind from public affairs, the subject has been under my contemplation. But the more I considered it, the more it expanded beyond the measure of either my time or information. In the moment of my late departure from Monticello, I received from Doctr Priestley, his little treatise of Socrates & Jesus compared. This being a section of the general view I had taken of the field it became a subject of reflection while on the road, and unoccupied otherwise. The result was, to arrange in my mind a syllabus, or outline of such an estimate of the comparative merits of Christianity, as I wished to see executed by some one of more leisure and information for the task, than myself. This I now send you, as the only discharge of my promise I can probably ever execute. And in confiding it to you, I know it will not be exposed to the malignant perversions of those who make every word from me a text for new misrepresentations & calumnies. I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public; because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself into that inquisition over the rights of conscience, which the laws have so justly proscribed. It behoves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. It behoves him, too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independent opinion, by answering questions of faith, which the laws have left between God & himself. Accept my affectionate salutations."
To Priestley, Jefferson had already written:
"Washington, Apr 9. 1803.
"Dear Sir,--While on a short visit lately to Monticello, I received from you a copy of your comparative view of Socrates & Jesus, and I avail myself of the first moment of leisure after my return to acknolege the pleasure I had in the perusal of it, and the desire it excited to see you take up the subject on a more extensive scale. In consequence of some conversation with Dr. Rush, in the year 1798--99, I had promised some day to write him a letter giving him my view of the Christian system. I have reflected often on it since, & even sketched the outlines in my own mind. I should first take a general view of the moral doctrines of the most remarkable of the antient philosophers, of whose ethics we have sufficient information to make an estimate, say of Pythagoras, Epicurus, Epictetus, Socrates, Cicero, Seneca, Antoninus. I should do justice to the branches of morality they have treated well; but point out the importance of those in which they are deficient. I should then take a view of the deism and ethics of the Jews, and show in what a degraded state they were, and the necessity they presented of a reformation. I should proceed to a view of the life, character, & doctrines of Jesus, who sensible of incorrectness of their ideas of the Deity, and of morality, endeavored to bring them to the principles of a pure deism, and juster notions of the attributes of God, to reform their moral doctrines to the standard of reason, justice & philanthropy, and to inculcate the belief of a future state, This view would purposely omit the question of his divinity, & even his inspiration. To do him justice, it would be necessary to remark the disadvantages his doctrines have to encounter, not having been committed to writing by himself, but by the most unlettered of men, by memory, long after they had heard them from him; when much was forgotten, much misunderstood,& presented in very paradoxical shapes. Yet such are the fragments remaining as to show a master workman, and that his system of morality was the most benevolent & sublime probably that has been ever taught, and consequently more perfect than those of any of the antient philosophers. His character & doctrines have received still greater injury from those who pretend to be his special disciples, and who have disfigured and sophisticated his actions & precepts, from views of personal interest, so as to induce the unthinking part of mankind to throw off the whole system in disgust, and to pass sentence as an impostor on the most innocent, the most benevolent, the most eloquent and sublime character that ever has been exhibited to man. This is the outline; but I have not the time, & still less the information which the subject needs. It will therefore rest with me in contemplation only. You are the person who of all others would do it best, and most promptly. You have all the materials at hand, and you put together with ease. I wish you could be induced to extend your late work to the whole subject. I have not heard particularly what is the state of your health; but as it has been equal to the journey to Philadelphia, perhaps it might encourage the curiosity you must feel to see for once this place, which nature has formed on a beautiful scale, and circumstances destine for a great one. As yet we are but a cluster of villages; we cannot offer you the learned society of Philadelphia; but you will have that of a few characters whom you esteem, & a bed & hearty welcome with one who will rejoice in every opportunity of testifying to you his high veneration & affectionate attachment."
An undated memorandum in the Jefferson MSS. is evidently the draft of a note with which Jefferson transmitted copies to his friends:
"A promise to a friend some time ago, executed but lately, has placed my religious creed on paper. I am desirous it should be perused by three or four particular friends, with whom tho' I never desired to make a mystery of it, yet no occasion has happened to occur of explaining it to them. It is communicated for their personal satisfaction & to enable them to judge of the truth or falsehood of the libels published on that subject. When read, the return of the paper with this cover is asked."
To Lincoln (April 26, 1803), he wrote:
"Mr. Lincoln is perfectly free to retain the copy of the syllabus & to make any use of it his discretion would approve, confident as Th: J. is that his discretion would not permit him to let it be copied lest it should get into print. In the latter case Th: J. would become the **** of every set of disquisitions which every priest would undertake to write on every tenet it expresses. Their object is not truth, but matter whereon to write against Th: J. and this synopsis would furnish matter for repeating in new forms all the volumes of divinity which are now mouldering on the shelves from which they should never more be taken. Th: J. would thank Mr. L. not to put his name on the paper in filing it away, lest in case of accident to Mr. L. it should get out."]
[April, 1803.]
In a comparative view of the Ethics of the enlightened nations of antiquity, of the Jews and of Jesus, no notice should be taken of the corruptions of reason among the ancients, to wit, the idolatry & superstition of the vulgar, nor of the corruptions of Christianity by the learned among its professors.
Let a just view be taken of the moral principles inculcated by the most esteemed of the sects of ancient philosophy, or of their individuals; particularly Pythagoras, Socrates, Epicurus, Cicero, Epictetus, Seneca, Antoninus.
I. Philosophers. 1. Their precepts related chiefly to ourselves, and the government of those passions which, unrestrained, would disturb our tranquillity of mind.1
[Note 1 To explain, I will exhibit the heads of Seneca's & Cicero's philosophical works, the most extensive of any we have received from the ancients. Of 10. heads in Seneca, 7. relate to ourselves, to wit de ira, consolatio, de tranquilitate, de constantia sapientis, de otio sapientis, de vita, beata, de brevitate vitæ; 2 relate to others, de clementia, de beneficiis; & 1. relates to the government of the world, de providentia. Of 11 tenets of Cicero, 5 respect ourselves, viz. de finibus, Tusculana, academica, paradoxa, de Senectute; 1. de officiis., partly to ourselves, partly to others; 1, de amicitia, relates to others; and 4. are on different subjects, to wit, de natura deorum, de divinatione, de fato, and somnium Scipionis.--T. J.
Jefferson later in life began the preparation of a work which he called The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth ( see Randall, III., 656), but as it was never carried beyond a mere synopsis, it is not included in this collection.] In this branch of philosophy they were really great.2. In developing our duties to others, they were short and defective. They embraced, indeed, the circles of kindred & friends, and inculcated patriotism or the love of our country in the aggregate, as a primary obligation: toward our neighbors & countrymen they taught justice, but scarcely viewed them as within the circle of benevolence. Still less have they inculcated peace, charity & love to our fellow men, or embraced with benevolence the whole family of mankind.
II. Jews. 1. Their system was Deism; that is, the belief of one only God. But their ideas of him & of his attributes were degrading & injurious.2. Their Ethics were not only imperfect, but often irreconcilable with the sound dictates of reason & morality, as they respect intercourse with those around us; & repulsive & anti-social, as respecting other nations. They needed reformation, therefore, in an eminent degree.
III. Jesus. In this state of things among the Jews Jesus appeared. His parentage was obscure; his condition poor; his education null; his natural endowments great; his life correct and innocent: he was meek, benevolent, patient, firm, disinterested, & of the sublimest eloquence.
The disadvantages under which his doctrines appear are remarkable.
1. Like Socrates & Epictetus, he wrote nothing himself.
2. But he had not, like them, a Xenophon or an Arrian to write for him. On the contrary, all the learned of his country, entrenched in its power and riches, were opposed to him, lest his labors should undermine their advantages; and the committing to writing his life & doctrines fell on the most unlettered & ignorant men; who wrote, too, from memory, & not till long after the transactions had passed.
3. According to the ordinary fate of those who attempt to enlighten and reform mankind, he fell an early victim to the jealousy & combination of the altar and the throne, at about 33. years of age, his reason having not yet attained the maximum of its energy, nor the course of his preaching, which was but of 3. years at most, presented occasions for developing a complete system of morals.
4. Hence the doctrines which he really delivered were defective as a whole, and fragments only of what he did deliver have come to us mutilated, misstated, & often unintelligible.
5. They have been still more disfigured by the corruptions of schismatising followers, who have found an interest in sophisticating & perverting the simple doctrines he taught by engrafting on them the mysticisms of a Grecian sophist, frittering them into subtleties, & obscuring them with jargon, until they have caused good men to reject the whole in disgust, & to view Jesus himself as an impostor.
Notwithstanding these disadvantages, a system of morals is presented to us, which, if filled up in the true style and spirit of the rich fragments he left us, would be the most perfect and sublime that has ever been taught by man.
The question of his being a member of the Godhead, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others is foreign to the present view, which is merely an estimate of the intrinsic merit of his doctrines.
1. He corrected the Deism of the Jews, confirming them in their belief of one only God, and giving them juster notions of his attributes and government.
2. His moral doctrines, relating to kindred & friends, were more pure & perfect than those of the most correct of the philosophers, and greatly more so than those of the Jews; and they went far beyond both in inculcating universal philanthropy, not only to kindred and friends, to neighbors and countrymen, but to all mankind, gathering all into one family, under the bonds of love, charity, peace, common wants and common aids. A development of this head will evince the peculiar superiority of the system of Jesus over all others.
3. The precepts of philosophy, & of the Hebrew code, laid hold of actions only. He pushed his scrutinies into the heart of man; erected his tribunal in the region of his thoughts, and purified the waters at the fountain head.
4. He taught, emphatically, the doctrines of a future state, which was either doubted, or disbelieved by the Jews; and wielded it with efficacy, as an important incentive, supplementary to the other motives to moral conduct.
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Hi...me here again. I could post volumes on this topic...but my point is this.
This nation was founded by many men who sought freedom from the relgious oppression of England that was likened to the Opression of Rome during the years following Constantine...I speak of the crusades and the inquisions etc.
Jesus did not come the first time to establish an earthly kingdom. He will be doing that when he comes again.
Do you think it was Christ's way that Christianity become the official religion of the Roman Empire...dictated by an emporer? This in fact became the birth of the greastest apostacy of the modern world...the Roman Church.
Do you really think we should repeat that here in America? Do you really belive our founders intended that? They were escaping that in escaping the Tyrany of the church of England.
Do you who claim that we have a choice of belief in Christ, really believe that a "Christian Nation" can be created by humans exisit without Tyranny and opression of those who will not believe?
I dont think we do Christ any favors or serve Christianity with any credibility when we claim that this ever was a "Christian Nation" Founded by Christian men. This nation was founded by people with a host of ideas about who Christ is and What he preached. The ONE thing they had in Common was not their knowledge of Christ as we who are born again know him, but it was their fear of opression of the government that seeks to govern what man believes.
This nation was birthed out of the American Revolution. The Bible speaks totally against rising up in revolution against one's government and says that ALL governments are established by God for his purpose.
I am not crying the humanistic words "you cant legislate morality" Please know this. What I am crying is the rest of that story... "You cant legislate morality, because a law will not make a bad man good."
We need to be light in the darkness. We need to preach the Gospel of Christ and pray for our ledership whether we like them or agree with them or not. We need to vote because God has ordained that we live in this time and under this government where we can. And when we vote we need to vote morally because we are Christians and we are concerned more by the Moral values of God than even our own pocketbooks or coffers.
But it is not for us to birth a "Christian Nation" WE are to preach the Gospel and tell the world that HE is coming to birth a WORLD in which all will worship the TRUE ONE TRUE GOD.
It seems to me than man really has trouble with that which is HIS to do and that which is ours to do. God himself in the person of Jesus Christ is the ONLY founder of any Kingdom in which man is ever going to live that will be Christian and yet not tranical and oppressive, but peaceful and joyful. That is because the kingdom must first be manifest in the heart of man before it will ever be manifest in the earth. That will be accomplished by the power of HIS spirit and not by constitutions written by men.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Bat Elohim
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FM, I'm not offended, don't worry. I was a member of the girl's group, "Rainbow Girls" and was petitioned to join the women's group, OES. But I didn't. For some reason, it just never felt like the right time, or I had stuff to do so that I was too busy. Then a few years ago, I started researching it and realized that God, Himself, was putting up the road-blocks. I then had the decision to either join and go against what God was showing me and shielding me from, or to walk away and anger my family.
My family got over it. Although they still ask me from time to time why I don't just join so that I can hang out with them and their friends.
I had read most of what you posted before, but I just wondered about the founding fathers because, well... George Washington was a 33rd degree mason and that is the highest level. The level where it is believed that the actual satanic worship and truth about the symbolism is revealed. I know it's the level where the symbolism is reveled, because of the research that I have done.
I have a few rituals at home that I look through from time to time to see if I can pick out actual references to satan or lucerferian worship, but I haven't found any yet.
Anyway, I was just wondering.
I agree that we are almost at the end because we are as bad as Noah's day.
Come quickly Lord Jesus, please!
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Numbers 6:24 May ADONAI bless you and keep you. 25 May ADONAI make his face shine on you and show you his favor. 26 May ADONAI lift up his face toward you and give you peace.
Posts: 704 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Aug 2004
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LaurieFL
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Awesome post, FM. I can't imagine what our forefathers would think of this country toay.
I am moved to tears and fall on my knees in paryer for our nation every time I listen to the Larry Norman song (from over 30 years ago!) "The Great American Novel". The chorus says
"Your money says in God we trust,
but it's against the law to pray in school.
You say we beat the Russians to the moon,
and I say you starved your children to do it"
I become more and more convinced daily that the removal of prayer and Biblical teachings from our schools was the beginning of the end for this nation.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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SciptureAndPrayers
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Here is another point of reference, and only that: it is far from being any kind of final authority.
Meyer, Carl S., The Church: From Pentecost to the Present, Moody Press, Chicago, 1969.
The Rise of Deism
Not atheism but deism was the greatest threat to Trinitarian Christianity in the eighteenth century. The "father of Deism," Edward Herbert or Lord Herbert of Cherbury (d. 1648), expounded five principles in his Concerning Truth: (1) there is a God; (2) God ought to be worshiped; (3) virtue is the chief element in the worship of God; (4) repentance from sin is a duty of man; (5) after this life there is a life of rewards and punishments. p. 238
Deism and Rationalism in North America
... Thomas Pain (d. 1809) attacked Christianity in his The Age of Reason, in which he expounded deism, rejected inspiration and miracles, and denied Christ's vicarious atonement. Benjamin Franklin (d. 1790), diplomat, scientist, author of Poor Richard's Almanack, was a deist in his religious convictions. George Washington (d. 1799), careful in his expressions, spoke of the Supreme eing and the great Architect of the universe rather than the triune God. Thomas Jefferson (d. 1826) and John Adams (d. 1826) were deists. Jeferson's advocacy of religious liberty is one of the great heritages he left his country. Attempts have been made to cast the founding fathers of American independence and liberty into the mold of orthodox Christianity. The facts do not warrant such attempts. American thinkers reflected the movements on the European Continent and in England. Even the American Revolution was not a unique event, for several revolutions were spawned in Europe and the Atlantic basin during the eighteenth century. p. 242.
Independence of the British Colonies in North America
The adoption of the Constitution in 1789 and the election of George Washington as President gave the new republic a working instrument for government and an able executive. The first amendment to this Constitution provided that the Congress should not set up an established church and should not make any laws preventing the free exercise of religion. It was a triumph for the principles of toleration and religious liberty. These tenets had been advocated by the Anabaptists of the sixteenth, the Dissenters and Sectaries of the seventeenth, and the rationalists of the eighteenth centuries. The first amendment did not prevent the individual states from supporting specific churches. Most of them followed the lead of Virginia with its Declaration of Religious Liberty. Disestablishment, however, did not come to New Hampshire until 1817, to Connecticut until 1818 and to Massachusetts until 1833. pp. 248, 249.
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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Favor Minded
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Great reference TexasGrandma!!
The Masons are helping further the AntiChrist position. Interesting to note also how prevalent they are becoming, quickly...
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Favor Minded
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Yes Bat Elohim,
Some of them were - At a time when it was still accepted as being a good thing - Before the truth was learned...
While most sources placed the official birth of Freemasonry at 1717, Masonic references clearly indicated that the organization's history went back much further than this.
Already dominating the political affairs of Europe, the Masonic Order had made significant progress in the United States by the late 1700s.
Some of this country's political founding fathers were Masons. Most of them, like George Washington, were decent men who knew of no higher aims of the Order and who even spoke out against the activities of the Illuminati. However, with the Masonic lodges having gained acceptance in America, the Illuminati finally had in place the network through which it could recruit members and carry on its work. As a result, the first Supreme Council of Scottish Rite Freemasonry was established in Charleston, South Carolina, in 1801.
According to a Masonic publication entitled Facts Of Scottish Rite, "all other regular Supreme Councils throughout the world are descended from it" (Facts of Scottish Rite, p.4). (In 1813, the Northern Supreme Council was established as an extension of the Charleston group. The Northern Jurisdiction today consists of fifteen states and is headquartered in Boston. The Southern Jurisdiction whose headquarters have been relocated from Charleston to Washington, DC, covers the remaining thirty-five states, the District of Columbia, the U.S. territories and possessions. It is today the Mother Supreme Council of the world -- Ibid.). The tremendous potential of the United States somehow had to be harnessed and brought under control if the plan for a New World Order was ever to succeed. Therefore, during the 1800s, as the U.S. emerged as a world power, the Illuminati gradually shifted its attention from Europe to the United States.
Freemasonry experienced tremendous growth during the nineteenth century, particularly during the second half of the century when Freemasonry flourished as never before. This was also a time of rapid growth for Masonically-inspired religious cults. In addition to founding the Theosophical Society, Freemasonry participated in the rise and spread of Christian Science and Unitarianism; and Masons Rutherford and Russell founded the Jehovah's Witnesses. all of these cults have served to subtly direct people away from the truth of Christ. The largest of these religious offshoots, however, would be the Mormon Church, which was founded by Joseph Smith, another high ranking Mason.
Smith was already heavily into the occult prior to becoming a Mason and had published his book of Mormon in 1830, some twelve years before joining the Order. However, on 15 March, 1842, Smith received his first degree in Freemasonry, and he was raised to the Sublime Degree of a Master Mason on the very next day. "Six weeks later, on May 2, 1842, Smith was teaching these Masonic secrets as his own "revelations" to Mormon leaders as the temple Endowment" (Chuck Sackett, What's Going On in There? Thousand Oaks, CA: Sword of the Shepherd Ministries, 1982, p.13. As taken from History of the Church {D.H.C.], Vol. 4, 550, 552). Into the fabric of Freemasonry he wove his own peculiar brand of occultism, claiming it to be "revelation" from on high. Brigham Young, the other significant early Mormon leader, was also a Mason and contributed to the rise of this occult hierarchy (W.J. McCormick, Christ, the Christian, and Freemasonry, Belfast: Great Joy Publications, 1984; p.96).
Several books have been written during the past few years by former Mormons, exposing the connection between Mormonism and Freemasonry, included among these are What's Going On in There? by Chuck Sackett; and The God Makers, by Ed Decker, co-authored with Dave Hunt, a non-Mormon. These books reveal how Mormonism's Masonic heritage is reflected in everything from its symbols to its rituals and secret doctrines.
Mormonism today has over four million members, and is, per capita the wealthiest "church" in the world. "Its influence politically and otherwise is enormous" (Ibid., p.18).
During this same period of time, the Masonic Order was making major inroads in American politics and economics. By the late 1800s, Freemasonry had grown so large that it had become inefficient and difficult to manage. Its many divisions, sects, and rites lacked a sense of unity and direction. Thus, in an effort to centralize the authority of Universal Freemasonry a new ultra-secret governing body was established on 20 September 1870 (Miller, Occult Theocracy, p.207-208). This represented the first major restructuring (or perestroika) of Illuminized Freemasonry. At the center of this creation was Albert Pike, who stated: "The blind Force of the people is a Force that must be economized, and also managed . . . It must be regulated by Intellect (Intellect here is a reference to the Illuminati or the highest adepts of Freemasonry), . . . When all these Forces are combined, and guided by the Intellect, and regulated by the RULE of Right, and Justice... the great revolution prepared for by the ages will begin to march. It is because Force is ill regulated that revolutions prove failures." (Morals and Dogma, p.1-2).
Pike would end up doing more than any other figure of the nineteenth century to prepare the way for this "great" revolution of which he spoke.
Pike was also "a great student of the Cabala and the occult" (Miller, Occult Theocracy, 208). His literary achievements in this area were numerous, including Ariel; The Sephar H. Debarim; Book of the Word; Legenda Magistralia; Ritual of the New and Reformed Palladium (4 grades out of 5), The Ritual of Elect Magus, and The Book of Apadno, which contains the prophecies concerning the reign of the anti-Christ from the Satanic point of view" (Ibid., p.220). Some of these went on to take their place among the notorious classics of Freemasonry, but no other work of Pike would gain the prominence of his 861 page book -- Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry -- written in 1871, which Haywood describes as "the Scottish Rite Bible" (Haywood, Famous Masons and Masonic Presidents, p.133).
Pike was placed in power in 1859 when, according to Mackey, he was elected to the position of Sovereign Grand Commander of the Southern Supreme Council (Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p.564). He remained the leader of Scottish Rite Freemasonry until his death in 1891. In the 1860s, Giuseppe Mazzini, the Italian revolutionary leader and the worldwide director of Illuminized Freemasonry from 1834 to 1872, established relations with Pike making him the head of the Illuminati's activities in the United States (Kirban, Satan's Angels Exposed, p.157-158 and Ralph Epperson, The Unseen Hand, Tucson: Publius Press, 1985, p.223). Finally, on 20 September 1870 the constitution creating the new super-rite was signed into effect by Pike and Mazzini (Miller, Occult Theocracy, p.215).
Occult Theocracy states: "The two founders divided their powers according to the following plan. To Pike was given dogmatic authority and the title of Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry, while Mazzini held the executive authority with the title of Sovereign Chief of Political Action."
"Pike named the Order the New and Reformed Palladian Rite. Historian Edith Starr Miller describes it as neo-Gnosticism, "teaching that the divinity is dual and that Lucifer is the equal of Adonay (Ibid., 216-217). It is in fact Lucifer who is worshipped within this Rite of Freemasonry."
On 14 July, 1889 Albert Pike issued his instructions to the twenty-three Supreme Councils of the world, recorded by A.C. De La Rive in Za Femme et l'Enfant dans la Franc-Maconnerle Universelle (page 588). The following is a brief excerpt from his speech.
"That which we must say to the crowd is -- We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition."
"To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees -- The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferic doctrine." (Ibid., 220).
The tendencies and tenets of the Order were enveloped in profound mystery, and it externally professed the most perfect orthodoxy. The Chiefs alone knew the aim of the Order: the Subalterns followed them without distrust.
"To acquire influence and wealth, then to intrigue, and at need to fight, to establish the . . . Gnostic and Kabalistic dogma," were the object and means proposed to the Initiated Brethren. " The Papacy and the rival monarchies, they said to them, are sold and bought in these days, become corrupt, and tomorrow, perhaps, will destroy each other. All that will become the heritage of the Temple: the World will soon come to us for its Sovereigns and Pontiffs. We shall constitute the equilibrium of the Universe, and be rulers over the Masters of the World." (Morals and Dogma, p.817).
As a result of Pike's efforts, by the 1880s the United States was well on its way to becoming the dominant power in the drive to usher in the New World Order. The leadership role had shifted from Europe, specifically France, to the United States.
Masons and New Agers privately spoke of the United States as the power that will usher in the "New Atlantis." Occult tradition maintains that the world prior to the flood had become unified under a system of global government based upon ten regions. This global civilization was known as Atlantis and was the most advanced occult society ever. This is why God destroyed it.
Today we have come full cycle and are almost back to the way things were in Noah's day -- the world is on the brink of taking a "quantum leap" into an occult based New World Order, which will consist of ten administrative regions.
This knowledge gives new meaning to the words of Jesus spoken in Matthew. Concerning the End Times...
Jesus said:
As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the Coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:57)
The Masons are NOT good Christians - They have an agenda that from the beginning was and is founded in Satanic practices.
Please do not be offended by this - I am not saying your family may be Satanic - As with wolves and sheep, Masons prefer the anonymity of their cult, and do not expressly admit to being cultic - Many of them do not even recognize it, and truly believe they are part of the "Christian" faith -
Satan / The Deceiver is among us - More now than ever before. I would not encourage running out and calling Masons Satanists - But if the opportunity to Witness comes up, discuss the truly relevant issues, such as Christ crucified - The Cross, the Trinity - Salvation and the great commission.
The Lord will guide your words -
I first learned of them looking through some antique junk - I found a book that was their HandBook - WOW! Try reading that...
Just a little book, too - But just opening it you can almost feel the Holy Spirit trying to tell you to burn it...
There is MUCH available on the writings of these Masons, and particularly Pike - He was an extreme occultist...
FM
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