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Topic: Dominion Theology
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BORN AGAIN
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Dear Femnerd, what I meant was that when Bob Jones (I think that was his name) made you and your husband do that with your hands put together, he was like Love at The Love Family. Instad of acknowledging the precious blood, they were both looking to their own righteousness instad of the imputed righteousness...
When I finally was escorted into the presence of Love, the Spirit of the Lord Jesus came upon me during the meeting, and the Spirit withstood Love during our meeting, and Love kept turning to his entourage and said, "Ho, ho, ho! He's coming on a little strong, isn't he?"
And I was coming on strong, for He who was greater than he was in the world was speaking through me that day. This Bob Jones et al. reminded me of when we begin to put faith in our rigteousness, rather than only believe in imputed righteousness.
Does it now make a little more sense to you? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Your friend in Christ, BORN AGAIN
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femnerd
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posted
Born Again,
I honestly do not get what you meant. I did not then and do not now consider that meeting a blessing to me.
Femnerd
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Spock: After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical; but it is often true."
Posts: 14 | From: KC MO | Registered: Aug 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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Femnerd wrote quote:
My husband and I were also invited to a private meeting with Bob Jones at a small local church in Independence. The funny thing is that we were not even members or in leadership but somehow invite to this meeting. Anyway, Bob showed up wearing his usual garb of overalls and a hawaiian shirt and tennis shoes with his white hair unkempt. Bob rambled on for some time...
That made me think of this.
Before I became a Christian (but I was reading the New Testament already to see what it contained), I was for short time staying with The Love Family in Seattle's Queen Anne Hill, and at the time I was staying in the "Guest House" where all the new-arrivals first stayed.
The Love Family was founded by Love, a handsome charismatic man with long hair, and when a beautiful woman who was also a "disciple of Maharaj Ji" arrived at the "Guest House", I looked out of the upstairs window and saw her being ushered into Love's presence long before I was ushered into Love's presence.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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femnerd
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posted
Wow...what to say.
The greater Kansas City area at one time had a reather large group of dominion churches. Kansas City Fellowhip, eventually became Metro Vineyard Fellowship (aligned with John Wimber), which started 7 churches that remained under authority of then MVF and its leader Mike Bickle.
Heavily enfuenced by "Prophets" this group of churches made headlines both here in the states and overseas. (Some of the leadership had past ties to the Latter Rain Movement and the Manifest Sons of God.) Eventually this group did not stand up to the test of time and all but the main church closed up and one prophet became embroiled in misconduct against women.
While I did not embrace the teachings of this group I was very interested in seeing what they were up to. You all have really spoken well to the teachings of dominion beliefs. But these churches were not strictly dominion as much as a mish mash of beliefs of which dominion theology is but one part. I am no theologian but I am experienced in first hand knowledge of this kind of group. However, thankfully, they had imperfect prophets. They were not always correct. Mike Bickle also became too big to keep a tight watch over all the churches. Hyper charismatic beliefs also had a part in doing them in. All these things combined and more lead to the fall of this locally based part of the dominion movement. My own personal everyday kind of language for them is this: they were one nutty group. I experienced some of the strangest things I have ever seen.
One time at the Lees Summit church we were were to stand up, point at the "Prophet" Bob Jones (not of BJ University)and say "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" I was stunned! I stood there with my mouth open in horror as the church did as requested by the pastor of the church.
My husband and I were also invited to a private meeting with Bob Jones at a small local church in Independence. The funny thing is that we were not even members or in leadership but somehow invite to this meeting. Anyway, Bob showed up wearing his usual garb of overalls and a hawaiian shirt and tennis shoes with his white hair unkempt. Bob rambled on for some time and rarely said more than two sentences together that made sense. Just when I thought he was going to complete a thought he jumped to something else.
His wife(in hair rollers) sat next to me and did not even pay attention to what he was saying. She looked around the room and appeared to be distracted the whole time. Bob ended his "sermon" by having us approach him one at a time. We placed our hands on his, palm to palm at this direction. Whichever of his fingers twitched would indicate the manner of ministry we would have. i.e. the index finger twitching meant one thing ...the thumb another etc etc. We left knowing we had seen smething very wrong. Eventually another local pastor, Ernie Gruen, wrote an expose about MVF and its beliefs.
How could I ever tell you what it was like to physically witness such madness? Yet it continues in other forms. Mike bickle is still a leader in the movement... at least his version of the movement. Bob Jones is who-knows-where. But they are just two of many.
FYI I posted a couple of links that talk about this movement.
Femnerd
Mystical World of bob Jones Ernie Gruen's expose.
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Spock: After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical; but it is often true."
Posts: 14 | From: KC MO | Registered: Aug 2004
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Trafield
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ISIT, I am blessed and God is awesome! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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ISITjhn423
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Hey Trafield - haven't seen you around in a while i hope all is well?
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Trafield
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quote:
The Kingdom is here, when Christians walk in the freedom of Christ and praise God, and see the effects in the physcial, such as healing, prayer answered, people saved, and set free from bondage.
It's spiritual now ,but will be a physical one when Christ returns. The believers will be raptured. He will come for the Chruch.
Amen, WhiteEagle, Amen! ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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WhiteEagle
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posted
Trafield, I liked your quote of the Lord's Prayer at the end of your post.
John the Baptist proclaimed "Repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand!"
Jesus proclaimed the fulfillment of prophecy in Luke 4:18-19. Jesus brought the Kingdom to earth.
Yet He states it's not of this earth when brought before the ones who condemmed him to death.
The Kingdom is here, when Christians walk in the freedom of Christ and praise God, and see the effects in the physcial, such as healing, prayer answered, people saved, and set free from bondage.
It's spiritual now ,but will be a physical one when Christ returns. The believers will be raptured. He will come for the Chruch.
That's why Jesus instructed us to pray:
Our Father which art in Heaven: Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
These are aspects of the spiritual kingdom.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Trafield
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Like in most denominational teachings, there are extreme and moderate positions. The danger in being too critical of 'dominion theology' is denying the power of the Holy Spirit that is available to us now as believers of the living God.
2 Timothy 3:1-5
1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
Do I believe that Jesus cannot return until the church gets things ready? No, of course not.
Daniel 11:35
35“Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.
Do I believe that Jesus sent his Spirit and said that by this Spirit we (as a church) would do greater works than He? Absolutely.
John 14:10-12
10“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Do I believe that, as idwelt believers of the living God, that the Kingdom of God is within us? Absolutely.
Luke 17:21
20And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
Does this mean that we already have all the power of the Kingdom to come? Of course not.
Philippians 3:8-13
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
Matthew 6:9-10
9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Dominion theology smacks of the humanistic, prideful spirit of Anti Christ. The scriptures teach not that the church will issue in the kingsdom, but that Jesus will..
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
That HE IS CHRIST... not the Church!
1 Corinthians 15:23-28 clearly shows that it is Christ who takes dominion and not the Bride/Church. Christ is now waiting for us to subdue the enemy... Christ has done it and it will be Christ who manifest that which he has already done! It is the head that rules and reigns and not the body. In Carnal man the flesh/body rules the head. In God's Economy the HEAD rules the body!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Let me be more clear: many of their beliefs are in fact true. But it's like they take it upon themselves to bring the Kingdom into being. While it is true we are growing up into Christ He is also returning for His bride.
This dominion "spirit" is not new to the earth, I believe it was the same one spoken about in Colossians..
"Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has *not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God."
They forget their Head, and thus they become their own god.
And I want to stress that discerning these things takes more than careful reading of scripture, for haven't all the grandest heretics found their causes in the pages of the Bible? The Spirit leads us into all truth.
Aaron
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SciptureAndPrayers
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IsitJhn423,
Thanks for the advice. I never would have thought of that.
But what do you think about it?
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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ISITjhn423
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The only thing i can say is read your Bible and look for the answers wether DT is all truth or partial truth or no truth, than you will know for sure if you are guilty of calling light - darkness.
Jesus is the Kingdom of God and if Jesus's Spirit is in people, than the Kingdom of God has come.
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SciptureAndPrayers
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posted
Niedziejkore,
I agree with you. The article which I posted was actually about the mildest one that I could find on the subject. Some of their viewpoints are just plain abhorent. For instance that everyone must by law be a Christian, and anyone who will not, or disobeys the law, is subject to and probably will be executed by stoning, burning at the stake, or hanging. This, according to some adherents, would even apply to disobedient children. Also proposed is that women will be the property of their fathers until marriage, at which time they become the property of their husbands. And they seem to universally promote the reinstitution of slavery.
Another frightening aspect is what Aaron alluded to with his two-cents. Although a lot of their beliefs are offensive, many of them, at least at first, are very appealing. For instance the mandate for having One Nation (and eventually) One World Under God. Or the idea of abolishing secular schools in place of private Christian schools. Or, in general, the idea of God's Kingdom on earth here and now. Those and many others are very appealing to believers, but the price they want us to pay seems too high. And aren't they really saying that since God seems unable to establish His Kingdom in our time frame, that we'll just do it for Him? That way when Jesus gets here He can just kick back, 'cause everything will be done.
Let's hear some more thoughts.
![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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Aaron
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Like all grand theologies of today: some of it is error some of it is right on the money.
That's my $.02 ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Niedziejkore
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I, for one, loathe dominion theology. This is nothing more than a merging of imperialist and christian beliefs.
It's kind of like Zionism in my eyes... I don't believe the more prominent dominion theologists are really christians (or the kind of "christians" I would admire). However, christianity seems to be the vehicle in which it is spread.
when did this movement start? the 80s? 70?
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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SciptureAndPrayers
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Okay folks. Time to stir things up again. I put this in this thread because it definitely pertains to our views of the end times. Although Dominion Theology is nothing new, it is definitely making its presence known, particularly in America.
Dominion Theology/Kingdom Now/Reconstructionism
Blessing or Curse?*
- There is a movement about that is casting a long shadow for its size. It is known as Reconstructionism, Kingdom Now theology, Theonomy, and/or Dominion theology, and it is a curious blend of Reformed/Calvinist theology and Charismatic influence. While there are relatively few who would call themselves reconstructionists, a number of the movement's ideas have infiltrated the thinking and actions of many professing believers, often without them knowing it. The movement is led by such theologians as Rousas J. Rushdoony; Gary North; Ray Sutton; Greg Bahnsen (deceased); David Chilton, and by Charismatic leaders such as Earl Paulk. But their ideas are often reflected by non-reconstructionists such as Pat Robertson, D. James Kennedy, John Whitehead, Franky Schaeffer, and Jerry Falwell. [In spite of the fact that many Dominionists-Reconstructionists-Theonomists are hyper-Calvinists, yet at the same time they write and speak as if they believe that they must help God get things under control down here on earth, so that the kingdom (their version of it) can be set up in order that the King Himself can reign properly (through them, of course!).]
- Dominion theology (the belief-system behind the Reconstructionist movement) teaches that through the coming of Christ the believer has dominion over every area of life. We are now in the Kingdom of God (note the similar view of the Kingdom that the Vineyard movement takes, as well as the plethora of Christian songs being written implying that we are in the Kingdom at the present time), and as a result, we should be reigning with Christ over the earth (as Rev. 5:10 says). The question is when will we reign. If the Kingdom is on earth now, then we should have dominion now, so say the Dominionists. Many of us non-reconstructionists proclaim this same thought when we sing the popular Charismatic song "Majesty" (written by hyper-charismatic Jack Hayford), which invites us to "Come glorify Christ Jesus, the King" -- after all, "Kingdom authority flows from His throne unto His own." With this authority from the King, we are to reclaim the earth for Christ, not just spiritually, but socially, economically (it is no accident that one of the Reconstructionists' organizations is called "The Institute for Christian Economics"), and politically. The dominion of the earth is accomplished not only through prayer and evangelism, but through political process and social reformation. [The Dominion/Reconstructionist organization Coalition on Revival (COR) was established for this purpose.] Christ will not (and cannot) return to earth until the church has accomplished this task, so say the dominionists.
- Dominion theology is predicated upon three basic beliefs:
(a) Satan usurped man's dominion over the earth through the temptation of Adam and Eve;
(b) The Church is God's instrument to take dominion back from Satan; and
(c) Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth's governmental and social institutions.
More specifically, what does Dominion Theology (DT) teach? Here are the highlights:
(a) The Old Testament (OT) Law is our rule of life for today. Although DT teaches that keeping of the Law is not a condition for salvation, it is a condition for sanctification. (However, some of the COR's official statements appear to specifically condition salvation upon OT Law-keeping!);
(b) In addition, the OT Law is to govern over society as well. Since we are called to subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28), DT teaches that God's Law should rule (or dominate) all aspects of society. This view is known as Theonomy (or God's law), and is described by Greg Bahnsen as: "The Christian is obligated to keep the whole law of God as a pattern for sanctification and that this law is to be enforced by the civil magistrate" (Theonomy, p. 34). This would mean that Christians would be obligated to keep the whole OT Law except in a case in which the New Testament (NT) explicitly cancels a command, such as the sacrificial system;
(c) A central piece of DT is its belief in covenant theology. As a result, it makes no distinction between the church and Israel (i.e., the church has become "spiritual Israel"). However, DT goes beyond traditional covenant theology and teaches that the church is to be governed by the same laws, is subject to the same curses, and is promised the same blessings as Israel;
(d) DT teaches a high level of social and political activism. If the Kingdom of God is to gradually take dominion over the earth, it only makes sense that Christians should be attempting to change society through the changing of laws and through social action;
(e) Followers of DT, like many charismatics, especially the Latter Rain Movement, look for a great end time revival in which the masses will turn to Christ. As a result, DT does not believe in the rapture of the church. According to DT, the world should be, and is becoming, a better place through the efforts of Christians (cf. 2 Thes. 2:1-12);
(f) As with many others who follow the teachings of George Ladd, DT believes that we are in the Kingdom age, but the Kingdom in another sense is yet to come. We are in the Kingdom, and have Kingdom authority, but on the other hand, we are ushering in the Kingdom through our efforts. "The Kingdom is now, but not yet," is a popular DT slogan;
(g) DT is postmillennial in its eschatology. It is believed that as a result of the reconstruction of society by Biblical principals, that the final aspect of the Kingdom of God will be established on earth. Christ cannot return until a certain amount of dominion is achieved by the church. It is believed that the curse will slowly be removed as the world is won over. Even disease and death will be all but eliminated before Christ returns to the earth;
(h) DT is preterist in its interpretation of prophecy. This means that they teach that virtually all prophecies which most Christians believe are still future, have in fact been fulfilled already, mainly between the years A.D. 30 and 70. In David Chilton's book, Days of Vengeance, he says that the book of Revelation, "is not about the Second Coming of Christ. It is about the destruction of Israel and Christ's victory over His enemies [during the first century]" (p. 43); and
(i) DT uses an allegorical hermeneutic, especially in reference to prophecy. So we find that the Great Tribulation took place at the fall of Israel in A.D. 70; the Antichrist refers to the apostasy of the Church prior to the fall of Jerusalem; the Beast of Revelation was Nero and the Roman Empire, etc.;
- One of the most important distinctives of DT is its belief in Theonomy. DT teaches that Christians are under the Law as a way of life, and are obligated to ultimately bring the world under that Law. This concept is based on several passages. First, Gen. 1:28 commands Adam to subdue the earth. Adam lost his ability to do so to Satan as a result of sin. The church should now be in the process of reclaiming from the devil what Adam lost. (You will note a hint of the Spiritual Warfare movement here.) Secondly, the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20) commands the followers of Christ to disciple all the nations, which we are told, goes beyond personal salvation and sanctification to the reformation of society;
Matt. 5:17-19 is the passage upon which the system hinges. DT claims that the word "fulfill" actually means "confirm." Thus, Christ did not in any sense fulfill, or complete, or do away with the Law, rather he confirmed it as our rule of life today. The normal and best translation of plerosai is "fulfill" not "confirm." Besides this, however, we have the weight of the NT teaching concerning the Law. The epistles clearly teach that believers are no longer under the Law of Moses (Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:2-4; Gal. 3:24,25; 5:18), having been set free from that bondage to serve under grace and the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2);
And besides, if the Christian is still under Law, why do we not keep the OT ceremonial laws? DT's answer is that the Law was divided into three sections: civil, moral, and ceremonial. The ceremonial law, it is claimed, has been fulfilled by Christ and is no longer incumbent upon the believer, but not so the moral and civil parts of the law. Therefore, we are to live under the moral law and seek to establish, in our society, the civil system of OT Israel. The problem with this view is that nowhere in the Bible is the Law broken into these three sections; this is something invented by men. Whenever the Law is mentioned, the Scriptures are speaking of the whole Law as a unit. The Jews were as obligated to keep the sacrificial system and commandments concerning food and dress (ceremonial law) as they were the Ten Commandments (moral law). If the NT says that Christ fulfilled the Law, and that as Christians we are no longer under the Law, it means the whole Law. Church age saints are no longer obligated to any aspect of the OT Law. No one has the right to arbitrarily claim that we have been set free from some of the Law (the parts we don't like), but that the rest of the Law is obligatory. Either the believer has been released from the whole Law (Rom. 7:4,6) or none of it. [As Thomas Ice reminds us, "The Law of Moses was given to a specific people (Israel), to be followed in a specific location (the land of Israel), to deal with their specific situation. Therefore, the Law cannot simply be obeyed today by the Church, as was expected of Israel when it was given to that nation" (Biblical Perspectives, Vol. II, No. 6). On the positive side, Ice comments, "Paul teaches in Galatians 3 and 4 that Christ has set us free from the bondage of the Law, not so that we can be lawless as the Reconstructionists insist, instead, so that we can walk in the newness of the motivation of the Holy Spirit" (Ibid., p. 2).]
- There are many negative effects that the teachings of DT are having on evangelical Christianity today. Four of these would be:
(a) Reconstructionists teach that the mission of the church goes beyond the spiritual transformation of individuals, to a mandate to change society, a "moral patriotism," if you will, in opposition to secular humanism. For Christ to be pleased with Christians, thereby, they must become political and social activists. We must change the laws of the land, gear up to elect Christians to office, and generally seek to take dominion over our world and bring it under the Law of Moses. We see the influence of this thinking even in those who may know little about DT -- James Dobson, Larry Burkett, the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson, Promise Keepers, Charles Colson and the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document (ECT), and Operation Rescue, are but a few of the evidences that reconstructionist thinking is beginning to dominate the so-called evangelical world;
(b) Motivation for godly living, based upon the blessed hope -- the return of Christ (Titus 2:16) -- is replaced with the task of restructuring society. This cultural mandate to restructure/restore society is a task that may take thousands of years, even by the DT's own admission (approximately 36,000 years, according to David Chilton);
(c) If we are in the Kingdom of God now, then the Charismatics are correct to teach that health and prosperity is the right of every believer today. This is why "Reconstruction" Calvinists and "Kingdom Now" Charismatics have formed at least a loose unity -- they both have the same world view. They are not looking for Christ to return and set up His Kingdom; they are attempting to set it up for Him; and
(d) A theological anti-Semitism exists in the Dominionist plan to replace of Old Testament Israel with the Church, often called the "New Israel" (i.e., "replacement theology" -- the church replaces the Jews as the new or true Israel, and Israel has no future as a distinct nation within God's plan). They believe that Israel does not have a future different from any other nation. Historically, replacement theology has been the theological foundation upon which anti-Semitism has been built within the confines of professing Christianity. While reconstructionists do believe that the individual Jews will be converted to Christ in mass in the future, almost none of them believe that national Israel has a future, and thus, the Church has completely taken over the promises of national Israel. (Reconstructionist David Chilton said that "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God's Kingdom. ... the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation." Reconstructionists believe that the Church is now that new nation, which is why Christ destroyed the Jewish state. Reconstructionists DeMar and Leithart have said, "In destroying Israel, Christ transferred the blessings of the kingdom from Israel to a new people, the church."
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* Unless otherwise indicated, some of the material in this and companion reports has been excerpted and/or adapted from three sources: (1) "Dominion Theology," Pastor Gary E. Gilley, Southern View Chapel, January, 1996; (2) Dominion Theology: Blessing or Curse?, by Thomas Ice and H. Wayne House; and (3) Vengeance Is Ours: The Church in Dominion, by Albert James Dager.
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In Christ's love. Amen.
Posts: 345 | From: Rochester NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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