|
Author
|
Topic: Capital Punishment
|
pp2mnE
New Member
Member # 2900
|
posted
Hi, I'm new to this board and was glad to see this topic here. I recently came over from a board that is for prison pen pals and am relieved to be here amongst believers.
As someone who writes to those incarcerated, I am against capital punishment, though it has not always been that way for me. There are people sitting in prisons who are not guilty of crimes they've been accused of, but have been falsely accused. How could they be put to death when they are innocent? How can we play God and take someone's life? There is always that chance that the person sitting in prison will come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Posts: 3 | From: California | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
|
posted
Amen Brother Dale..
![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
Hello to all, have missed being here. Thanks to Brother Barry I am back, he gave me a computer, mine crashed. Praise Yahweh for His love and provision and the love of the Body.
Capital Punishment how a Christian should respond.
A Christian’s example in all issues should be what would Yeshua do. (The heart of every issue, is the issue of the heart.)
Adultery was a crime, punishable by death in Yeshua’s days on the earth.
Yeshua gives us a principle of how we should respond to capital punishment, when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Him.
Those that brought her were all ready to stone her, when the Pharisee’s saw an opportunity to trap Yeshua.
But Yeshua knew their thoughts. Yeshua said let those of you that are without sin cast the first stone. In today’s verbal communication would have been “you that is without sin, pull the switch” or “you that is without sin, inject the needle” or “you without sin, pull the trigger on that gun.
5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Luke 6:38 is used by most to refer to money, but it is referring to mercy.
6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
What measure of mercy you give to others, the same measure Yahweh will give back to you.
Many would say but I have the right to protect my loved ones or myself, but Yeshua said he that seeks to save his life will lose it. The Christian is no longer his own, he has been bought with a great price, the Blood of Yeshua.
What those in the world system do is none of the child of Yahweh’s business.
The Christian is not of this world, we belong to another Kingdom and the only laws in that Kingdom are “Love” and “Mercy”.
In these two “Laws” Yeshua said
22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
That person found guilty of a crime punishable by death, is you or me but for the Grace of Yahweh.
1COR 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
I respect the position of those that disagree, but I would ask you to support your position from Yeshua’s teachings.
Yeshua taught if some one strikes you, turn and let them strike you again.
Yeshua taught return good to those that do evil to you.
Yeshua taught love your enemy.
Yeshua taught bless them that curse you.
As Yeshua’s Body in the earth today our response should be the same as Yeshua the head of the Body.
When I had only been in the Church for a short time, maybe a year and a half. I saw the most wonderful example of the love of Yeshua. A couple in the Church, Johnny and Martha Turner had three beautiful children a girl 11, another girl 9, and a boy 6. The children had walked a little ways from their home into some nearby woods to pick berries. There was a deep ditch between the children and the road, about 8’ deep and 6’ wide. Two teenagers a young girl 16 and a young man, I never heard his age. Were racing down this road the children were on. The young girl lost control of the car she was driving, jumped the ditch and ran over all three children. The little boy was killed at point of contact. The two girls were brought to the emergency room, both in critical condition. The little 9 years old died a week later. Johnny and Martha now only had one child. We / the Church in Orange, Texas saw an amazing demonstration of the love of Yeshua. Never once did anyone hear an angry word from these two loving parents. We saw tears of the pain, at the loss of those they loved, but greater was the compassion we saw that this mother and dad felt for the 16-year-old girl that had just killed their children. They ask permission from the parents of the girl if they and our pastor could come over and talk to the girl. They were granted permission. Johnny and Martha went over and sought to let the young girl understand that they held no bitterness or anger toward her, and their only desire was to see her find the love of Jesus/Yeshua. (This is the only correct example of the love of Yeshua)
Can you see Yeshua / Jesus pulling the switch on the electric chair, sticking the needle of a lethal injection in someone’s arm, or shooting a gun at anyone for any reason. I am sorry, I cannot picture that. So I have to say every Christian, let us say and do only what our master would do.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wonderful_sky
Advanced Member
Member # 1808
|
posted
this is Jim sky's hubby.... I have this to say, as i recall the thief on Jesus right hand side while under capital punishment was saved and the only confirmed soul in heaven at this time. as for if someone is executed how are we to know or judge what is in their heart at the time that they leave this world and meet God? The Bible says very clearly that we are to follow the laws of God... and also the laws of man.
Jim
--------------------
He who kneels down to God, can stand up to anything ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Posts: 220 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Interesting points Barry. Let me ask you something. Let me preface by saying I am not in disagreement with you, I dont think..
But here is my question. Do you believe that the Bible teaches that all governments... even the bad ones are ordained and put in place by God. Was Pharoah's Egypt? or Empirical Rome?
In answer to your question, I could not pull the switch on someone who murdered my chid, much less on my child. I know that I would be at the prison visiting and trying to witness to my own child's murderer. I understand well forgiveness because so much has been given to me. I can look at the worst crimminal and see that this is some mother's child, and this is someone Christ died for... to heal and to give freedom from bondage and sin and demonic oppression.
Would my unwillingness to execute this person be against the will fo God and therefor sin? Whoa tough question. I guess that would depend on the position God had allowed me to take in society. If that postion was one of executor and the person had been rightly accused, convicted and sentenced then yes, I guess my refusal would be sin. I am thankful that this is not the position in life God has given me.
I personally do not believe that even sin takes a life before God allows it, I may be wrong, but it is how I believe at this point. I would welcome any scripture you might know to the contrary.
As to the issue on abortiion. I believe that we speak against abortion because it is sin, life is precious and man doesnt have to right to ake it accept in the execution of justice. The Baby that is aborted did not commit a capital crime. Therefore, abortion is murder plain and simple.
I do think however that Civil Goverments are ordained by God to deal with crime and punish people for crime. And the scripture sets and example of just punishment that is severe. But God is severe. If dont want to do the time we dont commit the crime. Do unto others and you would have them do unto you.
I also think that when we live in a society where a government has chosen Capital Punishment, we do not rise up against that government as Christians.
I also see that if we must be involved in that government with regard to that issue, it should be in the area of insuring that NOT one is executed for a crime he did not commit, and also with the judged that they might hear the Gospel and come to Christ before their execution.
I however do not believe that it is sin to inact capital Punishment on one who has himself without doubt committed a Capital crime; I see that is justice.
13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. {killeth…: Heb. smiteth the life of a man}
18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. {beast for…: Heb. life for life}
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
Having said all that, I dont see that this is always the best way and apparently neither did God. Moses committed murder but was allowed to escape the death penalty in Egypt and was used mightily by God afterward.
I dont see that the stoning of Stephen was anything but sin as steven had taken no life and stoned no one.
PS: I agree with you about the Lawn Mower!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
|
posted
Greetings my Dear Sister;
Originally Posted BY Linda:
quote:
I dont have the fear that you do Barry, because I believe that God is ultimately in control and I dont believe that any human life passes from the earth that God does not allow to pass.
While this is certainly true, God was, IS, and always will be in control, there is an allowance for a season, because of sin.
Else why would anyone speak out against abortion?
Not one baby could pass without God allowing it.
Vengence is God's and that is HIS business is the way i see it. To see capital punishment as GOd ordained (for the believer) to me is to say again "and eye for an eye" and a "tooth for a tooth".. This is the principal for the world and not the believer!
If the principal of capital punishment bears out, then if your daughter, son, spouse whom you dearly love and is a gift from God, commited a hienous crime worthy of death...WOULD YOU pull the switch for thier death? If not would you not be out of the will of GOD.
i surely do not hava all the answers here, but it seems that if one truly love his neighbor as himself that he could not pull that switch.
i did not always have this stand on capital punishment, but when one looks to Yahshua on the cross and the soljiers that crucified Him and those that were shouting and glad to see HIM thier, Yahshua [Jesus] stated:
LK 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Again on this wise:
As the leaders of the day were stoning Stephen to death (thier capital punishment) he stated:
ACTS 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
i know the light could be on my family as well, i know that thier are countless numbers of abducted children, and if (God forbid) it was one of mine, i hope that i would not be crying out for thier death, but that God would somehow save that one so we could all meet with Abraham, Issac , and Jacob. i do not know for sure what i would do or say; for it is speculation on my part...but i shall not deny the principal of the truth as i see it.
i know that the ones here that have been around a while, know my heart and that im not being contentious, nor im i angry, but sharing the way i see it from my vantage point, and the scriptures.
Should thier be punishment for sin, yes.
But Bro. Barry i thought you quoted the scripture "eye for "eye".
i would say yes i did, i see "eye for and eye" as you took a life, i will take yours as thus saith the LAW.
i think that Yahshua wants us to go the extra mile as HE said. For example if someone is in my garage and he is stealing my lawn mower, i have the right in the state of Texas to shoot that man, to use deadly force to stop him.
A life, a soul, for a lawn mower? i hardly think so. What i should do is go to the man and ask sir, do you have a need that maybe i can help you?..Sounds trite does it not? But i believe that is what Yahshua would do.
Not only that Yahshua would probably tell the man that he could have the lawn mower, so as it would not be stealing, and help him load it.
Linda said:
quote:
But you are so right about those who jeer and applaude! It is as though the Roman Games are still happening. I do not understand this and I never will, and I certainly cannot understand it in a Christian. As Christians we should be on our knees in prayer for the soul not just of the one executed, but of the executors as well, not jeering and applauding! That is a sad statement on the condition of humanity.
Exactly my Sister;
Melisa said the quote about the Romans Games before you posted...We could see "the lions" and here the crowd shouting for "more blood" it was truly sad.
Lets say for instance im wrong, and we abolished capital punishment, and instead used life imprisonment. Even if not one, absolutely not one person that would have been "put to death" for thier crimes, was saved. What did we lose?
Would not that show our compasion and our love for the un-lovely, and perhaps to err on the side of caution would be the better part of valor..
But lets say for instance im truly right, i shudder to think of the consequences.
This is how i see capital punishment, like i sated, i surely do not have all the answers, and maybe my reasoning is off here, but it is the way i see it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
In Him;
barry
--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Have any of you ever seen the movie called The Green Mile? I dont watch secular movies normally, I just cant give that much time to pointlessness. I would rather be reading or writing or something constructive. But my husband does watch secular movies and this one was on a while back and he had gone to sleep watching it. When I came in it was still on and I became mezmerized by it. I tell you I will never get the images out of my mind. It was set in the thirties and they used an electric chair that was very crude and the movie was quite graphic. I honestly do not know how one does such a job and how they do not live in complete fear of having to answer for executing the wrong person.
I think that is my problem with the death penalty. I dont think it is unscriptural, but I dont think man can justly judge. How many have been executed in error?
I dont have the fear that you do Barry, because I believe that God is ultimately in control and I dont believe that any human life passes from the earth that God does not allow to pass. I can tell you that I have been in situations in my prodigal days that I know that it is only by the grace of God that I was not killed, and I know that it was grace that preserved this life of mine until the day that I was where he needed me to be in relationship with him. When I go whether in a car accident, or in my sleep, or at the hand of a murderer, it will be God that allows the breath of life to cease in this body. And if God wants to stop an execution because one that is called by him is not where they need to be, then all the courts in the world cant stop God. I dont think that life passes from the earth before its time.
But you are so right about those who jeer and applaude! It is as though the Roman Games are still happening. I do not understand this and I never will, and I certainly cannot understand it in a Christian. As Christians we should be on our knees in prayer for the soul not just of the one executed, but of the executors as well, not jeering and applauding! That is a sad statement on the condition of humanity.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
God bless you my Brother in Christ Barry.
I could not remember Sister Karla's name until just this morning, as I have a very poor memory for names. It must have been a comfort to her to know that there were Brothers and Sisters praying for her in her greatest hour of testing. I honor your faithfulness Brother and although I support the death penalty, I was in prayer for our Sister during that time, that Jesus would surround her with His awesome love and bring her strength and an ever deepening faith.
The wounds which you endured during that darkness are deep, but our love and faith is strengthened in the fires of adversity. Although I agreed with the carrying-out of her sentence, I knew in my heart that the Sister in Christ who was executed was NOT the lost child who was originally sentenced.
Although I support the death penalty I do not do so lightly or with a cavalier attitude, for each life is priceless.
Thank you for being there for our Sister.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
|
posted
Yes she was..
Sister Karla (Carla) Faye Tucker...
My wife and i (with the children) drove to Huntsville to pray at the execution...
i have never seen so many people in one place crying out for her blood.. It was truly sad and sickening to see those that had so much hate.
We were definately a minority, people with signs and shouting kill her , kill her.
It brought my mind back to the Lord Yahshua [Jesus] when he went to the cross.
How the shouting must have been deafning.
We wept not so much for our Sister who went to be with her Lord..But for the crowd, the hate.
When the announcement came that she was gone, the crowd cheered as if it were a touchdown in the super bowl..My heart sank and i wept for the souls of the lost there that day.
Even if one were to believe in the death penalty, how could they glory in it...so sad..
What have we become my Brother.
People claiming that God was thier Lord stating that they would glady pull the switch on her life.
i also respect you too Drew, from what i know of you, i believe in my heart that you too love the Lord..
What ever side of the issue one might be on, we should never glory in the death of any one esp. the lost, made in God's image the same as we.
God Bless
barry
--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
I honor Brother Barry's heart for the lost, and his steadfast faithfulness to God's Word. God bless you my Brother in Christ.
I believe in the right of the state to impose capital punishment for the most heinous of crimes.
Romans 13:
: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain : for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5: Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6: For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
I connote all forms of state justice together. I see very little difference in the premeditated murderor of the innocent being executed, the policeman being called upon to use necessary force in his sidearm to shoot to stop an armed felon, and the soldier on the battlefield being required to use lethal force against an enemy.
The one who by choice of action, requires the state to utilize lethal force, takes their own life because of their choice of actions. Their choice of actions carries the supreme penalty.
I do not consider it to be revenge but rather justice and consequences.
The Lord willingly went to Calvary on my behalf, and for the sins of all. The Lord Jesus paid the full penalty for our sins, and although He could have called ten-thousand angels to His relief, He endured for ours.
Jesus did not condemn the state's right to execute judgement. Paul did not condemn the state's right to execute judgement, and he appealed to Rome to thawrt the Jewish enemies.
God bless Brother Barry for his heart, and the love of Christ which dwells therein.
If it was necessary I would use necessary up to and including lethal force against a predator, to protect the vulnerable. I believe that there was a Sister in Christ who was executed a couple years back, in Texas, for her participation in a most brutal slaying. She came to our Lord in prison, but when she was executed she paid the just penalty for her actions prior to conversion.
May God pierce through the darkness, break the chains of bondage and set the captives free.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
borntwice
Advanced Member
Member # 2761
|
posted
Although you dcided not to answer what I asked you still answered my question. The death penality was given by the Lord and has never been done away with.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
|
posted
borntwice asks:
quote:
If the Old Testiment was stll in force would you obey the death penality law or would you stand aginst it using the same reasoning since those poeple needed saved also?
First that is a hypothetical question.
Yahshua [Jesus] was telling them "you've heard it said" ; He's refering to the civil law; and He stated: the scriptures quoted below.. BUT I say unto you.
When you pull the execution switch, you have become Judge, Jury, and Executioner of that soul.
Thats Gods business, not mine..
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
borntwice
Advanced Member
Member # 2761
|
posted
barrykind
Can I ask you a question? If the Old Testiment was stll in force would you obey the death penality law or would you stand aginst it using the same reasoning since those poeple needed saved also?
Posts: 91 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
|
posted
im against capitol punishment..
i dont believe in Pre-destination the way the Calvanist teach it so me thinks that when you pull the switch on someone (electric chair)-(lethal injection etc)--your condemning that soul to hell..
i believe that if someone gets life - it should be life, 20 years it should be 20 years etc. As long as they are alive there is a chance for salvation, im not God and i dont know who will and who will not be saved.. Thats Gods business.
Many reasons we could go into here, one is if you love your neighbor as you love yourself, and love your enemies...how could you pull the death switch????
Could you pull that switch on your spouse, best friend, family if they were found guilty???
God almighty is the avenger, if by God's choice and judgment one is put to death, praise the name of YaHWeH... But that should not be our decision. God sets up governments and uses them at HIS will, but still not our business..As the way i see it.
The kingdoms of this world are in satan's hand, its not our kingdom..we operate in a kingdom that has spiritual weapons, not carnal; we are above that plane in God's kingdom. Were not of this world, were pilgrams folks, just passing through...we plainly seek a country whose builder and maker is GOD>>> amen
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
borntwice
Advanced Member
Member # 2761
|
posted
Hello newworldorder
that is a very interesting philosophy,however it has some problems. First Jesus was not under the death penalty for a crime. Jesus was simply murdered. Also Jesus was the One who gave the death penalty and He never changed it. The death penalty actually came before the law and has never been changed. There is absolutely no reason biblically to believe that He does not want it today.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
newworldorder
First Post
Member # 2736
|
posted
Hi! I'm new to this site. My name is Laura and I am 20-year old from North Carolina.
I am strongly anti-capital punishment. I believe that since Jesus was a victim of capital punishment, he would be against it too. I believe that if someone kills another person, then putting that person to death makes you no better than a murderer. We should practice forgiveness.
How do you feel?
Posts: 1 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
