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Author
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Topic: The Gift of Tongues
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Konnie
Community Member
Member # 1389
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posted
I believe a person can be saved and in a right relationship with God even though he/she doesn't speak in tongues.
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NO Jesus, No Peace. Know Jesus, know peace.
Posts: 10 | From: Garber, Oklahoma | Registered: Apr 2003
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jazzinc
Advanced Member
Member # 1331
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posted
njclary,
I believe that speaking in tongues is for everybody under two conditions. The first is that they are saved, and the second is that they're hungry for God. Let me clear up something though. There is a misconception that the speaking of tongues on the day of Pentecost and the Gift of Tongues Paul mentions in Corinthians is the same thing. It's not. There is a difference. The tongues that happened on the day of Pentecost is for all of us truly born-again Christians. It is for our own personal edification and encouragement. The gift that Paul talks about is a message in tounges given by the Holy Spirit for the church. And that is supposed to be followed by an interpretation. I hope that has cleared up a little. As stated before, God wants to baptize all of us in His Holy Spirit.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Lydia
Advanced Member
Member # 530
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posted
You're right, Joel. Some really horrible things are happening in my life right now and I am a bit grumpy. I apologize to everyone. Please forgive me. And please, please pray for me.
Lydia ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Posts: 60 | From: Miss Missouri country | Registered: Oct 2002
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njclary
unregistered
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posted
Lydia; Gently, gently, child; There are no hard and fast rules for the power of the Holy Spirit to work in ones life. The Spirit moves in the Spirits time, The Spirit works in the Spirits time. The Spirit does something different with each member as the Gifting offers.
Some may speak in tongues, some may encourage, some may teach, some may pray, some may comfort, some may exhort, some may lay hands, all are a part. God has never stopped working through His own, But His own stopped working out of ignorance, and fear.
Now understand, I hold a more conservative view of the allottment of the Grace Gifts, But never will I negate the Idea of All the Gifts of the Spirit.
God Bless
Joel
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Lydia
Advanced Member
Member # 530
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posted
Dear BHL,
Why doesn't everyone we witness to get saved?
Why doesn't everyone we lay hands on get healed?
Why doesn't the gift of faith move a monstrous leader?
Why doesn't a word of knowledge always reveal the evil in man's inner being?
Why doesnt' a word of wisdom convince everyone of the will of God?
My dear friend, Fronia Dunlap, decided a month ago that she wanted to go home. So she did. A few years back she went on a mission trip to Guatemala. When she stood to speak, she said the Holy Spirit came upon her and she began to speak in tongues. She was not aware until the service was over that she had spoken perfectly their language.
Hundreds came to Jesus that day. It was glorious.
So tell us, why weren't all the lost saved? If the gift operated as you believe it should, then why?
I've told you before and it must be repeated. There are two kinds of tongues and possibly three. The miracle on the day of Pentecost was two-fold. Speaking and hearing. And this dual set of the miraculous is not found in the Bible again.
Do you believe in prayer? How many chapters are there in the Bible on prayer? Does that mean that prayer is to be ignored or is not important?
There is an entire chapter devoted to spiritual gifts and tongues in particular. That clearly demonstrates the importance of them. Paul scolds the church regarding misuse and instructs them on the correct usage. THEN he tells these overly zealous tongue talkers, "I speak in tongues more than you all."
Now don't give me that, yabutt, he says he would rather...
In spite of the misuse, he still spoke MORE THAN THEY did.
Do you follow the instructions given here? How often do you receive and use the other 8 gifts? Or are you so set on proving tongues should be used as you interpret that you are robbing yourself of the power which comes with the gifts?
I challenge you all to smooth you ruffled feathers and HONESTLY ask God to show you the truth regarding this matter. If you don't, what are you going to tell Him when He asks why you didn't?
In His love,
Lydia
Posts: 60 | From: Miss Missouri country | Registered: Oct 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Tal, Lydia, and all
I believe in all the gifts, YEHWEH same yesterday, today, and forever.
If the gift is the same, the operation should be the same.
Why then do those who profess tongues, when going to a foreign land need an interpreter?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
chard + actor = character= NJ
![[Rolling]](graemlins/xxrotflmao.gif)
I am very concerned about my health, or perhaps my mind... not only did I get it but I thought it was funny!
Scarry... Very Sacry!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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njclary
unregistered
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posted
Did you know that the word character might come from two words meaning a burntout thespian? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[could'nt help myself]
Joel
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njclary
unregistered
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posted
I'm a character, fundamentally
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Lydia
Advanced Member
Member # 530
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posted
I'm a Fundamental Charismatic.
You would be surprised how many million of us there are.
![[Big Clap]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posts: 60 | From: Miss Missouri country | Registered: Oct 2002
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njclary
unregistered
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posted
Dear Help, and Lydia; The Gift of tongues as well as the Gift of Prophacy will always be a bone of contention between the Charismatic and fundamentalist.
Neither are wrong as the denominational interpretations teach.
One thing; WE must NEVER negate what God can do.
I myself do not accept the Charismatic teaching of Tongues, Prophacy and Holy Spirit Healings.
But that does not mean I do not believe in these things. I DO. but not as they are displayed today. In the same breath, I will state that the Charismatic teaching bears some understanding. I have seen some miraculous healings and I myself pray for Holy Spirit healings. I have heard tongues,this I do have a problem with. But at the same time God Knows the heart of the speaker.
This would be a good study for the fundamentalist, to develope an understanding of the Charismatic teaching. and to understand God still works today.
God Bless
Joel
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Lydia
Advanced Member
Member # 530
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posted
No one here is judging anyone by their gifts or their fruit. If you believe they are, you are way off base.
Gifts are given as the need arises. Fruit are often a result of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit who gives us the power to live "holy" lives. After all it is His first name.
The fruit and the gifts should be obvious in EVERY believer. One without the other makes for a dysfunctional Christian.
Posts: 60 | From: Miss Missouri country | Registered: Oct 2002
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wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
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posted
One thing to remeber about the issue of tongues, the Bible never says to judge people by their gifts but by their fruit. Tongues is not listed as a fruit but as a gift. If you are judging a beleiver by their gifts and not their fruit you are off base.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tal
Community Member
Member # 810
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posted
Well put... but I will enlighten you on how speaking in tounges helps other people.
(This might sound harsh)
First, we all know that we must glorify God and to live for Jesus Christ, not people. (just wait, keep reading) For example, when you go on a mission trip you are going for Christ foremost, not because of the people who need help, but because you are sent by Christ.
However, in order to live for Christ, we need to help people. Jesus Christ would pray often before he ministered to others.
My point is that the purpose of speaking in tounges is to connect with God through the spirit in order to build ourselves up to reach other people and to make it through the day.
The minister's preparation is mostly done in the closet, praying and listening to God. We can only be led by the spirit of God. If we do something on impulse, we can screw God's plan up.
Let me know if you have any questions.
(You might just be pulling my leg, and already know all this.)
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"Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
~ Screwtape
Posts: 9 | From: United States | Registered: Dec 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Lydia:
Yes, Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 shows that people can pray in an unknown language where there is no one to undestand but God. (I have to confess that I am not sure I really saw this before.)
Yes,I would understand this as praying in the spirit. (I think I missed this point in another post) But as I read the rest of this text, what I hear is that the people of Corinth are being chastised for misuse of this... they are edifying self; when it would be better if they were edifying others or God.
Do you hear something different in the remainder of this text?
Paul clearly says (great you all speak in tongues this is wonderful, but seek to do what edifies others!)
1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. {of spiritual gifts: Gr. of spirits}
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
I will stop posting here as not to appear to argue. To those of you who speak in tongues; please forgive me if you have understood my posts to say that I deny your gift or the value of it; My intent was not to do this, but to state that the gift of tongues is given for a purpose, and I see that purpose as I see all gifts from God, to edify and serve OTHERS, that He may be glorifed in us. Our benifit from His gifts is as I see it serindipitous.
This is the picture of Jesus. He is edified, and glorified by the Father above all that ever is or was, or will be... and yet he did nothing to glorify or edify himself, but he sought to serve others.
I do believe that today the gift of tongues is misused as it was in Paul's day. I also believe it is imitated, even faked in many churches today.
I will stop posting here as it is not my intent to argue; not is it my intent to appear to judge any here who do have the gift of tongues or to sound as though I deny the validity of such gifts. I do not.
What I do wish is that those of you who do speak in tongues would do is share with us; how God has used you and how this gift has allowed you to be a blessing to others, to edify the church, and to glorify Him? I think this sharing of testimoney would be much more valuable to the body than all this debate. I certainly know it would be a blessing to me.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Lydia
Advanced Member
Member # 530
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posted
Dear Help...
In I Corinthians 14 Paul says that the benefit of him speaking in tongues inspite of no one there who could interpret is this, he said we are "edified".
We are "edified." Is there any reason you can think of to refuse to be edified by the Spirit of God?
I need all the help and strength I can get as I walk the Christian walk and as I witness to the lost.
If tongues didn't do anything else I would desire this spiritual gift because its use makes me strong.
Would you agree?
Lydia
Posts: 60 | From: Miss Missouri country | Registered: Oct 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
I dont think any here denies the gift of tongues; nor that it is given by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I think what some of us deny is that it is something that must be present as evidence of the Spirit. Clearly this is not a gift that all receive.
I cannot speak for others, but I also am not able to find any illustration of people speaking in tongues in the Bible except those examples that clearly show that the tongue they spoke was a know tongue of another people and not some un-understood private language.
I have to wonder why. It seems to me if God is glorified somehow by my uttering things from my mouth in public that no one else present can understand, and this should be something for me to desire, then he would have shown this being done in the Word.
The use of "tongues" in the Bible shows that God was glorified when people who would have not understood...understood the words being uttered by the power of the Holy Spirit and were amazed at the power of Almighty God to cause a person to speak of God's Glory in a language that was not their own.
As far as evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit... I think the Bible teaches that it is fruit...Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
There is nothing of tongues here (above); The Holy Spirit working in us PRODUCES FRUIT in us that is seen and brings Glory to Him.
I just cant see that the Gifts of the Spirit are about us; about our feeling good; about our feeling justified or blessed or anything else; I see they are about bringing HIM Glory through His enabling of us to be a blessing to others.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Lydia
Advanced Member
Member # 530
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posted
Hi bridi and Tal,
I also am a Spirit filled believer and have discussed this topic with these good brothers and sisters. They are a tough group. Which is very good because when persecution comes they will survive gloriously.
The article on the Charismatic Movement is in error in several places but the point I'm most familiar with is the Charismatic Movement in the 60's. Try this sometime: when you are with a group of fellow believers, ask them how many were filled with the Spirit before 1967 or after.
A huge majority will be after 1967. Remember what happened that year? The Six Day War during which the Jews took Jerusalem back and triggered the Last Days of history on this planet.
One might conclude that power has been given to the Church to equip them (us) as we journey through the culmination of final Bible prophecies.
Thanks for listening.
Lydia ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 60 | From: Miss Missouri country | Registered: Oct 2002
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bridri
Community Member
Member # 817
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posted
hey Caretaker: if I understand your Point what about the christians in Acts 8:14-17.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
TAL,MAC; Do you mind if I cut in. See Acts 19:2-6 Paul asked the men "have you recieved the Holy Ghost since (after) you believed". They were already saved and on their way to heaven(see verse 4) Then they were baptized in water(see verse 5) Then,then Paul Laid his hands on them and they recieved the Holy Ghost like he originally asked them.
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These were Jews at Ephesus and they had been baptised with the baptisim of John, unto repentence. They were not believers when approached by Paul. They were baptised in the name of Jesus and received the same sign as had occured at Jerusalem on the day of pentecost, at the house of Cornelius on the occaison of the Gentile Pentecost, as a sign confirming the Gentile salvation, and then at Ephesus confirming the experience to the Jews in the outlying regions. The signs whuch were wrought at the hands of Paul convinced multitudes in the surrounding area and brought huge numbers to Christ.
Acts 19
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And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
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He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
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And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
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Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
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When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
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And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
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And all the men were about twelve.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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bridri
Community Member
Member # 817
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posted
Yes,and I bet if Paul were here today he would be asking us all-Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
Yes!
They where seal before... Blessed truth
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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bridri
Community Member
Member # 817
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posted
TAL,MAC; Do you mind if I cut in. See Acts 19:2-6 Paul asked the men "have you recieved the Holy Ghost since (after) you believed". They were already saved and on their way to heaven(see verse 4) Then they were baptized in water(see verse 5) Then,then Paul Laid his hands on them and they recieved the Holy Ghost like he originally asked them.
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
Tal let me see if I understand you. You are saying the the gift of the Holy Spirit on a person is the sign of speaking in tongues.
Is this what you mean!
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Tal
Community Member
Member # 810
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posted
Maybe now you'll understand what we are trying to explain about the Holy Spirit. Let me know what you think.
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"Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
~ Screwtape
Posts: 9 | From: United States | Registered: Dec 2002
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Tal
Community Member
Member # 810
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posted
Sorry, don't want to start an arguement but...
Read these...
- Acts 8: 18-19
- Acts 2: 1-...
- Acts 19: 1-3,6
- Acts 9: 10-12,17
***-MARK 16:17*** <- Read
- Acts 2:4
- I Corinthians 14:4
- I Corinthians 14:2
- I Corinthians 14:14 <- my Spirit prayeth
- John 14:16-17
***-Romans 8:26-27*** !!!
- Jude 20
- I Corinthians 14:15-17
***- Isaiah 28:11-12***
- Acts 10:44-46
This is good stuff from the word.
I'll stop here. If you have any questions about these verses, let me know.
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"Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
~ Screwtape
Posts: 9 | From: United States | Registered: Dec 2002
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bridri:
[QB]
The first is the tongues one recieves as evidence of the babtism in the Holy Ghost that operates in ones life at will
MAC... this is not sound in the way you are addresin it, Jesus told nico that he most be born of water and of the Spitit. And in this wonderful birth Jesus told him in;
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The wonderful author of our Salvtion the
Spitit of righteousness brings this in our lives without the need of the conformation of a tougue to conferm that we are fill with the Holy Spirit.
This verse clearly tell us how is every one that is born of the Spirit.
But yes you will see the fruit of the Spirit in a child of God.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
BRINGING OUT THE BEAUTY STEADFASTLY
Thank You
Love in Christ
MAC
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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bridri
Community Member
Member # 817
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posted
howdy mac; my point to helpforhomeschoolers was two fold #1 was my point that praying in the Holy Ghost and praying in tongues were/are one and the same.#2 was that I did not feel I could adequetly explain my position that ther were two "levels" of tongues for lack of a better word. However I will attempt it briefly have mercy on me. The first is the tongues one recieves as evidence of the babtism in the Holy Ghost that operates in ones life at will the second is one of the nine fold gifts of the spirit that operates as God wills. Do you see what I mean.
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
In my opinion this is all by the same Spirit, i dont see difrent levels or difrent manifastions on the speaking.
Then in I COR.14:14 it says when I pray in an unknown tongue my spirit prayeth
My Spirit and my soul is has the same agrenment most of the time.
i pray in my spirit
i pray with my spirit
i pray with my soul
i pray in my soul
the only diffrent i might see in this is to whom is to be..
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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bridri
Community Member
Member # 817
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posted
hello helpforhomeschoolers,in Acts 2:4 people spake in tongues as the Spirit (Holy Spirit) gave the utterence.Then in I COR.14:14 it says when I pray in an unknown tongue my spirit prayeth.KJV Do you see the connection to Jude 20.As for why God did not just say pray in tongues I don't know but I'm sure he had a good reason. As for your first inquiry being a laymen I'm not sure I would do the subject justice however may I refer you to Kenneth Hagin Ministries at www.rhema.org and his book The Holy Spirit And His Gifts it will answere that question and many more.
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 You know that being led away, you nations were led to dumb idols.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is
Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For also by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If all the body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If all hearing, where would be the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body as it has pleased Him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where would be the body?
1Co 12:20 But now indeed many are the members, yet only one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you; nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 But much rather the members of the body seeming to be weaker are necessary.
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we put more abundant honor around them. And our unpresentable members have more abundant propriety.
1Co 12:24 For our presentable members have no need, but God tempered the body together, giving more abundant honor to the member having need;
1Co 12:25 that there not be division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is glorified, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 And you are the body of Christ, and members in part.
1Co 12:28 And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Hi Bridi:
Could you show me how you determine from the scriptures that the "tongues" spoken of in 1 Corinthians and the "tongues" in Acts as being different meaning of tongues?
Also: Based on what do you assert that "praying en...ie in, by, with... the Holy Ghost as in Jude = praying in "tongues"?
Why do you think God did not just say praying in tongues here?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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bridri
Community Member
Member # 817
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posted
hello all,concerning tongues there seems to be some confusion ,so if I may - there are two "tongues" refered to in the bible #1 is the so called ministry gift of tongues described in I Cor.12:1-12 given to a person only as the spirit wills for the porpose he choses alone or in combination with the other "gifts of the Spirit" ie miracles,tongues,word of wisdom etc. The other is the tongues one recieves after the babtism in the Holy Ghost as in Acts 19:1-7 this is the tongues that is often refered to as praying in the Holy Ghost as refered to in Jude20. Hope this is helpful to folks.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
The gift of tongues is defined (ie..explained, portrayed, we are given a picture of what it looks like) in the Scriptures.
The picture is that of a language not learned by the speaker, yet understandable to peoples of a native language other than that of the speaker.
I have never been placed by God in a position to need such gift, but I do personally know someone who has been gifted and brought glory to God in a foriegn country by the grace of being able to speak of Christ in a tongue that was understood by the natives but not know to the speaker.
1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Lydia
Advanced Member
Member # 530
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posted
Dear hfhs,
You said, "I believe God still gives the gift of tongues today, but not as it is defined by most who claim to have it today. I think the Bible is very clear as to God's purpose in the gift of tongues."
I don't understand your position. You believe God still gives the gift but not as those who have it define it?
So if it's not defined correctly by those who claim to have it, then who defines it? You? Do you have it?
Thanks for clarification.
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Posts: 60 | From: Miss Missouri country | Registered: Oct 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
I like the way helpforhomeschoolers has put it,the gifts are real, but there is much abuse and misunderstanding in the Church concerning the gifts.
Take healing for example
There is healing that takes place by "faith" in GOD'S WORD, holding on to the promise I am healed by HIS STRIPS. This type of healing may or may not be instant, but when Y'SHUA (JESUS) heals it is always instant and complete. Those that claim the gift need to understand when they say that GOD has healed someone, if they have that gift it is a done deal. Y'SHUA and the Apostles as is recorded in the WORD only spoke as directed by GOD through the Holy Spirit in regard to anything.
The question has been ask by many about the man in Acts that sat daily at the Temple at the Gate Beautiful, how many time must Y'SHUA have passed him by, and the other Apostle until that one day and the Apostle said silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I unto you. The man was instantly healed, there was no waiting and the man was required to have no faith in what was spoken to him.
Sometime healing requires faith and may or may not be complete, but the gift of faith when ministered requires no faith on the part of the individual and is always instant and complete.
If I am wrong give me an example from Sccripture, please.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
I dont think the article is hogwash; perhaps you might open a thread to discuss what speciffically you think is hogwash.
I believe God still gives the gift of tongues today, but not as it is defined by most who claim to have it today. I think the Bible is very clear as to God's purpose in the gift of tongues.
I also believe in devine healing, and have personally experienced it; but none of these things change the fact that the spiritual Gifts are today abused, misused, exploited and yes even faked or imitated by the power of the enemy!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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abidinginhim
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posted
Oh, please, that article was hogwash.
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It's All About Him!
Posts: 137 | From: The Mountains of NC | Registered: Nov 2002
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Tal
Community Member
Member # 810
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posted
I can honestly say that much of what was stated in that article is not relevant to the church today.
Healing, for example, can only take place in one's life if he has faith, and is confident that he was healed 2000 years ago when Christ became sin upon the cross.
Exodus 15-26
Psalm 103-2,3
Psalm 23-1,3
Jeremiah 17-14
Malachi 4-2
Matthew 4-23
Isaiah 53-5 ***
1Peter 2-24
James 5-16
Jeremiah 30-17
Jeremiah 33-6
Just to name a few verses on the subject.
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"Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
~ Screwtape
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
Art I most say that I am in agreement with you, I am not judging no one it is not my job but we most study our selfs?
I find this article helpful to me
Quote
AT THE TURN of the century, the present-day Pentecostal Movement came into being, emphasizing "speaking in tongues" and "divine healing." Their failure to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" led to many false teachings regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit and produced confusion in the minds of the saved and unsaved religionists alike. This Pentecostal Movement arose mainly from within various Protestant churches but they were soon forced out, either because of their unusual beliefs and practices or, in some cases, because they felt unhappy in churches which had become liberal theologically and worldly in position and practice. At least two things can be said for most of these early Pentecostals-they utterly repudiated the liberalism of the ecumenical movement and would not condone mixing the world with the church.
In the 1960's a new movement took shape, sharing the basic doctrines of Pentecostalism but advocating a "stay in" rather than a "come out" policy with regard to church affiliations. This movement is commonly known as the "Charismatic Movement." It involves not only various Protestant churches but Roman Catholic churches as well. In fact, if one is able to "speak in tongues" or if he has experienced a "healing," he is accepted by the Charismatics with little or no regard to his church affiliation or doctrinal deviation. When you hear Roman Catholics talk about how their "baptism in the Holy Spirit" has given them a greater love for the Mass, you know that this cannot be attributed to the Holy Spirit, but rather to a false spirit.
In the 1980's, yet another movement appeared on the religious scene which made the Pentecostal/ charismatic false teachings even more appealing and dangerous. Why? Because this movement promoted the same, basic unscriptural doctrines held by Pentecostals and Charismatics while, in its inception, disclaiming any relationship to either of these groups, thus making it especially attractive to evangelicals and fundamentalists who did not want to wear the label of either group because of their deviant teachings and practices.
The impetus for this new movement came largely from several widely circulated books and many lectures to evangelical groups around the world by Dr. John Wimber, founder of the Vineyard Christian Fellowship, and Dr. Peter Wagner of Fuller Theological Seminary Institute of Church Growth. Both men greatly influenced each other and, as they experimented with various teachings and practices related to "healing, miracles, signs and wonders," they soon went even beyond the Pentecostal and charismatic errors. They claimed that the exorcising of so-called "territorial spirits" was essential to complete the task of world evangelization; and, that God had re-established the offices of prophet and apostle with those supposedly holding these offices receiving direct messages from God for the church, and exercising divine authority over the church. This newest movement is often referred to as "Power Evangelism," "Healing, Signs, Wonders and Miracles Evangelism," or the "Third Wave of the Holy Spirit." Ecumenical in scope and decidedly worldly in practice the three so-called "waves of the Holy Spirit" (Pentecostals, Charismatics and Power Evangelism teachers) have now blended into a powerful coalition which is rapidly spreading. This poses a great threat to the purity of the Church and the Gospel.
Others have dealt at length with the dangers of the Charismatic Movement and how scripturally unsound the movement is. Our purpose in this leaflet is to briefly point out some of the real dangers of this movement so that God's people will be informed and forewarned. We realize that there are many true believers involved in this movement. But that fact in no way decreases the dangers inherent in it. It is important to look at principles, doctrines and positions and not to look solely at the individuals who compose this movement. The Word of God must be the only basis for conclusions drawn-we must not judge by personal relationships or prejudice.
The CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT Is Dangerous Because...
1. It accepts tongues, interpretation of tongues, visions, dreams, prophecies, etc., as being messages from God to His children. This is a grave danger. Once you accept "extra-biblical messages" (those which are in addition to the Bible but not necessarily contrary to the Bible per se) it is not long before you will be accepting "anti-biblical messages" as being valid (those which directly contradict God's Word) . The Charismatic Movement has done and is doing exactly that. In reality, all extra-biblical messages are anti-biblical messages because God's Word specifically warns against adding to the Scriptures (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18, 19). The Charismatic Movement defends these extra-biblical, anti-biblical messages on the basis that, "New winds of the Holy Spirit are blowing." They say, "Who knows what the Holy Spirit may do?" Let no one forget, however, that the Word of God is a completed revelation and was given by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:19). We can be sure of one thing-the Holy Spirit will never contradict Himself. It was the Holy Spirit Who warned about adding to the Word of God. Therefore, those who add to God's Word cannot claim to be authorized or empowered by the Holy Spirit.
2. It encourages its followers to stay in apostate Protestant churches as well as Roman Catholic churches and other churches which preach and teach a false gospel by asserting that if the supposed "gifts of the Spirit" are present in false religious systems then joining them in evangelism, worship, service, etc., must be an acceptable ministry. God's Word plainly tells believers that those who preach another gospel are "accursed" (Galatians 1:6, 9) and that those who fellowship with false teachers are partakers of their evil deeds (2 John 10, 11). Satanic deception through false tongues, miracles, and the like help to bring together what God's Word declares must be kept separate. The Charismatic Movement is promoting the Ecumenical Movement and the Roman Catholic Church by overlooking serious doctrinal error, with eternal consequences, for the sake of "unity in the Spirit." This is very dangerous!
3. It sells and promotes, like the New Evangelical Movement, most of the new Bible versions and translations, many of which add to or take from the Word of God. This is also very dangerous because it destroys confidence in the written Word by causing the reader to question the divinely preserved text. The new Bible versions water down and actually change vital teachings of the Word of God as well.
4. It places unscriptural and undue emphasis on physical healing. This stumbles many precious believers who are falsely taught that it is always God's will to heal. Both the Scriptures and experience teach that God may use physical afflictions for refining, correcting and chastening (Hebrews 12:3-11; Job 23:10). God's Word teaches that He can heal anyone, anytime, but that He does not heal everyone, every time. Paul learned this truth when God explained why his thrice repeated prayer for personal healing was not granted (2 Corinthians 12:1-10); and, also, when one of Paul's faithful helpers, Trophimus was unable to accompany him because of sickness (2 Timothy 4:20). When we pray for healing for ourselves or others, we must never forget that such healing is always God's prerogative based upon what He knows is best for each of His children, not upon "demanding" or "claiming" such healing as do the Charismatics.
5. It, unlike its predecessor, Pentecostalism, fosters and encourages a spirit of worldliness in the church and in the individual believer. Instead of striving for true holiness and Godliness in speech, dress, hair, music, entertainment, etc., the Charismatic Movement prides itself in using worldly means to entertain their own and attract the lost. This is also very dangerous. Read 1 John 2:15-17.
6. It encourages women to forsake their God-given place in the home and in the Church. This results in disorderly homes and disorderly churches with women assuming places of leadership in direct violation of the Word of God. It is strange, inconsistent and sad to hear Charismatics using the fourteenth chapter of First Corinthians to justify speaking in tongues as a gift of the Spirit for our day when that very same chapter says plainly "Let your women keep silence in the churches... " (1Corinthians 14:34). To countermand God's command to women is dangerous- for women, for the home and for the Church.
7. It promotes and encourages what is called "coming under the power," a dangerous practice in which certain leaders "lay hands" on people causing them to "swoon, faint slump down, experience the power" etc., thereafter remaining unconscious or semi-conscious for several seconds or longer. The Charismatics attempt to use John 18:6 to justify this practice which is another example of how they twist the Scriptures to justify and defend their practices. There is no Scriptural precedent, example or command for this experience. Hypnotic suggestion and the desire for an extra-biblical experience opens one up to either pretended or demonically energized results which parallel those of the occult.
8. It glories in "miracles" and often uses a "miracle" as the basis for validating a person's message or practices, even though the message or the practice is unscriptural. This is dangerous since the Scriptures plainly teach that the last days will be days of great deceitfulness (2 Timothy 3:13). God warns that the coming of the Anti-Christ will usher in a time of "all power and signs and Iying wonders" (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11). We read in Revelation 13:3 that the deadly wound of the Beast was healed and that the "Second Beast" deceived men by the use of miracles, even having the power to give life to an image (Revelation 13: 18). The validation of a man's message and methods today is not "miracles"-it is conformity to the Word of God. It is dangerous to accept any other basis of judgment. The false notion that miracles must accompany the preaching of the Gospel in order for the lost to be saved today is definitely unbiblical. The one true Gospel of salvation by faith alone in Christ Jesus is still, and will ever be, God's power "unto salvation to every one who believes the simple Gospel message (Romans 1:16). Undoubtedly multitudes today are trusting in a charismatic "experience" for their salvation due to these false teachings rather than upon the sure promises of God's Word. (John 1:12; 3:36; 5:24; Romans 10:13-17).
9. It confuses and misleads believers as to Scriptural teachings concerning prayer. Using Matthew 18:19 (...if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing. . . ) as a basis for claiming healing, financial blessings or solution of any problem, they ignore what God says in 1 John 5:14,15 (...if we ask any thing according to his will....).The charismatic teaching that it is never God's will for any believer to be ill or in trouble of any kind is neither Scriptural nor is it actually true in their own ministries and personal experiences. Yet, over and over again, Charismatic leaders say to people in public meetings or to multitudes over the airwaves, "Let's agree together that every person listening or watching be healed-in Jesus' name." Are all such healed then or later? Of course not! By twisting and misapplying the Scriptures, they are deceiving millions.
10. It promotes dangerous and unscriptural teachings concerning the present power of Satan and the believer's attitude toward this "prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2). Charismatic leaders whip their audiences into a veritable frenzy as they speak of binding Satan, casting him out of individuals and into the pit, etc. They talk of "stomping on Satan" and "chasing him out of this world." Such teaching completely ignores the believer's Scriptural instructions. We are to "resist Satan" (1 Peter 5:8,9); to put on "the - whole armour of God" that we may be able to stand against his wiles and quench all his fiery darts (Ephesians 6:10-17), not forgetting the Scriptural example of Michael the archangel's attitude when dealing with the devil (Jude 9).
We firmly believe that "speaking in tongues" ceased with the completion of the Canon of Scripture (1 Corinthians 13:8). We firmly believe that it is wrong to teach believers to tarry for or seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly teaches that all believers have been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are not His at all (Romans 8:9b).
We firmly believe that the erroneous teachings of the Charismatic Movement have obscured many true and blessed teachings regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit Who convicts the world of sin (John 16:8-11), intercedes in prayer to the Father on behalf of the believer (Romans 8:26, 27); comforts, teaches and guides believers into the truth of the Word (John 14:15-26; 16:7, 13); and Who has "sealed [us] unto the day of Redemption" (Ephesians 4:30). The Holy Spirit has a blessed and important ministry in the life of every believer and we dare not neglect, belittle or pervert this wonderful ministry. The Holy Spirit uses the written Word which He gave through the apostles and prophets to guide us into all truth. The Holy Spirit will never lead us to do or say anything contrary to the Bible, God's Holy, inerrant, infallible, eternal Word (2 Timothy 3:16) .
Someone may ask, "What if the Charismatic Movement is right and you are wrong about "speaking in tongues" being for our day? Is it possible that God does want His people to have this gift now?"
The answer is clear-if "speaking in tongues" is for our day, then surely it ought to be practiced and used according to the Scriptures and not what is being practiced in the modern "tongues" movement. Not all believers could expect to have this gift (1 Corinthians 12:4-11,28-31) and "tongues speakers" should remain silent unless an interpreter was present (1 Corinthians 14:28). The one speaking had understanding of what he spoke in the unlearned, foreign language (it was never unintelligent gibberish) and unless he or an interpreter would make the message or prayer known to the rest of the church, his understanding would be "unfruitful" (unprofitable) with respect to the edification of the rest of the church (1 Corinthians 14:4-6, 12-17 cf. 12:7). Also, men were to have the leadership in the church and the women were to submit to their Spirit-enabled ministry; no woman was to speak in tongues in the churches (1 Timothy 2:11,12; 1 Corinthians 14:34). Charismatics scorn these truths.
If the Charismatic Movement were of the Holy Spirit of God, it would be exercising spiritual discernment and calling for separation from false prophets, apostate churches and unscriptural practices. It would also be exposing the false gospels and other heresies taught by the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, not joining with them in evangelism, prayer and worship.
For all of these reasons and many others like them, we sound this word of warning:
THE CHARlSMATIC MOVEMENT IS DANGEROUS-WATCH OUT FOR IT!
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Tal
Community Member
Member # 810
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posted
I am filled with the Holy Spirit and I cannot imagine living without. Speaking in tounges is dominant over the English language when I pray and worship. It may not be the same with other people, but speaking in tounges is vital within my relationship with Christ.
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"Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
~ Screwtape
Posts: 9 | From: United States | Registered: Dec 2002
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sodzei
Community Member
Member # 778
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posted
That's good.
I didn't know exactly what to expect because I haven't been on this board for long.
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"I dare you to move"
-Switchfoot
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abidinginhim
Advanced Member
Member # 620
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posted
Brother Art and I disagree on this issue big time but nonetheless, I speak and pray in tongues in the appropriate situations. Before I spoke in tongues I was saved and loved Jesus. I still am saved and love Jesus but now I speak and pray in tongues! It is not a salvation issue at all!
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It's All About Him!
Posts: 137 | From: The Mountains of NC | Registered: Nov 2002
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art
unregistered
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posted
The gift of tongues was a miraculous event at Pentecost and people were converted when they "heard them speak in our tongues the the wonderful works of God...." "in our own tongue ,wherein we were born."
What we have today is different from this event at pentecost and for the most part is just made up gibberish from people caught up in an emotional frenzy.
God bore "them" witness with signs and wonders and divers miracles (Heb 2:3) but now we have a fully completed bible and have no need to walk by signs and wonders.
"The just shall live by faith".
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Caretaker
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posted
1 Thess. 5:
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Rejoice evermore.
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Pray without ceasing.
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In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
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Quench not the Spirit.
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Despise not prophesyings.
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Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Abstain from all appearance of evil.
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And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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sodzei
Community Member
Member # 778
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posted
I have seen this issue discussed on this board and was wondering what you thought about it.
What is the status of a person that claims to be a Christian but does not speak in tongues?
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"I dare you to move"
-Switchfoot
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