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Topic: Beware, Pax Americana! Could America be revived Roman Empire?
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Trafield
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posted
I know this is a shocker...but I disagree. ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif)
And while you are still on the earth and you see the construction of the third temple begin, try not to look so surprised! ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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Kindgo
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quote:
The tribulation does not begin until the middle of Daniel's final "week" according to Jesus in Matthew 24:15-22.
This passage specifies events early in the period following the abomination of desolation spoken of by Christ in His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15).
The Great Tribulation is a period that comprises the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:24-27), a period of intense and unparalleled suffering on earth because of the consequences of God’s wrath (cf. Matt. 24:21).
The first six seals speak of God’s wrathful dealings during the first half of that week , but with the arrival of the last half of the week, matters will become even worse for earth’s inhabitants because of their rebellion against God.
A word of caution is in order here because some have mistakenly taken the seventh seal and the first four trumpets as the beginning of the wrath of God.
By doing that, they understand incorrectly the timing of the rapture by placing Christ’s coming for the church either at a point when the wrath begins during the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week or at a time when the wrath comes at the end of that week.
Those positions are impossible because the sixth seal has already informed us that the outpouring of God’s wrath is already in progress when that seal judgment begins.
In describing the sixth seal, Revelation 6:17 indicates the cries of earth’s victims: "The great day of their wrath has [already] come."
That points back to the first seal as the beginning of God’s wrath.
The seventh seal and the first four trumpets mark the beginning of the Great Tribulation, but not of the outpouring of God’s wrath. The latter will begin with the breaking of the first seal.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Trafield
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To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed.
And yet the scripture shows that they felt they missed the rapture:
2 Thessalonians 2:1
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
This is defining the Day of Christ. And how are believers gathered to Christ before the second coming..the rapture, of course.
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I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.
Perhaps you should try to remember that we are not saved by our belief in the rapture's timing. As you well know, I used to be pretrib and use to buy into the pretrib propaganda until I found it was the pretrib position that did not line up scripturally. And thank God I was able to put my faith in the Word and not the theology. But you should not be so irked because at least the majority of Christians share your belief, which I know will make you feel better.
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Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
This is no contradiciton. The tribulation does not begin until the middle of Daniel's final "week" according to Jesus in Matthew 24:15-22. Regardless, beleivers in Jesus will not suffer wrath, because whether they are alive or dead physically, their souls are eternally saved.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
The scripture stating that God has not appointed us to wrath does not refer to tribulation on earth; it refers to eternal damnation in Hell. It is simply stating that no matter what happens to us Christians in our earthly bodies, our eternal salvation is certain through our faith in Jesus Christ. Did not our Lord's own apostles die as martyrs? It is simply wrong to suggest that today's believers could not go through persecution in the last days. In fact, there are martyred saints even today that are dying for their faith in Jesus Christ.
I believe the following verses show that true believers will be spared the temptation of the false miracles of the antichrist and of being tempted to take his mark. However, I believe that many will suffer persecution for their refusal to take the mark before the rapture occurs:
Revelation 3:10
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience , I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 14:6-7
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come : and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Revelation 14:9-13
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Matthew 16:24-25
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
2 Peter 3:9-10
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Daniel 11:31-35
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Even so, Come Lord Jesus! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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Kindgo
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Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6
Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.
To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.
I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.
Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Trafield
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So, for nearly 2000 years everyone who thought the tribulation might be imminent were biblically ignorant?
Yes.
Daniel was given a prophecy concerning the increase of knowledge as the last days approached in Daniel 12:4.
http://pub47.ezboard.com/fendtimesignsfrm9.showMessage?topicID=1.topic
What about the doctrine of imminency? Though the doctrine of imminency of Christ's return is often taught, which states that he could come for his church at any time, that he could have come for his church a thousand and more years ago, and that there is no other prophecy required to be fulfilled before his return, I can find no scriptural support for this view. However, I do find scriptural support for just the opposite. It seems clear to me that the following verse is stating that the rapture could not occur until the man of sin (the antichrist) is revealed. Clearly, the following verse is stating that something must happen before the rapture could occur. So how can there be a doctine of imminenecy when the apostles taught that something had to happen before the rapture could occur?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-6
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Regarding Israel, prophetic scripture concerning the nation of Israel in the last days (as Kindgo posted) makes it clear that the promises to Israel still apply. In fact, Daniel's final "week" of years (Daniel 9:24-27) concerns the nation of Israel, and specifically the Jews and Jerusalem:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
25 “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
Daniel had received an earlier vision concerning this same time in Daniel 8:1-14, and was told in Daniel 8:17-19 that "this concerns the time of the end."
Clearly God is NOT finished with Israel, and we would be wise to continue to support God's Promised Land, and his everlasting covenants.
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Sentinel
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
From a secular standpoint it would probably be a mystery why Israel is always in the news. It is a tiny nation that is about the same size as the State of New Jersey and it has no major natural resources.
Obviously any country fighting a virtual civil war is going to be in the news some. But, from a secular perspective, Israel's frequency in the news is explained by people like you who are keenly interested in the events in Israel. There are a lot of people with that keen interest. Right now, one of those people is the president.
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In 1948, Israel was reborn as a nation. The rebirth of the Jewish state should have put aside any doubts that God had abandoned the apple of His eye.
So, if the Kurds ever get a homeland carved out of Iraq (and maybe Iran), it will prove that Kurds are the aapple of His eye? The Poles had their country "reborn" this past century (from part of Germany and others). As I noted in another thread, I don't see creation of the state of Israel as meeting the biblical requirements.
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He said, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel.
Jews are of Judea. The whole house of Israel contains another 11 tribes.
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What makes Israel important to end time prophecy
So, for nearly 2000 years everyone who thought the tribulation might be imminent were biblically ignorant?
Scripture reports that the restored Israel will not have Judea divided from the rest (not merely a Jewish state). And, the new Israel will have Christ for their king. Go back to the valley of dry bones.
"I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God." Ezekiel 37:22,23
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Kindgo
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From a secular standpoint it would probably be a mystery why Israel is always in the news. It is a tiny nation that is about the same size as the State of New Jersey and it has no major natural resources.
Israel is important, however, God made promises to Israel that will be fulfilled. One of the Bible's greatest predictions about Israel has already come to pass. In 1948, Israel was reborn as a nation. The rebirth of the Jewish state should have put aside any doubts that God had abandoned the apple of His eye.
He said, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, My people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it,' declares the Lord" (Eze. 37:11-14).
"Fear not, for I am with you. I will bring your seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..." (Is. 43:5-6).
"In that day, the Lord will reach out His hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of His people, who will be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth" (Isaiah 11:11-12).
What makes Israel important to end time prophecy are the many scriptures which indicate that Israel will be the main setting for key tribulation events.
"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it" (Zech 12:3).
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev 11:7-8).
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Mat 24: 15-16).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sentinel
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
When the Greeks overran Palestine and desecrated the altar in the Jewish temple, they were soon conquered by Rome. When Rome killed Paul and many others, and destroyed Jerusalem under Titus, Rome soon fell. Spain was reduced to a fifth-rate nation after the Inquisition against the Jews; Poland fell after the pogroms; Hitler's Germany went down after its orgies of anti-Semitism; Britain lost her empire when she broke her faith with Israel.
Rome existed for many centuries after destroying Jeruslalem. And, that destruction was in accord with God's will, according to Jesus, "days of vengeance." Any country that starts a war against enemies with a combined greater power is going to be crushed (ala Germany WWII), regardless of treatment of Jews. And, history is littered with crush countries (Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, etc.) that did nothing bad to Jews.
America's support of Israel has never been stronger, yet America's rate of decay has never been greater.
It's one thing to try to find correlation. Doing such, I could say that God is turning our nation over to the homosexuals (e.g. the recent court ruling on sodomy) because of our support of Israel. But, arguing from correlation is weak.
Arguing from cause-and-effect is much stronger. Our support of Isreal has come at great cost in terms of billions of dollars, American lives, global credibility, internal corruption, and wasted Christian effort (I would prefer those Christian who are paying to rebuild Jewish settlements to spend their effort here to save us from the fate of Sodom).
That doesn't mean by itself that we shouldn't support Israel. But, I don't believe for a second that we've been blessed for supporting that state of Israel.
America became the greatest country on Earth before Israel was even a concern.
American can be a good world citizen by helping the nation of Israel survive (Israel would have been destroyed if not for being blessed by America). But, there is nothing Christian in the blind support America gives Israel -- even if I totally agreed with your theology on Israel.
However, the state of Israel fails on several counts to be the restored Israel. Israel a label slapped onto a human attempt to restore Judea.
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Sentinel
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
The Judaizers were saying to the Galatians that if they would submit to the law and become circumcised, they could enjoy the status of being Abraham's seed - but Paul points out that this is already theirs through faith in Jesus.
Yes, that's what I said. Christians have the status of being Abraham's seed. That means God will bless those who bless Christians.
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Paul tells us that no one is truly Israel unless he is governed by God.
That's how I understand it. The State of Israel is not governed by God. Christians are. Jews will not be governed by God until they accept Christ.
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Kindgo
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Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
God's promise to Abram
verses(1-3) God's previous covenant with Abram....
As noticed before, this promise had been made to Abram before he left Ur of the Chaldeans; now that his father was dead and he was called to a more complete obedience, God states the promise again.
Abram's partial obedience did not take God's promise away; instead, it meant that it was on hold until he was ready to do what the Lord said.
Abram will certainly become a giant of faith, even being the father of the believing (Galatians 3:7); yet he does not start there. We will see Abram as an example of one who grows in faith and obedience.
After stating that He wants Abram to leave his country and his relatives, God promises Abram a land; specifically the land of greater Israel.
These are God's promises; notice how often God says I will in these verses. Chapter 11 is all about the plans of man; chapter 12 is all about God's plans.
God promises to make of Abram a nation; he will have enough children and grandchildren and further descendants to populate a nation
God promises to bless Abram, and to make your name great; there is probably no more honored name than the name of Abram, who is honored by Jews, Muslims, and Christians.
God also promises that He would bless those who bless you and to curse him who curses you; this remains true today, and a root reason for the decline and death of many empires.
When the Greeks overran Palestine and desecrated the altar in the Jewish temple, they were soon conquered by Rome. When Rome killed Paul and many others, and destroyed Jerusalem under Titus, Rome soon fell. Spain was reduced to a fifth-rate nation after the Inquisition against the Jews; Poland fell after the pogroms; Hitler's Germany went down after its orgies of anti-Semitism; Britain lost her empire when she broke her faith with Israel.
This is also one reason why the United States has been so blessed; we were one the of the first modern nations to grant full citizenship and protection to Jewish people.
This promise has also affected the church; the times when the church has taken upon itself the persecution of the Jewish people have been dark times for the church, not only for the Jews.
Not only would Abram be blessed, but God would also make him a blessing - even to the point that all the families of the earth would be blessed in Abram.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. -- Galatians 3:8-9
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation (Revelation 5:9) The work of Jesus will touch every people on the earth.
Luther said that the promise in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed should be written "in golden letters and should be extoled in the languages of all people," for "who else . . . has dispensed this blessing among all nations except the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ?"
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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Galatians 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Galatians 3:26-29 tells us about our new place in Jesus.
We are now all sons of God in Jesus; we can enjoy that relationship with God as a loving, caring Father.
We are immersed in Jesus; we have put on Jesus as our chief identity; to put on Christ is to be clothed with Him as your identity.
We are equal in Jesus; if He is our chief identity, that is more important than any prior identity we possessed.
The Jews had a prayer that each man would pray every morning, thanking God that he was not a Gentile, a slave, or a woman. Paul takes each of these categories and shows them to be equal in Jesus.
We are spiritual descendants of Abraham and heirs of God, but all according to promise, not according to law or works.
The Judaizers were saying to the Galatians that if they would submit to the law and become circumcised, they could enjoy the status of being Abraham's seed - but Paul points out that this is already theirs through faith in Jesus.
Romans 9:6-8
"For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Has God failed with His plan regarding Israel?
No; God has not failed His children of promise!
If it were true that the word of God has taken no effect, then we could say that man was above God, and could rule over and above God's purpose, frustrating it by his lack of cooperation.
One meaning of the name Israel is "governed by God"; Paul is saying that not all "Israel" is really "governed by God"
Paul tells us that no one is truly Israel unless he is governed by God. We have a parallel situation with the word 'Christian.' Not everyone who is called a Christian is truly a follower of Christ.
It may seem that Israel has frustrated God's plan, making God a failure; but in reality, God is still reaching His children of the promise, which may or may not be equivalent to physical Israel.
Paul demonstrates this by pointing out that merely being the descendant of Abraham saves no one; it is not being children of the flesh that avails before God, but only being children of the promise.
For example, Ishmael was just as much a son of Abraham as Isaac was; but one was a son according to the flesh, and one was a son according to the promise (At this time I will come and Sarah will have a son) - one was the heir of God's covenant of salvation, and one was not.
Jhn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Jhn 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jhn 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
Jhn 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Jhn 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
This does NOT say that God is done with Israel!
The Church and Israel are two different things, with two different plans.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Hello, Kindgo.
Galatians 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Romans 9:6b-8 "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Read John 8:31-47. I won't quote that here.
Why does Gen 12:3 apply to the state of Israel?
IHS, Philip.
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Kindgo
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Sentinel, This is a Israel friendly site
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
God promises that He would bless those who bless you (Israel) and to curse him who curses you(Israel); this remains true today, and a root reason for the decline and death of many empires.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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quote:
Originally posted by leeprice:
Uh, America shoudn't mess with Israel. We may wind up with ten plagues or something.... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I don't know about ten plagues for messing with Israel. But, supporting Israel has been as bad as receiving ten plagues.
The US bleeds billions/year of dollars to aid in Israel and we bleed billions more to Israel's neighbors, such as Egypt, so that they'll be nice to Israel.
There's also those suicide attacks against America, such as 9-11 which killed 3000 Americans, as a result of the US supporting Israel.
Thousands of dead and billions spent are only the small curses for supporting Isreal. I would mention the big ones but I don't want to cause too much trouble.
. . . No one comes to the Father except through Jesus.
Posts: 28 | Registered: Jun 2003
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leeprice
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Uh, America shoudn't mess with Israel. We may wind up with ten plagues or something....
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7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7
Posts: 55 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2003
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Trafield
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New American Century
Statement of Principles
June 3, 1997
http://newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.
We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.
As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?
We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.
We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.
Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.
Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:
• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;
• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;
• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;
• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.
Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.
Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle
Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz
Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz
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Trafield
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posted
Beware, Pax Americana ahead
By Michael Freund
Mar. 4, 2003
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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1046754153689
In between statements last week putting Iraq on notice that they are about to get walloped, US President George W. Bush chose to put Israel on notice, too. In what were perhaps his most clear-cut, and frightening, remarks to date, the leader of the free world made plain last Wednesday that once Saddam is gone, his top priority will be to establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
Speaking at the annual dinner of the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, Bush insisted that "Success in Iraq could also begin a new stage for Middle-Eastern peace and set in motion progress toward a truly democratic Palestinian state."
The president went on to describe his objective as being "two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. It is the commitment of our government and my personal commitment to implement the road map and to reach that goal."
Now, whatever one may think of Bush, there is no questioning the fact that he is a man of his word. Unlike many politicians, when he says something, he usually means it.
And that is what makes this latest speech so downright terrifying. For Bush went beyond the usual diplomatic jargon, using the phrase "personal commitment" to indicate that he is absolutely serious about bringing about the creation of Palestine.
In so doing, he transformed the issue from the lowly realm of the political to the highly charged one of the personal. That spells trouble, big trouble, for Israel.
It means that George Bush has now positioned himself, and his presidency, on a clear trajectory. He aims to knock Saddam out of the box in the next few weeks, after which his goal will be to fulfill Yasser Arafat's lifelong dream of establishing an independent Palestine.
Of course, Bush did stress that the new Palestinian state should be "truly democratic," but given its track record of violence and corruption over the past decade, chances are that the Palestinian entity-in-the-making will be little more than just another old-style dictatorship.
This cannot be allowed to happen. But unless Israel acts now, it most certainly will.
And here's why: The outcome of America's eminently justifiable invasion of Baghdad will be quick and decisive. Saddam will fall fast and he will fall hard, for the simple reason that no sane person in Iraq will be willing to fight to the death for a tyrant who has oppressed him and his family for the past three decades.
The victory in Iraq will likely usher in a period of unprecedented American dominance in world affairs, akin only to the Pax Romana inaugurated by Augustus Caesar, Rome's first emperor, in the year 27 BCE.
For nearly two centuries, Rome was the unrivalled global superpower, throwing around its weight at will, expanding its empire and enjoying a period of peace and prosperity.
America looks set to do the same once Saddam and his evil regime are removed from power.
The Arabs will be livid with rage, the Europeans will again feel slighted, and Russia will no doubt be irritated. The easiest way for Bush to patch up America's relations with the world, and bring down the price of oil, will be to impose a peace settlement on Israel and the Palestinians, bringing about an end to the century-old Middle East conflict.
And that is precisely what he aims to do: Pax Americana, or keeping the empire quiet.
Sounds unrealistic? Just remember those two little words Bush used last week: "personal commitment." They say it all.
It is therefore essential that Israel act now to rally its supporters across the United States and prevent such a scenario from unfolding.
REELECTED by an unprecedented margin, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has a clear mandate from the Israeli public, the overwhelming majority of whom do not subscribe to the Bush plan. A February 26 poll found that Israelis oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state by a whopping 61% to 31%.
Sharon is known to have close personal relations with Bush, and it is safe to assume that the president has already informed the prime minister about what he plans to do next. But even if he hasn't, that too was made clear in Bush's speech last Wednesday.
"The new government of Israel," said the president, "will be expected to support the creation of a viable Palestinian state."
That sounds more like marching orders than advice from a friendly ally. Sharon should therefore start by reaching out to Israelis, warning them of the dangers that lie ahead. He must unite the public behind him, filling us in on as much as he can without compromising his relationship with President Bush.
He needs to explain to the country that removal of the military threat from Iraq will pave the way for an unparalleled diplomatic assault on Israel, led by none other than the US State Department. It will seek to bring about the fulfillment of the failed Oslo Accords through the establishment of Palestine.
Simultaneously, Sharon should reach out to American Jewry, as well as to the masses of American Christians who are among the Jewish state's most fervent supporters. Groups such as Esther Levens National Unity Coalition for Israel, and Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein's Stand For Israel have the ability to bring together millions of American Christians on Israel's behalf.
These people form the backbone of Bush's support in the Republican party, and they must be mobilized at once to work against the creation of an independent Palestinian state.
Sharon should therefore address American Christian supporters of Israel directly, tapping into their political savvy and biblical commitment to help save the Jewish state from the fate that awaits it after the war in Iraq is complete.
Establishing a Palestinian state, it must be made clear, will endanger Israel and undermine American interests in the region. It will reward decades of Arab intransigence as well as Palestinian terror, and weaken the only democracy in the Middle East.
Now is the time for Israel to undertake such a campaign, before the impending post-war diplomatic pressure becomes too heavy to resist.
It may just be a matter of weeks or months before the Pax Americana arrives, seeking to force Israel to make dangerous concessions.
If Israel fails to act now, it may just wake up one morning to find an independent "Palestine" at its doorstep. And that is a risk we simply cannot afford to take.
The writer served as Deputy Director of Communications & Policy Planning in the Prime Minister's Office from 1996 to 1999.
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