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Author
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Topic: Works Required for Salvation in Other Dispensations?
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Jerry Shugart
Advanced Member
Member # 9584
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Then you replied.
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
NOT TO THE PEOPLE YOU SAY HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS TO.
I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews who were under the law. And that is exactly the people to which He was speaking:
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them...Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:18-19,24).
quote:
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
Yes, that is my site.
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
All you are doing is showing that Stam contradicts himself on this subject.
Let us examine Stam's own teaching in regard to the salvation of David, a man who lived under the Law, to see if "works" were required for salvation:
"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.17).
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
Here is" Things that Differ" in total , unedited.
http://www.dovhost.com/grace-books/StamI13.pdf
Now lets be Bereans and see if what you say is so.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
[QUOTE]Let us look at what I said here:
If works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
You replied:
quote:
How could the Lord Jesus tell those people this, as you say, when He had not been born of a virgin yet?
Then you replied.
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
Not disputing that fact.
I again show you your error.
HE DID NOT SPEAK THOSE WORDS TO THE PEOPLE YOU SAY HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS TO. THEY LIVED AND DIED WAY BEFORE CHRIST WAS BREATHING AIR ON THIS EARTH AFTER BEING BORN OF A VIRGIN.
Please stop your sillyness.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
That's right!
The regulations God gave his people begin with the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 and continue on-and-off through Numbers—and were repeated to the Israelites before they entered the Promised Land (...hence Deuteronomy, literally the "second law").
But even this law was given in the context of an already-established covenantal relationship. God begins, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt..." (Ex 20:2)—and THEN makes his demands. God didn't claim to belong to any other people on earth, but he had given himself to the family of Abraham, to be their God. The whole Mosaic code needs to be understood in this relational context of covenant grace. Though there were blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience (what we call fatherly discipline), the commandments were not a means of earning salvation. It's interesting to compare Hebrews 12 and its discussion of God's loving discipline, which follows his discussion of Old Testament saints who lived by faith (chapter 11).
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
No,no. Works were never required for salvation, never. Right from the first Adam salvation has been by grace through faith. Adam tried to produce his own covering of fig-leaves, but that didn't cut with God. It needed to be the covering of the sacrificial lamb produced by God Himself. In the OT works were produced by the faith of the believer, but works made no contribution to his/her salvation.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Obedience led to blessings and disobedience led to curses.
Deuteronomy 28:1 - 2 (NASB)
1“Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2“All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD your God:
Deuteronomy 28:15 (NASB)
15“But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you.
But outward obedience is not enough.
Isaiah 29:13 - 14 (NASB)
13Then the Lord said, “Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, 14 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed.”
Our Lord Jesus Christ taught us that outward obedience is not enough.
Matthew 23:23 (NASB)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
We must have the Holy Spirit within us.
Galatians 5:22 - 23 (NASB)
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Jerry Shugart
Advanced Member
Member # 9584
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
All you are doing is showing that Stam contradicts himself on this subject.
Let us examine Stam's own teaching in regard to the salvation of David, a man who lived under the Law, to see if "works" were required for salvation:
"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.17).
Stam then turns around and says the following:
"David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6)" (Stam, Things That Differ, p.16).
If David was justified "without" works then it is certain that works were not "required" for his salvation. So we can see that Stam contradicts himself. At one place he says that "works" were "required" for David's salvation then he says that David was justified "without works".
Stam also wrote that "In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.87).
Let us look at what I said here:
If works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
You replied:
quote:
How could the Lord Jesus tell those people this, as you say, when He had not been born of a virgin yet?
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
God is not the author of confusion.
That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
How could the Lord Jesus tell those people this, as you say, when He had not been born of a virgin yet?
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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posted
Also...you say about
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him. and sought to kill him.
That..
Just because the Lord might kill someone who is saved does not mean that that person will lose his salvation. We can see that truth in regard to some in the Church who were partaking of the Lord's supper in a manner described as "unworthily":
The verse is talking about circumcision not the Lords supper son.
The Lords supper is done in remembrance.
Circumcision was required by the Law of God.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
In Eph. 1:13 the Apostle Paul declares that men are saved and sealed by hearing and believing "the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation." This declaration is substantiated by many other passages of Scripture. Our Lord said: "He that heareth... and believeth... hath everlasting life" (John 5:24). This at a time when sacrifices and baptism were still required for the remission of sins. Even then men had to hear and believe to be saved, for "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17).
Now, however, salvation is received by hearing and believing alone. Works for salvation are not merely unnecessary; they are forbidden. Today salvation is "to him that worketh not, but believeth" (Rom. 4:5). "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).
God has changed His dealings with men from time to time down through the ages, teaching one lesson at a time. This is why it is so important to note the dispensational distinctions in Scripture, "rightly dividing the Word of truth."
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation: "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21) and men are saved solely by faith in Christ, "being justified freely by [God's] grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). We are saved, then, as we hear and believe what Paul calls, "the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Eph. 1:13), and we are established in the faith as we obey II Tim. 2:15: "rightly dividing the Word of truth."
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That is all.....
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Jerry Shugart
Advanced Member
Member # 9584
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodbought:
I do not find in scripture where anyone in any dispensation as saved apart from by grace through faith.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all
Excellent passage. It is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise might be sure to those who are of the law.
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jerry Shugart
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Member # 9584
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Nice try.
Please explain this verse to the baseball fans with your theory.
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him. and sought to kill him.
Just because the Lord might kill someone who is saved does not mean that that person will lose his salvation. We can see that truth in regard to some in the Church who were partaking of the Lord's supper in a manner described as "unworthily":
"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:27-32).
quote:
and try to reconcile it to this verse.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
There were some who falsely believed that circumcision was a work that was required for salvation. But even Stam recognized that that rite saved no one, saying "Circumcision did not justify Abraham. It was merely a 'sign,' a token; 'a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised' " (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, 91.
Stam also recognized that those who lived under the law were not justified by "works," writing that "David lived under the law. How was he justified? 'David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works' (Rom. 4:6)" [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, p.16).
If David was justified "without" works then it is certain that works were not "required" for his salvation. Stam also wrote that "In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works" [emphasis added] (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.87).
The Apostle Peter certainly undertsood that his salvation was by grace, saying the following:
"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (Acts 15:11; NASB).
quote:
God is not the author of confusion.
That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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WildB
Moderator
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.
If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith." That is because if "works" were essential then it is not of grace:
Nice try.
Please explain this verse to the baseball fans with your theory.
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him. and sought to kill him.
and try to reconcile it to this verse.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It was Graceful of the Lord to met Moses by the way in the inn and let his wife do a work and cut off the foreskin of her son.
Zipporah had the Faith in Gods word and kept the law here.
To which someones soul was saved that day.
Please read Hebrews 11 again.
http://www.justbible.com/bychapter.aspx?bookchap=B58C011.htm
God is not the author of confusion.
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That is all.....
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Bloodbought
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posted
Hi Jerry and welcome,
I do not find in scripture where anyone in any dispensation as saved apart from by grace through faith.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
The object of faith has always been Christ crucified. OT believers looked forward to the cross and NT believers look back to the cross.
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Jerry Shugart
Advanced Member
Member # 9584
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posted
Cornelius Stam was the founder of the Berean Bible Society and in his book Things that Differ we can find Pastor Stam's basic teaching in regard to his ideas of how a sinner obtained salvation in other dispensations. He writes:
"We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved" [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], 15).
In other words, according to him the only thing that is "essential" in order to be saved is faith. But then he says:
"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.21).
The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).
Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.
If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith." That is because if "works" were essential then it is not of grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
Stam himself recognized this principle, writing that "Grace is not grace if mingled with works. The two principles are mutually exclusive (Rom. 4:4,5)" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, [Berean Literature Foundation, Second Printing, 1984], 87).
There is no doubt that the Jews of the past dispensation who believed were saved by grace, and if it is of grace then it cannot be of works (Ro.11:5-6). Peter understood that he was saved by grace, the same way that the Gentiles are saved. He said:
"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (Acts 15:11; NASB).
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