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Author
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Topic: Works Required for Salvation in Other Dispensations?
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
What human being could stand in the presence of God sooner than the only perfect man, Jesus the Christ? We were redeemd by His blood, and there was no Savior's blood until the crucifixion.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the
riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. Ephesians 1:7-8
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22
Therefore:
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell? Proverbs 30:4
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. John 3:13
For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.’ Acts 2:34-35
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Bloodbought
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posted
What Does it mean, The Lamb slain
from the foundation of the world?
-by Tony Warren
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
In Revelation chapter thirteen, verse eight, Jesus is referred to as, 'The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.' Since Christ went to the cross at an appointed and specific place in time (which was about 2000 years ago), some Christians are unsure just what this phrase actually means. This is understandable, as the language there is somewhat difficult.
When the verse is carefully studied and all things are considered, it becomes clear that God is speaking about the 'eternal election of Grace,' which spans time. Note that God is defining those unsaved who do not have their names written in the Lamb's book of life. This 'book of Life' signifies God's record of those who will be regenerated or raised up unto new life in Christ Jesus. In Him are these Saints under the immutable purpose of God for his Elect.
Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain, but also that the efficacy, or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today. In other words, the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time. God had already chosen who He would Save before creation, and had thus already ordained the Saviour to shed His blood for them, to make this possible. their Salvation wasn't something which could be thwarted, it was something which was as good as 'done' from the time that God ordained it.
1st Peter 1:18-20
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
We are not redeemed by corruptible things, but by the blood of Christ who was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Because God had already proposed to shed Christ's blood for our redemption, and in His eyes, that makes it as good as an accomplished act, from that time forward.
Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
From the foundation of the world He had predetermined that we would be accepted in the beloved, through the shed blood of Christ. And though so many theologians in our day teach the falsehoods of a 'free will' doctrine cannot discern this, it always get's back to the eternal Election of grace. The bottom line of God seeing Christ slain from before the foundation of the world. As illustrated in Timothy:
2nd Timothy 1:9
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
We might ask, how is something given us before the would began, when we were born this century? And the answer is, because before the world began, God looked through time, that He knew our existence. And He predetermined and proposed our doing and our conforming to Christ. He justified us, and then He saw it all done. He is not a man that He had to wait until time passed to know it, He is Omniscient God. And so in God's eyes, it was as good as accomplished. Nothing in time could ever change it! The same truths as put forth in passages like Romans:
Romans 8:29-30
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Those whom He looked through time and foreknew, He also predestinated 'to be' conformed to the image of Christ, and He called them, and justified them, and He also Glorified them. So there is no possibility of failure. It is difficult for us to comprehend these things because we see through a glass, darkly, and thus do not understand fully time, when God is from everlasting to everlasting, timeless.
And more than just a declaration of the eternal Election of Grace, it is truly a word of 'assurance' to the Saints of the security of the Child of God. For if Jesus' blood had not been proposed and shed from the foundation of the world for us, then we would have reason to worry, because it wouldn't be an absolute. But God having predestinated us before, and saw it as accomplished, our Salvation is totally secure. All Glory goes to God that He has in Christ's blood, from the foundation of the world, already provided our redemption, gave our strength, looked after our welfare, and filled every need and provision. Therefore, it is not possible that God's Elect will not persevere.
Matthew 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
If it were possible! But, Glory, Praise and Thanks be unto God, it is not possible for God's Elect to be deceived. And the reason is because God, before the foundation of the world, saw as good as accomplished, a Lamb slain for their redemption. He slew Christ for us before the Foundation of the world, thus we are confident that we a sealed (secured) that He will conform us to the Image of Christ.
Philippians 1:6
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"
Hebrews 12:2
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
We have confidence God's work in us is accomplished because He is not an idle bystander, but the author or leader, and the finisher of our faith. There is no possibility that He will come up short, or that He died in vain paying for the sins of anyone. Every person for whom Christ died, has no sin, and will persevere. Not one is lost!
In the Old Testament 'types' portraying our Savior's sacrifice, the blood of animals took away no one's sins (Hebrews 10:4), but were merely to bear testimony to Christ, the true Lamb that really cleansed them from sin. Because God regarded Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, He looked upon the Old Testament elect as redeemed, forgiven, justified! As Righteous Job cried:
Job 19:25
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:"
His Redeemer lived because the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice was upon Job even then. Before Christ went to the cross, the Old Testament Saints were justified by Christ's righteousness just as we are today. This is a very important truth for us to understand, because this can only be because the efficacy of the cross reaches all the way back to Job or Abel, just as it reaches all the way forward to us today. If it din not cover them who didn't live in Christ's day, how could it cover us who don't live in Christ's day? we are both hundreds of years away from the cross, but in truth, it's as if the sacrifice was made for us today.
Hebrews 10:10-12
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
He was offered once, for all. Old Testament Saints as well as new. For them, as well as for us. When God says He was slain before, He is saying that the effect of His sacrifice, is just the same as if He were sacrificed in any time period in which man lived. When we become Saved today, it means Christ was sacrificed for our sins. 2000 years ago, He had our sins in His flesh. And when He went to the cross with them, He purged them from us by His death and resurrection. From Abel, to those who live today, we are under this Covenant of Grace which transcends time, and reaches back to the Old Testament times.
Galatians 3:17
"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."
The Covenant of grace for the Elect existed before the law. Moreover, the law that was given later, cannot disannul it, because it's written in the blood of Christ from before creation. i.e., Salvation has always been by faith in the blood of Christ. It was never of keeping the law, which not one of us could possibly do. It was always a Covenant of Grace, which the law couldn't disannul.
Christ's sacrifice was not limited by time, and this truth is very important to the faithful. Time (thus the timekeepers, the Sun, Moon, and stars) was created for man, not for God. He is infinite! So though time must unfold for man, God, being omniscient and omnipresent, sees these things as completed. He is outside of time! Those who are under the blood of Christ, He predestinated it, willed it, and saw it accomplished from the foundation of the world. But though God saw it done, the redemption still had to occur in the fullness of time 'for the Elect' who live in time. This is why we have the language of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. It is portraying the timelessness of Christ's Sacrifice, to make possible 'The eternal election of Grace.'
Amen!
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/slainfounda.html
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Carol Swenson
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Exactly. The OT saints went to Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) when they died, not to Heaven. Their sins were covered, but not washed away. They could not go to Heaven until Christ died for them and redeemed them when He descended into Hades.
In the time of Christ's earthly ministry, the Pharisees had turned the Law into something God never intended it to be. Works and the Law never saved anyone. They were required, but sacrifices had to be made constantly to seek God's forgiveness because no one could obey perfectly. Salvation has always been by the grace of God.
How many times did the nation turn away from God and turn to idolatry, then had to beg God's forgiveness? They were not saved by their goodness, but by HIS goodness.
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Bloodbought
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Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. :4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
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Carol Swenson
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Why did God require animal sacrifices in the Old Testament?
God required animal sacrifices to provide a temporary covering of sins and to foreshadow the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Leviticus 4:35, 5:10). Animal sacrifice is an important theme found throughout Scripture because “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22). When Adam and Eve sinned, animals were killed by God to provide clothing for them (Genesis 3:21). Cain and Abel brought sacrifices to the Lord. Cain's was unacceptable because he brought fruit, while Abel's was acceptable because it was the “firstborn of his flock” (Genesis 4:4-5). After the flood receded, Noah sacrificed animals to God (Genesis 8:20-21).
God commanded the nation of Israel to perform numerous sacrifices according to certain procedures prescribed by God. First, the animal had to be spotless. Second, the person offering the sacrifice had to identify with the animal. Third, the person offering the animal had to inflict death upon it. When done in faith, this sacrifice provided a temporary covering of sins. Another sacrifice called for on the Day of Atonement, described in Leviticus 16, demonstrates forgiveness and the removal of sin. The high priest was to take two male goats for a sin offering. One of the goats was sacrificed as a sin offering for the people of Israel (Leviticus 16:15), while the other goat was released into the wilderness (Leviticus 16:20-22). The sin offering provided forgiveness, while the other goat provided the removal of sin.
Why, then, do we no longer offer animal sacrifices today? Animal sacrifices have ended because Jesus Christ was the ultimate and perfect sacrifice. John the Baptist recognized this when he saw Jesus coming to be baptized and said, “Look, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). You may be asking yourself, why animals? What did they do wrong? That is the point—since the animals did no wrong, they died in place of the one performing the sacrifice. Jesus Christ also did no wrong but willingly gave Himself to die for the sins of mankind (1 Timothy 2:6). Jesus Christ took our sin upon Himself and died in our place. As 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “God made him [Jesus] who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” Through faith in what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross, we can receive forgiveness.
In summation, animal sacrifices were commanded by God so that the individual could experience forgiveness of sin. The animal served as a substitute—that is, the animal died in place of the sinner, but only temporarily, which is why the sacrifices needed to be offered over and over. Animal sacrifices have stopped with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrificial substitute once for all time (Hebrews 7:27) and is now the only mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5). Animal sacrifices foreshadowed Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf. The only basis on which an animal sacrifice could provide forgiveness of sins is Christ who would sacrifice Himself for our sins, providing the forgiveness that animal sacrifices could only illustrate and foreshadow.
http://www.gotquestions.org/animal-sacrifices.html
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17 NASB)
Amen
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17 NASB)
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WildB
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Genesis 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Genesis 35:14 And Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he talked with him, even a pillar of stone: and he poured a drink offering thereon, and he poured oil thereon.
Water of the Word, oil of the Spirit.
We all know who the Stone be....
Thank-you LordGod of Israel.
May your Spirit always
reside till the day
of redemption.
Amen.....
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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Bloodbought
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Yes Carol,
The difference is in the "oil."
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Edit. Just noticed this is my 666 post, the mark of the beast. He would like to rob us of the oil.
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Carol Swenson
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Amen Bloodbought!
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full." (John 15:1-11 NASB)
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Do you believe that Stam is right when he says that "works" were required for salvation under other dispensations? If your answer is "yes" then how do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to others who lived in another dispensation?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Jesus also said:
Matthew 19 (NASB)
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Luke 10 (NASB)
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”
Also, it seems obvious to me that Noah had to build the arc, Abraham had to travel where God led him and wait for the promised child, Moses had to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, and David had to become king. These "works" led to the promised Messiah. They are just a few examples of God's people. They each already had a relationship with God, but their works were important and necessary to the salvation of us all.
Very well explained. Thank you.
OT believers, as you say,"They each already had a relationship with God, but their works were important and necessary to the salvation of us all." I would just like to add to that and say, it is exactly the same with NT believers. Each one of us who has a relationship with God has a work to do for the extension of the kingdom. Anyone who claims to have faith and does nothing for the extension of the kingdom his faith is dead. His faith is no different than the faith of devils. Works produced by saving faith are required and always have been required for salvation. To say that this has only been the case in other dispensations causes confusion. Every true believer is led by the spirit to do a work for God.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Do you believe that Stam is right when he says that "works" were required for salvation under other dispensations? If your answer is "yes" then how do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to others who lived in another dispensation?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Jesus also said:
Matthew 19 (NASB)
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Luke 10 (NASB)
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”
Also, it seems obvious to me that Noah had to build the arc, Abraham had to travel where God led him and wait for the promised child, Moses had to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, and David had to become king. These "works" led to the promised Messiah. They are just a few examples of God's people. They each already had a relationship with God, but their works were important and necessary to the salvation of us all.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
But remember
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
You left out one of the "works" which you say was necessary for salvation for those living in the prior dispensation--submitting to the rite of water baptism.
If that work was required then why would the Lord Jesus make it plain that all that was required then was faith?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
How do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus told a woman that it was her faith that saved her?:
"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).
You wrong.
Put your nogin cap on now.
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
It says ON HIM that sent, THE FATHER. Its much different than...
IN Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross who was sent by Him the Father to do.
Reason this out.
One. Christ, while breathing air on the earth after being born of a virgin and fulfilling the Law and the Prophets addressing Israel, in the flesh and blood.
The other after Death, burial, and Resurrection. For ALL HAVE SINNED!
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Here Jerry I will do this only once for ya.
"believed in Jesus Christ" from Galatians 2:16
"on him that sent me" from Jn.5:23,24
Difference Between IN and ON
http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-in-and-on/
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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Jerry, that has been answered. I'm not going to post everything I've said again. Just read what everyone has posted and you'll have your answers.
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
Jerry, you really should try to keep up.
Carol, I just want a staright answer. Earlier I said:
Do you believe that Stam is right when he says that "works" were required for salvation under other dispensations? If your answer is "yes" then how do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to others who lived in another dispensation?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Thanks!
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
But remember
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
You left out one of the "works" which you say was necessary for salvation for those living in the prior dispensation--submitting to the rite of water baptism.
If that work was required then why would the Lord Jesus make it plain that all that was required then was faith?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
How do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus told a woman that it was her faith that saved her?:
"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
Yes, it would be REALLY nice if Jerry would come off his I-don't-like-this-so-I'm-going-to-be arrogant-throne, come out of his scared-of-us cave, and just start addressing the several comments we've made.
It is you who is sitting on an arrogant throne, not me. Only those who are arrogant would dare make an accusation against others without giving any evidence at all to support that accusation.
Now for once perhaps you will actually contribute to the subject of this discussion. Do you believe that Stam is right when he says that "works" were required for salvation under other dispensations? If your answer is "yes" then how do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to others who lived in another dispensation?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Thanks!
Jerry, you really should try to keep up.
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
Yes, it would be REALLY nice if Jerry would come off his I-don't-like-this-so-I'm-going-to-be arrogant-throne, come out of his scared-of-us cave, and just start addressing the several comments we've made.
It is you who is sitting on an arrogant throne, not me. Only those who are arrogant would dare make an accusation against others without giving any evidence at all to support that accusation.
Now for once perhaps you will actually contribute to the subject of this discussion. Do you believe that Stam is right when he says that "works" were required for salvation under other dispensations? If your answer is "yes" then how do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus said the following to others who lived in another dispensation?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Thanks!
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The only way people can be saved from God’s wrath is through God’s grace (Eph. 2:8-9); but grace isn’t God’s reward for a good life: it’s God’s response to saving faith. “By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household” (Heb. 11:7, NKJV). True faith involves the whole of the inner person: the mind understands God’s warning, the heart fears for what is coming, and the will acts in obedience to God’s Word.
To understand God’s truth but not act upon it is not biblical faith; it’s only intellectual assent to religious truth. To be emotionally aroused without comprehending God’s message isn’t faith, because true faith is based on an understanding of the truth (Matt. 13:18-23). To have the mind enlightened and the heart stirred but not act in obedience to the message is not faith, for “faith without works is dead” (James 2:14-26). The mind, heart, and will are all involved in true biblical faith.
Everybody who has ever been saved from sin has been saved “by grace, through faith,” and this includes the Old Testament worthies listed in Hebrews 11. Nobody was ever saved by bringing a sacrifice (Heb. 10:1-4; Ps. 51:16-17), by keeping the Law (Gal. 2:16), or by doing good works (Rom. 4:5). Salvation is a gracious gift that can be rejected or received by faith. Like Noah, we must all “find grace in the eyes of the Lord” (Gen. 6:8).
(Wiersbe)
Amen,
I like clear teaching quotes from "Wiersbe."
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
JERRY MISQUOTED STAM BY LEAVING OFF HALF OF STAM'S PARAGRAPH AND THEREBY CHANGED THE MEANING OF WHAT STAM SAID!
Do I need to "demonstrate" that 2 + 2 = 4?
The subject is not arithmetic but instead the written words of Cornelius Stam. Earlier you quoted the following:
quote:
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph
How did my not quoting the bolded part change the meaning of what is said in the paragraph?
Is Stam not teaching that "in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation"? That is exactly the meaning that I gave to what Stam wrote so it is beyond me how you can say that I changed Stam's meaning.
As regards the part that I did not quote I addressed that in my opening post. Stam said:
"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations."
The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).
Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. Now let us look at what he said at another place, the place where you accuse me of misrepresenting what he wrote:
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value."
Again, in my initial post I demonstrated that when Stam wrote that "Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value" he was wrong. That is because if works are required they are essential for salvation so it is wrong for him to say that "works" never had any saving value.
If "works" were required and essential for salvation then they do indeed have a saving value.
This is as easy to understand as two plus two equals four.
quote:
If "works" were required and essential for salvation then they do indeed have a saving value.
ONLY Christ can save! Our works are as filthy rags unless they are led by and empowered by His Holy Spirit! Not one single person in the Old Testament was able to obey perfectly; everyone of them sinned! Only Christ lived a sinless life. It was their faith that God valued. Their works were required to move God's plan of redemption forward, but their personal salvation was not based on their works.
Jerry, Jerry, you know this!
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodbought:
However, why does he say, "Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation," when it is clear that works were not required for salvation?
Good question!
It is not difficult to understand why WildB continues to refuse to address the following words of the Lord Jesus where He makes it plain that those under the law did not have to do works in order to be saved;
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
But remember
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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That is all.....
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WildB
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posted
Jerry,
Answer your own sillyness.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Also why did David say this?
Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
But Paul this...?
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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That is all.....
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodbought:
However, why does he say, "Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation," when it is clear that works were not required for salvation?
Good question!
It is not difficult to understand why WildB continues to refuse to address the following words of the Lord Jesus where He makes it plain that those under the law did not have to do works in order to be saved;
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
you said nothing that demonstrates that the part which I did not quote changed the meaning of what Stam wrote.
You have said nothing that supports your accusation. Where I grew up if someone makes accusations against someone else then that person must give the evidence to support that accusation.
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
You're in denial. You should have that looked at.
quote:
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
Prove it. LOL
Ditto! Big C this one is not here to fellowship or learn but try to lord over with his shell game.
He has already moved the pee from the part quote from Stam to the middle shell of the verily verily?
Yes, it would be REALLY nice if Jerry would come off his I-don't-like-this-so-I'm-going-to-be arrogant-throne, come out of his scared-of-us cave, and just start addressing the several comments we've made. This is good stuff actually.
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Jerry Shugart
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quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
JERRY MISQUOTED STAM BY LEAVING OFF HALF OF STAM'S PARAGRAPH AND THEREBY CHANGED THE MEANING OF WHAT STAM SAID!
Do I need to "demonstrate" that 2 + 2 = 4?
The subject is not arithmetic but instead the written words of Cornelius Stam. Earlier you quoted the following:
quote:
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph
How did my not quoting the bolded part change the meaning of what is said in the paragraph?
Is Stam not teaching that "in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation"? That is exactly the meaning that I gave to what Stam wrote so it is beyond me how you can say that I changed Stam's meaning.
As regards the part that I did not quote I addressed that in my opening post. Stam said:
"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations."
The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).
Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. Now let us look at what he said at another place, the place where you accuse me of misrepresenting what he wrote:
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value."
Again, in my initial post I demonstrated that when Stam wrote that "Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value" he was wrong. That is because if works are required they are essential for salvation so it is wrong for him to say that "works" never had any saving value.
If "works" were required and essential for salvation then they do indeed have a saving value.
This is as easy to understand as two plus two equals four.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
you said nothing that demonstrates that the part which I did not quote changed the meaning of what Stam wrote.
You have said nothing that supports your accusation. Where I grew up if someone makes accusations against someone else then that person must give the evidence to support that accusation.
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
You're in denial. You should have that looked at.
quote:
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
Prove it. LOL
Ditto! Big C this one is not here to fellowship or learn but try to lord over with his shell game.
He has already moved the pee from the part quote from Stam to the middle shell of the verily verily?
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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The only way people can be saved from God’s wrath is through God’s grace (Eph. 2:8-9); but grace isn’t God’s reward for a good life: it’s God’s response to saving faith. “By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household” (Heb. 11:7, NKJV). True faith involves the whole of the inner person: the mind understands God’s warning, the heart fears for what is coming, and the will acts in obedience to God’s Word.
To understand God’s truth but not act upon it is not biblical faith; it’s only intellectual assent to religious truth. To be emotionally aroused without comprehending God’s message isn’t faith, because true faith is based on an understanding of the truth (Matt. 13:18-23). To have the mind enlightened and the heart stirred but not act in obedience to the message is not faith, for “faith without works is dead” (James 2:14-26). The mind, heart, and will are all involved in true biblical faith.
Everybody who has ever been saved from sin has been saved “by grace, through faith,” and this includes the Old Testament worthies listed in Hebrews 11. Nobody was ever saved by bringing a sacrifice (Heb. 10:1-4; Ps. 51:16-17), by keeping the Law (Gal. 2:16), or by doing good works (Rom. 4:5). Salvation is a gracious gift that can be rejected or received by faith. Like Noah, we must all “find grace in the eyes of the Lord” (Gen. 6:8).
(Wiersbe)
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
Can you expound what Mr Stam means? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Big C already did ,
Let's look at the whole section of Stam's book that this debate is based on.
THE PRINCIPLES OF GOD
A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right, whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so than in any other age. In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these principles.
The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace?
You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed?
The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6:
Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3).
David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6).
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Rom. 4:5).
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.
Thank you,
We seem to be going round this in circles for clarification.
However, why does he say, "Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation," when it is clear that works were not required for salvation?
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Carol Swenson
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JERRY MISQUOTED STAM BY LEAVING OFF HALF OF STAM'S PARAGRAPH AND THEREBY CHANGED THE MEANING OF WHAT STAM SAID!
Do I need to "demonstrate" that 2 + 2 = 4?
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
What He made plain, at least to some of us, is that works depend on faith. He certainly never taught faith without works.
No one said anything that even hints that works do not depend on faith. The subject is whether or not "works" were required for salvation in other dispensations.
quote:
You're in denial. You should have that looked at.
Is that all you can say in response to my request for you to support your accusations against me?
How did the part which I did not quote change the meaning of what Stam wrote?
Your refusal to answer demonstrates that all you did was to make a false accusation against me even though you had no evidence to support that false accusation.
It is easy to make accusations against those with whom you do not agree but it is an entirely different thing to back up that accusation with facts.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
you said nothing that demonstrates that the part which I did not quote changed the meaning of what Stam wrote.
You have said nothing that supports your accusation. Where I grew up if someone makes accusations against someone else then that person must give the evidence to support that accusation.
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
You're in denial. You should have that looked at.
quote:
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
Prove it. LOL
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
If "works" of one kind or another were required for salvation for those who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus make it plain that only faith was required?
John 5:18 - 24 (NASB)
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
What He made plain, at least to some of us, is that works depend on faith. He certainly never taught faith without works, or works without faith.
James 2:26 (NASB)
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
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Jerry Shugart
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quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
you said nothing that demonstrates that the part which I did not quote changed the meaning of what Stam wrote.
You have said nothing that supports your accusation. Where I grew up if someone makes accusations against someone else then that person must give the evidence to support that accusation.
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
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Jerry Shugart
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quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Answer your own sillyness.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
You continue to play games by avoiding addressing the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24. To show that I am not playing games I will address the verse which you quoted:
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).
Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).
Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved. Those who believe will submit to the rite of water baptism and those who do not believe will not submit to that rite:
"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him" (Lk.7:29-30).
John D. Grassmick writes, "Though the New Testament writers generally assume that under normal circumstances each believer will be baptized, 16:16 does not mean that baptism is a necessary requirement for personal salvation. The second half of the verse indicates by contrast that one who does not believe the gospel will be condemned by God (implied) in the day of final judgment (cf. 9:43-48). The basis for condemnation is unbelief, not the lack of any ritual observance...Thus the only requirement for personally appropriating God's salvation is faith in Him" (Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], p.196).
Now that I have answered the verse which you quoted then please answer what the Lord Jesus said here which demonstrates that "works" were not required for salvation for those who lived under the law:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
If "works" of one kind or another were required for salvation for those who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus make it plain that only faith was required?
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
Can you expound what Mr Stam means?
Big C already did ,
Let's look at the whole section of Stam's book that this debate is based on.
THE PRINCIPLES OF GOD
A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right, whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so than in any other age. In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these principles.
The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace?
You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed?
The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6:
Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3).
David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6).
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Rom. 4:5).
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.
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That is all.....
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
Can you expound what Mr Stam means?
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
First of all, if you are going to make an accusation like that against me then back it up. Tell me exactly where I misquoted Stam's book.
"Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
I posted the whole section of Stam's book that you quoted from. If taken in context, there are no contradictions. If you insist on taking things out of context, then you can make almost anything contradict itself.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
[QUOTE]
If "works" were required or essential for salvation for those who lived under the law then how could it be said that David's salvation was "without works"?
If you do not think that Stam contradicted himself then please answer my question.
Thanks!
Answer your own sillyness.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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That is all.....
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
Yes I did read the OP, thus my comments. If you had read all of my posts on this thread then you would not be asking me that question.
Yes, but here is what you said about my opening post:
quote:
Judging by the OP, it looks like this whole debate is based on Jerry misquoting Stam's book to make it look as if Stam is contradicting himself.
First of all, if you are going to make an accusation like that against me then back it up. Tell me exactly where I misquoted Stam's book.
Next, after you do that let us look at what Stam did write to see if he contradicted himself or not:
At one place he wrote:
David lived under the law. How was he justified? 'David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works' (Rom. 4:6)"
Here we can see that Stam quotes a verse which shows that a person (David) who lived under the law was justified "without works."
But he contradicts himself here when he says that works were "required" for salvation for those under other dispensations which would include the dispensation of the law:
Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations."
If "works" were required or essential for salvation for those who lived under the law then how could it be said that David's salvation was "without works"?
If you do not think that Stam contradicted himself then please answer my question.
Thanks!
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
Carol,
You said:
"Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
I left that out but if you will go to the initial post on this thread his idea there is throughly refuted?
Did you even read that initial post?
Do you think that "works" in earlier dispensations are "essential" for salvation?
Yes I did read the OP, thus my comments. If you had read all of my posts on this thread then you would not be asking me that question.
Stam said works were required. As I've already pointed out, Abraham and David were not saved when God chose them; both had to live in faith and obedience to God, doing difficult and challenging things, but actual salvation did not come until after Christ's crucifixion, and was still the gift of God, not earned but because of faith. Noah, Moses, the prophets...all the OT saints were chosen to work for God, but none of them had "received salvation" when they were chosen. They obeyed because of their FAITH.
In this dispensation, we do receive salvation first, by grace through faith in Christ, before we do work for God according to the gifts of service the Holy Spirit gives us.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Jerry,
I've already done that.
Jerry is playing the old shell game with his razzle dazzle of moving the shells/text around then tricks one into trying to pick the shell with the pee under it. Only with this type of shell game, THE SOULS of the BASEBALL FANS are at stake.
Read the info below from a web site that Jerry already has played, before you feed into any more of this sillyness that takes away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007823
Go to the actual site where the debate was done.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13451
Debate is good, but known deception and the twisting/corrupting of text to fix the shell game for SOULs is NOT EDIFYING NOR DOES IT MINISTER GRACE. All it ministers and maintains is confusion.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication/(postings) proceed out of your mouth(keyboard), but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers(baseball fans).
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
YOU DID NOT POST ,"I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews "
YOU POSTED, That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"
No mention of Jews. You only mentioned Abraham and David ?
The subject under discussion was how the Jews who lived under the law were saved. That is why I quoted what Stam wrote here and how David entered the discussion:
"David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6)" (Stam, [I]Things That Differ, p.16).
Since the subject is in regard to how the Jews who lived under the law were saved then perhaps you will finally address the following words of the Lord Jesus which were spoken to the Jews who lived under the law?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
If "works" of one kind or another were required for salvation for those who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus make it plain that only faith was required?
quote:
Jerry is playing the old shell game with his razzle dazzle of moving the shells/text around then tricks one into trying to pick the shell with the pee under it. Only with this type of shell game, THE SOULS of the BASEBALL FANS are at stake.
It is you who is playing games as evidenced by just how far you are willing to go in order to avoid actually addressing the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24.
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
Carol,
You said:
"Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
I left that out but if you will go to the initial post on this thread his idea there is throughly refuted?
Did you even read that initial post?
Do you think that "works" in earlier dispensations are "essential" for salvation?
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
I think Jerry misunderstands what Stam wrote, and he certainly did not quote Stam fairly.
Please be specific and tell me exactly how I did not quote Stam fairly.
In my initial post on this thread I did in fact address what he said here:
"yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value."
Since Stam said that "works" were required for salvation then those works were "essential" for salvation. So it makes no sense to say that the works were essential but at the same time that they never had any saving value.
quote:
Judging by the OP, it looks like this whole debate is based on Jerry misquoting Stam's book to make it look as if Stam is contradicting himself.
Go back to my initial post and please tell me how I misquoted Stam and tell me what I said that is error when I proved that Stam did indeed contradict himself.
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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Carol Swenson
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posted
This is confusing. WildB knows we are saved by grace through faith, Bloodbought knows it, and I know it, and Jerry seems to know it too, and teach it. And he teaches that in past dispensations, as now, God's people were saved by grace through faith.
They were required to build an arc, or travel to a distant land and wait on God's promised child and then sacrifice that child (almost), or lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, or slay a giant and become a king. But all of these works were based on their faith and trust in God.
The Apostles were chosen by Christ and appointed to certain "works". Paul was appointed by Christ to be the Apostle to the gentiles and appointed to certain "works". The works did not save them though; on the contrary, in this dispensation and in those past, the works were accomplished BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.
So if we all agree, what are we debating exactly?
Judging by the OP, it looks like this whole debate is based on Jerry misquoting Stam's book to make it look as if Stam is contradicting himself.
Let's look at the whole section of Stam's book that this debate is based on.
THE PRINCIPLES OF GOD
A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right, whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so than in any other age. In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these principles.
The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace?
You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed?
The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6:
Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3).
David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6).
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Rom. 4:5).
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.
I think Jerry misunderstands what Stam wrote, and he certainly did not quote Stam fairly.
Was Abram saved when God first spoke to him in Haran? Was the shepherd boy David saved when God first chose him to be the next king? Did any of the OT saints receive salvation before God appointed them to work for Him? No, they were required to live in faith and obedience to God without having been regenerated. But while their works were required for God's purpose, they obeyed because of their faith.
None of the OT saints received salvation until Christ was crucified, descended into Hades to Abraham's Bosom, and redeemed them. Only the imputed righteousness of Christ could make them righteous enough to receive eternal life and rise to Heaven.
But what do we do before salvation? We don't work for God, we live in sin. Any works based salvation is forbidden to us; our works are "filthy rags". It is after our regeneration that we are given work to do for God. Yet for both OT saints and us, actual salvation, eternal life, is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
 Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph.
Isn't it still saying that "in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation,"? [/QB]
Jerry is playing the old shell game with his razzle dazzle of moving the shells/text around then tricks one into trying to pick the shell with the pee under it. Only with this type of shell game, THE SOULS of the BASEBALL FANS are at stake.
Read the info below from a web site that Jerry already has played, before you feed into any more of this sillyness that takes away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007823
Go to the actual site where the debate was done.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13451
Debate is good, but known deception and the twisting/corrupting of text to fix the shell game for SOULs is NOT EDIFYING NOR DOES IT MINISTER GRACE. All it ministers and maintains is confusion.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication/(postings) proceed out of your mouth(keyboard), but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers(baseball fans).
--------------------
That is all.....
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Bloodbought
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph. [/QB]
Isn't it still saying that "in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation,"?
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
All you are doing is showing that Stam contradicts himself on this subject.
Let us examine Stam's own teaching in regard to the salvation of David, a man who lived under the Law, to see if "works" were required for salvation:
"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.17).
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
Here is" Things that Differ" in total , unedited.
http://www.dovhost.com/grace-books/StamI13.pdf
Now lets be Bereans and see if what you say is so.
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Then you replied.
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
NOT TO THE PEOPLE YOU SAY HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS TO.
I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews who were under the law. And that is exactly the people to which He was speaking:
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them...Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:18-19,24).
quote:
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
Yes, that is my site.
YOU DID NOT POST ,"I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews "
YOU POSTED, That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"
No mention of Jews. You only mentioned Abraham and David ?
"In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works"
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That is all.....
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